Is Seibah getting super powercreeped by newer servants from Strange Fake and...

Owen Sullivan
Owen Sullivan

Is Seibah getting super powercreeped by newer servants from Strange Fake and Grand Order? The VN flat out calls her the strongest servant, but that doesn't seem to hold up when you compare her to people like Heracles Archer.

All urls found in this thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFoJVybJTys&feature=youtu.be&t=108
Jason Cruz
Jason Cruz

The VN flat out calls her the strongest servant
No it doesn't.
Unless you're confusing the servant with the class as a whole.

Hudson Cooper
Hudson Cooper

it's been retconned so many times.
Even in the original novel she was not the strongest.
Gil was.

Noah Price
Noah Price

Saber getting powercreeped
When GoA exists

Takeuchi will protect his waifu with his life.

Jordan Smith
Jordan Smith

avalon is pretty much the reason she can beat servants of higher level

Bentley Taylor
Bentley Taylor

The concept of Servants and Heroic Spirits no longer means anything. Bill Shakespeare is the most righteous dude in the English language, but he is not a deified hero of myth and legend.

Jose Collins
Jose Collins

Anything stated as absolute truth in fate/* is just setting itself up to be subverted later.

Leo Jones
Leo Jones

Saber the class is the strongest. Saber the character not so much.

Ian Moore
Ian Moore

She wasn't even the strongest in Fate/Stay Night.

That being said, when she gets her Grand Saber incarnation, she's going to be the most powerful Servant ever because Nasu and Takeuchi cannot possibly let her not be.

Michael Price
Michael Price

Shirou calls her the strongest Servant. The whole VN, barring the prologue, is written from his perspective.

Remember that Archer also called himself the strongest Servant when Rin asked him who he was. And we know for a fact that he is nothing of the sort.

Owen Parker
Owen Parker

Archer
Beats Gilgamesh, the strongest hero
Somehow is not the strongest

Fuck off.

If there's a champion and you beat the champion, then you're the champion. It's not hard.

Anthony Cox
Anthony Cox

Archer didn't beat Gilgamesh. Shirou did.

Therefore, Shirou is the strongest Servant.

Angel Wood
Angel Wood

Shirou can beat 100% Arceuid confirmed.

Shirou is the true Type-Earth.

Cameron Cruz
Cameron Cruz

/thread

Christian Morgan
Christian Morgan

Shirou is Archer, in fact he's a much weaker Archer(he was weaker than 10% Archer)

And pic related.

Zachary Bailey
Zachary Bailey

Then how come Archer got his ass kicked by Gil and didn't beat him when they fought?

All Archer did in that scene was steal Shirou's kill. Shirou did all the hard work of beating Gil.

David White
David White

Gilgamesh can't beat 100% Arcueid though, he can manage against 30%.

So your logic is retarded.

Thomas Reed
Thomas Reed

Of course Gilgamesh can't beat 100% Arc. Shirou can, though. There's nobody stronger than Shirou.

Ryan Ramirez
Ryan Ramirez

Your logic makes no sense, again.

And we're talking about heroic spirits, not Arcueid. She's on another level even when she's not ATE.

Wyatt Williams
Wyatt Williams

What part of "Shirou is the strongest person to ever live" don't you understand?

There's literally nobody that he can't beat. UBW is the most powerful noble phantasm ever.

Zachary Bell
Zachary Bell

Her CLASS is the strongest generally. And she's no slouch herself.

She's probably gonna be Grand Saber, though, and be all kinds of broken. Excalibur will have some kind of bullshit full release that turns it EX and blah blah blah.

Lucas Gray
Lucas Gray

Saber was super power creeped a long time ago senpai. Probably since like She was introduced

Bitch lost her defensive NP while many others retain theirs on top of having more versatile NPs in general,has a shitty personality that clashes hard with the concept of fighting smart and basically wants to kill herself.

Isaiah Mitchell
Isaiah Mitchell

Excalibur will still one-shot 99% of Servants and overpower the vast majority of other offensive Noble Phantasms, from Iskander's chariot to Gawain's Excalibur Galatine.

Of course, the moment Excalibur doesn't work, she's up shit creek without a paddle, because she sure as hell can't spam that thing, and she's worth jack shit otherwise (loses to EVERYBODY in a straight fight).

Jack Jones
Jack Jones

No, that's actually false. You don't become the strongest just because you beat the strongest, there's several factors, such as luck, opportunity and your speciality being especially good against a specific type of style, that must be taken into account. Gilgamesh is considered the strongest because he's the best servant to have in almost any type of situation, while Shirou is mostly good against Gilgamesh but as it was stated in UBW, he would probably not be able to hold against other servants. Besides, let's be honest here, only reason Shirou managed to beat Gilgamesh is because he's the MC, we know for a fact that Gilgamesh is in fact stronger than him.

Sebastian Stewart
Sebastian Stewart

Aside from all those dead ends where he gets beaten by, like, Rider and stuff.

John Cooper
John Cooper

Saver

Christopher Allen
Christopher Allen

Ignoring Gil who is an abnormal aberation anyway Archer can arguealy lay claim to that, At the very least he can stalemate saber and beat Herc under the right circumstances

Jeremiah Gutierrez
Jeremiah Gutierrez

Is there a version of Gilgamesh who could beat Saber? and I'm not talking about Shirou!Saber or Kiritsugu!Saber, hell I'm not even talking about Rin!Saber. I'm talking about Sakura backed Saber Alter, riding a dragon, while dual wielding Excalibur and Caliburn, and using Rhongomyniad thanks to a third arm which was provided to her by the Grail's mud. She'd also have Avalon and a nice pair of titties that would make Nero green with envy.

Brody Lewis
Brody Lewis

Anything and everything can happen in the TM universe under "the right circumstances"

Noah Ross
Noah Ross

Beat the champion
Doesn't become the champion

That's not how it works, fuck off.

Christian Reed
Christian Reed

Just about every character in the VN has killed Shirou at some point. That means they're all the champions.

Isaac Hall
Isaac Hall

Good job ignoring literally everything I said. The best soccer team in the world doesn't suddenly lose its title just because it lost one game.

Jaxon Turner
Jaxon Turner

Strongest servant
Gets her shit kicked in multiple times in literally the same VN.

Don't take stuff like that at face value user

Jose Scott
Jose Scott

still no english
Fucking why

Kayden Morgan
Kayden Morgan

What part of "Shirou is the strongest person to ever live" don't you understand?
Word of god says Shiki can beat him.
That would make Shiki the strongestest.

Sebastian Howard
Sebastian Howard

loses a game
best team

Chase Nguyen
Chase Nguyen

Don't bully

Matthew Torres
Matthew Torres

So there was never a best team in history?

Dylan Collins
Dylan Collins

Heroic Spirit Arturia is a Top Tier Servant. She has Excalibur, one of the strongest offensive Noble Phantasms, and Avalon, the Ultimate defensive Noble Phantasm. She naturally has huge prana reserves and magic resistance thanks to her dragon core. She's also an excellent fighter with an invisible sword.

Gilgamesh has Ea, arguably the most powerful offensive Noble Phatasm, and he has the super-prototype Noble Phantasm version of literally everything ever conceived of by humanity in his treasury, among them countless treasures and tools of varying defensiveness, utility, and lethality, and he's intelligent enough to make effective use of most of them. If he got his head out of his ass he could accomplish pretty much anything.

Heracles is the greatest hero who ever lived and he will fuck your shit up six ways to Sunday no matter how much his bitch-ass Masters try to pull him down. Berserker is his -weakest- Class, and he can become any of them but Caster, even Avenger. Aside from his amazing personal stats and abilities, he has a arsenal of ridiculously powerful Noble Phantasms including the impenetrable hide of the Nemean Lion, incredibly acidic and lethally poisonous Hydra venom, and his bow that can destroy one hundred targets in one shot.

TL;DR Saber is still up there, she just has stiff competiton.

Matthew Green
Matthew Green

Saber is the strongest.

Gil is just full of bullshit.

Jeremiah Cruz
Jeremiah Cruz

/v/
/v/

Gabriel Howard
Gabriel Howard

Manga isn't vidya, user

David James
David James

Huge mana pool
copy any sword
Outexcalibur Saber
Spam Rho Aias
Has Avalon regeneration
Can shoot Excalibur from her bow
Probably has UBW
is a loli

Archer Illya could end any HGW by herself.

Jonathan Robinson
Jonathan Robinson

the purest
the ruler too pure for this world; down fall is fucking frenchies and bullshit human stuff

Michael Wood
Michael Wood

As long as Gil-kun isn't in it.

John Ramirez
John Ramirez

How strong would Saber Lancelot be compared to seiba

Zachary Rogers
Zachary Rogers

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Saber_(Fate/Grand_Order_-_Lancelot)

Meh. Not that impressive for a Saber

Dylan Reed
Dylan Reed

Shirou, with a fraction of Archer's power, managed to beat saber in a sword fight
Archer has enough weapons to go against Gil and win
Can kill Berserker 7 times and would have won had he killed the master instead
Can kill Caster
Can kill Assassin
Can match Lancer with both fighting seriously
somehow not the strongest

Adrian Foster
Adrian Foster

Nasu had a serious inner struggle on just how powerful and wankery he wanted Archer to be, so he both comes off super powerful and kinda weak as fuck.

You can hand wave it by saying Archer is powerful under the right circumstances, but honestly, Nasu just flip flopped a lot.

Isaiah Taylor
Isaiah Taylor

got hit because he remembered how beautiful Saber was
couldn't find any will power to snipe his cute imouto while Saber was fighting Berserker
Uses UBW to face certain death against Berserker, instead of killing cute imouto.

Archer weakness is cute girls.

David Cox
David Cox

Aww shit, we finally have Herc Archer now?

Samuel Green
Samuel Green

Loliripper one shots her, unless girls used to have dicks doesn't count as girls.

Isaiah Fisher
Isaiah Fisher

Archer weakness is cute girls

So, he is like, you know, Shiro?

Robert Howard
Robert Howard

Heroic Spirit Arturia is a Top Tier Servant
She has Excalibur and Avalon
and Avalon

Yeah except for all those times where she does not have it. Avalon is pretty literally not hers anymore and shouldn't be counted as a strength since 90% of the time the Master hangs on to it(Nearly all of FSN), 9% of the time it does not exist(Grand Order) and 1% of the time she herself can actually use it (Gilgamesh fight)

Gilgamesh going serious is far more likely at this point than her having Avalon. She's a shit servant.

Ethan Evans
Ethan Evans

Sort of.

True Archer/Avenger (Alcides)
He was summoned properly as Archer Heracles. His Master knows that Gilgamesh is part of the War and regards him as the major threat. He asks Herc if he would be willing to kill a child (Gil's master being a young girl) and Herc refuses. Herc is confident if it came to it he could even resist his Master's Command Spell to kill the girl (or himself).
Instead, his Master uses both his Command Spell and the Black Mud from the Fuyuki Grail to strip Herc of his Divinity and "awaken his past memories."
These shenanigans result in Heracles taking the name Alcides (his birth name in life, symbolizing the rejection of his Divinity), his corruption into an Archer/Avenger double summon and shifting his Alignment to Chaotic Evil, as the combination of his restored memories and being tainted by the Grail Mud have set him into full revengeance mode. Because he's lost his Divinity, he no longer has God Hand, but as "compensation" the Grail granted him "King's Order", giving him ALL of the Noble Phantasms he had in life after completing his Twelve Labors, including the Hide of the Nemean Lion. He also has an EX-Rank NP that hasn't been revealed yet. His stats are sky-high, and the arrows he fires can chip Gilgamesh's armor. His biggest feat so far is taking a 360-degree barrage from the Gate of Babylon and coming out unscathed, taunting Gil to use Ea if he wants a fight as "equals".

Luis Barnes
Luis Barnes

If Saber was supposed to be strong at all I'd barely believe it as the franchise seems to regularly go out of it's way to make her look as weak as possible in every story arc besides maybe the Fate route and even then she looks pretty much like the major underdog.

Jayden Hall
Jayden Hall

but as "compensation" the Grail granted him

The grail plays GM now

That is probably the second most stupid thing i've heard out of Nasuverse. Right behind "Artoria was as strong in real life as she is as a Servant" when the E,D,C,B,A and so on stat bullshit says that's literally impossible.

Jace Martin
Jace Martin

when the E,D,C,B,A and so on stat bullshit says that's literally impossible.
She lived in the twilight of the of the Age of Gods (the battle of Camlann is the official "end" to the Age of Gods, even if it was in decline for a long time before), and slew a dragon and other Phantasmal Beasts in lore. What's the issue?

And the grail has played GM since Apocrypha summoning Ruler, making the two-team system. It's a system with rules and laws set in place by humans, and has shown to be somewhat cognizant (the Grail chooses the masters itself).

Henry Howard
Henry Howard

Her popularity power ensures in games she's never too far behind.

That and the VN came before everything else.

Josiah James
Josiah James

Saber's strength lies in her balanced stats and abilities as well as possessing the second-most powerful direct-damage Noble Phantasm and the absolute most powerful defensive Noble Phantasm.

If you go by the numbers, she's certainly one of the strongest. That's just by the numbers though. She's an excellent all-arounder, but she has no unique abilities like other Servants. She's good at just about everything, but she's not an absolute specialist of any one thing.

Robert King
Robert King

Full disclaimer, I can't into moonrunes myself so I'm only restating what's been said in yesterday's threads about the reveal and from the Wiki. He might have gotten them from some "glitch" in the system, maybe his minmaxing Master manipulated the Grail somehow.
At any rate Strange Fake is full of things way more bizarre than an exchange of Noble Phantasms. Enkidu was summoned by a goddamned wolf, a dreaming girl summons the concept of "Pestilence" as Rider, and True Assassin has Presence Concealment so high his own Master can't detect him.

We don't even really know what SF's Grail is or how it works, other than the ritual being (roughly) based on the Einzbern's model.

Parker Flores
Parker Flores

Seibah had the disadvantage that her two masters were shit
Kirrystu didn't care about her or the HGW
Shirou is a shit magus and thus she had shit stats.

Thomas Parker
Thomas Parker

If archer/avenger is heracles, who is true rider?

Mason Sanchez
Mason Sanchez

the absolute most powerful defensive Noble Phantasm.
See

Luis Bennett
Luis Bennett

Fate Saber has it, but she literally can't be summoned as a Servant rendering it moot.

How does it feel knowing that despite being a shit Master who can only grant her decent-ish stats, the Saber summoned by Shirou in the Fate route is the strongest of all Sabers?

Benjamin Robinson
Benjamin Robinson

Hippolyta, of course.
They actually both have a copy of her girdle.

Ryder Barnes
Ryder Barnes

Saber's placement hasn't really changed. She's always been upper tier among Servants, and that hasn't changed. She's the most excellent jack-of-all-trades among all known Servants.

I'm more concerned with Gilgamesh's fall from grace. Once called the "Strongest Servant", the "Servant Killer" and "Humanity's Oldest King of Heroes". We know he's no longer the oldest because there are other Heroic Spirits older than her. We know he's not the strongest thanks to Solomon appearing to have greater firepower. If he had access to something that's strong against Solomon, then he might be able to retain his first two titles, but Gate of Babylon is so broad and vague that it's impossible to tell one way or the other.

Camden Smith
Camden Smith

Grand Saber
Garden of Avalonwank
Lancer Arturia
MHX with double Excalibur who is secretly Arturia

No, she's part of the powercrept.

Brandon Brown
Brandon Brown

Archer Herakles isn't too impressive. His stats got higher because of the grail mud according to his sheet. He's only tough because he's an Avenger now.

Jaxson Rodriguez
Jaxson Rodriguez

So if a random person happened to kill gilgamesh on accident by hitting him with thier truck, that person is the strongest servant until they die from some disease and then the doctor that botched the surgery becomes the strongest servant?

Aiden Garcia
Aiden Garcia

He certainly has something down there, he just can't be assed to bring out

Evan Anderson
Evan Anderson

Don't forget Santa Arturia Alter.

Thomas Kelly
Thomas Kelly

The inexorable march of time is the strongest servant

Mason Flores
Mason Flores

Solomon was born as the wisest and Gilgamesh is a drooling idiot.

Ayden Howard
Ayden Howard

t. Takeuchi

Chase James
Chase James

To be fair, Solomon soloed the entire Nasuverse outside Chaldea that was on Earth. It's an unfair match.

Nolan Scott
Nolan Scott

(OP)
You're mistaking a person's perception or opinion in-story with a fact of the universe. Caster from Fate/Zero said with 100% certainty many times that Saber was Joan of Arc, but that doesn't mean she is.

Wyatt Rivera
Wyatt Rivera

How is someone other than Angra Mainyu able to become Avenger? I was under the impression that only Anti-Heroes can become Avengers, and according to Nasu, there is no such thing as a "true" Anti-Hero, so because of some strange voo-doo logic, that only leaves Angra Mainyu.

Levi Lewis
Levi Lewis

That was weird actually. She is supposed to be saberface, yet she only shares being blonde. Much better that way but still, isn't Gilles her number one fanboy? and he confused her with the first english woman he saw

Isaac White
Isaac White

Shirou, with a fraction of Archer's power, managed to beat saber in a sword fight

With Saber deliberately reducing her stats to his level to make it solely a contest of skill. Even then, she kicked his fucking ass all over the place and Shirou only won through using a cheap shot technique. Even then even then, he failed to actually kill her.

Archer has enough weapons to go against Gil and win

He would never win against Gil in a direct battle.

Can kill Berserker 7 times and would have won had he killed the master instead

He killed him six times, and no, he never had the opportunity to target Ilya because Berserker was on his ass the whole time. If Archer had taken even a second to draw his bow, he would have been instantly skewered or torn to shreds. That's the cost of engaging Berserker in melee.

Can kill Caster
Can kill Assassin

The weakest Servants? Yeah, real impressive beating them.

Can match Lancer with both fighting seriously

Nice bait. Lancer kicked his ass to the curb from start to finish. Archer only managed to survive against him in both fights.

David Stewart
David Stewart

Prelati summons Prelati and shit talk about Gilles

Daniel Diaz
Daniel Diaz

You shut up. Shirou is the strongest servant ever thanks to his amazing eyebrows and that's final

Noah Harris
Noah Harris

Those eyebrows are pretty strong, I guess.

Nathaniel Brown
Nathaniel Brown

Santa Alter
Literally powered by Christmas Joy

Is Santa Alter the most powerful of all Servants?

Jaxon Stewart
Jaxon Stewart

lost his divinity
now gil can't cheese him with chains anymore
And on top of that he got some sweet compensation in return, I'm calling rigged.

Joshua Mitchell
Joshua Mitchell

Then how come Archer got his ass kicked by Gil and didn't beat him when they fought?
In the VN (original material), Archer was at 10-15% prana left before fighting Shirou. Afterwards probably less (and stabbed).
Gil basically shot him at Shirou and Archer took the hit for him.

Archer would win if Gil didn't know his power and looked down on him(less likely than shirou because he's a servant).

Carson Brooks
Carson Brooks

u are the magician
that why u need people tank for u
this make saber thing is strongest

Chase Hill
Chase Hill

No, Gil said civilization as ancient as Sumer had NPs he might not have even prototypes of, like Karna's spear.

Also, Egypt had a rival active civilization around the time Gil was born so some Egyptian heroes might have NPs Gil doesn't have.

Also, even if Gil had the prototype of Gae Bolg, it is inferior to Cu's Gae Bolg.

Gil is just an owner, not a master.

Wyatt Murphy
Wyatt Murphy

Gil knows of Archer's power, he just think it's shit because his stuff are bootlegs.

Chase Harris
Chase Harris

what a beautiful duwang

Parker Diaz
Parker Diaz

Neither Gil nor Archer would ever think to use the same Noble Phantasm as their opponent for precisely that reason.

Adult Gil's a dumbass, but if it were Child Gil, he'd accurately analyze his opponent, bring out the appropriate Noble Phantasms that would have the greatest effect on them and strike them down immediately.

Ayden Bennett
Ayden Bennett

Gilgamesh has Ea, arguably the most powerful offensive Noble Phatasm

Nasu said Buddha's NP has the highest damage rating out all NPs introduced in Fate so far.

Nasu said the damage points would be around 1 million at the very least for Buddha's NP.

Nasu also said he needs a Michael Bay budget to properly animate Buddha's NP which he tried to accomplish with the budget he had.

Eli Wilson
Eli Wilson

Nasu said Gil was only Servant Killer only when it involved "proper" heroic spirits yet Fate is full of IMPROPER heroic spirits.

Benjamin Foster
Benjamin Foster

Nasu said Buddha's NP has the highest damage rating out all NPs introduced in Fate so far.
This was before Garden of Avalon and FGO.

Levi Torres
Levi Torres

In the Fuyuki Holy Grail War system, Avenger was a Class container created for Angra Mainyu.
Other Holy Grail War systems do not necessarily adhere to the Fuyuki system (eg. Assassin being limited to Hassan), and Fate/Strange Fake certainly does not with all it's bizarre shit.

The real reason is that it's been reworked into a "Heroic Spirit of Vengeance" Class. (Anti-)Heroes defined by revenge may be summoned as Avenger. Grand Order pioneered this with The Count of Monte Christo.
Corrupted Heracles/Alcides isn't a true full Avenger, but he's justifiable in that aspect of revenge. Even assuming he doesn't have memories from the Throne of Heroes of the events of UBW, his legends are full of examples of him being screwed over unjustly by his enemies, up to and including Gods, and he was known as a very passionate man who had a capacity for both great kindness and a vicious temper. Combine that baggage with corruption from Grail Mud and it's not hard to see how his alignment could slip to Chaotic Evil.

Hudson Perry
Hudson Perry

Buddha shouldn't even be a Servant, fucking hell.
Karna's spear
God I hate this so much, another weapon that's supposed to be an one-shot kill but it actually never managed to kill anyone.

Xavier Green
Xavier Green

It never made sense for Gil to be the oldest hero anyways since Gil was born hundreds of years after the Great Flood and in his very Epic, Gil meets Prototype Noah who he tried to get the herb of immortality from and Prototype Noah was a human that predated the Great Flood.

Gil is not even the first king of humanity.

If you ever look up the Sumerian King List, the first king of humanity had Prototype Adam as a subordinate.

That is how fucking ancient the first king of humanity was, so fucking ancient that the first ever man serves him.

Owen Morgan
Owen Morgan

He lost his divinity and everything he gained after becoming a god. So due to all the shenanigans, he lost god hand, whatever stats came with his divine body, whatever NP he gained after becoming a god, eye of the mind (false) and bravery went down to Rank E.

In return, he got access to King's Order that lets him use the NPs he had as a human, Avenger class skill Rank A and Enkidu chains won't work. Turns out he also has eye of the mind (true) after losing the instinct version because of his experience so it's a good trade. Stats and god hand don't mean shit if Gil can cheese you with chains.

Kevin Myers
Kevin Myers

Buddha's NP stacks. The older the civilization the enemy was from, the higher the damage since life and rebirth and all that jazz with the Buddhism shit.

Everyone is Buddha.

Also, the 7 Sins don't affect Buddha at all.

Eli Rivera
Eli Rivera

With Saber deliberately reducing her stats
[citation needed]
she kicked his fucking ass all over the place
*kept up with her despite being half dead, losing his mind, and his body literally turning to steel
He would never win against Gil in a direct battle.
Makes perfect sense that the better version of the guy who beat Gil could not beat Gil.
vs Berserker
Deliberately avoided killing Illya in the crossfire and did not invoke Unlimited Blade Works. Still killed him six times.

Juan Harris
Juan Harris

Gil thinks he knows of Archer's power is making fakes
In reality Archer makes a world full of fakes.
harddrive with all pirated porn > online stream of originals

Problem is Gil is less likely to let Archer pull off his UBW than shirou.

Logan Martin
Logan Martin

Has any NP actually lived up to it's hype? Pretty much anything that had an "always does X" effect failed at one point in this clusterfuck.

Jace Martin
Jace Martin

Archer can canonically spam faster than Gil who has to unsheathe his NPs

Christopher King
Christopher King

Shirou, with a fraction of Archer's power, managed to beat saber in a sword fight
She lived, he didn't
Archer has enough weapons to go against Gil and win
Mostly because UBW has a very specific advantage on Gil
Can kill Berserker 7 times and would have won had he killed the master instead
See above, UBW (not the RM, just tracing stuff) is a good way to get around Godhand. And he never had a chance to kill the loli from the start
Can kill Caster
Not impressive. Medea's shit in direct combat. Literally every FSN servant can easily beat her.
Can kill Assassin
Citation needed. Kojiro's a bigger sword autist than he is.
Can match Lancer with both fighting seriously
No, he lost to Lancer. He was only let him go when he realized he was going to betray Caster. Also got frozen by Rider.
somehow not the strongest
He's really not. He's low tier and Batmans himself to mid level.

Jackson Thompson
Jackson Thompson

Avalon always did its job.

Rule Breaker was extremely effective as well.

Jacob King
Jacob King

Nasu still hasn't showed us what Medea's dragon looks like even though it is just a mid tier dragon, I want to see what a Greek dragon looks like.

Brandon Long
Brandon Long

Only part I can disagree on is
Not impressive. Medea's shit in direct combat. Literally every FSN servant can easily beat her.

I think if they had a one on one Kojiro has no chance, hell I still wanna know how he held back Berserker at all.

Brody Walker
Brody Walker

FYI, using UBW on Herc would be the absolute worst tactic he could do. It just gives him a beeline to turn Archer into paste.

Nathaniel Young
Nathaniel Young

Nasu already said that Medea used gravity magic on Hercules and that Fake Assassin prevented Hercules from walking up the stairs as long as they could.

So making Hercules extremely heavy was how they held back Berserker while Fake Assassin kept spamming his katana.

Leo Harris
Leo Harris

What are you even talking about?
Are you one of those idiots who thinks Archer has to stay perfectly still and not defend himself while invoking it?

Zachary Barnes
Zachary Barnes

I think if they had a one on one Kojiro has no chance, hell I still wanna know how he held back Berserker at all.
He had the high ground, Berserker had no chance.

Nathan Jenkins
Nathan Jenkins

Still seems like he'd have no reason to retreat, unless Caster pulls some divine level shit he's just gonna tank it all and that sharp stick shouldn't even register as a threat to him.

Noah Richardson
Noah Richardson

Gil is less likely to let Archer pull off his UBW than Shirou
I don't know how this meme started
Like Gil is going to treat some unknown chucklefuck mongrel any different just because they're a Servant

Nolan Roberts
Nolan Roberts

No, you dingus, UBW turns the terrain into a barren field and Herc can just charge at Archer while shrugging off his sword spam.

Thomas Moore
Thomas Moore

Hercules has no concept of patience.

Meanwhile, Illya is a little girl who is prone to getting bored or frustrated.

Jack Walker
Jack Walker

No, I'm saying an empty field is the perfect battlefield for Berserker. Archer survived as long as did by using the castle to stifle his movement. Same deal with Saber leading him to the cemetery. Without that, Herc would've soundly trounced him from the start.

Lincoln Lee
Lincoln Lee

I could have sworn there was something about this in one of the recent UBW booklet things.

Jaxon Butler
Jaxon Butler

I wouldn't write Archer off so soundly, he might be able to use a few swords with certain traits to trip up Berserker. Hit him with something that targets divinity and get back to range.

Nathaniel Scott
Nathaniel Scott

Like Gil is going to treat some unknown chucklefuck mongrel any different just because they're a Servant
1. it's not a meme
2. it's supported by the fact in that gil's goal was to kill shirou/archer after their fight because he felt threatened

Parker Adams
Parker Adams

gil's goal was to kill shirou/archer after their fight because he felt threatened
Gil did not even remotely consider either a threat until it was way too late. He gives so little of a shit about them that he lets them get away in Einzbern manor because he doesn't want his clothes to get dirty.
Shirou pulls a goddamned Reality Marble out of his ass and Gil STILL doesn't take him seriously until he's already overwhelmed.

Jacob Howard
Jacob Howard

Man UBW is so under-utilized, people just think of sword spamming and forget about its massive potential for utility, this also goes for Nasu.

Nicholas Reyes
Nicholas Reyes

Didn't Nasu state that he didn't see Shirou worthy of him being serious of so that's why he lost? He refused to use Ea because it would smear his actual worthy enemies who fell against him when he wasn't fucking around. He would rather die before taking Shirou seriously.

Easton Collins
Easton Collins

there are people ITT who think Saber isnt the absolute strongest servant
beat Gil 1v1 in a serious fight
Gil can literally destroy planets like its his day job
Niggas, ya'll trippin on some serious shizzle
My waifu is top tier

Isaiah Diaz
Isaiah Diaz

Yes. Gilgamesh's massive ego is his defining character trait.
Gilfags get extremely upset when he loses because of it because they're mongoloids who do not understand the concept of a fatal flaw.

Gil can literally destroy planets

Justin Robinson
Justin Robinson

Fuck the Saber wank and fuck the Saber class wank. Give any Assassin to any master with half a brain and they'll have the war in the bag.

Juan Butler
Juan Butler

"Any" Assassin?

Robert Hernandez
Robert Hernandez

It wasn't just his ego, it was his way to honor his worthy opponents. He didn't consider Shirou this, so he never fought him very seriously. It's not that Shirou sliced his arm before he could reach Ea, Nasu revised that (that's why the animu includes that detailed), it's that Gilgamesh preferred to die over using Ea on a mongrel because he didn't deserve it.

Jose Edwards
Jose Edwards

Might have to be a bit more liberal with the command spells but it's workable.

Ethan Bell
Ethan Bell

Assassins aren't all that. Those with strong Instinct like Saber would be able to sense them coming. Maybe not pinpoint their exact location, but seeing as how their stealth drops a rank the moment they attack, it's enough. There were assassins in King Arthur's court too, but none of them succeeded.

Plus, what's any Assassin going to do to Herakles? Destroy his heart? Yeah, that's one life down. What about the other eleven?

Cameron Jackson
Cameron Jackson

Herakles can be summoned as Assassin. Assassins also target the Masters.

Daniel Russell
Daniel Russell

Fake Assassin from Strange Fake might have enough ways to kill him.
And there's always the "kill the Master" option

Xavier Myers
Xavier Myers

Thats why I said the war specifically, the master is always the weakest link.

Hudson Russell
Hudson Russell

Herakles has crazy instinct, man. The moment one of them tried to kill Ilya, he'd materialize and try to wipe them out.

The thing about Heroic Spirits is that they're gods among men. They overcome incredible odds and become legends. If they couldn't stop an assassination, then what good are they?

Nathan Kelly
Nathan Kelly

You realize "Herakles" is 'Archer' (actually Avenger) in Strange Fake and Fake Assassin is his direct counter, right? Not sure why are you bringing up FSN as if that shit was the end of the franchise.

Jack (not loli) also has the advantage of having Flat as his Master. So he gets plot armor EX.

Colton Gray
Colton Gray

Doesn't need to be particularly flashy, one well shot projectile is all it would take. Distract the servant for a moment and you've got the chance.

Aiden Turner
Aiden Turner

she was actually in love with him

What the fuck?

Charles Flores
Charles Flores

the master is always the weakest link.

Incorrect, in F/SN they show clearly that sometimes the master can pull their weight and end up being the "stronger" of the two. Caster played support for her master because he was good enough to fight Saber head on with some support magic on his hands.

Owen Thomas
Owen Thomas

Kuzuki was nothing without Caster's buffs. He went down in one second after she died.

Josiah Davis
Josiah Davis

The Master is the "weak link" because the Servant (generally) relies on the Master for their existence and the Master has the power to Command the Servant. Putting the King in check can win the game, so to speak.

Samuel Hughes
Samuel Hughes

And thats such a desperate move I cant even really understand why they did it. Even if he's buffed any attack that connects will end them both.

Zachary Nelson
Zachary Nelson

he so strong he lost to shiro of all people or was eaten by the worm slut.

Nathaniel Long
Nathaniel Long

He's the oldest hero because his story is the oldest heroic epic. Nobody ever said he was the first king, but he is the first hero to ascend to the throne and become a Heroic Spirit.

...Actually wouldn't Enkidu be the first HS since he died first?

Nasuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

Angel Myers
Angel Myers

Which Saber would win in a fight and become King of Sabers?

Zachary Clark
Zachary Clark

She killed her husbando by accident didn't she?

Aaron Rodriguez
Aaron Rodriguez

Gawain and Lancelot are better knights
worse stats that Arthur
is Arthur Nasu's waifu?

Matthew Smith
Matthew Smith

Yeah, that's the zombie of her husbando.

Elijah Foster
Elijah Foster

Arthur or Arturia? Arthur was way better than any of his knights, they were afraid of him so they nerfed him as a plot reason why he doesn't always fight full power.

Jayden Bailey
Jayden Bailey

Why kill him in the first place?

Noah Garcia
Noah Garcia

He was an enemy Master and it was an accident. Guy is literally Shirou without a plot armor. Hassan of Serenity's body is poison to anyone who touches her.

Evan Harris
Evan Harris

shirou without the plot armor
I can see how he can die without being killed.

Ryder Bailey
Ryder Bailey

Cause your poor bitch ass wont commission a translator

Asher Lopez
Asher Lopez

Technically, he died but then returned to life as zombie courtesy of Doctor P.

Aaron Scott
Aaron Scott

It can be explained, even if the explanation is shitty. "First heroic spirit" does NOT have to mean "Heroic Spirit that died first", even if it seems like it does. It could easily be that the throne didn't accept anyone at first, but Gil was so OP that his death literally "created" or maybe just "awakened" the throne. Then, the older spirits like Enkidu retroactively were added into the throne. It could be done, seeing as how the Throne is seemingly outside of time as we know it with Servant Emiya being summoned to times before his death. Gil's death is the "Start" of the time of the Throne, and anything before it in our time is technically after it in throne time.

Lincoln Myers
Lincoln Myers

Look I don't give a shit about powerlevels but I need to express that Lancer Arturia Alter is a concept so retarded that I actually lose part of my soul every time I see her in my supports. If I ever got her I'd burn her.

Adrian Bailey
Adrian Bailey

Best Arthur

Gabriel Phillips
Gabriel Phillips

can summon blades from any direction
only fires in a single straight line
refuses to take any fight seriously
burn her with your hot dick?

Jose Murphy
Jose Murphy

Gil's Master is a loli
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Easton Richardson
Easton Richardson

Still he tried to pull Ea out moments before his death to use it on Shirou. Just admit it Gil has just a giant ego which is one of his fatal flaw.

Carter Thomas
Carter Thomas

There's way worse offenders in G/O to pick than Shakespeare.

Easton Nelson
Easton Nelson

I love how if she was a 'he' nobody would call her overpowered.

Is Saitama 'super powercreeped'?

Camden Gomez
Camden Gomez

No, he's Medaka without the meta plot.

Evan Ross
Evan Ross

Your reading comprehension sucks.
OP is saying the the VN calls seibah the strongest, but she could get steamrolled by the newer servants in the series.

Parker Bennett
Parker Bennett

Why is king Arthur a girl?

Brayden Myers
Brayden Myers

Yeah, that's his acknowledgement that Shirou had managed to do it. That he was able to force him to pull out Ea.

Lincoln Thomas
Lincoln Thomas

She's not in love with him. She just feels terrible about murdering him.

Chase Turner
Chase Turner

gil
honor
sasuga gilfags

Thomas Murphy
Thomas Murphy

pretty sure the only reason she doesn't have Avalon in go is because she would be even more op if you didn't need to use a craft essence to heal her

you have to remember that everything is wrong in games with gameplay, like nero being ezmode even tho tamamo was canonically more powerful than nero and emiya

Adrian Edwards
Adrian Edwards

Yeah base gilg

Julian Foster
Julian Foster

how often is "kill the master" a viable option in these Grail Wars anyway? I can't think of any instance where the Master is offed because the Servant is too incredibly OP, except for maybe F/Z Lancer and Berserker, and there are extenuating circumstances for both

James Brown
James Brown

pretty certain if seibah could use all her canon shit as a saber class the fuck if anyones gonna be able to do shit.
especially if she could use full power excaliber or that bullshit super spear of hers as well as has avalon.

Hunter Cook
Hunter Cook

Kiritsugu can control time. Kiritsugu is strongest Servant.

Christopher Phillips
Christopher Phillips

It must be a blessing being a saberfag. All of her april fool joke and random sketch end up got a real biography and story and shit.

Samuel Hill
Samuel Hill

He would rather die before taking Shirou seriously.
Except for the fact that when he thought Shirou was about to kill him, he tried to pull out Ea just before Shirou cut off his arm.

Caleb Perry
Caleb Perry

Faldeus is going to attempt doing that to Herc's master in the next volume of SF while Herc is busy fighting Jack the Ripper. It's far too early for Herc or Jack to die just yet and it's the perfect opportunity to show off the capabilities of what could be the most competent one of all the Hassans so I wouldn't be too surprised if the assassination attempt actually works this time.

Brody Thompson
Brody Thompson

Honestly being an Arturiafag is kinda eh right now. Sure there are all these Saberclones, but Arturia is kind of getting pushed into the back, Type-Moon Ace even acknowledges with this and jokingly calls her "old blue". Rin got UBW, Sakura's got HF, all Saber's got properly going for her lately is GOA.

Caleb Young
Caleb Young

At the very least, seems like she's never dropping out of the rankings.

Blake Gray
Blake Gray

I've always wondered why that crossguard is so thick.

Is it a metaphor for how Seiba likes it or does she really not care to use that thing like the sledgehammer it is?

Angel Brown
Angel Brown

Imagine if she went half-swording with that thing.

Dylan Cox
Dylan Cox

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFoJVybJTys&feature=youtu.be&t=108

Asher Stewart
Asher Stewart

Entire Nasuverse

No he didn't. There is nothing stating the world is dead. Avalon is fine because Merlin talks about being in the garden, and that's where the soul of the planet is.

Lucas Murphy
Lucas Murphy

She was always shit, who cares of she gets shafted as new characters are introduced.

Angel Martin
Angel Martin

Doc P is doing what he can after he fucks up hard. Doc P is a good guy. Chaotic good.

Justin Miller
Justin Miller

wait till HF user

Jose Cruz
Jose Cruz

Was there ever any doubt?

Jace Bell
Jace Bell

What would Seibah do when she meets Richard I?

Aiden Morales
Aiden Morales

Richard would probably cum right then and there. Saber would either be embarrassed/not understanding at being revered, or mortified that this guy can make Excalibur out of anything

Elijah James
Elijah James

As if HF will make the big difference, Rin never reached above Saber during UBW. If anything, people will just cum over Saber Alter.

Dylan Sanders
Dylan Sanders

Make blonde babies.

Dominic Harris
Dominic Harris

To pander neckbeards

Carter Wilson
Carter Wilson

you nuke our cities,we nuke your tropes

Nathan Gray
Nathan Gray

Will they be plain like Ayaka?

Wyatt Sanchez
Wyatt Sanchez

It's Gilgamesh's fault

All the "totally not a fanfic guise hehe" spin-offs basically created overwanked Gilgamesh clones with "I'm invincible fuck you" powers because Fate is full of powerlevel babbies who cream themselves when a servant is OP.

Jace Gomez
Jace Gomez

towel over his face
I still can't get over this, and I probably never will.

Ian Allen
Ian Allen

Ayakais not a natural blonde she dyed her hair in FSF and Ayaka hates Richard fuck that cunt.

Jonathan Evans
Jonathan Evans

She's just annoyed by him. His energetic personality is probably obnoxious to her mellow self.

Nicholas Jones
Nicholas Jones

Did Prelati summon himself Solomon Style? Thought it was impossible unless they died, thats why no caster merlin

Parker Gray
Parker Gray

Saved her ass form assassin
Saber turn himself over in to the police to keep Ayaka from trouble.
What an ungrateful bitch, Saber should've just let her die by the hands of assassin.

Julian Green
Julian Green

himself
Wut?

Caleb Bell
Caleb Bell

Loli Prelati summons shota Prelati.

Wyatt Garcia
Wyatt Garcia

It's worse than any Servant with instict-based skills being able to see Assassins coming.

Even with A+ rank presence concealment, every Assassin has to reveal their presence in order to make an attack unless they have a noble phantasm or skill that buffs their presence concealment under certain conditions, like Jack.

That means that 90% of all Assassins are categorically incapable of actually pulling off an assassination.

Just look at when Assassin tried to kill Waver, and Iskander just casually stopped it, and he's not even a strong fighter type Servant.

Brayden Green
Brayden Green

Enkidu isn't a Heroic Spirit, he was an artificial being without a soul.

The only reason Enkidu is around in Strange/Fake is because Fake servants are not real servants. All of them have some weird shit going on, and Enkidu is the same.

Eli Jackson
Eli Jackson

Shiki in Melty Blood has been extremely buffed in every way in order to be able to fight literally anyone in it.

Elijah Rivera
Elijah Rivera

Isn't Assassin actually built to take out the Masters rather than the Servants?

James Gray
James Gray

[citation needed]

It's fucking obvious, you utter retard. If Saber wanted to just kill Shirou, she would have the same way she killed Archer.

*kept up with her despite being half dead, losing his mind, and his body literally turning to steel

Kept up with her while she was holding back so that it could be a contest of skill, at the strongest point Shirou ever was in the entire Fate/Stay Night visual novel. That's canon. All those negative effects didn't matter because Archer's arm was doing all the thinking and fighting for him.

Makes perfect sense that the better version of the guy who beat Gil could not beat Gil.

Shirou beat Gil by playing to his ego as a normal human being and a faker. Gilgamesh in CCC fights Archer at full power under Rin and completely destroys him.

Deliberately avoided killing Illya in the crossfire and did not invoke Unlimited Blade Works. Still killed him six times.

He didn't even have to deliberately avoid killing her. He never had the chance to. Berserker would have instantly killed him the moment he diverted his attention.

Buddha is technically a High Servant, not a normal Servant. His Divinity is too high to be summoned otherwise.

Aaron Flores
Aaron Flores

That's what user was talking about. A Master will always have their Servant with them, so those points still appply

Daniel Watson
Daniel Watson

It would be possible if the Servant left their master alone for an extended period of time, but that's nobody's strategy ever because a master is defenseless against not only Assassins but every single Servant out there unless their Servant is with them at all times.

Even when they aren't fighting, a master's Servant is almost always just in their immaterial form hovering mere feet away and more than capable of defending them against most Assassins.

The only exception so far would be True Assassin from Strange/Fake and Jack the Ripper, both of whom have buffed Presence Concealments that allow them to properly assassinate a bitch.

Then again, Jack still never pulled it off because plot.

Austin King
Austin King

Saved her ass from assassin
Saber turn himself over in to the police to keep her out of trouble.
What an ungrateful bitch..

Ethan Collins
Ethan Collins

There can only be 1

Cooper Myers
Cooper Myers

For gameplay purpose all characters got balanced sure, but we talk about story mode not versus

Gavin Gutierrez
Gavin Gutierrez

Even in the story he's way stronger than he should be, since he's fighting opponents that would give Arceuid and Ciel a hard time and beating them.

Charles Gonzalez
Charles Gonzalez

How good is Eye of the Mind True? Emiya Zero Lancer, and True Archer all have it right?

If it's just gotten through lots of combat experience and training, why don't like way more servants have it?

Also, how does Emiya compare to other Archers when it comes to actually use a bow and arrow? All the descriptions of his bow skill and his Clairvoyance make it sound like he was pretty legit.

Brody Stewart
Brody Stewart

Story mode is canon and there's nothing there about any boost aside Sion turning off his limiter when he fought Ciel.

Elijah Campbell
Elijah Campbell

Melty Blood is not canon. It's its own little timeline where various events occur that do not actually occur post Tsukihime.

Nolan Torres
Nolan Torres

Like whom? Nrvnqsr? Even in the novel Shiki at his best is faster than Nrvnqsr who is easily one of the strongest Melty characters.

Caleb Wilson
Caleb Wilson

Melty Blood is not canon

Sure thing bro. Just like Fate/Extra, Grand Order, Strange Fake aren't canon.

Nathaniel Baker
Nathaniel Baker

It would be possible if the Servant left their master alone for an extended period of time, but that's nobody's strategy ever because a master is defenseless against not only Assassins but every single Servant out there unless their Servant is with them at all times.

Doesn't Tokiomi do that in Zero? Well, not necessarily by choice, but Gilgamesh basically roams around as much as he wants while Tokiomi is holed up in a basement.

And Kariya usually sends or lets Berserker run on in, while he remains nearby but not extremely close.

AND Kerry assigned Seiba to Irisviel, rather than keeping her near him.

Henry Collins
Henry Collins

Melty Blood is not canon.
Dude

Hunter Barnes
Hunter Barnes

It's not just lots of combat experience and training. It's coolness under fire, LOTS of combat experience, deductive reasoning, situational awareness, thinking on your feet, split-second decisions, and several other skills besides, all bundled up into a single talent.

Julian King
Julian King

Eye of the Mind (True) is very powerful in the sense that it allows a weaker fighter to find ways of escaping danger and putting up a better fight against stronger opponents. It's essentially Batman mode, where you play out a fight in your head in a hundred different ways and take the path that is most advantageous to you. It's the reason EMIYA was able to survive against Lancer in the second fight, because he cross-referenced his prior experience of Lancer's fighting style with ways of tricking him into only slightly injuring him every time he got a chance to kill him outright by creating 'false' openings.

For Zero Lancer, it was most manifested in his way of tricking Arturia into taking off her armor so that he could get a solid blow with Gae Dearg on her.

It's usually portrayed as a sort of trickiness that makes it difficult for even stronger fighters to defeat them, or that even gives them a chance at victory in otherwise impossible conditions.

Most Servants have combat experience in spades, but Eye of the Mind represents a specific application of it into forming predictions and making the enemy move how you want them to. This is a very difficult thing to master; for all the amazing, incredible boxing champions that there have been, Muhammed Ali is the only true example of someone in real life with this skill. It takes brainpower that a lot of Servants either do not have, or don't care to use.

Cu for example fights through skill and emotion, because he finds fighting fun. He's probably smart enough to develop an Eye of the Mind, but it's just not his style. Same goes for Achilles, Hector, Arturia, Lancelot, etc.

Jonathan Sanders
Jonathan Sanders

EMIYA is not the weakest Archer we've seen. He's definitely stronger than Robin Hood. We've never really seen him get into a duel of archery, though, so it's hard to say.

Chiron is superior to him in every stat, every skill, and everything except Noble phantasm, where Archer has way more variety and versatility at hand with UBW, plus at least one high firepower attack (Caladbolg) that Chiron just does not have. Even so, Chiron would likely outmaneuver and outplay Archer due to having higher ranked Eye of the Mind and higher ranked Clairvoyance, to the point that those skills combined allow him to see the near future. His range is also way higher than Archer's thanks to his Clairvoyance, and Chiron has almost every skill in existence for versatility's sake, so Archer might actually have a lot of trouble against him. Chiron's NP is relatively low powered for its rank, but it's a sneak attack that Archer would not be able to avoid unless he's seen it before.

Atalanta again has better stats overall, but less versatility in her noble phantasms than Archer. In her specialty terrain, the forest, she would probably outstrip him handily, but outside of that, it's unclear who is the superior archer. If it came to a melee brawl, she would probably win if she uses the Calydonian Boar NP.

Arjuna would naturally completely destroy Archer, since Archer can't compete with Arjuna's firepower or skill. He might be able to trick him a bit, since Arjuna is a fairly naive sort, though. Arjuna's Clairvoyance is the same rank, but it has a plus modifier that allows it to surpass the C rank every now and then.

Isaac Hughes
Isaac Hughes

It should be noted that Eye of the Mind (True)'s principal weakness is that it relies on having information about the opponent to draw from. Unlike the False version, it will not automatically trigger to protect the Servant from a threat that they do not recognize. You can't properly plan out a fight if you know nothing about your opponent, or if they have an ace up their sleeve that you're clueless about, which would throw your entire prediction off.

It's still possible to adjust in such situations, since it allows for calm analysis and prediction even in dire circumstances, but it does lose its effectiveness even so.

Mental interference is also a problem, as Eye of the Mind (True) is reliant on having a clear head to think through the situation. It loses functionality the more a servant is suffering from mental interference, like spells that target the mind, illusions, fear, shock, anger, etc.

Colton Martin
Colton Martin

Arash is also stronger than Emiya but if he pull out caladbolg II Arash would be forced to use Stella and that means double ko.

Joseph Ward
Joseph Ward

It's fucking obvious
I think you mean it's your totally baseless headcanon with zero factual support at all in the goddamned VN

Shirou beat Gil by playing to his ego as a normal human being and a faker
And Gil considers Shirou and Archer equally beneath him.

Gilgamesh in CCC fights Archer at full power under Rin and completely destroys him.
CCC Gilgamesh is a completely different character. His ego is far more tempered being summoned into the Mooncell, having an agreeable Master, and not being corrupted by the Grail Mud.
Regardless of personality, of course Gilgamesh could kill Shirou or Archer easily if he's not holding anything back.
But as soon as either of them set up Unlimited Blade Works he's already dead.

He never had the chance to.
He easily could have. How is Berserker going to kill him and protect Illya from Unlimited Blade Works at the same time? It's an even faster version of Gate of Babylon, which you may remember kept Herc plenty busy.

Jonathan Ross
Jonathan Ross

Tokiomi didn't have much choice in the matter.

Kariya does stay near enough that Berserker could come and rescue him if he's attacked, although he usually stays hidden so it shouldn't be an issue.

Kerry's whole switcheroo plan wouldn't have worked if he didn't have Seiba with Iri at all times. Even so, he was taking a major risk - imagine if Assassin had seen him in the warehouse and killed him right then and there.

Ayden Sanders
Ayden Sanders

I think you mean it's your totally baseless headcanon with zero factual support at all in the goddamned VN

Every time you start shouting secondary the moment you realize you can't win any other way. If you had read the VN, you'd know full well that Saber Alter is too powerful for Archer to beat because they actually fought and he literally got killed by her in an instant, without her so much as breaking a sweat.

And Gil considers Shirou and Archer equally beneath him.

Now you need to cite a source, because Archer isn't a human like Shirou. Gil sneak attacked him specifically because he didn't consider him as beneath him as Shirou.

CCC Gilgamesh is a completely different character. His ego is far more tempered being summoned into the Mooncell, having an agreeable Master, and not being corrupted by the Grail Mud.
Regardless of personality, of course Gilgamesh could kill Shirou or Archer easily if he's not holding anything back.

Your whole argument was that Archer would beat Gilgamesh because Shirou did. Just admit that you were wrong, instead of moving goalposts.

He easily could have.

No, he could not have. He would never have even a split second to target Ilya because Berserker is faster than him, stronger than him, and on his ass from the moment the fight begins to the end.

How is Berserker going to kill him and protect Illya from Unlimited Blade Works at the same time? It's an even faster version of Gate of Babylon, which you may remember kept Herc plenty busy.

Everything in Unlimited Blade Works is ranked down. That means nothing that Archer casually traces will be able to penetrate Berserker's Godhand. He has to use specific weapons with + modifiers to reach or surpass A rank in order to wound and kill him. He absolutely would not be able to sword spam Berserker because those plus modifiers have to be specifically activated under specific conditions, and sword spam is not using any weapon to its fullest.

Jacob Foster
Jacob Foster

It's an even faster version of Gate of Babylon
That's misconception though. UBW is a counter to GoB because swords are already there without need to summon them. It gives headstart against GoB but actual swordspam isn't better.
Against a normal opponent this is little more than a somewhat troublesome ability, but it is the natural enemy of a certain King of Heroes.

Aiden Richardson
Aiden Richardson

Probably.

Alcides would mock Archer the same way he mocks Gil. The Nemean Lion pelt is simply Archer's natural enemy. I think Alcides also outranges Archer considerably - can't quite remember how far away he targeted Gil from but I remember it being a long distance.

Wyatt Sullivan
Wyatt Sullivan

Yes, she will eventually. It might not be there just yet but it's a question of time. G/O is a talentless, souless mobage made to get money from retards, as all mobages are. Being coherent with the universe and respecting previous works becomes second priority to money.

It's simply a question of time before everything about Fate gets retconned by a much less interesing powercreepfest because it's "canon". We clearly have reached the point where Death of the Author must be brought into consideration because at this point it's clear that Nasu sold himself and his series out.

Eli James
Eli James

So is Shirou the worst TYPE-MOON protagonist?

Matthew Rogers
Matthew Rogers

No, that Shiki "muh dick" Tohno.

Literally a nigger with chuuni powers.

Jordan Green
Jordan Green

The reason why It doesn't make sense, is because you are looking for logic in a porn game.

Luis Price
Luis Price

Fuck, imagine if Shiki was literally a nigger. That would actually be funny. And bring "rape the maids" to a whole new level.

Brody Russell
Brody Russell

nigger with chuuni powers.
Hey, that really is Shirou description.

Andrew Perry
Andrew Perry

Shirou is fine sometimes, but sometimes his personality and life choices can be grating.

He has really fucking cool powers though.
So that's a huge plus.

Jack Mitchell
Jack Mitchell

You don't have to defend Shirou. Only secondaries actually dislike Shirou and they're barely even human.

Grayson Davis
Grayson Davis

How strong do you have to be to accurately and effectively shoot a sword with a bow? How strong does the bow have to be for that? Archer's bow isn't magic, right? It's just future tech.

Why the hell does the future have super-bows? Modern bows are made entirely for competition rather than actual combat.

Nicholas Long
Nicholas Long

the Saber summoned by Shirou in the Fate route is the strongest of all Sabers?

More like the weakest. She got her ass kicked and put on defeats door multiple times,couldn't beat anyone but Fake Assassin without being cornered into revealing her NP and managed to obtain this terrible performance record in what is now easily the most casual grail war,featuring Masters who majorly treat the war as if it's a side project.

If you want to talk strongest then it's one of the Sabers from Extra. She's a fucking putz who mainly gets by on circumstance and luck. Even her coming out alive in the face of Berserker wouldn't of have happened if Shirou wasn't her master.

Ryder Moore
Ryder Moore

Source on Muhammed Ali displaying that? I know the guy's amazing but I've never heard that before

Christian Cruz
Christian Cruz

She's the only Saber with Avalon.

Ian Ross
Ian Ross

Who cares
Somebody will just steal that overrated piece of cardboard from her dinky hands anyway.

Henry Price
Henry Price

Speaking of Avalon, do UBW and HF Shirou/Saber realize they have Avalon?

Josiah Collins
Josiah Collins

Nope. UBW Shirou probably realizes it but doesn't do much about it, HF Shirou doesn't know at all.

Adrian Hall
Adrian Hall

can't quite remember how far away he targeted Gil from but I remember it being a long distance.
20 kilometers.

Anthony Baker
Anthony Baker

Doesn't that mean that UBW and HF Shirous are the best versions, as he doesn't have to die when is killed.

Elijah Long
Elijah Long

Did you even read the VN?
She has a shitty compatibility against Gil

No.
Zouken tought so.
Rin said that the Saber class is the strongest.

You too did not even read it.
Shirou has the best affinity to fight against him.
They are natural enemies.
He was eaten because, guess what, he got overconfident.
As fucking usual.

Ryan Moore
Ryan Moore

He does die when he's killed. If you slice off his head, he's dead. He can also be skewered if his swordheal goes haywire.

Also, the protection only exists for as long as he's connected to Saber. The moment he loses that connection, the effect is considerably lessened. If Saber disappears completely, then Avalon is functionally worthless once it's drained of mana.

Jack Harris
Jack Harris

Drake might have it, or at least has the ability to access it.

Henry Garcia
Henry Garcia

Fucking fanfiction writers keep forgetting this and it grates my nerves

James Phillips
James Phillips

Drake only goes to Avalon. She doesn't get a piece of the fairy land in the form of a scabbard. That was created for King Arthur's exclusive use. Shirou can only use it for as long as he's connected to Saber.

Nathan Lee
Nathan Lee

So that's one thing that puts Eye of the Mind (True) one step behind the false version right?

William Young
William Young

Is Alcides the most based servant introduced so far in Fate?

Xavier Fisher
Xavier Fisher

Correct. Nasu seems to have later aknowledged that he should have inverted the "Fake" and "True" tags in each.

Michael Thomas
Michael Thomas

Thanks.

There goes my story about the immortal duo Shirou and Deadpool. Set in 'Deadpool kills the nasuverse'.

ends day 1 when he hears of ORT

Jaxon Baker
Jaxon Baker

I don't remember this in the VN.

Logan Collins
Logan Collins

Shirou has tremendous talent for archery, but it's not quite at a superhuman level. As a Servant, his aim and strength receive buffs which help considerably, but he's no legendary archer.

His bow is good, being a custom-made future bow, but it's likely not comparable to magic bows of myth.

That leaves his arrows. Shirou probably has more versatility and power in his arrows than any other Archer by sheer virtue of the fact that he can create Noble Phantasms. Caladbolg II can literally twist space, Hrunting can chase the enemy as long as he has his eye on them, and he more than likely has other arrows that we haven't seen.Taking B-rank Noble Phantasm, raising its rank to A as a Broken Phantasm and shooting it off as a one-off bomb. No one else can do this. No one else is crazy enough to try, but Archer can create Noble Phantasms from nothing. This is a technique that's exclusive to him and him alone.

That's why Broken Phantasm is considered to be Archer's trump card, and not Unlimited Blade Works.

Carter Fisher
Carter Fisher

How strong would full powered Coubter guardian Emiya would be? He would shit on everyone right?

Ethan Clark
Ethan Clark

The rankings go Grand Servants (protect the planet) > Counter-Guardians (protect humanity) > Grail War Servants

James Peterson
James Peterson

Is acruid stronger than a grand servant?

Jacob Bell
Jacob Bell

Yes, she's a type, but a Grand Servant could definitely fuck her up. Don't forget that Garden of Avalon basically says Excalibur at its strongest (presumably when Arturia is summoned as Grand Saber) is anti-type rank.

Jace Cox
Jace Cox

Where do you get all this info?
I only read Tsukihime, Kagetsu Toohya, Tsukihime+, Melty blood and F/SN.
Now reading Fate/HA.
Are these in HA?

Luke Brown
Luke Brown

Depends on the enemy. Planetary backup works on single-target basis, so it doesn't take shit like Gilgamesh's treasury into account. Against a single overwhelming opponent, the planet would give Arcueid a +1 boost. So she'd be as strong as her enemy plus an additional boost modifier.

So if the Grand Servant only has one or two Noble Phantasms tied to him and has overwhelming power on his own, then Arcueid would win. But against someone like Gilgamesh whose strength lies entirely in his immense vault, she has the disadvantage.

Excalibur shows its true power against those that would threaten the very planet itself. As the embodiment of the planet, Arcueid is the furthest thing from that.

Except in a dream sequence in Current Code, but who knows how that works.

William Lopez
William Lopez

Garden of Avalon mostly. GOA states that Gaia will summon Arturia against a planetary-level threat and that Excalibur is Gaia's ultimate defensive measure made to protect Earth against any threats against the planet itself. As the only thing that could really threaten Earth would be a Type, Excalibur gets upgraded to anti-type rank.

Excalibur shows its true power against those that would threaten the very planet itself. As the embodiment of the planet, Arcueid is the furthest thing from that.

That's true, I'm just saying Excalibur has the potential of killing a full-power Arc. Obviously it wouldn't.

Charles Carter
Charles Carter

Is that a VN?
What else should I read after HA?
My next one is going to be Mahoyo.
Other type-Moon stuff?
I am just getting into it.

Connor Bailey
Connor Bailey

Except in a dream sequence in Current Code

You do realize that explicitly wasn't a dream, right?

I'm just saying Excalibur has the potential of killing a full-power Arc

Excalibur loses power when going up against those of good heart or fairies. It would probably be piss weak against Arc.

Connor Garcia
Connor Garcia

Garden of Avalon is a short story written by Nasu detailing Seiba's life in Camelot. It came with the UBW blu-ray boxset.

Potential in this sense means that since Excalibur is an anti-type weapon, by the process of deduction you'd think it could Arc too.
It can't because as you say, it wont fight people who are good of heart, but that's not the point.

Nicholas Morgan
Nicholas Morgan

The VN flat out calls her the strongest servant
Saber is the strongest servant class, because it gets an amazing class skill and has the highest base stat requirements

Chase Clark
Chase Clark

/v/

William Martinez
William Martinez

Except, Types are friends with each other.

Just like how the Moon befriended Gaia.

In Notes, the only reason the Types came was because Gaia summoned them.

Ordinarily, the Types are content to chill on their own planet.

Your post is pure fanfiction.

Austin Rodriguez
Austin Rodriguez

Newfag secondary detected.

Grand Servants can't even defeat Primate Murder.

Nasu only said they can manage to restrain Primate Murder

Colton Perez
Colton Perez

Since when is Arcueid a TYPE?

Jason Taylor
Jason Taylor

By the process of deduction, a dumb fuck like you would start to remember how Arc is a product of the cooperation between Gaia and the Moon so Excalibur would be useless against Arc.

Arc would be Type Earth under normal circumstances but unlike the other planets in our solar system who chose to produce a Type and nothing else, Gaia choose to produce things like trees, fish, animals and afterwards didn't have any spare energy left to create a Type so that is when the Moon stepped in and offered to help Gaia in creating a Type.

Cooper Collins
Cooper Collins

IIRC Arturia is the strongest Saber, which as it's considered the strongest class, put her up there. The only exceptions being rare cases like Gilgamesh, and I guess Grand Servants if we're going to count them.

Oliver Cook
Oliver Cook

That's headcanon. We don't know the reason Gaia couldn't make a Type.

Cameron Lopez
Cameron Lopez

since forever, have you never actually gotten around to read turkeyhandle?
go do the arc true route then proceed to cry harder.

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