Dragon Ball Super Powerlevels

Michael Morgan
Michael Morgan

According to Akira Toriyama: Super Saiyan Red is a 6, Beerus is a 10, and Goku is a 15.

If Super Saiyan Red was a 6, Beerus was a 10, and Whis was a 15. Wouldn't that make Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x10 greater than 60?

Goku is officially >6x more powerful than Beerus and >4x more powerful than Whis.

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http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/dragon-ball-super-manga-vol-1-tori-toyo-interview-web-version/
Alexander Taylor
Alexander Taylor

You're assuming they're multiples and not just set tiers.

Goku was strong enough to qualify for Tier 6, but Beerus is in Tier 10.

Assuming a Yamcha is Tier 2, being generous, it would seem weird to suggest a Super Saiyan God is only 3 times stronger than a Yamcha, wouldn't it?

So multiplying Goku's strength by 10 may not even bring him up to 7, let alone 10 and above.

Jacob Diaz
Jacob Diaz

It is unstable though.

Jordan Perry
Jordan Perry

If SSJ Red was Goku at 100% and Beerus only fought at 80% it could be assumed that 4 tiers is that 20% that Beerus has over Goku.

Jacob Jenkins
Jacob Jenkins

If that was the case then why did Whis say that if Vegita and Goku in Super Saiyan Blue form worked together they could defeat Beerus?

Brody Sanders
Brody Sanders

How strong is Black Goku?

Dominic Garcia
Dominic Garcia

Strong enough to rob a bank.

Jayden Green
Jayden Green

That's just some shit Toriyama said offhandedly.
The show clearly appears to be moving away from that powerlevel nonsense.
Most fights so far in Super have been resolved by gimmicks or "clever" tactics, as opposed to pure powerlevels like in DBZ.

I think they are not meant to surpass Beerus or Whis in strength.

Chase Hall
Chase Hall

But the creator of the show said it himself. Clearly a 60 powerlevel could defeat a 10 powerlevel character regardless of skill.

Blake Cruz
Blake Cruz

Wasn't Beerus only using like 2% of his power according to a convo between him and Wis after he battled Goku?

Leo Clark
Leo Clark

I thought it was 80%

Asher Ward
Asher Ward

He used 80% at the end.

Gabriel Kelly
Gabriel Kelly

That scale was from a post-BoGs interview.

Super, on the other hand, had a line comparing Goku and Vegeta to a tree, while Beerus was that giant tower in the middle of the planet.

Toriyama has also said in a recent interview that right now he has no plans for Goku surpassing Beerus.

Fusion maybe? Either way, that line was cut from Super too.

Hudson Evans
Hudson Evans

Don't bother this guy is retarded, he's been spamming this for a while now and won't listen to reason.

Nicholas Carter
Nicholas Carter

Won't listen to reason.
Currently has more mathematical proof then you.

Isaac Roberts
Isaac Roberts

It is still in the manga. Manga > Super cannon wise.

Austin Howard
Austin Howard

I think Stamina would be 215.

Gabriel Robinson
Gabriel Robinson

Isn't it only in the RoF tie in manga? I don't think it's in the Super manga proper.

Lucas Fisher
Lucas Fisher

No. It's in both.

Andrew Thomas
Andrew Thomas

Also, if you're going only by the movies/Super manga, then SSJ Blue might be weaker than SSJ God. It's only established to be stronger in the anime.

Noah Sanders
Noah Sanders

I just checked chapter 5 and couldn't find that line.

Andrew King
Andrew King

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/dragon-ball-super-manga-vol-1-tori-toyo-interview-web-version/

Toriyama:
Well… First off, right now I don’t have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.

Fuck off.

Justin Ross
Justin Ross

he has no plans for Goku surpassing Beerus.
This annoys me somehow. I thought I don't like the 'MC is the strongest' concept, but I suppose for Goku it's an exception.

Evan Nelson
Evan Nelson

Beerus is a 10, and Goku is a 15
Is this a typo? Because it doesn't make sense.

Wyatt Kelly
Wyatt Kelly

Didn't Beerus lie about that?

Gavin Barnes
Gavin Barnes

Typo. 15 is whis.

Jordan Moore
Jordan Moore

people still using bullshit numbers that AT pulled out of his ass as a joke

Hudson Bailey
Hudson Bailey

There will be a battle among the Gods of Destruction surpassing time and space. Can't wait for it.

Evan Morris
Evan Morris

The only arc where Goku was the strongest at the end was the Frieza arc. In the Saiyan, Cell, and Buu arcs there was someone stronger than him.

Michael Anderson
Michael Anderson

Why the fuck did they make Monaka weak?

Jesus, it would be MUCH more satisfying if he actually was the strongest in the universe, but no, we get this filler bullshit.

God I fucking hate super.

Camden Smith
Camden Smith

The strongest of his kind obviously.

Mason Adams
Mason Adams

To me, it looks like Beerus was pretty at ease when he defeated Goku in BoG. I don't think it's accurate to say Beerus at 80% = BoG Goku at 100%.

Jaxon Long
Jaxon Long

Many things were a letdown about that tournament. Besides Monaka being space Satan, Buu goes down to a gag, and Piccolo is outright told he's cannon fodder.

Luke Watson
Luke Watson

frost had to be stronger than frieza with out training right? I mean piccilo should have wiped the floor with frost since he was able to take on 17

Wyatt Jackson
Wyatt Jackson

Quit bitching, Piccolo had one of the better fights in this U7 vs U6 tournament using various cool abilities like his stretchy arms and the multi form, breaks Vados's barrier which tanked causal blasts from God of destruction Champa, even Frost himself says if Piccolo landed his Makankosappo he would have won.

Henry Green
Henry Green

Source?

Sebastian Nelson
Sebastian Nelson

Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x10 greater than 60?
no, because thats not how it works
Kaioken x 10 increase ki output by 10
that doesnt translate into overall power by 10 except in fairly low cases.
all indication is that it added 10 x Goku's base, not total

Gavin White
Gavin White

Yeah. The fact that Goku bothered turning SSJ against him shows that Frost is relatively high level, just not God level (Remember, Goku's base was greatly boosted after absorbing the power of SSJ God).

Parker Rivera
Parker Rivera

Well, in Super, we know that he wasn't using his full power against Goku because there's a scene afterwards where it's pointed out that he was lying about how much power he was using. I guess something similar could be happening in the original BoGs, and the whole "I ran out of energy" thing was always a lie, with Super just making it more obvious, considering how he didn't really seem tired at all.

Julian Ortiz
Julian Ortiz

Because Super is Goku and Vegeta show, and knowing Toriyama, he wouldn't let anyone asides Beerus and Whis (for the moment) be stronger than them in their Universe.

Hudson Long
Hudson Long

Remember that Goku's new base is Super Saiyan Red because he absorbed the God Ki.

Charles Walker
Charles Walker

Apologists pretending Akira's numbers were some sort of secret code never fail to amuse me. What a crock of stupid shit.

And even if it wasn't, it would mean Goku in BoG was way to weak to feasibly entertain Beerus, making the point of the movie moot and the resolution a lie.

Parker Roberts
Parker Roberts

Kaioken x 10 increase ki output by 10
that doesnt translate into overall power by 10
Yes it does. It literally fucking does.

Evan Morales
Evan Morales

And even if it didn't. Toriyama retconned his story so their powerlevel is literally entirely dependent on their Ki (no ki, they die to a shitty ring or get hurt by rocks), so more ki output = more powerlevel.

Hunter Hernandez
Hunter Hernandez

If Goku has God Ki now, and Super Saiyan Blue is Super Saiyan with god Ki, what the fuck is his normal super saiyan?

How much of a boost is each? I mean Super Saiyan used to be 50x, but right now it'd be difficult to say it's even a 2x boost.

And at 2x boost he's still a 12 to Beerus' 10. And this not even counting SSB and SSBKaiokenX10

Ian Hughes
Ian Hughes

You're making a lot of assumptions, just like those people who assumed speed, and strength multiplied with Power Levels on a 1 to 1 scale

Matthew Wood
Matthew Wood

Monaka is not space Satan. He's not even close to similar.

Parker Nelson
Parker Nelson

I give up trying to follow power creeps. To me, Goku will become stronger than Beerus once Toriyama will state it as fact.

Cameron Barnes
Cameron Barnes

You're trying to find a loophole by saying Goku's power and speed are unbalanced, but you and I both know he'd never make that mistake.

Hudson Butler
Hudson Butler

It's pretty pathetic that we have to rely in what the authors tell us because they're utterly incapable of showing us and honestly don't seem to be able to tell us without contradicting themselves, either.

Bentley Ramirez
Bentley Ramirez

It's our fault for taking his shit too seriously.

Nathan Green
Nathan Green

Expecting a bare minimum of consistency isn't really taking things too seriously.

Jackson Martin
Jackson Martin

You got me there.

Matthew Butler
Matthew Butler

I don't think you quite get it.
I said overall power
not powerlevel
the measurement the scouters took was based on how much ki was coming OUT of the person. That's why whenever they did attacks it jumped up.
That's also why Kaioken was dangerous. It allowed Goku's natural power to flow out faster. That's what enhanced his performance.
Super Saiyan altered the body so that it could maintain a much higher ki level. That's why the first jump was 50 (Toriyama said in an interview, the multiplier fell much lower over time. This makes it pretty clear that the new transformations allowed their base forms to advance quickly)
God Ki is keeping all of the power inside. That means higher power without rampant ki spewing out.
That's why it's "calm"
what Kaioken did was ramp up the ki he releases.
But the God Ki isn't RELEASED ki, it's internalized.
So he was only multiplying a small amount of his overall power.

Normal Super Saiyan is, well, normal super saiyan.
Super Saiyan Blue uses the God Ki to contain more of the ki.
Regular super saiyan pretty much ruins the effect of the god ki, since it forces the ki out.

Xavier Thomas
Xavier Thomas

That's why it's "calm"
That's another fucking stupid plot point, since it seems the writers forgot the Cell Games.

And this fucking bullshit about how SS1 has energy drain, when he literally stayed transformed for months with no ill effects.

Nathaniel Reyes
Nathaniel Reyes

No. What?

I'm talking specifically about how people think things like: Because Goku was this fast at a PL of 1000, then he must be 9 times as fast at 9000. When every event in DBZ pretty much showed that increase in speed and power with ki levels wasn't evenly scaled.

Especially when you have Goku working out wiht 400 tons at the end of the manga, and no one being close to the speed of light despite what people calculated their actual speeds to be.

Camden Sullivan
Camden Sullivan

And this fucking bullshit about how SS1 has energy drain, when he literally stayed transformed for months with no ill effects.

It was 7 days. And that's why they did it.

Kevin Nelson
Kevin Nelson

It was 7 days. And that's why they did it.
No, it was since Gohan turned super saiyan, which was 6 months into their year in the time room.

They ELIMINATED said supposed energy drain and the mood of SS. So it makes zero sense that that's the excuse for why he couldn't so Kaioken as SS, but can as SSB.

Evan Lopez
Evan Lopez

So when does Ariel show up?

Ryder Parker
Ryder Parker

No, it was since Gohan turned super saiyan, which was 6 months into their year in the time room.

You positive about that? I can't look up the manga scans online right now.

Jaxon Richardson
Jaxon Richardson

Toriyama retconned his story so their powerlevel is literally entirely dependent on their Ki (no ki, they die to a shitty ring or get hurt by rocks)

It's been that way since Namek. Vegeta literally explains this to Krillin

Jaxson Ramirez
Jaxson Ramirez

To be exact. He decided on it some time after Gohan went SS, on the day he discovered Vegeta and Trunk's SS+ transformation. It's still months, and even if it wasn't, seven days of perma SS should tell you all you need to know about it's supposed "energy drain".

Ryder Kelly
Ryder Kelly

It's been that way since Namek.
No, in namek there was still a balance, their bodies were powerful to begin with, ki or no ki. Sure, lowering his guard completely allowed Krilln to kill him, but Krillin was still pretty powerful in Namek.

Nathan Kelly
Nathan Kelly

Why do Vegeta and Goku bother doing pushups and shit if Ki is 99.9% of their power now?

Joshua Hill
Joshua Hill

Same reason they never do squats and oats.

Jordan Butler
Jordan Butler

I always figured they do, but offscreen. Those rectus and vastus didn't pump themselves.

James Thompson
James Thompson

Why the fuck do any of you faggots still care about Dragonball!? Even Toriyama doesn't give a shit

Nicholas Thomas
Nicholas Thomas

My main issue is that this show had the potential to be great. If they had just gotten a good writer, with Toriyama supervising, it could have been great.

So many interesting plot points executed with the grace of a mentally impaired quentin tarantino.

But user it's a kids show, it's supposed to be childish

Motherfucker, DB came out in the fucking 80's. Most of its fans are in their early 20's to late 30's. Fuck outta here with this lazy, money-grabbing coup.

Jason Brooks
Jason Brooks

Mathematically Goku is superior to both Whis and Beerus. This is simply because Toriyama is a shithead when it comes to not contradicting his own story.

Adrian Baker
Adrian Baker

retconned
If it was retconned, then it happened years ago.

Colton Carter
Colton Carter

Even Toriyama doesn't give a shit
Citation needed

Jonathan Morgan
Jonathan Morgan

Ariel
Arale didn't appear in the preview of the incoming episode of this week, but that doesn't mean she won't appear.

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