Daily Japanese Thread DJT #1544

Jordan Walker
Jordan Walker

Cornucopia of Resources / Guide
Read the guide before asking questions.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pKgBm8Aa58mjB1hYhbK-VOPZsRBTXBuPBzw8Xikm2ss/pub?embedded=true

Previous Thread:
/a/thread/141617900#p141617900

All urls found in this thread:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pKgBm8Aa58mjB1hYhbK-VOPZsRBTXBuPBzw8Xikm2ss/pub?embedded=true
http://happylilac.net/sy-k5test.html
http://mx-futhark.github.io/hook-any-text/
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/shutoken-news/20160518/5398961.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjX-llqq2bA
https://youtu.be/CqnG97TGDlU
https://www.amazon.co.jp/Read-Real-Japanese-Fiction-Contemporary/dp/1568365292?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0
https://vndb.org/v683
http://sukebei.nyaa.se/?page=view&tid=1972247
http://sukebei.nyaa.se/?page=view&tid=2015297
http://jisho.org/search/%E6%80%AA*
http://jisho.org/search/*怪*%20*け*
http://jisho.org/search/*怪*%20*かい*
http://jisho.org/search/*怪*%20*け*%20%23common
http://jisho.org/search/*怪*%20*かい*%20%23common
https://a.pomf.cat/blgpbp.odt
https://a.pomf.cat/apcjfa.docx
http://desustorage.org/a/thread/135067857/#135081856
http://desustorage.org/a/thread/140066029/#140081222
http://desustorage.org/_/search/text/%22dojg%20maintainer%22/
http://desustorage.org/_/search/text/%22dojg%20maintainer%22/)
http://desustorage.org/a/thread/137818953/#137819103
https://desustorage.org/a/search/text/kanji%20useless/end/2016-05-11/
Bentley Garcia
Bentley Garcia

Friendly Reminder

How to tell if something is a shitpost:
calls the community made guide/whatever method a piece of shit with no reasoning given why
insults someone giving helpful advice with no reasoning given why
attempts to create arguments over virtually nothing (eg opinions without facts)
"spam questions" that are easily answered via a 1 second glance at the guide
uses obtuse Japanese fragments interspersed with English to attempt bypass people trying to filter the shitposts
any mention of anime being shit, or "real Japanese"
spells the word as romaji

Austin Adams
Austin Adams

tfw not smarter than a 5th grader
http://happylilac.net/sy-k5test.html

Adrian Jones
Adrian Jones

Talking with nipponjins on a japanese chat app sorta like omegle only with no cam
Coversation starts with the usual asl crap
Can't type fast enough cuz baka gaijin
As soon as i say I'm a male the other guy switches conversations
Hornyjaps.png
Only way out of this loop is to start pretending I'm a dog spamming wan wan
Mfw it actually works and i got many meaningful conversations started that way

Michael Edwards
Michael Edwards

Stop posting this, they will avoid doing what you listed and shitpost anyway.

Thomas Taylor
Thomas Taylor

literally outlining how to shit post in DJT for newfags

Justin Rogers
Justin Rogers

thank you for showing me how to shitpost! がんばる!

Oliver Collins
Oliver Collins

finally it's thread starter epic meme posting time, the favorite moments of my life

Angel Foster
Angel Foster

どうもがいても外人は外人なのさ

がむしゃら苦しさ悔しさ

結局何を手に入れたお前は

Gavin Torres
Gavin Torres

I like this thread image. Made me chuckle.

Parker Phillips
Parker Phillips

Does anyone else think that the 2k6k vocabulary deck is shit?
Like it teaches you words you probably don't need for quite some time but won't give you the basics you need for easy conversations?

I mean, I had days where I learned almost only useful and important words and then there are days there you just ask yourself when the fuck this is supposed to be useful ever.

I would prefer to only learn basics and start reading, but what I've learned so doesn't even remotely allow me to do that.
Kinda feels like a waste of time to be honest.

Kayden Turner
Kayden Turner

Holy shit, there IS a way to text hook just about any emulated game:
http://mx-futhark.github.io/hook-any-text/

Julian Brown
Julian Brown

Well, at least their options will be pretty limited.
The way I see it is that it tells the mods what to look out for.

Ryan Flores
Ryan Flores

alright so just get the yotsuba vocab decks and do those

Justin Rivera
Justin Rivera

Someone should do one based on Japanese subtitles for tv shows, or something.

Jacob Parker
Jacob Parker

I'm already doing that on top of it.

Not a bad idea, also could need one for hentai vocabulary.

Brayden Wilson
Brayden Wilson

You only think the words are useless because you've never actually read anything. The words in the deck I've never seen irl can be counted on one hand.

Matthew Ramirez
Matthew Ramirez

中出し、フレンド。

Jace Roberts
Jace Roberts

I'm already doing that on top of it
so whats the problem

this. everything is useful just read more

Dominic Gutierrez
Dominic Gutierrez

stop grind start read

Carson Williams
Carson Williams

The "useless" words share kanji with the common words and knowing/practicing both helps you remember.

Sebastian Sullivan
Sebastian Sullivan

Okay I guess I'll shut up and keep doing my reps then.

Doesn't sound as sexy as I thought, it's as sexy as german porn dialog.

I see, didn't think about that before.

Samuel Thompson
Samuel Thompson

おそいぞい

Landon Roberts
Landon Roberts

That's pretty cool. I've wanted to play Xenosaga I&II on NDS, but it has so much scifi and science info spam that it can be painful.

Bentley Sullivan
Bentley Sullivan

Is it usually easier to read manga or play Japanese games?

I guess games should be easier if they are more focused on gameplay rather than story is that right?

Austin Hall
Austin Hall

the more it becomes fun
英語も練習すべき

Jack Russell
Jack Russell

Any site where I can enter a Japanese books name and read it online or at least check out the first few pages?

Ryan Baker
Ryan Baker

kek

Jaxson Clark
Jaxson Clark

日本語 is not fun, 日本語 is the wall separating you from fun

Wyatt Richardson
Wyatt Richardson

I find games easier because text hooking > manual lookups/image OCR, and voice acting also helps with words that you might not recognize instantly from reading it.

Easton Rivera
Easton Rivera

With games you might end up getting time limited text where it's only on the screen for a few seconds while manga won't be going anywhere. Also not sure if you can text hook anything that's not a VN

Jacob Turner
Jacob Turner

I heard that's also true for Korean food.

Evan Diaz
Evan Diaz

If you're at the level where you are using Core decks you have no clue what are and aren't common/useful Japanese words, so how could you possibly have this complaint?

Zachary Price
Zachary Price

What's wrong with it?

Austin Lopez
Austin Lopez

He's obviously ESL, ignore him. DJT ESLs are some of the worst posters on Sup Forums.

Joshua Rivera
Joshua Rivera

How bad am I holding myself back by not doing production? I'm doing my reps, grammar study, and reading every day but I haven't mustered the courage to go write something or talk to someone in Japanese.

Samuel Gray
Samuel Gray

Output is overrated. Just read a lot.

Gabriel James
Gabriel James

本日の特別な言葉は
自閉症(じへいしょう)

鏡を見たらすぐに意味が分かる
よく覚えて ね

Mason Wilson
Mason Wilson

Production is a waste of time.

Lincoln Ross
Lincoln Ross

see

Isaiah Miller
Isaiah Miller

鏡を見たら

*鏡を覗き込んだら

Lincoln Scott
Lincoln Scott

kanji handwriting test
Literally who cares, not even most Japanese can handwrite anymore once they become adults and stop practicing it.

Gavin Gutierrez
Gavin Gutierrez

The test is not about handwriting, it's about picking the right kanji to fill in the blank.

John Bailey
John Bailey

I'm ignoring/didn't bother to read in the first place all of your advice, and I'm just going to brute force my way through a 200 chapter manga with a dictionary.

Elijah Reyes
Elijah Reyes

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/shutoken-news/20160518/5398961.html
日本銀行の試算によりますと、オリンピック・パラリンピックの開催が決まった翌年の2014年から2020年までの累積の経済効果は25兆円から30兆円程度に上るとされています。

翌年の2014年
What?? Im pretty sure next year is not 2014

John Jones
John Jones

おk
do you at least know basic grammar?

Easton Brown
Easton Brown

sounds like a blast hope it all goes great for ya

youre right it is in fact not 2014 next year good job

Jacob Morgan
Jacob Morgan

The year after it was decided that Japan would host the Olympics.

Julian Parker
Julian Parker

These are great. Any more materials like this?

Brayden Campbell
Brayden Campbell

I have a question about one of Tae Kim-sama's example conversations. The lesson deals with と to list multiple nouns but my question is about this particular use of の. Here's the passage in question.

スミス: 親子丼の材料は何ですか?
田中: ご飯と玉ねぎとしょうゆです。そして、親子丼だから、もちろん鶏肉と卵です。
スミス: 気持ち悪いですね。
田中: そうですか?でも、おいしいですよ。
スミス: かわいそうじゃないですか?
田中: スミスさんは、面白いですね。本当の親と子供じゃないですから大丈夫ですよ。
スミス: でも・・・。

In the second to last line, can someone explain how is の being used? Is 親と子供じゃない being given the noun property 本当?

Dylan Gomez
Dylan Gomez

may i direct you to the の and と chapters of the holy book of tyler

Christian Martin
Christian Martin

の is how 本当 becomes an adjective.

Is 親と子供じゃない being given the noun property 本当?
Basically.

Sebastian Gutierrez
Sebastian Gutierrez

I hope you know grammar as dictionaries have a separate conjugation than what you'll be reading

John Hill
John Hill

Year of Jap in high school, can read and write traditional Chinese.
全然難しくね~

Matthew Hill
Matthew Hill

祝你好运花花公子

James Peterson
James Peterson

Specifically 親と子供. The sentence means "it's not real parents and children so it's ok."

Ethan Gonzalez
Ethan Gonzalez

but then are they fake parents and children? wheres the real ones

Aiden Williams
Aiden Williams

谢谢日本狗

Jaxson Miller
Jaxson Miller

I was bored so I made these. Feel free to use them. Or don't.

Jackson Kelly
Jackson Kelly

Tae kim probably took them, some guys on 2ch told me that koreans like to eat people

Jace Wood
Jace Wood

Having trouble parsing this paragraph:

「まだまだ子供ねえ。ほうきはおもちゃじゃありませんよ。いずれはこのかあさんのほうきも古くなるでしょうよ、そうしたらキキのすきなのにしなさい。そのときはあなたも一人前になっているでしょうから」

Context is Kiki wants to fly with her own broom and not the old broom her mom has made her use all her life. It seems Mom won't have it. I get the gist, but I'm not quite sure about the third sentence.

"You're still such a child.
A broom is not a toy.
When you're as old as this broom, then you can do as you like. (*I'm 99% sure I have this wrong)
Because that's when you'll have become an adult."

Parker Turner
Parker Turner

犬猫だけ食べてと思った

なんてこった

relax with the opacity dude also its cool you made a bunch of gay pics

i like to make a bunch of gay posts maybe we can be friends

Kayden Johnson
Kayden Johnson

Neat neat neat. If this works properly or ever gets to that point I'd like to try one of the later Pokemon games with it.

Grayson Rogers
Grayson Rogers

Make one like this with the teacher please

Ryder Ross
Ryder Ross

You have diarrhea.

Jeremiah Peterson
Jeremiah Peterson

Eventually even mom's broom will become old, then you can choose the one you like.

Brandon Moore
Brandon Moore

beautiful timing (笑う)

Henry Allen
Henry Allen

It's easy enough to make it yourself. All you do is slap the image you want on top of the original DJT image and set the transparency to somewhere between 35-50%.

Colton Turner
Colton Turner

all the main text is too opaque dude i cant read it

also instead of derailing this very fruitful and overall great thread maybe you should have just made a imgur album instead of spam your poor design portfolio in one go

Landon Lewis
Landon Lewis

On the ones posted, the original DJT image is too transparent imo. Would look better if it wasn't so.

Levi Collins
Levi Collins

how do i stop confusing 顔 and 頭

Grayson Rivera
Grayson Rivera

Literally impossible, there isn't a single stroke difference that you could use to differentiate them.

Jordan Parker
Jordan Parker

Yeah, I tried to fix that but I couldn't select the original text in such a way that the selection tool didn't also pick up bits of the background and make it look even worse.

Easton Baker
Easton Baker

Thanks, the last explanation made the most sense. I'm re-watching the video and reading the entry in dojg and I understand it better

Jace Thomas
Jace Thomas

getting so entrenched in reading a doujin that family members walk by and you forget to even bother with hiding it

Jaxon Sanchez
Jaxon Sanchez

Have to say I am 賛成 with . The inversed one actually looks kinda cool but all the others are rather poor. Unless you only have one or two more to go it would be best to link them in an imgur album and not fill up the thread with these.

Luis Ramirez
Luis Ramirez

Stop spamming anime OP pictures, I can't show this thread to my friends and tell them this is a serious place to learn Japanese ;_;

Jacob Nguyen
Jacob Nguyen

Alright, that's the last of my shitty pictures.

Juan Lewis
Juan Lewis

Oops, forgot about this one.

Jackson King
Jackson King

Gross.

Blake Butler
Blake Butler

Let's use this one.

Logan Jackson
Logan Jackson

Why did you post this?

Parker Robinson
Parker Robinson

I wish I could tell you, but I didn't post it. That's not even me.

Angel Watson
Angel Watson

I like this one.

Adam Barnes
Adam Barnes

How hard is VH to read?

Charles Wilson
Charles Wilson

Why would someone write あやしげな instead of あやしい?

Wyatt Walker
Wyatt Walker



Suffix
1. seeming; giving the appearance of; giving one the feeling of

Jonathan Fisher
Jonathan Fisher

Why don't you try reading it and find out?

Jose Allen
Jose Allen

I'm not at the point where I can read anything yet. I'm still making my way through grammar.

Logan Ortiz
Logan Ortiz

Try reading anyway. I merely skimmed half of the pages of Tae Kim before I started to read.

Noah Allen
Noah Allen

If memory serves, that's a trap, isn't it?

Luke Perry
Luke Perry

is that a problem?

Thomas Fisher
Thomas Fisher

How do you think I knew it was a trap?

John Richardson
John Richardson

ごきげんよう

わたくしはうんこやりたいのですわ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjX-llqq2bA

Noah Harris
Noah Harris

今日は暖かく最高気温も20℃以上と暖かいので
what is the function of the と before 暖かい

is it a quoting particle?

Jaxon Lewis
Jaxon Lewis

Makes sense user. thanks.

Jonathan Allen
Jonathan Allen

What does つい mean in 気持ちよくてつい?

Lincoln Russell
Lincoln Russell

More context would help, but つい can mean unintentionally. So he/she did something because it felt good, but maybe it wasn't such a good idea.

Caleb Turner
Caleb Turner

Just make an imgur gallery for them next time, or something.

Levi Hill
Levi Hill

Is there a difference in meaning between 右上 and 右の上?

They both mean upper-right, right?

Jacob Fisher
Jacob Fisher

How can I learn Japanese overnight?

Levi Wilson
Levi Wilson

嫌中憎韓

Nathan Williams
Nathan Williams

嫌韓

Jace Jones
Jace Jones

You can't, just pretend you have though, like everyone else on DJT

Asher Richardson
Asher Richardson

Go to Mercury, one day lasts 2 Earth months there. If you study 24/7, you might get to intermediate level in that time.

Dominic Perez
Dominic Perez

Nothing in the guide leads to an answer to my question though

Julian Green
Julian Green

眼球舐め

Leo Robinson
Leo Robinson

Please respond.

Zachary King
Zachary King

no i know dude i mean i dont know the answer to your questions but i know the answers to these questions i dont know the answers to are not in the guide

Luis Smith
Luis Smith

邯鄲の歩み

Christian Gomez
Christian Gomez

轍鮒

Robert Murphy
Robert Murphy

仏倒し

Parker Lee
Parker Lee

study one day (overnight)
for 24/7

Joshua Roberts
Joshua Roberts

1 Mercury day overnight, 24/7 Earth days

Jace Allen
Jace Allen

蛙の面に小便

Nathaniel Williams
Nathaniel Williams

How the hell am I supposed to play VNs when the Jap OCR programs are so fucking garbage?

Ian Gray
Ian Gray

Have you never heard of text hookers?

Wyatt Price
Wyatt Price

プリン頭

Dylan Howard
Dylan Howard

朝マラの立たぬ男に金貸すな

Justin Hughes
Justin Hughes

Cute.

Mason Hughes
Mason Hughes

略啓

Jonathan Ortiz
Jonathan Ortiz

畑水練

Christopher Ward
Christopher Ward

狆がくしゃみをしたよう

hope you are mining all of this #rare vocab

Julian Turner
Julian Turner

Fucking leeches, I must have gotten a record number of them today.

Justin Butler
Justin Butler

you don't need to learn kanji, they said

Jace Campbell
Jace Campbell

It's only a few kanji words that fuck me up. It's mostly kana words. Though I guess I should learn the kanji so I can make more connections with those kanji that I do fuck up.

Landon Thompson
Landon Thompson

Do I really need grammar?
I did RTK and core6k, and I can easily read VNs by pretty much ignoring the hiragana parts and only focusing on word roots which are in kanji. It's pretty obvious what the sentences are supposed to mean.

Ethan Diaz
Ethan Diaz

core6k
get to robot
autotune out of fucking nowhere

Jayden Russell
Jayden Russell

あの子は許させないかと聞っている
あの子は許されないと聞かせる
You will run into a lot of trouble if you can't tell the difference between things like this.

Anyway, here's your (you).

Brandon Hall
Brandon Hall

Do I really need grammar?

Angel Hughes
Angel Hughes

*許せない

Isaac Jones
Isaac Jones

The difference is slight, the point that it's unforgivable comes across (at the very least I know negative form). Missing some nuances is less important than the enjoyment from fast reading speed that you can only really achieve by glancing through the sentence looking at kanji.

Cooper Long
Cooper Long

what are those sentences saying?

Connor Sullivan
Connor Sullivan

Any polyglots here?

Hudson Bailey
Hudson Bailey

確かにそうですよね

me

Levi Murphy
Levi Murphy

What else do you speak?

Luke Peterson
Luke Peterson

I already know Spanish, so if I learn Japanese I'll know three languages.

Landon Wood
Landon Wood

Vaguely:
The kid is asking whether (someone) can give them permission
And
The kid tells (me) that they don't have permission

They're not about something being unforgivable at all.

Colton Johnson
Colton Johnson

Skimmed the doc and i didn't find anything regarding this topic.

If i learn japanese, Will Japanese music sound / be weird to me?

Dylan Lopez
Dylan Lopez

i sort of just wanted to just reply "me" and have that be the extent of the conversation

no theres definitely something unforgivable about your post

Daniel Jones
Daniel Jones

Me

Luke Nelson
Luke Nelson

It's quite fun when you start to understand lines from your old favorite songs.
Of course most of them are just as incoherent as western lyrics, but that never really bothered me. If you can deal with cheesy anime dialogue, you can deal with lyrics.

Chase Gonzalez
Chase Gonzalez

blind leading the blind

Brody Adams
Brody Adams

Why would it be weird?
If anything I've been able to enjoy it more after learning what I know.

Henry Campbell
Henry Campbell

If I've made an error, it would be more helpful if you pointed it out.

Carter Flores
Carter Flores

ive been making errors for months and no one points them out or even notices them so get used to it

Nathaniel Martin
Nathaniel Martin

Appreciated, Anons!

Oliver Peterson
Oliver Peterson

no errors, your sentences are kanpeki

Parker Rivera
Parker Rivera

賛成ing with これ

Adam Hernandez
Adam Hernandez

arigato! (means thanks)

Sebastian Moore
Sebastian Moore

How do you rate your Japanese?

Jaxson Jones
Jaxson Jones

0/10

Grayson Reyes
Grayson Reyes

How come they kept を and didn't merge it into お already like they did with ゐ and ゑ?

Christopher Williams
Christopher Williams

2/10

I can understand basic sentences with the help of Rikaisama for words I don't know, but anything with intermediate/advanced grammar will most likely fuck me up.

Jackson Morris
Jackson Morris

Could be for etymological reasons. Could be to avoid confusion with the お polite prefix.

Also, を is still pronounced as "wo" very commonly in music. I seem to remember hearing that certain parts of Japan still say it as "wo" too.

Carson Scott
Carson Scott

Would be even worse than は, considering a lot of words can be prefixed with a politeness お.

Elijah Nelson
Elijah Nelson

What does "user flair" mean in this context?

Jace King
Jace King

Did somebody say を?
https://youtu.be/CqnG97TGDlU

Xavier Rivera
Xavier Rivera

The short text some of them have behind their usernames.

Chase Clark
Chase Clark

6/9

Andrew Hall
Andrew Hall

This new OP is garbage.

Include something recognizable next time. Faggot.

Alexander Morgan
Alexander Morgan

Just type /a/djt in the address bar, this thread is going to be the only thing that comes up anyway.

Andrew Jones
Andrew Jones

studying kanji all day makes me feel like I'm a retard.

Isaac Campbell
Isaac Campbell

I feel the same whenever I get a card automatically suspended.

Nathan Long
Nathan Long

its not just a feeling its actually the reality

Zachary Barnes
Zachary Barnes

2/10
worse than a natives engrish, ill bet

Nicholas Morris
Nicholas Morris

/djt/i;highlight;

Carson Morgan
Carson Morgan

Missing some nuances is less important than the enjoyment from fast reading speed that you can only really achieve by glancing through the sentence looking at kanji.

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

Gavin Martinez
Gavin Martinez

implying it doesn't stand out like a sore thumb in the catalog

Brayden Nelson
Brayden Nelson

Particles like は, を, or へ were written more often since they were essential to grammar. Spelling in Japanese was at one point determined by however the writer thought that whatever they were writing sounded like. Since ゐ and ゑ weren't as frequent, they got phased out when spelling become standardized. The pronunciations of those particles may have changed a bit, but they still remain the same in order to be able to connect modern Japanese with older Japanese.

Hunter Kelly
Hunter Kelly

I have seen とにかく a million times at this point and I still don't really know what it means.

Matthew Gutierrez
Matthew Gutierrez

anyhow

Matthew Wilson
Matthew Wilson

Oh look, a new namefag memester is born. Thankfully history teaches that you people tend to get bored and give up quickly.

Jayden Long
Jayden Long

implying normals even know the difference between kana and kanji

Tyler Jones
Tyler Jones

I quickly read this sentence but I don't understand why did you say kana and kana twice? I googled "kana and kana" but only found lesbian JAV porn. Why do normals know of this?

Kayden Williams
Kayden Williams

look, a hero

Jaxson Edwards
Jaxson Edwards

Where can I find a DCT?

Levi Gutierrez
Levi Gutierrez

ぼくのなつやすみ is hard as fuck, the characters talk way too fucking fast.

Daniel Myers
Daniel Myers

The same place you bought your bitlaser. You have one, right?

Aaron Cox
Aaron Cox

219 食べ物 たべもの
221 飲み物 のみもの

795 買い物 かいもの
796 キャンプ キャンプ
797 荷物 にもつ
798 品物 しなもの
799 見物 けんぶつ
800 物 もの

i+1
+
1

Elijah Reyes
Elijah Reyes

この画像から分かる「矛盾」を答えよ。

James Cooper
James Cooper

おはようおにいちゃん

ひやしちゅうかつくりすぎちゃったの

べつにおにいちゃんのためにつくったんじゃないんだからね

Noah Barnes
Noah Barnes

両方のサムネイルに同じ外人がいるだろう。
てかそれが確実に矛盾だと言い切れない。何せビーガンじゃなくてもビーガンラーメンを楽しめるじゃない。

Elijah Mitchell
Elijah Mitchell

妹ちゃんのかわいいおまんこしか食べたくないんですけどね。

Hudson Reyes
Hudson Reyes

They DID merge most of them. Lots of を used to be literally in the middle of words just like any other kana. They only kept the を kana for the particle, where it makes it much easier to read because having distinct particles is a good thing.

Jayden Murphy
Jayden Murphy

that feel when you really want to finish the VN you're reading because you just downloaded a different VN that you're looking forward to reading

Dylan Sanchez
Dylan Sanchez

It's too bad people aren't able to read more than one thing at a time.

Ethan Adams
Ethan Adams

なんかあったら守ってあげるから…
すぐ言いなよ

I don't think I've ever seen 言いな before, is this something I just missed when I was learning grammar? It's a contraction of 言いなさい right? Why am I still coming across shit like this, I should have started reading sooner.

Carson Ortiz
Carson Ortiz

Never read this post to the end until now because it really seemed like shitposting. What's 'bad' in your opinion about 'real Japanese'? I think it's really good for reading. Of course some readings (for example the first, 神様) are different from most Manga or VN but, learning to read classic literature is also a step to fluency.

Robert Hill
Robert Hill

There's tons of stuff that isn't listed explicitly in guides because if you have a bit of experience with the language you can figure it out easily like you did here

The point is not to tell you to avoid certain types of Japanese. It is that all Japanese is real Japanese, but calling some Japanese "real Japanese" implies that other Japanese is not real.

Kevin Martinez
Kevin Martinez

f course some readings (for example the first, 神様) are different from most Manga or VN
Also what the fuck are you talking about here

Logan Russell
Logan Russell

You are thinking of "Read Real Japanese" which is a good book. The shitposter likes to say stuff like "lol, why are you reading VNs/manga/anime instead of real Japanese?"

Mason Fisher
Mason Fisher

It is that all Japanese is real Japanese, but calling some Japanese "real Japanese" implies that other Japanese is not real.
Also what the fuck are you talking about here

https://www.amazon.co.jp/Read-Real-Japanese-Fiction-Contemporary/dp/1568365292?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0

I'm talking about the books which are called 'read real Japanese'. I think last year in November (?) we talked a bit about them in one thread and some anons started to shitpost about them. I assumed his post is about this.
ah ok

Alexander Diaz
Alexander Diaz

How difficult are those books? I like the idea of a compilation of short stories since there's probably no way I can muster a novel yet.

Tyler Foster
Tyler Foster

no way I can muster a novel yet
A lot of non-core vocab and a lot of not often used Kanji. I asked some Japanese friends (University students) and even they didn't know some words or meanings. So it's probably above High school level I guess (?). It's good for mining doe since they explain grammar points. But a lot of the vocab is redundant. I think in the guide is one of the books, and when you google a bit you find the another book as well. They are worth buying I think because you get a CD and can listen to the stories as well.

Benjamin Davis
Benjamin Davis

Tae Kim discusses this it's an imperative form -> masu stem + な。

言う->言いな
する->しな
etc

Brandon James
Brandon James

Why do people call it the "masu stem"? There's no other stem, right?

Jason Diaz
Jason Diaz

Too much new vocab for me. I might eventually make an Anki deck, learn the vocab, then read through it. The grammar notes are really nice. I gave up after 2.5 stories, but someday I am going to finish it.

You can pirate the audio. I bought it but I still listen to the pirated audio anyway. With all the flipping back and forth for vocab lookups and the notes in the back, the book is much easier to use than a PDF.

Juan King
Juan King

Can 減らす be used to specify a decrease to a specific amount or is it just in general? like can it be used to say "the number decreased to 13", or is there another word for that?

Asher Jenkins
Asher Jenkins

他人の価値観なんて私は知らないの
逃げるなんて許さないわ

How does 「なんて」 work in this kind of context?

Jaxson Collins
Jaxson Collins

You can pirate the audio. I bought it but I still listen to the pirated audio anyway. With all the flipping back and forth for vocab lookups and the notes in the back, the book is much easier to use than a PDF.
Oh you right, I just remembered. I also found the Audio in the guide I think and the book is a bit annoying that's true.
It's like は basically. It's mean things like ~
People often say this

Josiah Jones
Josiah Jones

If I can read most things come across can I say i'm fluent?

Including stuff like blogs, news and stuff.

I might not know a trapezoid or some odd odd uncommon words.

Benjamin Hughes
Benjamin Hughes

靴の下の部分って何って言うの?

Can I take out a って?
靴の下の部分が何って言うの?
is this fine?

Christopher Martinez
Christopher Martinez

Can you speak fluently? No? Then you are not fluent

Jordan Long
Jordan Long

Hey Sup Forums, what reasons do you think for which a Japanese learner cannot comprehend a sentence? Is it the sentence structure/syntax? Or because he fails to address the subject or other components of the sentence (which are often dropped from the sentence). And sometimes all elements are clear but the reader just can't connect their meanings logically (which I'm not sure if it's because the reader is a plain retard or being unfamiliar with the language). Is there more? Do you have any suggestion to those problems, Sup Forums? Do you have any tips for faster, better reading comprehension? I want to approach this in a analytical way.

James Reyes
James Reyes

what... it's either the grammar/syntax or you don't know the vocabulary. there is literally nothing else.

Luis White
Luis White

You can't learn Japanese, give up.

Elijah Martin
Elijah Martin

post of someone too lazy to study looking for shortcuts, fucking kill yourself

Hudson Morales
Hudson Morales

靴の下の部分の名前を聞きたいなら上だよ

Owen Wilson
Owen Wilson

It's more or less a filler word here like なんか. It doesn't have a meaning that can be pinned down but it's used pretty much all the time so you'll pick it up quick if you watch cartoons.

逃げるのは許さない
逃げるなんて許さない
These two sentences mean the exact same thing. However, the second one adds a feeling of exasperation, and sounds a little less formal.

Julian Rodriguez
Julian Rodriguez

Reminder that if you do fewer than 100 new cards a day you cannot and will never learn Japanese.

Ryder Sanchez
Ryder Sanchez

いもうとは全く英語わかってないなー

Luke Long
Luke Long

they havent made a pilgrimage to tokyo yet

Ryder Lewis
Ryder Lewis

reminder youre a fuckin lamer shut up lol

Adrian Brown
Adrian Brown

Yup 100 new cards and 100 reviews of old cards each day is the best setup for learning

Parker Martinez
Parker Martinez

いいえ、僕は「って」を「が」に変えても。

この文はもう正しいか?それても変化のせいで違いになったか? と僕の質問つもりだった

Dominic Martin
Dominic Martin

that makes sense, thank you

Isaac Harris
Isaac Harris

just ordered a feast in japanese terms, struggling to gain weight, but this was too good a deal
3 large delivered for 1910円

Adrian Nguyen
Adrian Nguyen

You guys wanna shitpost on /int/ we're talking about 射精 and its applications

Brayden Brown
Brayden Brown

Because it is what remains after ます has been removed from its conjugation.

It is properly called the 連用形. I really wish *formal* Japanese grammar would be more commonly taught from an intermediate level, along with the right terminology so everyone is on the same page. Before I got a good grounding in Classical grammar, I would frequently encounter expressions, forms, and particle usages that just didn't seem to make any sense. That almost never happens anymore, excepting certain obscure idioms.

Jacob Morgan
Jacob Morgan

Just use に or まで to specify the value to which something decreases. Your problem here is your example sentence requires an intransitive verb, so instead of 減らす, you need 減る. Watch your transitivity, bro.

Jeremiah Sanchez
Jeremiah Sanchez

yeah i know just used a general example

Jose Murphy
Jose Murphy

My true retention is 70% today instead of the usual 80%. Anki is depressing sometimes.

Henry Williams
Henry Williams

Thanks for the guide. KanjiDamage seems really great.

But what he says, that the teaching method of Japanese in Japan is hard but understandable since you gotta know the most used words first s you're growing, but then the gaijin teachers copied that way to teach Jap to gaijins, well all this thing.

Can I believe him on that? That seems incredibly dumb; but his method seems simpler, except that you start by less useful kanji because they are components of more useful ones that come later. That seems logical, simpler forms like in drawing.

What's your thoughts on his thing?

Camden Thompson
Camden Thompson

It's a meme, don't fall for it. Just do the core2k/6k deck, you'll pick up kanji naturally there and be able to actually read something afterwards.

Adrian Bailey
Adrian Bailey

That's a meme too

Joshua Gonzalez
Joshua Gonzalez

please dont waste your time on that shit, and just do the core2k/6k/10k

Angel Brown
Angel Brown

What is a meme?

But shouldn't I proceed by steps? I should like, read the kanji pages then memorize them, before going into the flashcards right? Sorry if my question seem dumb but I'm not used to memorize things that way, even if that proved efficient when I learned vocab without kanji recently.

Henry Parker
Henry Parker

My stats say otherwise.

Kevin Sullivan
Kevin Sullivan

you're stats a shit

John Gonzalez
John Gonzalez

The thing is that lone kanji study only really teaches you one English meaning and no readings. When you start vocab you will notice this is nigh useless, since some combinations of them make a completely different word than you'd expect. Anki decks hammer multiple meanings into your brain while also teaching you the different readings.

The "steps" is just starting vocab+grammar and after acquiring a decent amount to start reading stuff on the side for exposure, which is pretty much always the best way to pick up a language.

Owen Baker
Owen Baker

Ok thanks for your answer!

Sebastian Adams
Sebastian Adams

Gah. KanjiDamage is absolute shit. A year or two ago, I wrote an multi-page article explaining not only everything he got wrong, but also why it was wrong, and the harm-inefficacy that woukd result from his method. I'm sad to see that idiot still around.

If I can find the doc I wrote in my backups, I'll post it, of course, but stay far, far away from KD. Use RTK by Heisig instead. It isn't perfect, but it's much better than KD, please believe me on this.

James Cruz
James Cruz

I haven't checked Heisig's RTK yet, I'll see what it is.

Jonathan Young
Jonathan Young

jesus christ don't waste time on either of this shit. if you do core2k/6k you will be able to read actual shit months earlier than if you waste time on rtk

Blake Cook
Blake Cook

You've actually just explained why learning multiple readings and meanings at the same time for a given kanji is a *terrible* idea. The mind simply doesn't handle that much info at the same time well.

Once you have a 1) keyword and a 2) grapheme, you can then take your sweet time in hanging as many additional meanings on it as you like. Think of it as laying a good, stable, but basic foundation atop which everything else can be safely built.

This is particularly true of Japanese orthography. If this were Chinese, each character would generally have *one* and only one reading, so memorising the grapheme and its single reading would make sense. But to take one kanji, for exsmple: 生, how many completely different readings does it have? Just off the top of my head: なま、き、セイ、ショウ、はやー、いきー、いけー、いかー、おう、うむ、and that doesn't even include the 表外読み.

Parker Nelson
Parker Nelson

RTK requires a greater *initial* investment of time, that is true, but in the long run, the better understanding of the characters meanings and the more stable foundation it provides will massively aid future vocabulary acquisition and retention.

It's the difference between doing a one-off calculation with a pencil and paper, and getting up, going to your computer and whipping up a spreadsheet. The latter takes more time at first, but the long-term time savings are cumulative.

Go check out the second volume of RTK. You should very quickly be able to see how a bit of structured complexity can provide an immense benefit over brute force.

Wyatt Cruz
Wyatt Cruz

You underestimate the effect of being able to recognize kanji on sight and having a meaning to attribute to them prior to knowing specific words. I can say from experience that it became significantly easier to remember word meanings and pronunciations after studying kanji like that for a while. Also, given something with furigana, there's a huge amount of vocab that you gain access to without needing to use a dictionary for the most part.

A good idea is to get a kanji deck that has up to a couple dozen or so examples of common words that use each kanji and what they mean. That way you can obtain some amount of understanding past just the English keyword, and have something to work off of when you jump into memorizing vocab.

Vocab decks do not really work the way you say they do in my experience. It could be that there are people utilizing them better than I was, but I found core2k particularly to be completely useless when it came to narrowing down kanji meanings and readings. That information only catches on through significant exposure to words that use overlapping kanji, which isn't going to happen for beginners who add 20 new cards a day. Core2k also throws in several fairly complex kanji early on along with words that you are guaranteed not to find in something like Yotsubato.

And it goes without saying that if you want to be able to write, you should definitely study kanji.

Luis Rodriguez
Luis Rodriguez

That's the thing, you aren't learning only the kanji. You focus on the vocab, and you just get the kanji by context. Your mind doesn't have to handle "much info", when it sees 屋 in three different vocabs relating to shops then it becomes pretty clear what it is. And I don't think core ever throws you more than 2~ different readings at a time, which is I find the sweet spot. I've perfectly memorized that 見 is 'mi', but also 'ken' when combined with 学 or 物.

Carson Butler
Carson Butler

Yeah, this. The key word here is "study" and not "drill".

It's very gratifying to encounter a kanji compound you've never seen before, and yet still know its meaning and pronunciation without needing to touch a dictionary.

Jaxson Gonzalez
Jaxson Gonzalez

Can I ask how long you've been studying and what you're reading at the moment?

Because from what I've seen here everyone who studies using kanji takes significantly longer to get to the stage of reading competently without relying on lookups than I did.

Tyler Peterson
Tyler Peterson

That certainly does happen eventually, but first learning keywords in one's native language hugely accelerates the ability to do so.

I tried the context/drilling method, and it was inefficient and painful. There are much better, faster, and more efficient ways.

Carter Jones
Carter Jones

i know that feel... might was trash today as well

Justin Lee
Justin Lee

If I learn Japanese will I also be able to kind of sort of read Chinese since most of the characters will be the same with similar meanings? Or is it completely different?

Cameron Edwards
Cameron Edwards

mine*
worst ive done in quite a while, construction on a nearby childcare center starts at fucken 5am

Adam Taylor
Adam Taylor

It 'accelerates' it because you prepared for it 3+ months. If you just studied normally in that time it'd be no problem at all.

Jose Reyes
Jose Reyes

Not that guy you are reply to but, I would think that it would be far more natural to say:
The more fun it becomes.

But either way works really.

Ryder Torres
Ryder Torres

RTK pimp responding here. Several years, but there were long periods when I didn't touch a book.

This is what I'm reading now. I love propaganda.

Ryan Garcia
Ryan Garcia

It took about a month and a half to finish the first volume, then about another to drill the 音読み from the second, after which I was able to recognise, understand and pronounce any chinese compound. And this is to say nothing of the immense benefit to retention.

At the point, I need to deliberately avoid using many characters, because my colleagues largely don't know them and I don't wish to make them look bad.

Leo Rodriguez
Leo Rodriguez

In Windows 10 is there an easier way to type in katakana besides to alt+caps and cycle through the various input modes to it (and then cycle out when I'm done)? I've heard people say you can just push caps lock to temporarily input in katakana but it's never worked for me.

Also, is there a way for it to default to hiragana input when I switch over to the Japanese IME rather than defaulting to the Latin alphabet and having to shift+caps once to switch over to hiragana? It's not exactly hard to do so once and the act has become somewhat ingrained in me now when I switch to Japanese input anyway, but the fact is that it's pretty pointless since if I wanted to type with that alphabet I wouldn't be using the Japanese IME in the first place, so there's really no reason for it to default to that.

Leo Butler
Leo Butler

Yes and no.

You will be learning Japanese simplified, which has a lot in common with trad Chinese, but there are still hundreds of chars which were simplified in different ways. A good example: 龍、竜、龙. Trad, simpJ and simpC, respectively.

Chinese grammar is easier than that of Jap, but very different. On the plus side, the basic sentence structure is largely the same as it is in English.

tl;dr, no, but it will give you a good foundation to learn if you wish to do so.

Gabriel Harris
Gabriel Harris

Windows 10

Why do you hate yourself?

Charles Flores
Charles Flores

You can change the keys dude.

Parker Parker
Parker Parker

Where do I do that?
I avoided it for a while but eventually decided to just use it so I don't get fucked over if they start locking a lot of games to DX12 or something. Dolphin apparently added some DX12 performance boosts already which was a big reason for me to upgrade since I use that emulator a lot.

Jose Brown
Jose Brown

Your mind doesn't have to handle "much info", when it sees 屋 in three different vocabs relating to shops then it becomes pretty clear what it is.

You mean, I shouldn't associate kanji with a "word" meaning but with a "mental image" meaning? Like... when you learn your first language as a baby I guess, since you have no language of comparison?

Owen Bell
Owen Bell

Oh ドンマイ I found the options for it.

Henry Jackson
Henry Jackson

Here are the stats from my kanji deck. This plus reading Tae Kim at the beginning probably amounts to six months of what you could call "studying." Granted I'm lazy and mostly watched cartoons with subtitles, didn't really open anything to read until maybe a week ago.

This deck was originally a recall/recognition deck that I had set to add 30 new cards; after seeing around a couple thousand kanji I deleted the recall cards and set new cards to 0. On average I probably did 70-80 minutes of Anki a day during the period I used this deck and really nothing else.

Since that period ended a few days ago like I said, the most I've gotten through right now is a volume of Yotsuba and a couple chapters out of some slightly harder manga. I don't know if I set a good example because I pretty much put off acquiring any real vocab for half a year on purpose.

Eli Hill
Eli Hill

Mental images are much harder to reliably distiguish. Keywords hold a huge advantage over them for that reason. Consider: 者 and 人both mean "person", while 場 and 所 both mean "place". If you assign separate synonyms like "person" and "invididual", or "place" and "location", you'll never get them confused.

How can you do that with mental pictures? How can you do that with abstract concepts? You can't.

Thomas Young
Thomas Young

I get it. Thanks.

Asher Allen
Asher Allen

What happened to that one user that asked about everyone's sleep and anki schedule recently? Was it actually Zuckerberg stealing our data again?

Chase Baker
Chase Baker

Cheers.

Imma go eat a bento in the park with my wife under the azaleas, but I'll be back in a bit to chat if this thread or its successor is around.

Christopher Foster
Christopher Foster

That was like 4 hours ago user you've got to give him some time

Zachary Long
Zachary Long

How is 日 read here?

忙しい日

Jonathan Walker
Jonathan Walker

Liam Lee
Liam Lee

ども

Jacob Martinez
Jacob Martinez

And here?

新しい日の誕生

Zachary Mitchell
Zachary Mitchell

なるべく諦めない!
なせば大抵なんとかなる!

Time spent shitposting is time spent not studying. If you're about to engage in a silly argument or off-topic discussion, close the thread instead. Use your time productively!

Persistence is the key to success. You CAN learn Japanese!

James Clark
James Clark

Shut up loser.

Wyatt Hall
Wyatt Hall

Normally, bottom-up processing is used for identifying novel objects; but, once we recall prior knowledge, top-down processing is used. This explains why people are good at identifying familiar objects rather than unfamiliar.

Jordan Roberts
Jordan Roberts

the key to success is being effective not persistent

Angel Hill
Angel Hill

that is also ひ

though it seems to be a song title so it could be fucking 新(あらた)しい日(にち)の誕生(ばーす) for all I know

Josiah Sanders
Josiah Sanders

日本語は難しい。。。

Daniel White
Daniel White

How can adults use 僕 if 僕だ is a way of identifying little kids?

Levi Gray
Levi Gray

しかし。。。

Leo Perry
Leo Perry

僕は猫であるうううう
わんわんわん

Nolan Bennett
Nolan Bennett

its pretty normal to use it whenever you're talking to a superior

also rich people use it

Jayden King
Jayden King

A year or two ago, I wrote an multi-page article explaining not only everything he got wrong, but also why it was wrong, and the harm-inefficacy that woukd result from his method.
A lot of us are aware of your autism.

Connor Powell
Connor Powell

lol this level of thinking is so low i couldn't even understand what the fuck you were trying to convey for a minute.

you have intelligence lower than a nigger child

Ryder Cruz
Ryder Cruz

The sad part is that instead of actually making any actual arguments about the method, he resorted to just bitching about mistakes in the introduction.

Defamation of character doesn't mean anything. Hitler was retarded for invading Russia, but that doesn't mean his policy of murdering jews was wrong.

Jackson Turner
Jackson Turner

good pic. But is はず supposed to have that connotation with it?

Tyler Fisher
Tyler Fisher

Defamation of character doesn't mean anything. Hitler was retarded for invading Russia, but that doesn't mean his policy of murdering jews was wrong.
murdering the jews is LITERALLY the only thing he did wrong

Samuel Adams
Samuel Adams

How can you do that with mental pictures? How can you do that with abstract concepts?

because if your iq is above 20 you will realize their specific uses after seeing it in different words

Nicholas Gomez
Nicholas Gomez

日本語を習うのは難しいねぇ~

Owen Torres
Owen Torres

そんなはずがある

Grayson Flores
Grayson Flores

。。。
何のつもり?・・・を使えよ、獣。

Juan Morales
Juan Morales

but that doesn't mean his policy of murdering jews was wrong.

theres barely any left right, they're basically indians at this point
and i mean feathers not dots

Austin Green
Austin Green

そうですね。。。

Jonathan Perry
Jonathan Perry

人殺し!

Nolan Sanders
Nolan Sanders

I didn't make it up. It was just my favorite saying 8 months ago when I used to study Japanese back then so I'm posting it now for you guys.

Jonathan Watson
Jonathan Watson

はい、これ:…

Connor Carter
Connor Carter

rock on dude

Ian Hall
Ian Hall

ちげえよ
「・・・」だよ、この糞外人

Carson Turner
Carson Turner

gas yourself いつでも

Austin Gonzalez
Austin Gonzalez

same goes for date rape

Juan Brooks
Juan Brooks

Why would you want to rape a fruit not only are they expensive but sticky as fuck.

Thomas Jenkins
Thomas Jenkins

Where are you from if you think fruit are expensive?

Isaiah Hernandez
Isaiah Hernandez

I found, explained and corrected a few *dozen*, major mistakes in the intro *alone*. Are you seriously going to take seriously a biology prof who spends the first class talking about humours and demons as if they actually existed, even if all his formulas still work out?

Oh, and there were numerous outright wrong things in his main work, too. Not small things, either. I just figured that taking apart the intro alone would make the point. I was wrong about that, apparently.

Eli Roberts
Eli Roberts

「・」は言葉を離す用記号だけどなー
これもあるし:‥

Ryan Flores
Ryan Flores

What is it supposed to convey with よう and つもり?

Mason Gomez
Mason Gomez

What are the best visual novel to read for a beginner?

Aiden Bailey
Aiden Bailey

Yes.

Michael Lewis
Michael Lewis

The one you want to read. If you are constantly blown the fuck out then you need to study more.

Isaiah White
Isaiah White

ever17

Ian Ramirez
Ian Ramirez

Albatross

Jordan Collins
Jordan Collins

「よう」の奴が具体的なものを見ている
「つもり」の奴がつもりを考えている

Noah Perez
Noah Perez

Hanahira.

Aaron Morgan
Aaron Morgan

What about this one? This one looks fun. https://vndb.org/v683

William Richardson
William Richardson

っていう「さんてんりーだー」とか「さんてんりーだ」っていう
とくしゅもじもあるよ。おにいちゃん

Parker Clark
Parker Clark

I mean it's on this list, it must be good.

Isaiah Young
Isaiah Young

それは これと一緒じゃないの

Cameron Powell
Cameron Powell

That's a pretty good list, but I thought subahibi wasn't for beginners though.

Juan Bailey
Juan Bailey

Every time.

Juan Thomas
Juan Thomas

every time
it's a pretty bad list, both no quality control and no difficulty control

Charles Ramirez
Charles Ramirez

In Windows 10

Joseph Lee
Joseph Lee

just press f7
next time read the documentation

Elijah Richardson
Elijah Richardson

But having to go reach my hand up to f7 in the middle of typing is hella inconvenient.. Isn't there something closer?

Eli Sanchez
Eli Sanchez

making it learn the words you want to type

Justin Morris
Justin Morris

type the word in hiragana and press space?

Owen Rivera
Owen Rivera

A couple weeks ago some anons made new lists that are actually accurate, anyone saved any of them?

Brandon Collins
Brandon Collins

Is there a consensus for RTK on

- Kanji on the front or back for recognition purposes (no interest in writing)?
- Learn at least one reading for the kanji, or none at all?

Jaxson Green
Jaxson Green

do RTK as fast as possible, which means production format and no readings.

Dominic Gray
Dominic Gray

There isn't a consensus on anything, ever.

That said anything but
- Kanji on the back
- No readings, only keywords isn't RTK at all.

RTK was meant to be done quickly in the way heisig intended so you can get on with actually learning japanese. If you start piling all kinds of additional information on it, or even worde, try to form some kind of useless cnnection from Kanji-->Heisig-Keyword then you might as well not bother with that method.

The method works for what it's trying to do (teaching you how to remember and write the kanji), but people trying to use it for something else (learning japanese) and failing because it wasn't meant to do that, is why so many people are angry about RTK.

Mason Taylor
Mason Taylor

There's no consensus about anything here, but my take was, is, and will always be that even if you have no interest in writing, practicing it anyway is extremely useful as it exploits muscle memory to aid retention.

Regarding readings, separating the readings from the meaning has the advantage of only requiring the acquisition of one piece of information at a time. In other words, you already know the word "person" on a nearly instinctual level as a native speaker of English, so associating that word with 人 requires only one additional datum: the grapheme 人 itself.

Once those two things are firmly cemented in your memory, associating additional information -- the readings -- is far easier.

The short answer is no, don't bother drilling readings until you can reliably derive 人 from "person", and "person" from 人. Use the anchors that already exist in your native tongue.

Easton Watson
Easton Watson

The people who find themselves annoyed with RTK are almost always those who made it 50~80% through the first volume, then quit in disgust because the keyword:grapheme pairs don't immediately help one read Japanese at all. It could very easily seem like a complete waste.

...Until you get a look at the second volume (the very existence of which few people are even aware), when everything becomes clear and all the on'yo-mi all start rapidly falling into place. From that point, it's all downhill.

Until then, however, it certainly does seem a lot like Daniel-san washing Mr. Miyagi's car like a little bitch, and just as useless.

Adam Flores
Adam Flores

I don't really get the "production" format, but if you guys are saying that's better than kanji on the front...

Which of these two is the better one?

What's the second volume about and how long is it? I heard most people say to just complete the first to get a better grasp on vocab.

Jordan Hill
Jordan Hill

I'd rather not do RTK at all, but you're supposed to do it as fast as all, effectiveness be damned. Production cards are less effective for *learning* than recognition cards because they don't make your brain do active recall, but they're much easier than recognition cards, thus you can use many more of them and do them for less time.

Julian Gray
Julian Gray

My physical copy, which appears to be a first edition, fifth printing from 1990 is just under 400 pages.

Here's a pic.

Note what he's doing here: all the jouyou characters that contain 肖 have ショウ as their on'yo-mi, *except* for 削, which is サク. This is just one trick he uses to significantly shorten the length of time necessary to learn the otherwise pretty fucking intractable Chinese readings.

Ethan Kelly
Ethan Kelly

What's the second volume about and how long is it? I heard most people say to just complete the first to get a better grasp on vocab.

I should also note again that the first volume does not teach any readings or Japanese vocabulary at all. None. This is a deliberate choice and done for the very good reasons explained in my other posts.

The pic of volume 2 I posted should clarify exactly how it comes together later.

Grayson Harris
Grayson Harris

tfw not retarded so I can learn vocab easily without having to waste time on kanji study

Nolan Wilson
Nolan Wilson

learn that 怪 is カイ
怪訝
け・げん
And this is why trying to learn readings on their own is retarded.

Juan Garcia
Juan Garcia

that face does look kind of retarded though

Ryan Harris
Ryan Harris

It's pronounced as カイ in almost every single compound in which it occurs, which is dozens, except for this one, and 怪我 and perhaps one or two more.

So, with my method, when encountering 怪 in an unknown compound, I'll try to read it as カイ and be right 99% of the time.

And you think that useless? Have you never heard the saying: "Work smarter, not harder."?

Christopher Carter
Christopher Carter

And I'm not crippled, but I won't dig a hole using my bare hands; I'll go rent a backhoe.

If scooping dirt using your bare hands out of the figurative pit makes you feel more masculine, you go on with your bad self, but I'll be getting the job done a thousand times faster with the backhoe.

Doing things through brute force when faster, more elegant, and effective methods are available does make you pretty retarded, actually.

Josiah Morales
Josiah Morales

Just because you're retarded and need special help doesn't mean other people are 'forcing' it. Everythings going smoothly here.

Nolan Bailey
Nolan Bailey

And I'm not crippled, but I won't dig a hole using my bare hands; I'll go rent a backhoe.
That would be like saying "I'm not retarded, so I don't have to bother learning anything before I take exams". No, you still have to learn things, just like you use a backhoe. Kanji study is a completely different situation. It's like going out and buying shielded USB cables for your external HDD because there's a radio broadcast station across the street and you're paranoid about the EMR corruption your animemes.

Xavier Roberts
Xavier Roberts

I'd fill that face with kanji.

Brayden Evans
Brayden Evans

I think a better analogy is that you need a back hoe because you'd be too slow with your bare hands whereas the others are born with hoes for hands

Leo Sanchez
Leo Sanchez

Yes, Heisig's book works every time except when it does not, that's a brilliant observation.

And when you find a rare reading (which happens a lot more often than you'd think), all that rote memorization that X KANJI = Y READING and repetition will be so ingrained into your brain that it will be hard to get used to it.

You can also get a similar experience just from learning vocab, you know. If you learn the word 社長, you now know the readings of しゃ and ちょう. But those readings are associated in your brain to that word, and if you come across another reading in another word, you will have a far easier time to adjust.

Adam Ortiz
Adam Ortiz

A backhoe is a construction vehicle, not a handtool. Though that only makes his "analogy" even more stupid.

Easton Bennett
Easton Bennett

I downloaded the 快楽天 comic from October 2009 from some sketchy as fuck probably virus infested as fuck website because it wasn't on sukubei, sad panda or nhentai and now I'm not even seeing this panel anywhere in it. Why are you taunting me so, user?

Nathan Adams
Nathan Adams

no u
ur a retrad

The fuck, did I wander onto /b/, or something? I've explained very clearly the benefits of a little structured complexity. If you have some kind of philosophical objection to using anything other than grossly inefficient brute force, fine, ignore me.

Keep digging that hole with your hands like a monkey, and I'll keep trying to help newcomers before they make the same mistake you did and become emotionally invested in a retarded, time-consuming study method and unable to simply admit that there may have been better ways all along.

Juan Hill
Juan Hill

Well now I feel like a retard

Landon Gray
Landon Gray

Heisig's book works every time except when it does not

Except that isn't what I wrote. I wrote that it works *if you don't abandon it halfway*.

Carson Morgan
Carson Morgan

It's funny that you're so deluded that you don't realize you've been doing that in each of your posts. Must feel bad being born with a pea sized brain, eh?

Jordan Smith
Jordan Smith

I've explained very clearly the benefits of a little structured complexity.
Are you going to recommend that I break down the process of learning japanese into a structure so complete and autismal that it permeates into the decisions I make at every single moment of learning the language? No, a "little structured complexity" is not always appropriate to everyone. There's always limits to how useful a technique is. That applies to RTK as well. Not everyone benefits from it compared to the time it takes up front. RTK is not a means to an end, it's one option that fills in certain checkmarks that some people need to check before their mind will have an easier time on other things. Some people are born with antimatter generators for hands, entirely removing the need to dig that hole through physical means.

Jayden Howard
Jayden Howard

It's pronounced as カイ in almost every single compound in which it occurs, which is dozens, except for this one, and 怪我 and perhaps one or two more.
That's literally what this means, user. The book only works until you meet something that's not the most common reading. You probably can't tell because you most likely barely have any vocab knowledge let alone reading experience, but that's FAR more often than your idea of 1%.

Jayden Moore
Jayden Moore

The "essays" edition is far better.

But the one on the CoR is an older edition which has some idiotic editing decisions (extensive use of romaji, for one). They released a second edition fixing these issues but as far as I know it hasn't been scanned yet and I really have no idea how to go about doing such a thing myself

Camden Peterson
Camden Peterson

The goal is to learn to read Japanese: brute force memorisation is the stupid way.

The goal is to dig a hole: digging with bare hands is the stupid way.

The goal is to learn to read Japanese: learning meanings in your native tongue, followed by readings in compounds is a smarter way.

The goal is to dig a hole: using a backhoe is a smarter way.

You don't know what "analogy" means. Perhaps you should study English to at least a high-school level before tackling Japanese.

Daniel Hughes
Daniel Hughes

Your analogy misses the part where you need to visit a month long training course to get your license for using a backhoe.

Jaxon Rogers
Jaxon Rogers

brute force memorization is stupid, so i'll use brute force memorization to associate arbitrary keywords to every kanji instead of learning them as meaningful complete words

Benjamin Stewart
Benjamin Stewart

he actually updated it

William Nguyen
William Nguyen

Everyone feels that way for their first 5000 words user

Andrew Martinez
Andrew Martinez

The goal is to learn to read Japanese: brute force memorisation is the stupid way.
Fun fact: RTK is literally brute force memorization.

The goal is to dig a hole: digging with bare hands is the stupid way.

Depends how big it is. Would you use a backhoe in order to open a hole in which to put a single plant's seed? No. You would use your hands. It's literally easier to do so. That's the case in this situation, but the size of the hole may be different for everyone.

The goal is to learn to read Japanese: learning meanings in your native tongue, followed by readings in compounds is a smarter way.

RTK doesn't teach meanings, at all. Do you have any idea how heisig keywords were chosen, or how kanji work? Are you one of those retarded beginners going around giving advice?

You don't know what "analogy" means. Perhaps you should study English to at least a high-school level before tackling Japanese.

I objectively know more english than you. And yes, you did in fact try to make an "analogy".

Lincoln Long
Lincoln Long

You probably can't tell because you most likely barely have any vocab knowledge let alone reading experience

Not really. I've lived and worked in Japan for almost eleven years now; I've worked as a university lecturer and now as a translator. I also earned 漢検準一級 quite comfortably about three years ago and will likely be challenging level 1 in October.

Does that grant me just a tiny bit of credibility with regard to my vocabulary and reading level?

Sebastian Walker
Sebastian Walker

http://sukebei.nyaa.se/?page=view&tid=1972247

Blake Russell
Blake Russell

step feghten

Jace Rogers
Jace Rogers

So uh... did you lose both legs in a traffic accident or something?

Nicholas Campbell
Nicholas Campbell

I'm not sure what point about brute force you think you've made here. *All* learning starts out as brute force; the trick is to use as little as possible. How long has the average regular poster here being studying? You can literally make your way through RTK1&2 in two to three months, after which it's just a matter of learning the longer Japanese readings in-situ.

Think of it as a prep course.

Juan Sanchez
Juan Sanchez

In that case, you wouldn't say bullshit like 99% of the time the single most common reading is used.

Matthew Reyes
Matthew Reyes

I have no idea what you're even talking about.

Joshua Cook
Joshua Cook

You can also do core2k in 2-3 months and then start reading stuff on the side. Way better.

Sebastian Brooks
Sebastian Brooks

A backhoe operator should have a high school diploma or its equivalent, as well as have the physically ability to skillfully handle heavy machinery, notes the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Equally important is work experience in an industrial environment involving moving earth or mining. In most situations, a backhoe operator starts working on job sites as a laborer or truck driver, eventually receiving on-the-job training from an experienced worker on how to operate heavy machinery, including a backhoe.
In addition to on-the-job training, you can enroll in schools that have construction training programs that teach how to operate heavy equipment. Since there are generally no licensing or certification requirements for a backhoe operator, these training programs are optional, according to the Northern California College of Construction. However, completing a program can augment your previous training and may make you a more desirable hire for a heavy equipment construction company. Additionally, completing a heavy equipment apprenticeship provided through a union will qualify you for the training standards required by the union on its jobs.

Ryder Green
Ryder Green

Considering that RTK1 has about 2100 entries and RTK2 takes at least half as much time again, you can do radical study and go through core2k and still have some extra time left for grammar for the same amount of time investment.
core2k uses 1000 or so kanji.

Samuel Lopez
Samuel Lopez

I'm not sure what point about brute force you think you've made here.
You were trying to use X being bad as an argument against arguments against something that is X. I was warning you that you were literally insulting your own method.

*All* learning starts out as brute force
Nope. Brute force is when you intentionally keep doing something over and over again until it works, or when you prepare a single attempt so hard that your preparation is definitely overkill. I can guarantee that everybody has done at least some learning without using brute force. Do you repeat what you did yesterday in your head so that you don't forget it? Did you do it at the time? No? Congrats, you learned what you did yesterday without brute forcing it.

How long has the average regular poster here being studying?
Probably between six months and three years.

You can literally make your way through RTK1&2 in two to three months
You can literally make your way through a 5k card vocab deck in three months with a couple days left over by doing 60 cards a day. And guess what? You just learned a hell of a lot more than doing RTK 1&2 (hint: don't do RTK 2)

after which it's just a matter of learning the longer Japanese readings in-situ.
You mean the literally most important readings?

Think of it as a prep course.
A prep course few people actually need.

Zachary Rodriguez
Zachary Rodriguez

Apparently nothing will grant me credibility, then, not even official certifications and years of work experience.

But just for fun, go look up every compound that includes 怪 pronounced as カイ and count the number of them. Then do the same for compounds using 怪 when pronounced as ケ. Then calculate the ratio.

Is it isn't >90:1, I'll go down to the konbini and eat blueberry-sauce natto.

Levi Roberts
Levi Roberts

Are you intentionally learning large numbers of pieces of information each baked into a similar format? MEMORIZATION. Are you using mnemonics to make remembering arbitrary facts easier? MEMORIZATION. Are you intentionally learning a complicated system of information or logic by breaking it down into small, individual parts and reminding yourself of those parts on a regular basis? M E M O R I Z A T I O N. RTK is BRUTE FORCE MEMORIZATION. You said it yourself: You should do the minimum amount of brute force memorization. I'm going to assume you meant in terms of time, and guess what? RTK does not justify its timesink in increased time efficiency in memorizing vocabulary for everybody. Use your brain, not your passion.

Elijah Ward
Elijah Ward

/djt/

Cameron Gray
Cameron Gray

Wrong link

http://sukebei.nyaa.se/?page=view&tid=2015297

Eli Clark
Eli Clark

One virus wasn't enough?

Thanks

Lincoln Reyes
Lincoln Reyes

http://jisho.org/search/%E6%80%AA*
87 entries found
怪我 and 怪訝 is 2
2 out of 87 is a 42.5 : 1 ratio
QED

(also, the ratio is actually higher than that, because that 87 entries also include kun readings like あやしい plus there are also duplicates like half a fucking dozen 怪獣 monster names)

Cooper Kelly
Cooper Kelly

after which it's just a matter of learning the longer Japanese readings in-situ.

You mean the literally most important readings?

That's the bloody thing: they aren't the most important readings, counter-intuitive as it may be.

Count the number of compounds in which 持 is pronounced as its kun'yo-mi, もt+, and the number of compounds in which it is pronounced as its on'yo-mi: ジ.

Seriously, go check. Chinese readings, for better or worse, are hugely more productive than Japanese ones. Crazy, but it's true.

The advantage of RTK is that it consciously uses the graphical information contained in >85% of characters to make the task of learning on'yo-mi much easier. This is not possible with Japanese readings, in which case just massive amounts of drilling and exposure work just fine. Grafting on some ungainly mnemonic there really *would* be a colossal waste of time.

First you learn 寺, then 時, then 持 and so on, and then deliberately use the 音符 in each character to remember that each is read as ジ.

It's a shortcut, a very effective one.

Joseph Bell
Joseph Bell

np

Owen Sullivan
Owen Sullivan

That's the bloody thing: they aren't the most important readings, counter-intuitive as it may be.
Considering that the most common verbs are overwhelmingly wa-words, yes, they are the most important.

Count the number of compounds in which 持 is pronounced as its kun'yo-mi
Count the number of occurrences in text in which 持 is pronounced as its kun'yo-mi.

The advantage of RTK is that it consciously uses the graphical information contained in >85% of characters to make the task of learning on'yo-mi much easier.
The advantage of RTK is that it makes you learn japanese slower which gives you a placebo that learning it is easier than it actually is. Learning on'yomi without RTK is not difficult at all if you do not have a damaged memory.

First you learn 寺, then 時, then 持 and so on
Normally, bottom-up processing is used for identifying novel objects; but, once we recall prior knowledge, top-down processing is used.

Top-down processing starts with the human making an assumption about what the object is.

When this assumption turns out to be incorrect, it results in sensory binding retraction which makes short term memory weaker and increases stress.

Grafting on some ungainly mnemonic there really *would* be a colossal waste of time.
Grafting on some ungainly mnemonic to on'yomi readings is *really* a colossal waste of time.

It's a shortcut, a very effective one.
A situationally effective one.

Ryan Jackson
Ryan Jackson

お金が残るうちに欲しい物を買っておこう。

Why is this sentence wrong?

David Thomas
David Thomas

In which I stupidly confuse the words terms "ratio" and "percentage". It is late here, in my defense.

That means that 怪 takes the reading カイ in more than 97% of common compounds. Does that not make an impression?

For the record, BTW, RTK *does* introduce that reading as well, in the back, where it is actually collected along with other readings that, while still part of the 常用 list, are nonetheless uncommon.

A pattern need not be perfect to be useful and exploitable.

Christopher Barnes
Christopher Barnes

http://jisho.org/search/*怪*%20*け*
16
http://jisho.org/search/*怪*%20*かい*
54
http://jisho.org/search/*怪*%20*け*%20%23common
2
http://jisho.org/search/*怪*%20*かい*%20%23common
*5*

QED

Landon Robinson
Landon Robinson

You missed 物の怪 with that search, by the way. You also have to check *怪 and *怪*

Josiah Evans
Josiah Evans

A pattern need not be perfect to be useful and exploitable.
But it does have to be common enough (i.e. save enough time in practice) to be efficient, which it is not so for everyone.

Lucas Harris
Lucas Harris

怪我 is also extremely common, though. In the end, you will still meet hundreds of words even in core2k where the reading that you learned is useless.

Bentley Edwards
Bentley Edwards

Not really. Learning would be easier Chinese but the languages differ a lot in how the characters are used to build words and quite a bit in regards to their individual meaning.

I have studied and read both extensively and there is nearly no overlap when it comes reading. I never reach into my Chinese vocab to understand Japanese vocab and vice versa.

Asher Martin
Asher Martin

Didn't know you could search for reading like that. 16:54 is a surprisingly high ratio.

Owen Peterson
Owen Peterson

There are false positives in both, but they are few when you count them.

Lincoln Cook
Lincoln Cook

I never reach into my Chinese vocab to understand Japanese vocab and vice versa.

Bull fucking shit. Post your anki stats. Chinese kanji only differ from japanese ones like 10% of the time.

Matthew Peterson
Matthew Peterson

いや、そういう意味じゃなくて。

Any special reason why this complete sentence ends in a て form? The only explanation I can come up with is that it's used to imply that there was another reason / more to be said

Brayden Baker
Brayden Baker

*shrug*

I'm sorry you don't think it would work for you. I tried the methods you suggest, found the wanting and tried Heisig. It really does work.

Let me put it this way: my wife (foreign, obviously) is a prof at a Japanese university. She also abandoned the RTK method and used drilling, and others suggested here. She can barely read, and can't write worth shit. I still have to help her with a shitload of reading and writing tasks.

I used one method, and I've got the second-highest writing certification in the land, soon to be the first. The failure rate at that level is about 85% *for natives*. My wife used the other, and I still have to help her regularly.

These are just my suggestions and my experiences, nothing more. No need for people to get so salty.

Caleb Hall
Caleb Hall

って

Angel Nguyen
Angel Nguyen

oh boy here we go

Jason Richardson
Jason Richardson

I'm sorry you don't think it would work for you.
think

I tried the methods you suggest, found the wanting and tried Heisig. It really does work.
Cool personal opinion bro.

Let me put it this way: my wife (foreign, obviously) is a prof at a Japanese university.
Cool anecdote bro.

She also abandoned the RTK method and used drilling, and others suggested here. She can barely read, and can't write worth shit. I still have to help her with a shitload of reading and writing tasks.
And she's been studying for how long? Does she study properly? Does she have difficulty with memorization in general? Unless you have a controlled statistical study, your example cases are worth zero cents.

I used one method, and I've got the second-highest writing certification in the land, soon to be the first.
That's because you're literally studying for it.

The failure rate at that level is about 85% *for natives*.
Natives take the test for different reasons than JSLs.

Michael Flores
Michael Flores

Yes / emphasis
learn what the adverbial stem is

Juan Edwards
Juan Edwards

I'm curious of how did you keep your RTK knowledge alive. I stopped with my anki reps after I finished the first book, it helped a lot for my vocab learning, but now I can't write for shit as I forgot most of it. I assume it helped that you actually lived in Japan and had to practice writing, but did you do anything else to practice what you learned in RTK?

Connor Scott
Connor Scott

Yeah, Imma have to call bullshit on that too.

The meanings do not vary that much, and then largely in words with basic grammar functions. If I can read Classical Chinese with just my kanji knowledge, then man, are you doing it wrong.

There are not many words that the Japanese have repurposed completely. 這 is one. "Crawl" in Jap, a near-demonstrative in Chinese.

Tyler Turner
Tyler Turner

I don't use Anki.

I'll clarify a bit:
When reading Chinese there is no interference from my Japanese vocab.
When reading Japanese there is no interference from my Chinese vocab.

Adam Kelly
Adam Kelly

Cases offered by me, with background and details: 2

Cases offered by you: 0

Why do I bother with people who are largely trying to learn a language merely so they can wank in a more meaningful manner?

Whatever, man. Imma go join my wife in bed.

Cheers.

Noah Sullivan
Noah Sullivan

emphasis
Alright, thanks user

Tyler Lopez
Tyler Lopez

Cases offered by me, with background and details: 2
You need a minimum of nine binary cases to have a statistically relevant case.

Why do I bother with people who are largely trying to learn a language merely so they can wank in a more meaningful manner?
I got about halfway through RTK then stopped new kanji because I wanted to devote more time to learning vocabulary. Note that I didn't stop reviewing cards, and I did do RTK "by the book" in terms of process.

Lo and behold, I did not have a significantly different time with words that do versus do not contain characters from the first half-ish of RTK. Because anki stores a complete answer history in its database, I was able to verify this retroactively. There was no significant difference with individual cards. The only noticable exception was 3-character on'yomi compounds, which are not spectacularly common in the most frequent japanese words, and even there, the benefit of RTK was neither strong nor statistically significant.

I just added fewer vocab words when on RTK because I didn't feel like I had the time, so it did not feel as difficult because the lower new card count resulted in higher general retention. Therefore, there cannot be some kind of groundbreaking absolute benefit to doing RTK, only lower learning stress.

Kayden Phillips
Kayden Phillips

お金の「残っている」うちに~
とか
お金の「余裕がある」うちに~
とか
お金の「算段がつく」うちに~
とか
お金の「あてがある」うちに~

とかがしぜんじゃないかなあとおもうよ。がんばっておにいちゃん

Chase Walker
Chase Walker

I'm going to call it a night, but the short answer is I continued on with Volume 2. That's what brings everything together and cements it.

If you don't continue on to Vol.2, it really is largely a waste of time. Go download it and take a look, especially the introductions to the first few chapters. His strategies and the advantages they provide should be immediately clear.

'night all.

Sebastian Thomas
Sebastian Thomas

I've never seen someone so delusional and I've seen sakura-autist.

Eli Bailey
Eli Bailey

I can't believe autistic fucks like you still argue over RTK because you cannot handle the fact that different people respond to stimuli in different ways. Other user got the benefits of his approach, explained them then fucked off. Maybe you could learn something from this.

Christian Hernandez
Christian Hernandez

Is RTK2 actually worth doing then?

Caleb Allen
Caleb Allen

Again, if it works for you, that's great. All I've done is explain why I think a better method is available (for many people; it varies depending on learning style, of course) and my experiences with it.

I really do believe that Anki often becomes an end in itself, to the detriment of the learner's general language acquisition.

That's all.

Anyway, I'm out for tonight.

Sebastian King
Sebastian King

I can't believe autistic fucks like you still argue over RTK because you cannot handle the fact that different people respond to stimuli in different ways.
I'm literally the side of the argument saying that everyone is different. He is literally enforcing his anecdote on other people. Read the actual conversation before you try to start shit.

Landon Clark
Landon Clark

I think that Vol2 is the only way you'll realise the benefits of Vol1, so yeah.

Zachary White
Zachary White

Again, if it works for you, that's great.
Goalposts.
All I've done is explain why I think a better method is available (for many people; it varies depending on learning style, of course) and my experiences with it.
No, you've tried justifying your enforcement of RTK on other people.

And I'm not crippled, but I won't dig a hole using my bare hands; I'll go rent a backhoe.
The goal is to learn to read Japanese: brute force memorisation is the stupid way.
It's a shortcut, a very effective one.

Anthony Miller
Anthony Miller

Really? The page about it on the koohii wiki seems to suggest not bothering with it.

How long does it take to get through compare to Vol1?

Xavier Ramirez
Xavier Ramirez

Go fuck your dakimakura, once you're finished making your content-free posts, that is.

Lincoln Davis
Lincoln Davis

I'd say the two volumes took me about three months together, with about a 98% recall rate. If you're really motivated, you can probably do it in two.

Kayden Evans
Kayden Evans

The guy you're talking to is one of the very few RTK users who've actually done RTK 2.

Blake Barnes
Blake Barnes

No, you've tried justifying your enforcement of RTK on other people.
enforcement

Yeah, I'm about to hop the next flight to your momma's basement and kick your ass if you don't accept Heisig as your lord and saviour.

You really don't understand English words, like the difference between "recommend" and "enforce", so yeah, you're right: I can't help you.

Thomas Young
Thomas Young

Do you even read your own posts?

If you have some kind of philosophical objection to using anything other than grossly inefficient brute force, fine, ignore me.
otherwise pretty fucking intractable Chinese readings.
So, with my method, when encountering 怪 in an unknown compound, I'll try to read it as カイ and be right 99% of the time.
And you think that useless? Have you never heard the saying: "Work smarter, not harder."?

Asher Roberts
Asher Roberts

If I can find the doc I wrote in my backups, I'll post it, of course
I have the doc saved in .ods format. I don't know if it's an outdated version, but here it is if you want it:
https://a.pomf.cat/blgpbp.odt

Ryder Sanders
Ryder Sanders

Do you even English, bro?

Aiden Anderson
Aiden Anderson

If you're really motivated, you can probably do it in two.
The big bottleneck for me, I'm finding, is coming up with stories. So far Heisig's are crap and the ones on koohii aren't great either, so getting through just 20 kanji takes me a long time.

Bentley King
Bentley King

Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English:
compel observance of or compliance with
Wiktionary:
To keep up, impose or bring into effect something, not necessarily by force.

Angel Lopez
Angel Lopez

You've not been "recommending" anything, you straight up called other methods useless and inefficient, which could be used to describe RTK.

Easton Howard
Easton Howard

That is something. The only major flaw is Heisig's method is his reliance upon "stories" and "mental images". That works at first, but as things become more complicated, they become unwieldy, as you've noticed.

What I did, is replaced complex stories with a short sentence that contains all the sub-characters' keywords, and that of the new character to be learned. Example:

待: There's a LINE (彳) of people WAITing to enter the TEMPLE.

That worked massively better for me. Try it, see if it helps.

John King
John King

You are welcome to your opinion.

Christian Evans
Christian Evans

You going apeshit isn't an opinion, bud.

Evan Ramirez
Evan Ramirez

Really, thanks for taking the trouble to find that, but I already located a backup. It is nice to know that doc is still floating around out there.

Why people would take advice about learning characters from a guy who literally mistakes 酒 for 洒 is his bloody introduction, I'll never know...

Eli Perry
Eli Perry

Are you basing this on some grammatical rule or on what feels natural?
I'm confuse because the book says that

お金があるうちに欲しい物を買っておこう。

is the correct one but I don't get exactly what the difference with

お金が残るうちに欲しい物を買っておこう。

is and why this one is wrong.

Connor Johnson
Connor Johnson

That's the sort of thing I've been coming up with. Maybe I'm just shit at this sort of thing but it takes me a really long time to come up with one that feels memorable.

Bentley Jackson
Bentley Jackson

That's how I found this thread to begin with.

It still sucks though.

Eli Ramirez
Eli Ramirez

apeshit

Yeah, man, I'm just chewing on the rug like Hitler in his bunker.

Parker Jones
Parker Jones

Opinions are capable of being factually wrong.
backpedalling so hard you have to strawman what people are saying

Jordan Gonzalez
Jordan Gonzalez

What was /djt/ like in high school?

Cameron Robinson
Cameron Robinson

Here's another tip: I used to do the same thing, rack my brain until I found the *perfect* mnemonic. I later realised that it didn't need to be perfect, just good enough, so don't waste more than 2~3 minutes coming up with it. It just needs to be short and simple and contain all the keywords, something you can speak aloud as you write the characters.

There's definitely a "diminishing returns" phenomenon in effect here.

Joseph Baker
Joseph Baker

Really, thanks for taking the trouble to find that, but I already located a backup.
Ah, never mind then. And you're welcome.

It is nice to know that doc is still floating around out there.
I have a tendency to save anything that seems useful in case it winds up being deleted for whatever reason. I think I have what may well be the original DJT guide (it's titled "Step by Step Guide for learning 日本語").

Aaron Watson
Aaron Watson

駅の蔦屋で日本のギモンってゆう本買った。みんなは何読む?

Angel Brooks
Angel Brooks

自閉症

Camden Cooper
Camden Cooper

I think I have what may well be the original DJT guide (it's titled "Step by Step Guide for learning 日本語").
Here it is if anyone wants it for whatever reason: https://a.pomf.cat/apcjfa.docx

Ethan Taylor
Ethan Taylor

Opinions are capable of being factually wrong

Very good, user, the first step is accepting that you may be wrong. We've made excellent progress this session. Next time we'll venture into your Oedipal complex and its influence on your excessive masturbatory habits.

backpedalling so hard you have to strawman what people are saying

We'll just add "Apeshit" to the distressingly long list of words you do not know.

Ian Morgan
Ian Morgan

You can believe in whatever you want, but that doesn't change what things you've already said.

Kayden Cooper
Kayden Cooper

How often in % would you say you can infer the meaning of a compound word based on the kanji that compose it? Like 午前 and 足首.

Andrew Roberts
Andrew Roberts

60% or less desu

Jayden Cook
Jayden Cook

100%, RTK made vocab learning obsolete.

Ryder Parker
Ryder Parker

Poster child narcissism: Enforce opinion, shift goaposts, feign compromise, ignore evidence, become violent.

Thomas Taylor
Thomas Taylor

Typical sore loser: ad hominem attacks, trying to associate a negative personality disorder with the poster.

Jayden Davis
Jayden Davis

I only do vocab and pretty often.

Bentley Barnes
Bentley Barnes

Aside from the smug anime face, you preceded me down that pyramid, one jackass step at a time. I just followed. I'm done arguing with a twenty-year-old in his uni's anime club.

So, we can either keep posting autism-related insults at each other, or agree to disagree. You'll notice that I only make posts insulting you when you are rude and dismissive to me.

Brayden Jenkins
Brayden Jenkins

Except you've been retarded from the start, but idiots are naturally oblivious to their own behavior.

Jack Green
Jack Green

Enforce opinion:
Shift goalposts:
Feign compromise:
Ignore evidence:
No response to or Become violent:

Point and laugh at the argumentative narcissist, everybody.

Julian Nelson
Julian Nelson

Almost always. The only real exceptions are idioms and idiom fragments. 会稽之恥 and 臥薪嘗胆 won't mean much without knowing some Chinese history. There is no way to determine the meanings without it.

Lucas Perez
Lucas Perez

you preceded me down that pyramid, one jackass step at a time
Wow, he doesn't even know what the pyramid is. Should we tell him?

Benjamin Gomez
Benjamin Gomez

Is this the part where you pretend that the half dozen people in the thread that keep telling you that you're wrong are the same person, and then you try to eliminate that single imaginary person's credibility by labeling him with a mental disorder?

Connor Clark
Connor Clark

You'll notice that I only make posts insulting you when you are rude and dismissive to me.
You'll notice that you're not arguing with a single other person. A common mistake that narcissists make: psychologically underestimating oppositions.

Cooper Hughes
Cooper Hughes

Just you and perhaps one or two other self-unaware *genuine* autistics. You know the Dunning-Kruger theory? It has analogues in social dysfunction.

You'll note also that even as I respond to your stupid, pissing-contest-like posts, I still respond to actual Japanese-related questions by other anons who aren't here for content-free shitposting.

Joshua Torres
Joshua Torres

It's faster to just hover over with rikai.

Jason Torres
Jason Torres

half dozen people in the thread that keep telling you that you're wrong
You mean literally just you? I never said RTK wasn't usable; I argued against you when you were saying that everything else was useless in comparison. Did you already forget what you've already said? Let me quote some gems:
Doing things through brute force when faster, more elegant, and effective methods are available does make you pretty retarded, actually.
I've explained very clearly the benefits of a little structured complexity. If you have some kind of philosophical objection to using anything other than grossly inefficient brute force, fine, ignore me.
These are just my suggestions and my experiences, nothing more. [Except they're totally more]

Tyler Brown
Tyler Brown

Alright, thanks for the advice. I'll try not to be such an assburger with today's kanji. It's a bad habit of mine.

What would you say is a sensible upper limit for the amount of kanji one can get through in a given day?

Joseph Foster
Joseph Foster

Oh yeah, and

aren't even me. That's someone else.

Finally,

Become violent:

Please describe the "violent" content in each of those posts. Hell, *any one* of those posts.

You really, truly, do not know the meanings of fundamental English words, do you? I'm starting to feel bad for you, man. Like I'm strangling a downie with his own bus-pass-on-a-string.

Dylan Nelson
Dylan Nelson

Damn it feels good not to be an insecure beginner having their first RTK debate.

Brody White
Brody White

So is anyone else having fun just posting random replies to confuse these two autists without even really caring about what their argument is about anymore?

Ryder Mitchell
Ryder Mitchell

I still respond to actual Japanese-related questions by other anons who aren't here for content-free shitposting.
Yes, even when you're wrong, to boost your ego; not to mention feigning higher credence than you actually have.

I, too, respond to "actual Japanese-related questions", but only ones that haven't gotten legitimate answers, and are worth my time.

aren't even me. That's someone else.
Wow, you literally didn't even read the post.

Please describe the "violent" content in each of those posts.
How about these violent statements you posted, each of which is entirely uncalled for in comparison to what it's responding to?
Next time we'll venture into your Oedipal complex and its influence on your excessive masturbatory habits.
We'll just add "Apeshit" to the distressingly long list of words you do not know.
Typical sore loser
Aside from the smug anime face, you preceded me down that pyramid, one jackass step at a time.

You really, truly, do not know the meanings of fundamental English words, do you?
I literally objectively know more english than you, judgint by your inability to perform simple propositional logic.

Nathaniel Edwards
Nathaniel Edwards

judgint

Ryan Barnes
Ryan Barnes

replying to yourself

John Barnes
John Barnes

What?

Brandon Roberts
Brandon Roberts

You're welcome. It's nice to actually converse with someone who isn't here to shitpost. Anyway...

I'd usually do about twenty a day, but I did have a few binges where I'd do 50 or even 100. Volume 1, anyway. Volume 2 is pretty different, so it's harder to say. Some parts go very quickly (so-called "pure" characters like anything containing 中 as an element), others really don't have much trick to them. The book nonetheless still does save you a lot of time in choosing useful, common compounds to drill in the on'yo-mi of new character.

Camden Jones
Camden Jones

It's nice to actually converse with someone who isn't here to shitpost.
Oh, it's him. We're fucked.

Ryan Brown
Ryan Brown

Please describe the "violent" content in each of those posts.
How about these violent statements you posted, each of which is entirely uncalled for in comparison to what it's responding to?
Next time we'll venture into your Oedipal complex and its influence on your excessive masturbatory habits.
We'll just add "Apeshit" to the distressingly long list of words you do not know.
Typical sore loser
Aside from the smug anime face, you preceded me down that pyramid, one jackass step at a time.

You don't know the difference between "violent" and "insulting". Those posts don't even contain violent *imagery* or metaphors, not even tangentially.

You really are an idiot. I have never even encountered someone this... *aggressively* dumb, even on /b/.

are worth my time

Yes, it must be terribly valuable to waste it on me. It's 23:55 here in Jap-land, I'm just relaxing with some shochu and cheese on crackers and killing time 'til I feel tired. Poking you in the eye is as good a way as any.

^^^^^^^^^

That *might* count as "violent" imagery, jester.

Michael Stewart
Michael Stewart

Shit, you're right, it literally is. Why didn't I notice earlier.
http://desustorage.org/a/thread/135067857/#135081856
http://desustorage.org/a/thread/140066029/#140081222

David Morales
David Morales

I don't know who you think I am, but I checked your links and their dates: Dec. 22, 2015, and Apr. 13, 2016.

This is the first time I've posted in a DJT in almost two years, so I can't possibly have posted in those threads.

Who do you think I am, exactly? I'm genuinely curious. Can you point out some posts in the threads you linked?

Mason Richardson
Mason Richardson

you should've noticed the moment he mentioned kanken 1 senpai
that said I regret working on his deck for him considering how cancerous he is for the thread

Jack Ross
Jack Ross

Okay, I'm really curious now. I'm not the guy in those threads. I don't even use decks anymore, and I certainly never had anyone work on one with me. Obviously, I probably can't prove that, but it's true anyway.

Jose Richardson
Jose Richardson

Someone who supposedly went to sleep 3 times by now, but is still here shitposting.

Nathan Hughes
Nathan Hughes

Unfortunately, someone who denies his own identity whenever he's called out.

Camden Ortiz
Camden Ortiz

Can't sleep, had a snack.

I'm totally fucking serious, though. Whoever you think I am, that ain't me. Who do you think I am in those threads?

I might be an asshole, but I'm not that asshole, whoever that might be.

Nicholas Cruz
Nicholas Cruz

http://desustorage.org/_/search/text/%22dojg%20maintainer%22/

Zachary Cruz
Zachary Cruz

I swear to shit, I am not that person!

I really don't know why I care, but is there any means by which I can prove this? I'd rather be known as a dick for things I *did* post, and not for someone else's crap.

Anthony Green
Anthony Green

Don't sweat it. If you have truly not been here in two years there's no way you could have known about sakura autist/"the shitposter". Incredibly dedicated, he has been dead-set on destroying DJT for the past four months or so, shitposting on here double-digit hours every single day. Except the last few days, for some reason. Thanks to him many are feeling pretty 疑心暗記 so you'll have to forgive anyone giving you strange responses.

Cooper Adams
Cooper Adams

post a picture of your desktop with only anki visible

Xavier Price
Xavier Price

The guy who says he's the DoJG maintainer? It took me a few moments to even realise what that stood for. Not me, man. I have nothing to do with it, or him.

Why do you think I'm the same person? Some word or phrase I used?

Camden Richardson
Camden Richardson

Why do you think I'm the same person? Some word or phrase I used?
Narcissistic behavior, similar opinions about learning japanese, and same brand of technical english grammar, down to shared phrases.

Carson Rodriguez
Carson Rodriguez

Fair enough. I'll have to hang around for a bit just to see what the guy's about. What does he do, exactly?

Xavier Perez
Xavier Perez

He's done everything conceivable. He's argued, duplicated the thread, started the thread with troll OPs, flooded the thread with copypasted posts (note: not copypasta) from old threads and other boards, flooded the thread with bonafide shitposting, trollbaited for hours on end, pretended to be other recognizable personalities to discredit them, and so on.

Camden Robinson
Camden Robinson

Not me, man. I have no idea. Like I said: I ain't been here for two years.

I literally don't even have Anki installed.

Here's my desktop, for what little it's worth.

Jaxson Scott
Jaxson Scott

Sakura autist has many faces and even more names. He's gone undercover after getting publicly banned a couple days ago, but since he's evaded his ban before he's probably stalking us this very moment.

In fact I'm 100% sure it's either you, this guy or me.

Elijah Edwards
Elijah Edwards

Vuze
Skype
Okay, I believe you, nobody as autistic him would ever keep such garbage installed.

Jose Cox
Jose Cox

absent a lot
argumentive about the curriculum, especially sose, or society and environment on aboriginal kinship, 'how does this earn me $ mrs edwards, you stupid bitch'
regretting telling people i owned a cd burner
trying to dodge the weird kid that bought a hunting knife in his bag one day
absent so much i got put in another school for delinquents with 3 to a teacher

if i had been brought up with the stability and routine of japanese or korean schooling i still would have become an arrogant and reclusive introvert

/subscribed

Nathaniel Smith
Nathaniel Smith

The perils of anonymity. Well, thanks for the warning; I'll be on guard for him.

Isaac Sanchez
Isaac Sanchez

Thanks?

Vuze, I just use out of habit. Skype was pre-installed, and I've just been too lazy to wipe this shitty computer.

Ryder Taylor
Ryder Taylor

Does the appellation "Sakura Autist" have any interesting provenance, or is it just because he trolls Japanese-related threads?

Christian Howard
Christian Howard

Unrelated to "dumb sakuraposter".

Jayden Gutierrez
Jayden Gutierrez

Legend has it it all started when he snapped because /djt/ didn't like the sakura OP image he used for a new thread.

Brody Moore
Brody Moore

Heh, that *is* some pretty classical autism. And the ready resort to the expression "act your age" (as referenced in http://desustorage.org/_/search/text/%22dojg%20maintainer%22/) for some inexplicable reason reminds me of Chris(tine)-chan.

Doubt it's him, though. He wouldn't have the patience to derail a thread like that.

Jose Clark
Jose Clark

Everything will be revealed on the promised day.

Mason Phillips
Mason Phillips

http://desustorage.org/a/thread/137818953/#137819103

Evan Peterson
Evan Peterson

I'm guessing he took a break from shitposting about anime Japanese after getting banned and during that break realized shitposting on /djt/ is not the pinnacle of recreation.

Luke Myers
Luke Myers

gives a decent rundown of his recent tactics, although is incomplete. Any rendition of the history I give will also be incomplete because I have not been documenting his actions, just recalling what he's done off the top of my head. To give a short history:

February (I think): Someone makes an OP image that differs from the norm, featuring Sakura from Cardcaptor Sakura. It is pretty much shot down after much shitposting occurs over it and it is a general agreement that we should just only use the original OP image. The shitposting begins around this time. Later on, it is hypothesized that the person doing all the shitposting is doing it because they are resentful of DJT's rejection of their Sakura-flavored OP, thus the moniker "Sakura autist". There is no proof whatsoever that the shitposter is actually the person who made the Sakura OP, but the name stuck, so that has been his name for a while.

As mentioned, he began copying and pasting easily-answerable questions from previous DJT threads as well as reddit and koohii, flooding the threads. For a few weeks about 150-200 posts in any given thread were fake questions that no longer longed for an answer.

March-now I suppose the other posts have covered decently. He stopped the question spam and instead turned to shitposting (often literally, posting stuff like "today I ate my own くそ lぉl" multiple dozens of time per thread), spamming "individual kanji study is a waste", and giving beginners incorrect advice. More recently he has been on a binge against various thread memes such as "dekinai" and against "anime". Any Japanese in the thread, regardless of the source, would get a reply of "Why are you reading anime Japanese and not real Japanese?", and such. It has been so prevalent that multiple recent threads have been comprised of over 50% him just shitposting. Pic related is just one example of him.

Fun fact: this is me, and I'm not Sakura.

Samuel Torres
Samuel Torres

That got a giggle from me.

Alright, well this Sakura Autist thing explains a lot. Some people thought they were responding to some asshole who had disrupted threads a thousand times before, and did so understandably saltily. I can't say I'm happy to share any opinions with him, mind you.

I still think that RTK and writing practice are important, but I won't go any further than that. There's enough argument about those topics anyway, so that's the last I'll say about it.

Okay, now I really am falling asleep. 'night all.

Carter Hughes
Carter Hughes

Good we concluded RTK is shit and inferior. Sleep tight!

Luke Cox
Luke Cox

Thanks for the rundown. Wow.

Nathaniel Miller
Nathaniel Miller

Are you trying to resurrect the dead?

Jace Brown
Jace Brown

try to settle things peacefully
cheeky user has to have the last word
RTKun just cant catch a break

Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright

No, you made that conclusion. Others came to different ones. Anyway, let's just reset the respect counter from here on out.

I'll sleep just fine if my fucking cat would just stop clawing the bed.

Xavier Howard
Xavier Howard

I don't really like Kanji Damage either but the order Japanese kids learn things in school is kind of dumb. They see a whole lot of kanji in the wild before being introduced to them in school, and that's probably relevant.

It's like how you didn't only use words that you'd had on spelling tests when you were in 2nd grade, and there were probably others you could recognize even if you weren't quite sure how to spell them.

Asher Davis
Asher Davis

give me your favorite 'but' /djt/
>しかし
>でも
>だが
>けど

Daniel Young
Daniel Young

SOREDEMO

Mason Torres
Mason Torres

god dammit

Anthony Hughes
Anthony Hughes

武士は食わねど高楊枝

ど. I like ど. Short and sweet.

Landon Thompson
Landon Thompson

risque!

Thomas Ortiz
Thomas Ortiz

No problem. For the first time in months these threads have actually been decent, though, in the last few days since Sakura got banned. He seems to be respecting his ban this time around although there's no telling how long that'll last. Recently there has been another low-quality poster dubbed "Jamal", but he is harmless compared to Sakura since he is not hell-bent on ruining the thread, so perhaps these peaceful days may continue for a little while longer.

Off-topic: It's probably just me being incredibly narcissistic, because it reminded me of myself a lot, but I like your posting style. I like the flow of your prose and the way you talk about, explain, and justify things, even if I currently disagree with your opinions on RTK. Also, I love the double newline after quoting someone. It just looks much cleaner to me for some reason. It's a shame only 5-10% of Sup Forums posters choose to format their posts this way.

Anyway, that didn't really have any point. Enjoy this photo of a cute witch and her friend.

Jonathan Campbell
Jonathan Campbell

Hey guys. I'm Oresama and I'm your new resident shitposter coming to fill the void of the banned ones.
I'm not completely unreasonable, so I'll let you guys choose what should I shitpost about.
RTK? Core? Romanji? The possibilities are endless.

Brody Hernandez
Brody Hernandez

Hey guys. I'm Oresama
oh god i spat my coffee already, keep going

Evan Howard
Evan Howard

This makes me depressed

Colton Wilson
Colton Wilson

What app?

Leo Thomas
Leo Thomas

tfw some shitposter(s) is/are indirectly harming my progress in learning a language

Xavier Barnes
Xavier Barnes

いえたかしらぁ

Hudson Gray
Hudson Gray

けど for 砕け
が for ですます
しかし for start of sentences

Anthony Perez
Anthony Perez

Is it safe to delete my kanji recognition deck now that I want to do production for writing? I think I know pretty much every kanji in this deck from reading, my vocab deck and the kanji deck itself. 98% of the cards are mature and the average interval is 2.5 months.

Daniel Howard
Daniel Howard

delete a deck
lol no

Joseph Wilson
Joseph Wilson

yeah why not

Ryan Anderson
Ryan Anderson

gentlemen, please
we are all quite unlikely to fail
its just a ride, enjoy it

Logan Young
Logan Young

why do you need to delete it then? The review load should be minimal, and the cards that do come up more often are exactly the cards you want to be reviewing because their ease value is low for a reason

Connor White
Connor White

Just because you have grown up it doesn't mean you should delete your childhood.

Logan Roberts
Logan Roberts

Wasnt there some timer posted here before that gives the optimal study/break ratio?

I need someway to prevent myself from alt tabbing. I can't take 3 and a half hours to study because I need to shitpost

Samuel Stewart
Samuel Stewart

You can always ask for a permaban.

Luke Price
Luke Price

Is it safe to assume this is shitposting?
I don't want to do 3 decks. But I guess I'll just wait for the reviews to drop down even more and then start the new deck.

Kayden Morgan
Kayden Morgan

Is it safe to assume this is shitposting?
No, you should never delete decks, even if you stop using them. There's no point.

Lincoln Wright
Lincoln Wright

Pic related is just one example of him.
Here's some more: https://desustorage.org/a/search/text/kanji%20useless/end/2016-05-11/

Jacob Garcia
Jacob Garcia

No, you should never delete decks, even if you stop using them.
How is stopping a deck and deleting it any different? I guess if I wanted to return to it later, but I'm pretty sure that won't happen.

Adrian Cook
Adrian Cook

That's dumb and you're dumb

Nolan Walker
Nolan Walker

This is him false flagging, by the way.

I've gone back to decks I thought I was stopping several times. The best thing about anki is that even if you stop a deck entirely and go back to it, you'll never have to spend much time on it once you stop adding cards, unless you forget literally everything in the deck and therefore should redo it anyways.

Nathan Cox
Nathan Cox

I'm dumb and you're dumb

Hunter Powell
Hunter Powell

/djt/の皆よ、わたしの友達になってくれ!

Parker Jones
Parker Jones

So do you recommend just starting the deck alongside the one I'm reviewing right now?

Jace Fisher
Jace Fisher

Yes.

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