It's LEFTYPOL TIME

Asher Garcia
Asher Garcia

it's LEFTYPOL TIME.

what have you done to help the revolution today?

All urls found in this thread:
http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/bolshevik_revolution/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POqw0rIJe78
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJJduZlWLUQ
https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/c/a.htm#capitalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAIRU
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_army_of_labour
http://www.globalresearch.ca/capitalism-and-global-poverty-two-billion-poor-one-billion-hungry/5393262
http://www.fightbacknews.org/2012/10/1/child-malnutrition-eliminated-cuba-us-nearly-quarter-children-hungry
https://gowans.wordpress.com/2012/12/21/do-publicly-owned-planned-economies-work/
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Cuban-Life-Expectancy-Among-the-Highest-in-World-at-78.45-Years-20150526-0011.html
https://gowans.wordpress.com/2013/12/23/seven-myths-about-the-ussr/
https://www.rt.com/politics/337183-sympathy-for-stalin-among-russians/
https://www.rt.com/politics/340158-most-russians-regret-ussr-has/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdZp5iw-UEo
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/jd-sports-working-conditions-channel-4-minimum-wage-sports-direct-a7476366.html
Christopher Nguyen
Christopher Nguyen

let a black man have my wife

Leftypol all the way

Brandon Gonzalez
Brandon Gonzalez

Nigger.

Ayden Peterson
Ayden Peterson

What does leftypol think about niggers? Could we find a common ground in exterminating them?

Christopher Powell
Christopher Powell

Send my neigbours to gulag since they didint greet me in the morning

Oliver Carter
Oliver Carter

no we can't. we're humanists

Ryder Hughes
Ryder Hughes

'Money' is hot and blonde with big tits.

Really convinced me. Should have stuck with the fat white man with a cigar.

Caleb Green
Caleb Green

Southern slavery was funded by the jew
/pol/ supports dixies
Nazi germany was a way for the rothschilds throw working class jews under the bus so they themselves could get more power
/pol/supports this
Information that communism/socalism is "Jewish" despite zero evidence aside from very obvious plants of information
Right wingism supports the jewish way of life more and most right wingers in power are blatantly jewish supporting corporatism and less pay and calling it "conservatism"
/pol/supports this

Jason Rivera
Jason Rivera

Wall street jews funded the bolshevik revolution and basically industrialized the country.
http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/bolshevik_revolution/

Also dialectical materialism is pseudoscience. lmao

Nathan Ortiz
Nathan Ortiz

Also
doesnt believe in globalizing
all go to a single board and speak english with one another despite being from different countries

Jeremiah Bennett
Jeremiah Bennett

Remember guys.

Marxists ACTUALLY believe every single human emotion and behavior is the result of capitalism and if we simply change the "mode of production" people will dramatically change, making socialism possible.

It's like they have no fucking idea how evolution or the human brain works.

I can't believe these people even exist.

Brody Hernandez
Brody Hernandez

Fuck off my country you cunt.

Jose Watson
Jose Watson

Looks like we only agree on killing leftists then.

Nathan Martinez
Nathan Martinez

Why is only 1 worker doing the work of crashing the capitalist party?

What happened to the other workers?

Brayden Hall
Brayden Hall

made toothpaste angry

Andrew Sanchez
Andrew Sanchez

The jew told them to go to work and keep busy and dont think about them getting to do nothing else in life besides work for less.

Adam Scott
Adam Scott

BUT IT HASN'T BEEN TRIED IN THE RIGHT COUNTRIES

Christian Turner
Christian Turner

Physically Remove all Leftists

Jose Morris
Jose Morris

muh 10 trillion killed

Isaac Long
Isaac Long

Kek

Landon Miller
Landon Miller

I woke up before midday.

Go me! :)

Ian Martinez
Ian Martinez

Really makes ya think.

Nathaniel Thompson
Nathaniel Thompson

I'm in Sup Forums, so not like I expect any kind of intelligent discussion, but let's try.

It's like they have no fucking idea how evolution or the human brain works.

Ok. So evolution. We know evolution, we know how it works on large and also shorter scales of times. Humans are animals so humans are subject to evolution. Societies are constructed out of millions of humans, so in the end evolution is to explain society.

Now consider a ball rolling down a plane. We know that the ball is made out of molecules, which are made out of atoms, which are made out of electrons and nuclei, which eventually are made out of nucleons, which are made out of up and down quarks. We know the Standard Model, which up to these describes perfectly the elementary interactions of quarks and electrons. I can write in two lines the lagrangian which describe these interactions.

Technically, at least theoretically, we might (and I'm not even sure) write some kind of mega-lagrangian for the ball from its most elementary constituents. But we don't know how to solve that. We literally can't.

It's not only that we're killing flies with a cannon (which we are), is that we literally don't know how to make such a computation: going from the most elementary knowledge we know in Physics to a macroscopic ball, without making *approximations* and *assumptions*.

Because we have Chemistry, which is a whole field based on *approximating* elementary Physics.

So, back to evolution. If we are scientifically honest, we just CAN'T say that human societies are "explained" by evolution, just because we can't go from the ape to capitalism just via evolution being HONEST and Scientific about it. We need to make assumptions, approximations, to go from the material conditions of existence of humans to an EFFECTIVE THEORY of Society.

Now, maybe you don't like Marxism as an effective theory of society made of individuals. You clearly don't understand shit about it, but that's ok.

Luke Williams
Luke Williams

(continues)
But PLEASE, don't come with the "we know how evolution and brain works and sheit" because it's just not honest scientifically. Come with a different model of macroscopic human relationships, but don't include natural science at this level because it's complete bullshit.

Holy shit what a fucking wall of text.

Ethan Myers
Ethan Myers

kys lefty

Andrew Thomas
Andrew Thomas

this fuckin nigga overthinking everything
this fuckin nigga denying human instincts

Thomas Flores
Thomas Flores

What revolution?

Jordan Williams
Jordan Williams

Technically, at least theoretically, we might (and I'm not even sure) write some kind of mega-lagrangian for the ball from its most elementary constituents. But we don't know how to solve that. We literally can't.
It's not only that we're killing flies with a cannon (which we are), is that we literally don't know how to make such a computation: going from the most elementary knowledge we know in Physics to a macroscopic ball, without making *approximations* and *assumptions*.
Okay.
What does this have to do with the marxist denial of human instincts(extremely well established science) and the marxist denial of neuroscience(extremely well established science)?

Do you think you are not your brain or something?

we just CAN'T say that human societies are "explained" by evolution
Yes we can, there's an entire field that does this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology

just because we can't go from the ape to capitalism just via evolution being HONEST and Scientific about it.
It's not just evolution. Culture and how human children are raised definitely plays a big role.

You clearly don't understand shit about it
Yes, yes I do.

Daniel Fisher
Daniel Fisher

Not overthinking. Just literally thinking. Explaining everything by muh instincts is not only pure ideology, it's just like claiming we understand completely the brain because it works via electric currents and we understand Quantum Electrodynamics. Not saying impulses don't play a role, but we need to start the study from a top-bottom approach, not the other way around, because we literally don't know how to do the bottom-top approach.

Lucas Phillips
Lucas Phillips

revolution cancelled mom took away my allowance

Evan Harris
Evan Harris

You ever want to feel the feel of winning?

Ethan Taylor
Ethan Taylor

not sure you wanna be using that image 2bh OP

Ayden Foster
Ayden Foster

pure ideology
AHAHAHAH
OH WOW IT'S A ZIZEK LOVING MARXIST THAT THINKS HIS IDEOLOGY ISN'T AN IDEOLOGY

it's just like claiming we understand completely the brain
we don't understand it completely
We understand it enough to KNOW HOW it developed human cultures.

because it works via electric currents and we understand Quantum Electrodynamics.
What does this have to do with anything?
We know the brain is a complex computer which behaves in a certain way.

because we literally don't know how to do the bottom-top approach.
People are already doing this lmao.
Marxism is a joke.

Grayson Gonzalez
Grayson Gonzalez

Marxists ACTUALLY believe every single human emotion and behavior is the result of capitalism and if we simply change the "mode of production" people will dramatically change, making socialism possible.
Yes, yes I do.
Maybe some retard Marxists thinks that way, but definetly not Marx and definetly not any kind of smart Marxist. At least since Gramsci with the concept of hegemony, the simplistic view "change of structure=>change of superstructure" is not accepted anymore.

Yes we can, there's an entire field that does this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology
Good for them. In Psychology as a field you're gonna find all possibilities, including people claiming to be able to do this step. And, in any case, this is the step from evolution as humans to *Psychology*, so to the formation of individuals. Even if we understood completely the brain (not denying neuroscience, nobody does, and does who do are retards), that doesn't mean we can imply from there how a society of millions work. There are emergent effects. I don't think it's hard to get.
just because we can't go from the ape to capitalism just via evolution being HONEST and Scientific about it.
It's not just evolution. Culture and how human children are raised definitely plays a big role.
But why deny that other material conditions, like literally the way we produce the means to live, might play a role which might be even bigger than those, and definetly would have a strong influence on how culture and the way kids are raised is established? Not saying it's a deterministic theory (other kind of retard Marxism), but it just looks from a naïf point of view much more relevant than evolution, mainly because the production system works on time scales which are by far closer to human time scales than evolution.

Joseph Perez
Joseph Perez

Compulsory leftypol reading material.

Jaxson Wright
Jaxson Wright

We did and it overcame us.
Now were pros in losing and self loathing.

Isaac Jackson
Isaac Jackson

Eh.
MORE?!?

Jason Lewis
Jason Lewis

Of course Marxism is an ideology. Jesus Christ.

What does this have to do with anything?
We know the brain is a complex computer which behaves in a certain way.

Yes. But we don't try to explain it from its more basic constituents, because we wouldn't be fucking able to solve it. I'm claiming that trying to explain society and its changes from how the human brain and evolution functions is a similar thing: we need approximations and assumptions in order to make any sense out of it, at least for the moment.

People are already doing this lmao.

Good, of course, we need to get there eventually. But we haven't. By far. Up to this moment it mostly only serves as an a posteriori justification of liberalism. That's what I mean by "pure ideology": not by saying Marxism is out of ideology (that would be retarded), but by saying that the use of science in this kind of debates is used only for an ideological justification purpose.

Julian Rodriguez
Julian Rodriguez

jk i love germany and its a shame war had to happen. and its a shame islam is destroying your nation and culture. and yes this is coming from a leftie/socalist.
Islam is bad news for you guys.

Michael Martin
Michael Martin

I am trying to REDpill people.

Gabriel Turner
Gabriel Turner

but definetly not Marx
Absolutely marx believed this shit. It's what dialectical materialism was all about.

Gramsci
Embarrassing.

the simplistic view "change of structure=>change of superstructure" is not accepted anymore.
Countless marxists still believe this.

that doesn't mean we can imply from there how a society of millions work.
Evolutionary psychology is just one tool of learning how society was formed and functions today.

like literally the way we produce the means to live, might play a role
It probably plays a small role but doesn't change humans much. People in the USSR and maoist china were just as greedy. You can't change human nature.

and definetly would have a strong influence on how culture and the way kids are raised is established?
How exactly?

Lucas Lopez
Lucas Lopez

HAs been since the 50s.
Thats when your country started to force us to start this fucking guest worker programm with thousands over thousands of anatolian mountain turks.

if you saw pics of cologne or düsseldorf or Bonn from the 60s or 70s. and compare them to now, completly different places. Doesnt look really german anymore except a few old buildings that werent bombed to rubble.

Wyatt Morales
Wyatt Morales

i thought about ways why french should still exist - to keep the revolution alive.

city of lights, paris - yeah, suck on my dick.

Angel Taylor
Angel Taylor

has no problem with murdering 150 million people
it suddenly becomes an issue if the victims are exclusively black

Commies everyone

Tyler Myers
Tyler Myers

Wrote 12 hatemails to left wing politicians and journalist.
Called the Caritas and yelled for half an hour at different call center slaves about how they are traitors.
On the way to the get some food I spit on a hadji kid and said it is worth nothing.
Match me

Aaron Price
Aaron Price

But we don't try to explain it from its more basic constituents, because we wouldn't be fucking able to solve it.
No shit.

I'm claiming that trying to explain society and its changes from how the human brain and evolution functions is a similar thing
But you'd be wrong. Trying to explain how the things like emotion and cognition work by only using concepts like subatomic particles and energy is retarded.
Trying to understand how society works by how we know the brain works is much simpler than that and is very helpful.

You know what is retarded though, trying to explain society though dumb concepts like "classes".

But we haven't. By far.
We've done a far better job doing it this way than marxism has.
Marxism is a joke and fails to explain everything. Why do they get it wrong all of the time?

but by saying that the use of science in this kind of debates is used only for an ideological justification purpose.
This is bad why?

Jonathan Barnes
Jonathan Barnes

Gramsci
Embarrassing.
It probably plays a small role but doesn't change humans much. People in the USSR and maoist china were just as greedy. You can't change human nature.

Err, it's ok that you don't like Gramsci, but that was the point of cultural hegemony. Maybe you disagree with the analysis, or might say that it's all bullshit and still everything is cause by human nature, but it's there.

Countless marxists still believe this.

Well, that's their problem. And the problem of big chunks of the left still (although I'd say that nowadays most of the cancer of some """leftists""" is the contrary, believing that we can just change ideology without changing material conditions - as do liberal faggots in USA).

How exactly?

Say the Neolithic. When people stopped being nomads and established in a single place, social interactions and structures changed and were born because of the change in production, which now was through agriculture. I think you will agree, and it's not a complicated example.

Charles Collins
Charles Collins

Trust me even as a leftie i see this.
dont at all support it.

Nathan Howard
Nathan Howard

I paid my taxes: a portion of which will be given to some nigger's children because their mother cannot work and they've never met their father.

Ian Anderson
Ian Anderson

what have you done to help the revolution today?

Helping to debunk communism and teaching people that a right wing transitional dictatorship and eventual free market, free society capitalism is the best path to human advancement.

Tough job (and I do it for free) but I keep saving 1 soul at a time. I day at a time.

Asher Roberts
Asher Roberts

I imagine the blonde chick doing me with a strap on. Am I doing it right?

Thomas Cruz
Thomas Cruz

Reminder that Marx was a jobless Jew fag loser

Thomas Parker
Thomas Parker

Trying to understand how society works by how we know the brain works is much simpler than that and is very helpful.

You know what is retarded though, trying to explain society though dumb concepts like "classes".

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. This is the debate. A debate about predictions, not a posteriori justifications.

This is bad why?

I re-state: scientific facts are thrown in sociological and economical debates as if explaining things, when what is being done is extrapolate individual behaviours to sociological ones.

Luke Rogers
Luke Rogers

Im a nixion puppet
gib me money usa

James Peterson
James Peterson

Are you economically left or socially left? I am ecomically left so I want to close borders. The Alt Right have far more in common with economic leftism these days.

Bentley Martin
Bentley Martin

When people stopped being nomads and established in a single place, social interactions and structures changed and were born because of the change in production

People act different when situations change. People will do what benefits them. What does this have to do with anything? This concept doesn't only apply to "material conditions".

The fact you can jump from this to thinking socialism/communism will magically turn humans into selfless people that share everything is hilariously retarded.

Cooper Green
Cooper Green

Same thing we do every day, Pinkstein. Subvert the goyim.

Justin Lopez
Justin Lopez

EAT SHIT AND DIE UNTERMENSCH!

Connor King
Connor King

Haven't seen a funny commieball in a long time. Here's a (you), user.

Adrian Roberts
Adrian Roberts

scientific facts are thrown in sociological and economical debates as if explaining things
But they do explain things.

Human instincts and emotions explain a lot about society.

Marxism can't explain society and gets it wrong all of the time.

Jacob Price
Jacob Price

See, just more proof jews hate communism because it causes them to lose control. smfh

Jeremiah King
Jeremiah King

dirty rightwingers trying to inject science into my discussion about marxist sociology

Adam Russell
Adam Russell

People act different when situations change.

People will do what benefits them.

Have you read "The Great Transformation" by Karl Polanyi? Honest question, I think it's very interesting, and the guy it's not exactly a Marxist. Some of the first chapters are devoted to analyze anthropological findings to fight this "people will do what benefits" them idea. At least understood as people being just greedy; of course people are not gonna be suicidial or anything, but still.

The fact you can jump from this to thinking socialism/communism will magically turn humans into selfless people that share everything is hilariously retarded.

I agree. Of course. And it's extremely important to know it. I guess you also know that in Leninism, Socialism is a mid-step towards Communism. I mean, again, you can laugh at this idea and not like it, that's ok, but don't make dialectical tricks. If we were to have a (real) socialist society tomorrow somewhere, people will have *exactly* the same behaviours as nowadays. Or even worse because of some crisis, or war, or shit. But communism is a classless society. People wouldn't be self-less, and people wouldn't share everything. But >we consider that many things would be better, yes.

Again, you might not agree with the idea, and just laugh and meme at it, but come on.

Bentley Myers
Bentley Myers

jews hate communism because it causes them to lose control
This level of delusion... Keep it up, comrade.

William Edwards
William Edwards

Well, I'm a Particle Phycisist, so in general I run from most people when they throw >Science at me, unless they're experts on the field.

Nathaniel Morgan
Nathaniel Morgan

Are you stupid? Capitalism is the result of every single human emotion and behavior. It's why it works so well and why socialism and communism will never work.

Jordan King
Jordan King

When capitalism gave you your jewish state and you benefit most of capitalism
When you have right wingers fooled using reverse phycology
comrade stallin would of never let the west get away with this....

Jackson Green
Jackson Green

But...in the USSR they thought they had socialism, and in the Eastern Block countries, for 70 years, their system was the result of every single human emotion and behaviour. the same way Capitalism in XVIII Manchester was.

I mean, a posteriori it's easy to say "lol they were so stupid", but don't you think that it's a bit weak as an argument?

Brody Wright
Brody Wright

i'm a scientist
i know a thing or two about science
so let me start off by rejecting arguments based on science with appeal to authority fallacies
Fucking gommies, I swear... your lack of self-awareness is a inexhaustible fountain of unintentional comedy.

Noah Barnes
Noah Barnes

XVIII century Manchester sorry.

Henry Allen
Henry Allen

Ok.

Leo Hughes
Leo Hughes

See goyem look at these made up people i'm claiming as jews!
silly goyem you better go right wing
stallins name meant "son of jew"
TRUST ME GOYEM!!

Austin Watson
Austin Watson

This is actually true in my country
There is a far right branch of politics called the "jobbik" which is filled with Jews faggots and the head is a coke addicted shitbag who doesn't even believe his own shit
Its sad

Adrian Watson
Adrian Watson

I mean, again, you can laugh at this idea and not like it, that's ok
I laugh at it because dialectical materialism is pseudoscience. Read the 2 images I posted.

But communism is a classless society.
It's hypothetical and impossible.

we consider that many things would be better, yes.
How would many things be better? The average persons material wealth would be much less than if they lived under a free market.

Why do you people think you will have more things like food, houses, cars, phones etc etc?

Are the capitalists magically preventing you from having it?

Benjamin Ross
Benjamin Ross

2/3 of abortions in US are black.
Margaret Sanger(founder, plannedparenthood) was a eugenicist
The left has more common ground on this point than you realize

Henry Torres
Henry Torres

You write all this scientific shit about the molecular structure of a ball and miss the most effectual human instinct pertaining to societal/economic structure: humans (as do all living creatures) instinctually wish to gain the most resources with the least effort. Any economic/societal structure which allows this to happen will fail. Capitalism works better than other structures because it rewards the most effort with the most resources.

"They pretend to pay us, we pretend to work" - Some Soviet worker before he became an incredibly poor Russian peasant.

Don't overthink it. Economics really isn't that complicated.

Henry Watson
Henry Watson

OY VEY GOYIM
GOOD GOY

Chase Fisher
Chase Fisher

Ok.
That's what I expected. "Scientists" like you unironically think that appeals to authority are valid logical arguments. Well, by your logic, everyone should reject your "sociological" arguments, because you're not a certified expert in social "science" arguments as far as anyone here knows.

Wyatt Allen
Wyatt Allen

That's the most stupid thing I've read in a while.
Thank you for the chuckle.

Samuel Gutierrez
Samuel Gutierrez

denial of human instincts

I think if most people here on Sup Forums just followed their instincts they'd be in jail by now.

Society>Instincts

Aiden Cook
Aiden Cook

Are the capitalists magically preventing you from having it?

Not magically. Structurally. For most people in the world. Yes.

We're not gonna agree from here, so it doesn't make sense to keep discussing.

Luke Ortiz
Luke Ortiz

Doesn't matter. Communism or socialism will never work. Humans are too short sighted and greedy and eventually someone in power will ruin it.

Joshua Ross
Joshua Ross

Usul, retourne dans ta chambre!

Charles Kelly
Charles Kelly

However every communist country has had a black market. As the free market is truly organic to human nature, the black market represents the free market when it is being repressed. Just as when the government tries to stop the exchange of sexual services for some form of payment, a black market of prostitution forms. Communism did not represent every human emotion and behavior. The soviet economists tried to anticipate the incentives of its population which is impossible to do as of yet.

Henry Brown
Henry Brown

implying it's untrue that a hugely disproportionate number of the revolutionaries in Russia were Jews
I'm not even sure if you're trolling or if I'm just witnessing the usual gommie ignorance.

Aaron Stewart
Aaron Stewart

you're not going to agree with my gommie assertions so it doesn't make sense to keep discussing
This is why gommies always have to resort to mass-scale murder and tyranny. Nothing you say makes sense, nothing you say can be backed up with rational arguments, so you have force people into it.

Jacob Russell
Jacob Russell

implying they arent just working class jews that the elite class of jews tries to use as folder to them take the blame for things unknowingly like when they gave hitler permission to kill Rothschild jewish rivals.
Which were working class jews and competitors.

Aiden Turner
Aiden Turner

i siezed my means of reproduction
three times

Camden Jenkins
Camden Jenkins

Well, by your logic, everyone should reject your "sociological" arguments, because you're not a certified expert in social "science" arguments as far as anyone here knows.

Fair point.

"Scientists" like you unironically think that appeals to authority are valid logical arguments.

Maybe I'm a retard (very likely), but, isn't that the other way around? When people throw around Science mambo jambo usually is done in an appeal to authority, right?

As I stated before, my problem is the misuse of neuroscience and biology. When I said I run away from people talking about Science it's mostly because of my usual experience of philosophers and others talking about Quantum Mechanics and shit. So sorry, was just a personal reflex.

Ian Johnson
Ian Johnson

implying jews working class gommie hitler something for things blame unknowingly rothschild rothschild rothschild
it wasn't the jews because the jews who jewed the slavs weren't real jews
Nothing you're saying makes actual sense. Nice trolling attempt.

Juan Jenkins
Juan Jenkins

I'll take over for him. What were you discussing?

Grayson Morgan
Grayson Morgan

Structurally
But they're not though.
The capitalists consume/own an exponentially small amount of consumer goods compared to what the entire working class owns.

If you took every last thing from the capitalists worldwide and spread it amongst everyone else <1% of the working class would have any of these things. Also the things that would be distributed are not useful things for the working class.

If you took every last penny from the capitalists and gave it to everyone else the average person would have like maybe 30 dollars.

Why do you people give a shit about what amounts to basically nothing?

Adam Campbell
Adam Campbell

Do you think capitalism or liberalism was implemented in South America or Africa without mass-scale or tyranny? Do you think people are somehow "convinced" into an economic system?

But ok, human nature, capitalism is more naturals, niggers mostly killed each other, there is no capitalism in those countries, etc, I know the drill.

Jacob Gonzalez
Jacob Gonzalez

Do you think capitalism or liberalism was implemented in South America or Africa without mass-scale or tyranny?

Aren't the countries in africa that have been colonized the most successful compared to the rest of africa?

Ethan Cruz
Ethan Cruz

It's not a matter of consumer goods, it's a matter of means of production. Of wage labour. Of salary.

Come on, you know that's the marxist analysis, don't come with redistributing memes.

Dylan Campbell
Dylan Campbell

When people throw around Science mambo jambo usually is done in an appeal to authority
That's a complete non-sequitur, and you don't really get to simply assert that it's "mumbo jumbo" just because you don't like it.

my problem is the misuse of neuroscience and biology
You don't just get to assert that it's a "misuse" because you don't like the consequences for your ideology.

Ethan Jenkins
Ethan Jenkins

make X
keep X
predates humanity
yes, it must be enforced through mass-scale tyrany

Also they were capitalist before the white devils came. Thats why they sold their kin as slaves.

Camden Gutierrez
Camden Gutierrez

Irrelevant for his argument about implementing a system via mass-scale murder.

Benjamin Long
Benjamin Long

This should be the first thing every college student has to read when they arrive at university.

When the day of the rope finally arrives, I hope the masses are smart enough to hang the leftist professors first. This entire mess is their fault.

Oliver Mitchell
Oliver Mitchell

Slavery economy is not capitalist economy. Surprise.

Wyatt Phillips
Wyatt Phillips

No such thing as humanity
Human subspecies are a scientific fact

Justin Young
Justin Young

i've never actually seen anyone on Sup Forums seriously reply to israel

why am i falling for these jewish tricks.

Juan James
Juan James

Fuck off faggot

Josiah Sanchez
Josiah Sanchez

Every country in Africa was colonized except the one with the African Union HQ.

Cooper Stewart
Cooper Stewart

Social Science is not real Science.

Jack White
Jack White

pretentious faggot

Maybe I'm a retard

Yes you are.

John Wilson
John Wilson

Do you think capitalism or liberalism was implemented in South America or Africa without mass-scale or tyranny
It doesn't really matter how it was implemented in South America or Africa. There's nothing about the concept of NOT forcing people to participate in a planned economy that requires active use of force.

Noah Taylor
Noah Taylor

You don't just get to assert that it's a "misuse" because you don't like the consequences for your ideology.

I agree. But, as I try explaining before, I just deny that a normal person can take a scientific fact of any of these areas, extrapolate it and find honest consequences. It's not that I don't agree with the consequences (which I don't, because they're usually only justifications of the system), it's that I think they're not valid argumentations or extrapolations.

Ryan Wood
Ryan Wood

In what way were they not capitalist?

Isaiah Evans
Isaiah Evans

slavery
voluntary

Grayson Cruz
Grayson Cruz

I just deny that a normal person can take a scientific fact of any of these areas, extrapolate it and find honest consequences
How do you figure?

Justin Barnes
Justin Barnes

heheheh u dont meet my qualifications to argue with me tough luck pal hehehehe

Cooper Gonzalez
Cooper Gonzalez

There's nothing about the concept of NOT forcing people to participate in a planned economy that requires active use of force.

False. You need people free from means of producing their own food, clothes, etc. You need free people, in this sense, in order to force them to sell their labour force. I know I'm just spouting marxist memes, but it's not that hard to understand how this was systematically done in many countries, including England till beginnings of the XIX century. The implementation of liberalism had nothing of "liberal", it was done through systematic State action. Check "The great transformation" by Polanyi, who btw criticizes Marx and marxism quite a bit.

Nicholas Collins
Nicholas Collins

shut the fuck up you stupid fucking gook, anime is destroying your culture and yet you sell it to these western alt right weebs like you dont even care. sell out pig

Gabriel Howard
Gabriel Howard

it's a matter of means of production
But that's exactly what I'm talking about.
The vast majority of people don't want to be responsible for the means of production. I don't want to run a fucking factory.

If they took over the means of production, their living standards would not increase because no new consumer goods are being produced.
Do you not agree?

Speaking simply of resources the working class personally needs and wants, they will not magically have more of it.

Of wage labour. Of salary.
That's pretty dumb. So you're totally fine with having the same living standards and resources just as long as these resources are not distributed according to the money you get from working at the end of the week?

you know that's the marxist analysis,
Lmao so you're saying marxists don't care about the amount of consumer goods the working class gets?
Isn't that the MAIN selling point of communism?

Nathan Peterson
Nathan Peterson

wut
It should generally be a sign if the only counterpoint you can come up with is attacking things that were never said.
then again, at least you're not

Juan Evans
Juan Evans

Maybe you should check a definition of capitalism. Capitalism recquires free workers freely selling their labour force. Slavery played a role in the development of capitalism, but eventually it was superseeded. See for example the USA: the North needed to "free" all that labour power working as slaves in the fields of the South. Little humanity involved.

Jack Baker
Jack Baker

Looking for this?

Jaxon Brooks
Jaxon Brooks

You need people free from means of producing their own food, clothes, etc.
So in your communist utopia, everyone would own a factory to produce food, clothes etc.?

You need free people, in this sense, in order to force them to sell their labour force.
Force them how? Define what "force" means and then explain who's "forcing" me to go to work.

Nolan Mitchell
Nolan Mitchell

I suppose it's hair splitting, a slave is traded for goods so perhaps it can exist in such a system. Though certainly not a "Free market". The only way it ever was was when they weren't considered humans to start with.

Though Arabs were trading blacks as slaves until the 60's, so I'll hit them up about it.

James Mitchell
James Mitchell

FINNISH THE FUCKING STORY

Jaxson Harris
Jaxson Harris

"Here user, come break rocks in my- errr....YOUR quarry!"

Robert Ortiz
Robert Ortiz

Why do leftists always lie?
Particularly when you arent good at it

Capitalism: an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

Jeremiah Sullivan
Jeremiah Sullivan

He missed the label his enemies put on him the most: faggot. I GUARANTEE we call him a faggot more than anything.

Aiden Perez
Aiden Perez

Italy and Germany once tried to get slaves in Africa and Eurasia. So I doubt slavery cannot be coexisted with capitalist economy.

Julian Bell
Julian Bell

FUCK YOU NIPS YOU ATTACKING PERAL HABOR CAUSED HITLER TO LOSE FUCKKKKKKKKKK YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!! YOU DESTROYED THE WHITE RACE AND EUROPE.

John Hill
John Hill

It's US soldiers, weebs or english teachers....almost never actual japanese people.

Jonathan Jenkins
Jonathan Jenkins

niggers
humans
LOL

Evan Hall
Evan Hall

Their only mistake was pulling out before they finished off your pacific fleet. Your jews already had an open embargo on us.

sirry austrarian frag means i must have smarr yerrow penis

Kevin Flores
Kevin Flores

Speaking simply of resources the working class personally needs and wants, they will not magically have more of it.

I know it's a simplistic view, but for the sake of the argument: if the overall surplus that goes to the owner is instead redistributed among the workers, don't they "magically" have more?

I think that serves as an answer to the rest of your points.

Force them how? Define what "force" means and then explain who's "forcing" me to go to work.

Jesus. Ok, let's see. Algeria, XIX century. You go and open a factory. You tell people you will give them money. What the fuck do they need money for? The have a house which they own, and a field which gives them food.

Eventually you need that they pay a rent, and that the food is instead sold in a market. This didn't happen in an "economically" clean kind of transition, but by lots of State (ie military) violence through expropiation, moving towns apart, etc.

In the end you're forced to go to the factory.

Simple example about what I was referring to.

Chase Phillips
Chase Phillips

KYS FRENCHIE

Xavier Cox
Xavier Cox

No, you have enormous, long white penis, silly.

Hudson Perez
Hudson Perez

"Here user, come break rocks in my- errr....YOUR quarry!"

Are you a robot?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POqw0rIJe78

Aiden Young
Aiden Young

Coexist is the word. Yes, again, slavery played a huge role throughout the whole history of capitalism, but a purely slave state like, say, the Roman Empire, is not capitalism. Just like feudalism wasn't either capitalism nor slavery.

Ethan Rogers
Ethan Rogers

What the fuck do they need money for? The have a house which they own, and a field which gives them food.

They will want more food, different varieties of food, a larger field, a fixed up and better house, etc.

Do you deny that the concept of greed exists or rather, that human greed is created and fuled by capitalist societies?

Parker Garcia
Parker Garcia

What definition of capitalism are you using? It's certainly not from any dictionary.

Jayden Walker
Jayden Walker

Kek. Underrated.

Hunter Walker
Hunter Walker

Simple example about what I was referring to.
That's not what I asked from you. I asked you to define what it means to "force" someone, and then explain how I'm "forced" to go to work (according to your definition of "forced"). Not to give me your take on what happened in Algeria.

Austin Johnson
Austin Johnson

leftists in a right wing board

Slide thread confirmed

Carter Allen
Carter Allen

Globalism=/=globalization, retard.

Anthony Jones
Anthony Jones

They will want more food, different varieties of food, a larger field, a fixed up and better house, etc.

It didn't happen like that. It's a problem of not understanding History. If one sees the history of colonialism, the "incentive" for natives to be sell their labor force was not more food, a bigger car, etc. It may look like the incentive in our developed capitalism countries, but it was not how capitalism started, and definetly not how it was implemented in those countries. I think this is not a hard thing to check.

Greed exists. Greed wasn't created by capitalism: it existed before and will always exist. Greed is used as the sole explanation of a particular mode of production.

Camden Anderson
Camden Anderson

No, they have come to the still waters of knowledge. Give them a chance.

Jacob Garcia
Jacob Garcia

It didn't happen like that. It's a problem of not understanding History. If one sees the history of colonialism, the "incentive" for natives to be sell their labor force was not more food, a bigger car, etc.

Well they haven't gone back to mud huts....

Josiah Powell
Josiah Powell

Dissent is a good thing, i just wish it was intelligent dissent.

Ryder Richardson
Ryder Richardson

if the overall surplus that goes to the owner is instead redistributed among the workers, don't they "magically" have more?
Seeing how "surplus value" isn't an actual real thing that exists in the real world and a made up marxist fairy tale, no.

I know this is hard for you to understand, and it's probably the best way to crack a marxist so he/she will come back to reality. But it's something that must be done.

The capitalists have NOTHING for you.

Take everything they have and you will NOT benefit. AT ALL

In fact once all of their money is taken and divided up amongst everyone and the average worker goes to spend his $200(yes that small of an amount), prices would simply rise to all of this new demand where there is no supply and the worker would be in the same position he was before.

I know socialism/communism doesn't have money but the same exact idea applies. Whine about surplus value all you want, no new consumer goods are being produced.

WHAT IS THE POINT OF COMMUNISM?

Landon Murphy
Landon Murphy

I began by talking of how mass-scale murder and tyranny was used to implement capitalism in particular countries, so Algeria was an example of what I started talking about.

"Forced" as in "either you do it or you cannot get means to live". Simple. In capitalism, workers are "forced" to sell their labour force. I don't think it's that hard. That's the incentive that exists: selling your labor force to somebody else because you cannot produce with your own means. That's it. That's the incentive. There's no greed anywhere. Capitalists need surplus, workers need a wage, worker sells labour force, capitalists get surplus, capital moves, the cycle continues. There is literally no need for greed.

Aaron Wright
Aaron Wright

Wait a minute. If you admit Greed existed before capitalist societies and is real, wouldn't communism be un-achievable? If greed exists, then people can't be indoctrinated to be not greedy.

Austin Williams
Austin Williams

Yet you're still a leftist.

Robert Gomez
Robert Gomez

Ever heard of evolutionary psychology? I happen to have done some stuff on it so I can give you a rudimentary explanation.

We actually can explain human society through evolution, in as much as we can explain why men have always taken the primary dangerous roles, whilst women have always taken secondary, safer roles. We can explain why women choose their sexual partners and explain rape in relation to this, we can explain society in strategies humans develop to counter parental uncertainty.

So you're wrong, there are many good explanations for aspects of socitey through evolution

Daniel Smith
Daniel Smith

what have you done to help the revolution today?
Nothing, I'm a reformist.

Parker Ward
Parker Ward

Are you going to define "forced" and explain how people in an already free market are "forced" to participate in it? You cannot prove that NOT forcing people to participate in a planned economy inherently requires the use of force. All you've done is to give a limited number of examples where force was used, which doesn't prove anything.

Grayson Rivera
Grayson Rivera

sage goes in all fields
fuck you

Ethan Lopez
Ethan Lopez

I'm not a leftist.

Julian Long
Julian Long

what he said was pretty anti leftist bud

Adam Mitchell
Adam Mitchell

Seeing how "surplus value" isn't an actual real thing that exists in the real world and a made up marxist fairy tale, no.

Well, ok, I'm happy that after the discussion we arrived to a key concept upon we don't agree. Not just a constant exchange of viewpoints: now we could finally either keep discussing about surplus or stop completely.

Because you're completely right about this (and it also applies to my previous message): without Value theory and the concept of surplus, marxism doesn't exist anymore and everything falls apart.

So, I should get moving for lunch, but in any case it was interesting having a civilized discussion in Sup Forums.

Jace Jackson
Jace Jackson

t. 日本共産党

Christopher Carter
Christopher Carter

Ever heard of evolutionary psychology?
Marxists have no idea what evolution is, they're stuck in the 19th century.

Matthew Johnson
Matthew Johnson

They are not forced to sell their labour. They are free to work for themselves. But that's hard and has risks.

Eli Powell
Eli Powell

We can explain why women choose their sexual partners and explain rape in relation to this

Yeah ok, it always goes back to this. Jesus.

Owen Reed
Owen Reed

thanks for not responding to me jamming a screwdriver in your marxist gears

and conveniently leaving when the jew was pressuring you

Jace Wood
Jace Wood

FUCK WHITE PEOPLE!

Mason Moore
Mason Moore

I began by talking of how mass-scale murder and tyranny was used to implement capitalism in particular countries
Which doesn't prove anything, because argument by induction is not logically valid.

"Forced" as in "either you do it or you cannot get means to live"
That's a morally neutral definition of "forced". By this logic, if I live in a small tribe and I refuse to gather food or hunt because I'm a sociopath and I figure I can leech of of the other tribe members, they will be "forcing" me to hunt and gather if they refuse to share their food with me. Does that they're doing something morally wrong?

Mason Reyes
Mason Reyes

So, I should get moving for lunch
holy shit lol

You COMPLETELY skipped over the facts about resources under socialism/communism.

Go on leave, it will never change the fact the workers will have ABSOLUTELY NO increase in their material wealth under socialism/communism.

AHHAHAHAHA god damn

Cooper Hall
Cooper Hall

As I explained in another comment, capitalism doesn't work because of greed. That's the whole point. "Greed" as a human natural feature has always existed and will exist, but that doesn't mean that the economical system is completely determined by this particular feeling.

Ian Thomas
Ian Thomas

leaf makes a quality post

Jonathan Cook
Jonathan Cook

isnt there like a right wing organization controlling all of japan

close your borders for immigration. dont let white weeb cunts move to your country

Robert Scott
Robert Scott

If you can't indoctrinate your peopes to not commit greedy acts, then money WILL find a way to exist. Thus, communism wouldn't be able to be achieved, would it not?

Wyatt Sanders
Wyatt Sanders

Daily reminder

Leo Powell
Leo Powell

Jesus.

There is no market economy. Prices are not set by market exchanges necessarily.

Again, I don't see the point in discussing if you don't agree with the concept of surplus, because it basically means that we can't agree on anything about economy. So, how can I give you any argument you might accept when they are all going to be based on a concept with which you don't agree? Honest question. I don't know how to do it.

Aiden Martinez
Aiden Martinez

i am the white weeb cunt though

Aaron Bailey
Aaron Bailey

Still waiting for you to respond to this: Or is it getting too hard to do your rhetorical handwaving routine?

Zachary Hall
Zachary Hall

So we've talked economics to death.

But why do leftists love "corrupting" society?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJJduZlWLUQ

Like if it was just economic I'd just consider them more or less brigands, but shit like "we want society to decay" I don't see how it fits in, yet it's always leftists doing it.

Kevin Flores
Kevin Flores

Ok, let me put some example, let's see if it can work. Let's take violence. People are "by nature" violent. But we have laws, and some people doing some specific, tipified kind of violence are put in jail, or get fines, because of some laws and rules.

"Oh wow so you want to put laws against greed?"

No, I'm saying that societies find ways to deal with feelings, with "Nature". Little things less "natural" than parliamentary democracy, since people are "bossy" by nature, and animal males tend to fight for command, and still we found a system to balance all this "natural" features. I don't see how the existence of greed is so extremely determinant.

Joseph Harris
Joseph Harris

More of Soviet girl please

Austin Stewart
Austin Stewart

Sorry m8 I'm not that fast at writing.

rhetorical handwaving routine

That hit home because it's literally what I always do.

That's a morally neutral definition of "forced".

Yes.

By this logic, if I live in a small tribe and I refuse to gather food or hunt because I'm a sociopath and I figure I can leech of of the other tribe members, they will be "forcing" me to hunt and gather if they refuse to share their food with me

Yes.

I honestly don't get your point. Yes, it's a morally neutral definition. Use a different word if you don't like "force". Say "economic role" in society, or class, or whatever you prefer (I guess not class, kek).

Luis Rogers
Luis Rogers

There is no market economy.
Yes, if you read further I addressed that. It doesn't even matter. In ANY economy, there's STILL the same amount of consumer goods being produced and consumed.

The capitalists have NOTHING for you. Taking their shit will provide you with no new material wealth.

I don't see the point in discussing if you don't agree with the concept of surplus
Well for one the labour theory of value is bullshit, pic related.

Secondly, it doesn't matter. I'm talking purely about resources.

Why do you want socialism when it won't benefit you or increase your supply of consumer goods?
Why?

because it basically means that we can't agree on anything about economy.
No shit, that's why were having an argument.

So, how can I give you any argument you might accept when they are all going to be based on a concept with which you don't agree?
Why don't you start my addressing my arguments. You're just ignoring them because you know you're wrong.

Liam Smith
Liam Smith

because i dont care. the world needs to be destroyed and all you parasitic worms along with it the human race is nothing more than a infection on the earth, you may think that the jews use "us" but its us using the jews, we take their money and promise to "wipe someone out" but really we dont care because our goal is to wipe out all human activity on this planet. let the jews think they are in control, it destroys humanity quicker any how but slow enough to not make people panic.
Society is like a frog
and the jew is the slow burn

Leo Peterson
Leo Peterson

So you are proposing that we make greed frowned upon to the point that nobody does it in this society is basically what you're saying?

I think that's a bit silly. You can't indoctrinate people to frown upon greed because they have powerful greedy tendencies themselves.

Nicholas Clark
Nicholas Clark

Nice meme. But I have a better one.

NOT A ARGUMENT.

Gabriel Barnes
Gabriel Barnes

Whatever you say kid.

Evan Gonzalez
Evan Gonzalez

Read this gommie

Lucas Mitchell
Lucas Mitchell

Some shit for brains students aren't going to ever change shit, I wouldn't worry about it.

I mean, clearly that South African chick doesn't study science. She will never have an iota of influence on scientific progress.

The absolute vast majority of people recognise that she is nuts.

Lucas Allen
Lucas Allen

they're harmless

They're not though man, look at shit like the safe schools program.

They have this thing for going for people's kids.

Jayden Gray
Jayden Gray

I honestly don't get your point
Well, I wasn't making any specific point yet. I'm just trying to find some common ground first. So let's recap:

You say that capitalism "forces" people to sell their labor.
You define "forced" as "either you do it or you cannot get means to live".
You agree that this definition of "forced" is morally neutral.
Then surely you agree that you have not yet shown that:
1. "forcing" people (as per your definition) to sell their labor is wrong
2. "forcing" people to sell their labor is more of a moral violation than actively forcing people through the use of force to participate in a planned economy

Am I correct?

Henry Edwards
Henry Edwards

Yes, if you read further I addressed that. It doesn't even matter. In ANY economy, there's STILL the same amount of consumer goods being produced and consumed.

But that's not true. Feudal economy was not producing the same amount of consumer goods as in capitalist economy. And not only because of technological advancement and rise in population (both obvious), but because a market society is based in producing things, whatever, with the purpose of producing more capital. I mean, even if you don't agree with value theory, I think we can agree that the role of production in capitalism is increasing the capital, which is not the same as it was in feudalism or as it would be in socialism.

Why do you want socialism when it won't benefit you or increase your supply of consumer goods?

Taking their shit will provide you with no new material wealth.
I'm talking purely about resources.

That's the thing. The thing is not so easily solved as dividing the total capital in money among people and then assuming inflation.

For example, do I still need to work the same amount of time? To get the same supply of consumer goods?

"Jesus, stop being a faggot and address my arguments".

Ok, I would need to think more about them. Happy? I think you're oversimplifying, but I can't easily say how. There, you got me.

Got some food thought for these days.

Jack Ward
Jack Ward

you gotta get redpilled

i was redpilled the hard way, im from cuba and i came to the US when i was 8

i was pretty much brought up to hate marxists

i don't know what will be the straw that breaks the camels back for you, but i have a feeling it'll come soon

join the reich

Henry Wright
Henry Wright

i totally understood what's what in cuba when i was 8
join the reich
licking the master's boots is redpilled as long as the master is a member of muh glorious master race

Jackson Moore
Jackson Moore

But that's not true.
THAT'S NOT TRUE, THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!
Yes it is. By the number alone.

Feudal economy was not producing the same amount of consumer goods as in capitalist economy.
No shit. Capitalism was just better, just like it's better than socialism in production.

Why do you think socialism will produce more goods than capitalist economies. They NEVER do.

Also this isn't the main thing marxists are saying about resources. They're saying the resources that exist NOW capitalists are hoarding and that's why there's so much poverty. The idea that socialism is better at production is a secondary argument socialists make.

even if you don't agree with value theory
It doesn't matter. My image refuted it's idiocy anyway.

How does it feel that a socialist revolution won't increase your living standards and won't grant you more resources. You previously said it would lmao

The thing is not so easily solved as dividing the total capital in money among people and then assuming inflation.
That's why I ALSO provided an example without using money or a market economy. Can you even read?

Ok, I would need to think more about them.
You probably should because the fact the capitalists have nothing for you to take from them is a pretty big thing for a marxist to handle.

Leo Nguyen
Leo Nguyen

That's not what I meant at all. I was brought up my entire life to hate marxists by my parents feeding me anti marxist thoughts my entire upbringing. I didn't even fully understand what communism was until I was 15.

masterrace
masters boots

I am a falangist.

Adrian Rivera
Adrian Rivera

I wasn't really joking before about the fact that I had to leave, I already conceded defeat with our leaf friend, so let's see what I can say to you.

I think I'm fine with your recap.

1. "forcing" people (as per your definition) to sell their labor is wrong

Good point. Indeed, I think probably the key point with marxism. I'd say that a very deterministic view of marxim (which I think is wrong) would claim just that moral is irrelevant, that once this way of "forcing" people into doing something is not able to keep up with the development of material forces (techonology, etc), then a more "superior", or "effective" one (your number 2.) would replace it, just as capitalism replaced feudalism.

I honestly think that's kind of retarded and deterministic, but probably it's kind of widespread (or at least was till the beginning of the XX century).

If you ask me, I'd say that one doesn't need morals (or greed, or anything like that) to explain how capitalism functions, and one first needs to understand how people are "forced" into doing what they do structurally, because of the way the production of things are organized. That's why I used the term in the first place: not so much as a derogatory term but just as a way to explain how things work without using evolution or feelings, etc.

My personal view is that yes, we need some kind of moral view in order to justify changing this system. Marxism predicts periodic crisis and so on, but so far capitalism has been extremely capable of surviving all of them, so I don't really think one can just say that your point 1. will be superseeded by a different system just by "objective" causes, without some kind of posterior argument of why it's "bad, m'kay".

Jace Green
Jace Green

I'm really leaving now. Laugh and meme about it, it's ok.

You probably should because the fact the capitalists have nothing for you to take from them is a pretty big thing for a marxist to handle.

Probably the most honest and pure defenses I've seen of the capitalist class. Very interesting discussion.

Austin Hall
Austin Hall

Human nature doesn't determine our surroundings, instead our 'nature/instincts' are determined by our surroundings.

This is why the human nature arguments falls flat on its face, it makes assumptions about human nature using people living in capitalist societies as an example.

It is not natural for human beings to be greedy and individualistic as they did not behave this way in the past, communities were extremely interdependent and would perish if they lived each to their own.

Lincoln Baker
Lincoln Baker

Leftypol will never subvert pol

The past 500 friends didnt subvert anyone

Get out desu

Jayden Jones
Jayden Jones

Good point. Indeed, I think probably the key point with marxism.
You're misquoting me. I wasn't postulating that. I was saying that you have not shown it to be true. Read my post again...

I'd say that a very deterministic view of marxim (which I think is wrong) would claim just that moral is irrelevant, that once this way of "forcing" people into doing something is not able to keep up with the development of material forces (techonology, etc), then a more "superior", or "effective" one (your number 2.) would replace it, just as capitalism replaced feudalism.
Incidentally, these people always try to speed up this supposedly natural process by using angry-sounding rhetoric to convince people that they are being wronged and need to revolt. So this is a self-fulfilling prophesy based on circular reasoning.

I'd say that one doesn't need morals (or greed, or anything like that) to explain how capitalism functions
One doesn't need morals to describe how anything functions. Morals are for prescriptive statements, not descriptive ones.

My personal view is that yes, we need some kind of moral view in order to justify changing this system.
Good thing we agree that at the very least one would need some pretty convincing and internally consistent moral argument to replace a system that "forces" people to sell their labor with a system that actively punishes people who stray from the planned economy.

Isaac Cruz
Isaac Cruz

Communism is theft.

When you run out of shit to steal everyone starves to death.

Evidence: According to The Little Black Book of Communism (1997) 85-100 million people were killed because of Communism last century alone. That figure includes deaths in War, Political Purges, and MASS STARVATION DUE TO CENTRAL PLANNING.

When will this shitty
le socialism meme
die.

Logan Foster
Logan Foster

Capitalist class

That's the problem with people who fall for le socialism meme, they're all word-thinkers.

Cameron Walker
Cameron Walker

Nothing wrong with homosexuality. From a glance, I don't see anything wrong with the Safe Schools Program.

Cameron Anderson
Cameron Anderson

That wasn't the special version of socialism I came up with in my mom's basement.l so those deaths don't count.

Hudson Morales
Hudson Morales

Nothing wrong with homosexuality.

Nothing? Not a single thing?

You can't criticize homosexuality at all about anything because it's perfect?

That's what you're saying.

I don't know, I find their parades annoying.

Hudson Allen
Hudson Allen

Nothing wrong with homosexuality.

Jose Adams
Jose Adams

being a flamboyant and annoying faggot is an inevitable consequence of wanting to fuck another man in the ass
I don't quite follow...

John Phillips
John Phillips

Fuck off and holocaust the Palestinians already, Shlomo.

Kayden Hughes
Kayden Hughes

they're all world-thinkers
No, they automatically assume that if you don't have x amount of money or assets than you're automatically a worker. The term capitalist doesn't apply to you, because you are supposedly exploited at every corner by the monopoly man.

Nolan Walker
Nolan Walker

Cringey AF

Chase Powell
Chase Powell

I'm waiting for official permission from this guy.
<

Juan Mitchell
Juan Mitchell

Educated my friends and family on Rosa Luxemburg, the origins of capitalism and wage labour

feels good comrades

death to fascism

Josiah Walker
Josiah Walker

they automatically assume that if you don't have x amount of money or assets than you're automatically a worker.
Yes, but that's where the word-thinking magic comes in. If the label applies to you, you're the good guy. If it doesn't, you're the bad guy, the bourgeois.

Owen Jones
Owen Jones

bad guy

It doesn't work that way. The bourgeoisie aren't "bad", they simply follow their class interests, as should the workers.

You do occasionally get people acting against their class. Kropotkin for one. Workers can also betray their class interests by siding with reactionaries.

Jordan Nelson
Jordan Nelson

I don't give a shit about consenting adults. This is a dead issue to me.

I *do* care about shit like pic related.
Time and money spent teaching young boys about sex fetishes or having grown adult teachers say to young girls "gee, you're still developing, so much to learn...mmmm, yes..." is time not spent teaching them about how to be productive members of society.

If you don't care about this and throw your hands in the air and go "Heh, why do you people *care* about this!" I'm not actually going to try and convince you, you're obviously too much of a far gone deadshit to realize.

Blake Davis
Blake Davis

the origins of capitalism

I assume you mean thousands of years ago when the first humans started growing food?

Parker Thomas
Parker Thomas

I'm really leaving now. Laugh and meme about it, it's ok.
Yes leave.

It won't change the fact there's ZERO benefit to socialism.

This fact just grinds at you.
Sleep on it.

Probably the most honest and pure defenses I've seen of the capitalist class. Very interesting discussion.
You should think about it.

Isaac Davis
Isaac Davis

Not at all. Capitalism has barely existed for 400 years.

Ayden Martinez
Ayden Martinez

Is shit, dont bother. 11 pages that the jew expects you to buy for 15 dollarydoos

Jack Cox
Jack Cox

You do occasionally get people acting against their class. Kropotkin for one. Workers can also betray their class interests by siding with reactionaries.

This seems to happen all of the time though.

Doesn't this disprove marxism?
Oh wait, knowing marx he probably put something in his books about how this somehow doesn't refute him.

Crafty jew that marx.

Ayden Jenkins
Ayden Jenkins

Why do we need to have a revolution instead of a discussion?
If our ideas are good we shouldn't need revolutions considering we are in a democracy?

Andrew Clark
Andrew Clark

So you're saying a garden is not a privately owned means of production?

Colton Mitchell
Colton Mitchell

Is that a vintage Zyklon Ben?

Easton Sanchez
Easton Sanchez

This seems to happen all of the time though.
Doesn't this disprove marxism?
It's false consciousness.

What does a garden produce? It's a tiny patch of land used for decoration. The fact that we have gardens is a reflection of the capitalist system of private ownership of land. Humans seem to have an instinctive desire to tend to nature, yet the commons were torn asunder centuries ago and divided up between a fortunate few.

A farm is a means of production, since it allows for production of economic value through socially valuable/necessary labour.

Asher Scott
Asher Scott

Everybody's Chill

Because they're all dead.

Communism is theft. When you run out of shit to steal everyone starves to death.

Evidence: According to The Little Black Book of Communism (1997), 85-100 million people were killed by Communism in the 20th century. That includes pointless wars, political purges, and MASS STARVATION DUE TO CENTRAL PLANNING.

Let this shitty
le socialism
meme die already.

Chase Reyes
Chase Reyes

A farm is a means of production, since it allows for production of economic value through socially valuable/necessary labour.

making anyone who grows their own food a capitalist.

Gavin Collins
Gavin Collins

It doesn't work that way. The bourgeoisie aren't "bad", they simply follow their class interests, as should the workers.
That's how you pretend to be sophisticated intellectuals among yourselves, but when it's time to convince the people of your bullshit, you revert to the "good guys vs. bad guys" thinking. See for example: every socialist revolution in history.

Ryder Lewis
Ryder Lewis

This is a daily reminder that anyone supporting communism is supporting: work camps, cencorship, tyranny, executions, dismissal of privat property and ownership, dismissal of privat life and freedom of choise.

Bentley Scott
Bentley Scott

Unless they're exploiting a worker for profit through wage labour, unless they're coercing the worker to labour on his privately owned land, then no, the "grower" is not a capitalist. For a full explanation, see here.

https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/c/a.htm#capitalism

Mutual Aid where nobody exploited is a rather different thing and quite compatible with most socialist models.

Jose Taylor
Jose Taylor

I told all my friends and my parents that even though we women probably produce at least half of what men produce, we're only paid 77 cents for every dollar and that just isn't right.

My dad just laughed in my face and told me to shut the fuck up. Literally shaking right now, can't believe he's such a sexist arsehole. He gave my brother $40 for washing the car, mowing the lawns and doing the dishes. When I asked where my money is, he laughed again and said "for what?" Fuck this patriarchy, seriously. My brother gets money literally just for having a dick between his legs. Even worse, mum seems to be on his side. Classic case of internalized misogyny.

Anyway, so happy to have found leftypol. A place where I can finally fit in and be happy.

Jeremiah Sullivan
Jeremiah Sullivan

I bought some top shelf tequila and box seats because only failures are perpetually poor

Luke Edwards
Luke Edwards

Define "exploitation" and explain how I'm exploited (as per your definition) by my employer.

Nathan Wood
Nathan Wood

Socialist revolutions arise when class struggle and class consciousness reaches a necessary threshold, where contradictions of class society become so great that the sham we call democracy is shattered and the unbridled conflict within society is revealed. Workers do not just hate capitalists for being bad, they realise how society is operating and act to change their material conditions. Moral begging changes nothing and never will.

Anthony Edwards
Anthony Edwards

Unless they're exploiting a worker for profit through wage labour, unless they're coercing the worker to labour on his privately owned land, then no, the "grower" is not a capitalist

Yes he is. Capitalism is privately owned means of production. If I'm growing a garden and keeping the food for myself, or selling it, that makes me a capitalist. The only labour I'm exploiting is my own.

Logan Morgan
Logan Morgan

comicbooks

hang yourself

Joseph Collins
Joseph Collins

What needs to happen before the revolution will occur? Mass unemployment due to AI/automation?

Cameron Morales
Cameron Morales

Whats a private contractor under communism?

I have a useful skill and I sell my skills (eg: carpenter, doctor, shitposter).

What if I'm a hooker?

Jackson Russell
Jackson Russell

Where one person is coerced by another who holds socioeconomic power into meeting their private ends at their own expense.

Under capitalism, this takes the form of wage labour and profit. Your boss exploits you by not fully compensating you for your labour.

Capitalism is rather clever in the way it masks this. Under feudalism it was obvious; peasants had to directly give their lords a chunk of what they themselves produced just to live.

Landon Murphy
Landon Murphy

socialist revolutions arise when class struggle and class consciousness reaches a necessary threshold
This is circular reasoning:
1. socialist revolutions are natural and inevitable
2. socialist revolutions arise from class consciousness
3. we will use angry, moralizing rhetoric to convince people that they're being wronged, and achieve "class consciousness"
4. socialist revolution will naturally follow
5. therefore (1) is true

Dominic Edwards
Dominic Edwards

Seize the white women for our black workers, gomrades.

Jack James
Jack James

Capitalism is privately owned means of production
Yes, but the labour is not done by the owner. The owner does not have to operate the means of production. He owns them by law, with the backing of the state, and can rake in profit in absentia.

keeping the food for myself
If that is the case, then that is ok. But for all your needs to be met, you need to participate in society. Hence the term "socialism".

Mutual exchange is fine, since nobody is being exploited through unequal exchange. Selling it for a profit is a different matter.

Jacob Hall
Jacob Hall

he defines "exploitation" by using another negative-sounding word "coercion"
he doesn't realize he's demonstrating word-thinking
Okay. Define "coercion", and explain how I'm coerced to work for my employer.

Wyatt Baker
Wyatt Baker

Again, what revolution? The only communists are social studies students who will never achieve anything and autistic shut ins praising Stalin and spamming websites with communist meme sentences.

Your ideology is dead, lmao.

Austin Howard
Austin Howard

Pinochet did nothing wrong.

Christian Wood
Christian Wood

1. socialist revolutions are natural and inevitable
never said that. it will only happen if the workers make it so.
3. we will use angry, moralizing rhetoric to convince people that they're being wronged, and achieve "class consciousness"
Morality has nothing to do with it. I cannot force you to become a class conscious socialist, you have to do it yourself, as I did.

Juan Long
Juan Long

never said that. it will only happen if the workers make it so.

You don't expressly say it, rather you imply it because any worker who isn't in this state is somehow oppressed and should work towards it and always would if he knew how amazing socialism was.

Jacob Edwards
Jacob Edwards

Fuck off lefties. You will be purged.

Jeremiah Wilson
Jeremiah Wilson

humans
KEK

Angel Gray
Angel Gray

Yes, but the labour is not done by the owner. The owner does not have to operate the means of production

Of course he does, do you think someone who owns a farm just sits in bed all day? Ranchers have to operate the ever living fuck out of the things they own, and their wages are 100% dependent on how much they are able to get done. If they're lucky they might be able to pay someone to help them once in a while.

Xavier Carter
Xavier Carter

If you're not building up a survivalist skillset to train a leftist militia, you're not trying.

Jose Moore
Jose Moore

Capitalists control the state and so any resistance is clamped down upon. You're coerced because if you don't, you'll go hungry, become homeless, will be socially excluded, and so on. Capitalism requires workers to sell their labour every day to survive. Socialism means workers decide for themselves what to do with their labour.

Before some genius says "but you'll always need to work", congratulations. That doesn't justify capitalism.

Anthony Gray
Anthony Gray

never said that
Marx postulates it, and uses this to argue that capitalism is doomed to fail, but his argument relies on Marxists helping people reach "class consciousness", so his argument amounts to "capitalism is doomed to fail because Marxists will make it fail". I thought you were a Marxist.

Morality has nothing to do with it.
Then why are your buddies so angry and emotional about it, and why do they try to generate angry and emotional responses in the "worker class" by consistently using adjectives with negative moral implications?

Dominic Evans
Dominic Evans

You mean comies or cancer?

Elijah Long
Elijah Long

Socialism means workers decide for themselves what to do with their labour.
History want to have a word with you.

This word is no.

Under capitalism, we decide what job we will take and get paid a lot to do it.

Jace Gonzalez
Jace Gonzalez

Workers under capitalism are oppressed regardless of their level of class consciousness.

There's a difference between owners and workers. Some mix labour with their property (petty bourgeoisie in Marxist terms). A farmer may be a capitalist if they employ others to work on their farm (which is often the case). They own the means of production (the land and the implements needed to work it); means of production become capital when they are worked by hired laborers. Often, a small farmer may straddle the line between non-capitalist proprietorship and small capitalist, as they may only hire seasonal labor

Levi Nelson
Levi Nelson

I asked you to define "coercion" and explain how I'm coerced into working. Try again.

That doesn't justify capitalism.
Why should not participating in your planned economy be justified?

Logan Long
Logan Long

A few centuries ago, humanists said "We can't let them live like that, as civilised humans, we have the duty to teach our ways to the humans still living in the state of nature".
Now, humanist think it is a crime against humanity and we must let them do whatever they want while paying to fix there unending train of failures.

Eli Thomas
Eli Thomas

Workers under capitalism are oppressed regardless of their level of class consciousness.

So if I don't agree with world socialism, I need to be murdered for not agreeing with you?

Cohen.

Start the chopper....

Jose White
Jose White

morals have nothing to do with it!
workers are exploited!
workers are coerced!
workers are oppressed!
capitalism is unjustified!
Marxist sophistry...

Evan Long
Evan Long

well, I haven't fell for the ol' lefvt vs right divide and conquer tactic

Gabriel Jackson
Gabriel Jackson

Often, a small farmer may straddle the line between non-capitalist proprietorship

No straddle nothing, if you privately own a means of production, you are a capitalist, period. There is no grey area or interpretation. My garden that I tend to on my private property belongs to *me* and produces food/money for *me*. That makes me a capitalist, doing capitalism. The definition does not mention wages or workers, only that it is privately owned.

Kayden Wood
Kayden Wood

uses this to argue that capitalism is doomed to fail
Sure, but only if the workers fight back. Nothing is inevitable and history is chaotic.
Then why are your buddies so angry and emotional about it
That's a pretty normal reaction to a world of shit. Not everyone is a perfect machine. Capitalism creates alienation and misery.
consistently using adjectives with negative moral implications
You'll have to ask them. Generally I would suspect because capitalists do the same, so it's fighting fire with fire.

we decide what job we will take
Sure you do. Until the next recession/depression hits. Then you're on the scrap heap. Capitalism by its very nature does not allow everyone to be employed.

Blake Ortiz
Blake Ortiz

oppressed
I think you don't understand the meaning of this word. You have to do shit in order to get shit done. It is not oppression, it is the way things are in our universe. Sit, in social democracy or social liberalism, even if you decide to not do a single thing you get free money.

How is that oppression?

Hunter Hill
Hunter Hill

You guys overthrew your communist dictator and the paratroopers were so excited to blow his ass away they didn't even wait for the media to come outside with the camera.

Isaiah Lopez
Isaiah Lopez

you'll have to ask them [why they always use words with negative moral implications]
them
not me

exploited
coerced
oppressed
I'm still waiting for you to define "coercion" and explain how I'm "coerced" into working as per your definition.

Aiden Garcia
Aiden Garcia

What an edgelord

Benjamin Howard
Benjamin Howard

Sure you do. Until the next recession/depression hits. Then you're on the scrap heap. Capitalism by its very nature does not allow everyone to be employed.
Capitalism, like a liquid, will take whatever form it have to take to occupy the space.

If people are willing to work and there is no corruption on the way, we will have full employment.

Also, thanks for your concerns about my person but unlike socialists, I don't rely on others to stay alive.

Caleb Walker
Caleb Walker

I asked you to define "coercion" and explain how I'm coerced into working. Try again.
I just did. You are coerced by the very nature of your relation to the means of production. You do not (I assume) own private property, you sell your labour and cannot rest on your laurels. If you don't, you'll starve. Your boss steals your labour and the products of your labour to fatten his pockets.

Why should not participating in your planned economy be justified?
I don't advocate a Soviet style economy. Decentralised planning is better. If you don't want to participate go ahead, but don't expect society to care about you. You're on your own.

Hudson Morgan
Hudson Morgan

Then, all the socialist republics go back to capitalism and free market.

Ouuups.

Jeremiah Kelly
Jeremiah Kelly

No. Quite why you would be against socialism is a mystery though.

Jaxon King
Jaxon King

Maybe he like not starving.

Blake Gray
Blake Gray

morals have nothing to do with it
exploited
coerced
oppressed
your boss steals
living in a world of shit
capitalism is unjustified

I'm keeping a tally, mate. Be careful about your wording.

I just did
You didn't. You're just describing a specific situation and claiming that it is an instance of coercion. I asked you to define coercion in general.

If you don't want to participate go ahead, but don't expect society to care about you. You're on your own.
So if I was convincing people to participate in a free market instead, I would be allowed to with no consequence?

Carson Garcia
Carson Garcia

No straddle nothing, if you privately own a means of production, you are a capitalist, period. There is no grey area or interpretation
That is a staggering lack of nuance. Class relations shift over time, even within systems. Capitalist classes are different today than they were just a few decades ago.
My garden that I tend to on my private property belongs to *me* and produces food/money for *me*.
Money is a commodity and you can't just "produce" it, so no.
That makes me a capitalist, doing capitalism. The definition does not mention wages or workers, only that it is privately owned.
Wage labour and a landless working class are cornerstones of capitalism. Wage labour is the way exploitation is masked, and the working class that can only sell their labour is a product of the demise of feudalism.

Kayden Campbell
Kayden Campbell

its autism time
Go LARPing somewhere else you mentally retarded children.

S A G E
A
G
E

Nathan Williams
Nathan Williams

If Sup Forums supports Cuckfederates then Sup Forums is full of retards straight up. Nigged up country full of nigger lovers and racial mongrels.

Julian Foster
Julian Foster

Because I don't believe in taxes for my work now and in the future being handed over to people who hate my guts, for starters.

I don't mind a mixed economy as we have now, which has minor socialism. I'm happy to have taxes go to people on our version of welfare if they're trying to better themselves, or if they're pensioners who gave a lot to the system over the years.

Able bodied people in their 30s who just keep cranking out kids to get more money, well I won't stop you if you haul them off to a gulag.

"Class consciousness" what a laugh, society has so much more to it than my fucking income bracket.

Landon Sanchez
Landon Sanchez

Exploitation, coercion and oppression are objective material realities. Marxism does not appeal to the superstitious or supernatural to derive a belief system. It simply requires examining the material world.

Capitalism certainly is "justified" under bourgeois society. As would socialism be under proletarian society.

Hunter Bailey
Hunter Bailey

I asked you to define coercion in general.
It's when you use force, lies or ruse to get something from someone who would not otherwise give it to you.

Like taxes, or planned economy. Those are good examples of coercion.

Jace Lee
Jace Lee

Of course you have to get shit done. But capitalism is by no means the only way to get shit done.

Welfare is a measure to pacify the working class; it gives them something to lose. Better to have small welfare than full blown revolution. Capitalists learned that the hard way in 1917.

Leo Carter
Leo Carter

commies
getting shit done
The only thing commiecucks get done is to starve to death.

Jaxson Taylor
Jaxson Taylor

exploitation
Again, you don't understand the words you use. By selling my labor, I got food, home, all the things I need to live and all the things I enjoy.

Under communism, the said things would not be done at all.

So, it is true some cronies get an unfair share of the cake, but the whole process give me a bigger part than any others. I just wish there would be no professional welfare leaches class.

Caleb Bell
Caleb Bell

them
not me
Yes, it might shock you but Marxists differ greatly. Have you seen the number of Trotskyist groups?

I'm still waiting for you to define "coercion" and explain how I'm "coerced" into working as per your definition.
I explained in a post earlier. You have to sell your labour, to a boss who owns the place you run whether you like it or not. You have limited power on your own and can be discarded at any moment. You're a cog in the colossal machine of capitalism. The vagaries and cyclical failure of the market determines your life and employment. Proletarians are coerced into working by threat of starvation, homelessness, unemployment and so on. Capitalists do not have to work to live; they just need others to work for them

Zachary Roberts
Zachary Roberts

But capitalism is by no means the only way to get shit done.
Tell me more about the other ways. Stalin and Mao both tried yours and had to go back to state capitalism once they got tired of seeing their guys dying.

John Hernandez
John Hernandez

GET OFF MY BOARD!

Joshua Collins
Joshua Collins

Capitalism, like a liquid, will take whatever form it have to take to occupy the space.
Sure, it changes over time, but the fundamentals of private property, wage labour, production for profit and capital accumulation remain.
If people are willing to work and there is no corruption on the way, we will have full employment.
Capitalism needs a certain level of unemployment to keep wages down. Even capitalists admit this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAIRU
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_army_of_labour

Also, thanks for your concerns about my person but unlike socialists, I don't rely on others to stay alive.
Ha, ok. Good luck getting food, clothing, healthcare, transportation, communication and housing and so on all on your own. I'm sure you can manage all that.

Luis Perry
Luis Perry

Exploitation, coercion and oppression are objective material realities
Why do Marxists use words with strong negative moral undertones to appeal to the workers? Your use of these words is different from the commonly understood meaning that is rooted in morality. I guess your riling up of the masses with such rhetoric is completely coincidental and unintentional? =)

muh words are objective material realities
Then why do you repeatedly refuse to define them? Our entire exchange is based on me asking you repeatedly to define them.

Kayden Hughes
Kayden Hughes

URRRRGGGG!!! HOW DARE YOU WORK HARDER THAN ME AND HAVE A HIGHER QUALITY OF LIFE SOMEHOW MIRACULOUSLY!!! NOW GIBS ME DAT SHEIT WHITE CIS SCUM!!

/LEFTYPOL/

William Ward
William Ward

Capitalism didn't spring into existence immediately. It took centuries. Look how long it took from the English Civil War to the revolution in your country to destroy feudalism.

Capitalism starves millions every year. Do you really think hunger was a new thing under socialism? China had famines every decade for millennia

http://www.globalresearch.ca/capitalism-and-global-poverty-two-billion-poor-one-billion-hungry/5393262

Asher James
Asher James

Pretty sure they would call that the "black market" and it would be off to gulag with you.

Lucas Roberts
Lucas Roberts

You are again just describing your perception of the life of the worker under capitalism, and proclaiming it to be an instance of exploitation, oppression and coercion. This is not a definition of coercion.

Leo Wright
Leo Wright

Capitalism starves millions every year

Gommunism still managed to kill more, lmao.

David Watson
David Watson

/thread
Leftists are literally niggers.

SAGE AND SLIDE

Cameron Ross
Cameron Ross

coercion
"the action or practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats."

Pretty much fits every class society and capitalist country ever. Work or starve (despite producing enough food to feed everyone but throwing half of it away each). Work or go homeless (despite Europe having 11 million empty homes, double the homeless population). Work and destroy the very environment you live because it boosts my profit margins. Work 40 hours a week for 45 years to scrape an existence, despite even feudal peasants having more time off.

So if I was convincing people to participate in a free market instead, I would be allowed to with no consequence?
You'd probably be mocked but sure, I guess. Good luck convincing socialist workers that they should submit themselves to you though.

Julian Powell
Julian Powell

but the fundamentals of private property, wage labour, production for profit and capital accumulation remain.
And it is what make capitalism the best economical motor in existence. Sure, we have to contain it in order to avoid regular crash and inhuman misery, but your way offer nothing else than inhuman misery.

Offer and demand.
The lower the wage, the less likely people are to go to work, especially if they are paid to not get a job.
Less people looking for a job mean wages raise.
It find a balance itself, there is no need for Porky/Jew conspiracy preventing you to be successful at life.

Ayden Jackson
Ayden Jackson

"the action or practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats."
What threats of force are being used against me to make me go to work, and who is making these threats/applying this force?

Gavin Reed
Gavin Reed

Literally gibs me dat for free whitey.
You're not getting shit, nigger leech. Work for it or fuck off and die in some corner.

Wyatt Bennett
Wyatt Bennett

Because I don't believe in taxes for my work now and in the future being handed over to people who hate my guts, for starters.
Yet you see no problem with your boss making profit off your work every day? Taxation isn't inherently socialist either, if anything most socialist countries/anarchist communities abolished taxation in favour of direct exchange of goods.
Able bodied people in their 30s who just keep cranking out kids to get more money, well I won't stop you if you haul them off to a gulag.
I believe we should incentivise population control if that's what you mean. Generally people have less kids when they gain access to education. Also work is a duty under socialism, not a right as it is under capitalism.
"Class consciousness" what a laugh, society has so much more to it than my fucking income bracket.
Class isn't exactly the same as income. It's a social relation.

Owen Turner
Owen Turner

Feudalism was a capitalism form, in case you never opened an history book.
Shit, we had capitalism even before the Romans teaches us civilization. And are you calling the 100 year wars the English civil war?

Just because niggers do as poorly in post colonial capitalism as they did in pre colonial capitalism does not mean capitalism is to blame.

Adrian Barnes
Adrian Barnes

Where do you get these memes from?
http://www.fightbacknews.org/2012/10/1/child-malnutrition-eliminated-cuba-us-nearly-quarter-children-hungry
https://gowans.wordpress.com/2012/12/21/do-publicly-owned-planned-economies-work/
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Cuban-Life-Expectancy-Among-the-Highest-in-World-at-78.45-Years-20150526-0011.html
https://gowans.wordpress.com/2013/12/23/seven-myths-about-the-ussr/
https://www.rt.com/politics/337183-sympathy-for-stalin-among-russians/
https://www.rt.com/politics/340158-most-russians-regret-ussr-has/

Benjamin Jones
Benjamin Jones

Who is the yellow/blue guy?

Jaxon Long
Jaxon Long

Work or starve
Ho god. You are so dense they will use you in a new kind of nuclear reactor.

OF COURSE SOMEONE HAVE TO MAKE FOOD IF YOU DON'T WANT TO STARVE!
We need a fucking stupidity quantum to mark this new wold record.

Luke Fisher
Luke Fisher

"the action or practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats."
What threats of force are being used against me to make me go to work, and who is making these threats/applying this force?

Asher Evans
Asher Evans

Oh idk.. Maybe the millions and millions of people starved to death in Ukraine, USSR, communist China and North Korea?

Camden Sanchez
Camden Sanchez

Under communism, the said things would not be done at all.
Yes it will, don't talk nonsense

"from each according to ability, to each according to need"

Under communism we'll all work far less but have far higher living standards. Automation will cause mass capitalist unemployment.

Ethan Russell
Ethan Russell

Stalin and Mao didn't restore capitalism, the bureaucratic revisionists who came after them did.

Mason Jackson
Mason Jackson

"the action or practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats."
What threats of force are being used against me to make me go to work, and who is making these threats/applying this force? Why do you suddenly pretend not to see my posts anymore? =)

Joseph Moore
Joseph Moore

Why do Marxists use words with strong negative moral undertones to appeal to the workers?
Politics is about getting your message across isn't it? Moral demagoguery should be avoided where possible though. Words take on different meanings all the time m8, language is constantly in flux, like the world of capitalism. Dialectical materialism bruh.

Then why do you repeatedly refuse to define them? Our entire exchange is based on me asking you repeatedly to define them.
I've done it at least 3 times ITT now

Brayden Cox
Brayden Cox

Daily reminder to do your duty as a /pol/ack.

Asher Clark
Asher Clark

perception of the life of the worker under capitalism
That is what all workers experience. It's a common trait of being working class, across all countries. It happens every day, in every capitalist state. There is a reason communism is an international movement with a presence in every country.

Eli Price
Eli Price

free markets/ capitalism cannot fail. why is this so hard to understand?

Mason Torres
Mason Torres

Politics is about getting your message across isn't it?
So you admit that you are using words with moral undertones to appeal to the masses while they have no actual moral content in the context of your theory? Don't you see that as a little manipulative?

I've done it at least 3 times ITT now
You're responding to old posts. We're discussing your valid definition of coercion now but you're ignoring that post.

Cooper Sanchez
Cooper Sanchez

Sure, workers get paid one ruble an hour of work done farmers got paid in the proportions of their harvest, but it's okay, it's not written capitalism on it.

Hudson Carter
Hudson Carter

And it is what make capitalism the best economical motor in existence. Sure, we have to contain it in order to avoid regular crash and inhuman misery, but your way offer nothing else than inhuman misery.
The best so far, sure. Any Marxist would agree capitalism is necessary in human societal development.

Less people looking for a job mean wages raise.
Exactly, hence why unemployment is always kept around 5%, just enough to keep wages down. It's no accident; there's always work to be done. People want to contribute to society, but capitalism cannot allow full employment. They even admit it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdZp5iw-UEo

Oliver Nelson
Oliver Nelson

That is what all workers experience.
I don't care. It's not a definition. It's a description that you proclaim that be an instance of "oppression", "coercion" and "exploitation". I want to discuss how you logically decide which things are instances of that and which ones are not.

Oliver Nelson
Oliver Nelson

Don't you see that as a little manipulative?
The obvious answer is
Yes but I do it for the cause I feel is good. Other people gave this feeling to me.

Joshua Morales
Joshua Morales

KYS NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER

Ayden Bell
Ayden Bell

Chaim go fuck youself

Isaac Ward
Isaac Ward

"the action or practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats."
What threats of force are being used against me to make me go to work, and who is making these threats/applying this force?
Why do you suddenly pretend not to only see posts of mine from before you offered this definition? =)

Anthony Gutierrez
Anthony Gutierrez

What threats of force are being used against me to make me go to work
He answered that. It's because if no one build houses or till the soil, we will have no homes and nothing to eat.

Therefore, capitalism oppress us.

Asher Kelly
Asher Kelly

this analysis of employment is only relevant in context of socialist policies

Joshua Lewis
Joshua Lewis

The threats of homelessness, starvation, unemployment, isolation, poverty, the list goes on.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/jd-sports-working-conditions-channel-4-minimum-wage-sports-direct-a7476366.html

Capitalists do it. Not always directly, often through their police force, but it's always there.

Colton Bailey
Colton Bailey

Capitalists love gibsmedats. They do not work.

Samuel Walker
Samuel Walker

It's because if no one build houses or till the soil, we will have no homes and nothing to eat.
That makes no sense. If "coercion" is an action (as his definition states), then someone must be taking this action. "If no one builds homes, there will be no homes" is not an action that someone takes, it's just a deterministic consequence.

Evan Harris
Evan Harris

The threats of homelessness, starvation, unemployment, isolation, poverty, the list goes on.
Who is making the threats?

Lucas Turner
Lucas Turner

Feudalism was a capitalism form
that is beyond wrong. society was based on birth, landed elites, paying tribute, social obligation, rigid hierarchy, no wage labour etc. why do you think monarchs had their heads cut off by urban merchants and artisans?

And are you calling the 100 year wars the English civil war?

Nope, the conflict of the 1640s/50s. A bourgeois republic was established and absolute monarchy was abolished

Camden Ward
Camden Ward

why unemployment is always kept around 5%
Nigga, you have so little culture it hurt. Our official number is 10,5% and there is a ton of people who are pushed into making a fake formation every month or shit like that to reduce that number.

If a French work 507 hours in the last 319 days, he get full unemployment benefit and is not in this stat.

Bentley Taylor
Bentley Taylor

Work under capitalism is inherently coercive. We can make food without capitalism, you know.

Luke Johnson
Luke Johnson

marxists just revolt against nature. Unfortunately their ideas are inherently contradictory. I hear the commies in your country are running away from the shitty quality of life in the communes.

Adam Morris
Adam Morris

you can choose to not participate in the economy

Aaron King
Aaron King

Work under capitalism is inherently coercive.
Who is making the threats or using force to make people work under capitalism? You have defined coercion to be an action. An action is, by definition, taken by one or more individuals. Otherwise you could claim that rocks are coerced by gravity to fall to the ground.

Joseph Anderson
Joseph Anderson

defending persuasive redefinition
Typical left fascism.

t. nigger leech who never worked a single hour in his life

David Stewart
David Stewart

/pol/thread/106765873#p106777777

Josiah Hall
Josiah Hall

I agree with you, but apparently he can't see you when you prove him wrong.

Jeremiah Mitchell
Jeremiah Mitchell

So you admit that you are using words with moral undertones to appeal to the masses while they have no actual moral content in the context of your theory? Don't you see that as a little manipulative?

Really no idea what you're arguing here. Language is flexible and obsessing over individual words to this degree is anal in the extreme. Some utopian/religious socialists oppose capitalism on moral grounds, but Marxists do not. The masses lead themselves, not some high handed lecturer.

Chase Lopez
Chase Lopez

they fail every decade or so. guess we'll just pretend 2007/08 didn't happen. get ready for the next crash boyo.

the surplus value under socialism is put back into society, not stashed in the form of profit. those workers had living standards far beyond capitalist counterparts until they were forced to grant concessions.

Chase Smith
Chase Smith

Language is flexible
Yes, but you rely on the limits of its flexibility and make use of the persistence of the existing negative connotations of the words you use to make people feel a certain way, while it is unclear why they should have negative connotations in the new meanings you assign to them in your theory.

Some utopian/religious socialists oppose capitalism on moral grounds, but Marxists do not.
So did Marx choose his words at random and they just all happen to have negative moral connotations? =)

Jason Lee
Jason Lee

Please talk to a medievalist, I beg you.

The economy was based around free market, they just used artificially created monopolies to get money out of the workers. When a lord dominate a trade road, he can taxe the traders, but if he taxe them too much the traders can choose a longer road.
If a lord/merchant own a mill, he can ask for more money than he should, but not too much or peasants would manually make floor.

If you were a peasant, you needed to buy/rent land to work it and the quality of your live was proportional of what you could get out of your field. It was common for farmers to become wealthy and to go live in the burg doing a better job or for richs to become poor and to be forced to do hard labor to survive. It was capitalism with an aristocracy created by the medieval contract on top of it.

Easton Ramirez
Easton Ramirez

It took me some 20 posts to make you define "coercion". How many posts is it going to take to make you explain how "work under capitalism" fits your definition? You have defined "coercion" to be an action, but you cannot explain who is using force or threats against me to make me go to work. I wonder why you are so reluctant in the extreme to engage in a concrete logical examination.

Logan Ross
Logan Ross

this is called the business cycle. note that your lord marx noticed that before modern day 'capitalism' business cycle didnt exist. He attributed it to capitalism itself which is adhoc. The reality is that the buisness cycle is inefficient allocation of resources which isnt exactly a problem until state planners(socialists) are involved.

Jordan Gray
Jordan Gray

And then, people still have to work or you starve. There is no way out because this situation was not created by capitalism.

IF NO ONE WORK TO MAKE FOOD, EVERYONE STARVE.

IT IS WORK OR STARVE NO MATTER WHAT!

Capitalism just let you choose what input you want to have in the economy.

Disable AdBlock to view this page

Disable AdBlock to view this page