Why doesn't Sup Forums like computer animation? its getting better and better

Jonathan Taylor
Jonathan Taylor

why doesn't Sup Forums like computer animation? its getting better and better.

All urls found in this thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ5py_n30to&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.themarysue.com/dai-saito-anime-is-dying/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz1wRYnlcdg&index=21&list=PLRfbSE7bP95txM-4oWh4xBi-iL-TY85RG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLMimcmxIdk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN_CP4SuoTU
Thomas Jenkins
Thomas Jenkins

Why can't Japan into cel shading?

Advent Children looked fine, France makes flash and CG cartoons and they look fine, but Knights of Sidonia just looked awful

Even MMDs look better

Angel Cox
Angel Cox

Because good 2D animation will always look better and more impressive. It also has a higher level of difficulty which makes me appreciate it even more.

Hunter Hernandez
Hunter Hernandez

Because its killed my true love, 2D animation.

Also most of it still looks like utter garbage.

Christian Myers
Christian Myers

Both Sidonia and Ajin are actually pretty good

Carson Evans
Carson Evans

I love its potential, if that means anything.

Christian Hill
Christian Hill

It still looks like shit in motion.

Best CG I've seen lately was Etotama, but they were chibis so it's kind of an easy route to please with.

Even if CG anime was on Etotama level I still wouldn't watch it over hand-drawn; something about the fluidity and the presence of 3D backgrounds looks off-putting; it will always look like a video game because 2D backgrounds are a very different atmosphere.

Wyatt Gomez
Wyatt Gomez

I think it's a nice way to animate a lot of non-mainstream manga series due to being a cheap way of producing a series

Camden Rivera
Camden Rivera

No, it is not getting better. Some caveats, though.
- It's fine for mecha, military vehicles, etc.
- Useful if it helps get a series greenlit that otherwise would not due to budget concerns.
- The story, acting, music, etc. can make up for it and help you forget at least partly.

A good example is Arpeggio of Blue Steel. The CG isn't great but I can forget about it most of the time. And it's better than not having one at all, which I suspect (but can't prove) was the case here.

Connor Cox
Connor Cox

ALL CG IS FUCKING TRASH

Alexander Reyes
Alexander Reyes

It also has a higher level of difficulty

Only when hand drawn, which is hardly ever is. Modern anime is mostly computerized as it is, but it looks better than 3D because amateur 3D has problems with lighting, perspective, and uncanny valley

Logan Rodriguez
Logan Rodriguez

it's not getting better

what

do i really have to compare cg from 10 years ago to now? if anything traditional animation has gotten lazier by trying to cut corners and save a nickel

Brandon Ramirez
Brandon Ramirez

Why don't you start by posting an example of your claim.

Sebastian Wood
Sebastian Wood

if anything traditional animation has gotten lazier by trying to cut corners and save a nickel

Usualy by using CG, which is glaringly obvious.

As far as full CG shows, they've yet to progress beyond Appleseed-tier.

Lucas Butler
Lucas Butler

Only when hand drawn, which is hardly ever is.
It's still hand-drawn. The only difference now is that more animators are starting to draw digitally.

Thomas Nelson
Thomas Nelson

Ikr... Blassreiter had some awful cg

Leo Turner
Leo Turner

Watching Ajin's CGI gave me a serious headache, it looked all choppy. But the stills when people were talking it looks alright, the black ghosts also looked alright in CGI and in the break thingies.

Christian White
Christian White

they've yet to progress beyond Appleseed-tier.
Most CG anime are trying to mimic the aesthetics of 2D animation rather than pushing for detail and photorealism.

Julian Phillips
Julian Phillips

How is Arpeggio of Blue Steel? Is it worth watching solely for military battles?

You leave her alone user. I'll give you that Ajin didn't have that great animation, but she still looks nice.

Cooper Walker
Cooper Walker

its getting better and better.
Not for character animation.

Jackson Morales
Jackson Morales

Shitty framerate leads to choppy as fuck animation. If you can't animate something at 60+FPS don't even fucking bother.

Jack Parker
Jack Parker

I don't know, Ajin looks better than Platonic Chain to me.

Cameron Lopez
Cameron Lopez

its getting better and better
Sure. And if it gets a bit better, I will like it. But until then, I don't like it.

Jack Sanchez
Jack Sanchez

Most anime is still hand drawn. Cleanup, coloring and most backgrounds are done digitally now.

And how can amateur 3D have problems with perspective? Virtual cameras are already given to them in 3D applications, there's no way to fuck up perspective unless they deliberately do it.

Joshua Jones
Joshua Jones

It's great, but a lot of people did get put off by the CG. Give it the usual three episodes.

Note that if you've caught up with the manga (recommended), the anime completely and utterly diverges from it very quickly.

Juan Jones
Juan Jones

Hardly an accomplishment.

Andrew Butler
Andrew Butler

I didn't say it was.

Ryder Kelly
Ryder Kelly

do i really have to compare cg from 10 years ago to now?
If you want. Improvement is nice, but it still isn't very good.

Landon Cox
Landon Cox

I will say Ajin looks better than Expelled from Paradise.

Joshua Carter
Joshua Carter

I just wanted a show with interesting battles that I can watch mindlessly, think it'll be perfect? I don't really mind if it's CG as long as it still looks fine.

Brandon Taylor
Brandon Taylor

im talking about shit like this

if theyre gonna half ass it theyre gonna half ass everything

Gabriel Perry
Gabriel Perry

I wouldn't mind if nips actually knew what the fuck they were doing.

Yeah it's getting better but the animators can't use the fucking tools right. Better stick to that traditional 15 years old wacom folded over 1000 times.

Gabriel Bennett
Gabriel Bennett

The tragedy of Sidonia is that it barely would have cost anything to fix their choppy as FUCK framerate, and that alone would have taken the show from 'just barely tolerable' to 'proof that CG is mankind's future'.

Ajin meanwhile, didn't really leverage its CG that well. Also a little bit choppy but I would kill for its framerate with Sidonia.

Jaxon Sullivan
Jaxon Sullivan

le its getting better meme
No. If you want to see how it actually is getting worse, just watch a few minutes of Ajin. Ten years ago we got bad CG. Ajin not only continues looking bad, but also induces nausea with even an even lower fps and terrible shading.

Luke Barnes
Luke Barnes

draw digitally
That's acceptable, I think. Particularly if it streamlines the process.

Plenty of action, you won't be disappointed in that regard. Start downloading those first three episodes.

Jack Cruz
Jack Cruz

This. People is thinking the goal of anime and manga are as same as western comic ones.

Photorealism is the ultimate goal of all western contents.

Landon Bennett
Landon Bennett

Haven't you guys seen MSG: The Origin? 3rd episode/movie came out today.

Arguably some of the best looking CGI in an anime to date

Aaron Wright
Aaron Wright

It would help if they could at least increase the framerate or something.

Most cgi I've seen in anime looks really jittery in motion. Sticks out like a sore thumb.

Aaron Adams
Aaron Adams

That's a consequence of a rushed production, there's too many shows being made these days and not enough animators.

Wyatt Long
Wyatt Long

sidonia: mecha was good, humans were not good
ajin: both ""worst"""

Luke Richardson
Luke Richardson

The thing with the frame-rates is either theyre trying to mimic 2d animation, or render farms are expensive as fuck to rent in nippon land or just dont exist at all.

Christopher Rogers
Christopher Rogers

Dude renderfarms are expensive lmao

Zachary Ward
Zachary Ward

The problem is that a number of anime CG studios believe that limiting the frame rate makes it look more like traditional animation as the latter does use less drawings per second than the full 24 FPS commonly found in western productions.

Isaiah Collins
Isaiah Collins

Guess I'll go check it out then, thanks man.

By the way that Webm is Yozakura Quartet, right? I just started the manga.

Jaxon Murphy
Jaxon Murphy

They still drew all the characters traditionally though, didn't they?
I can accept mecha being 3DCG, but 99% of character animation done with 3DCG looks plain shit.

Daniel Ortiz
Daniel Ortiz

I do agree that Sidonia's framerate is sloppy as fuck, Im guessing it was due to it being some experimental shit on Netflix's part. Ajin, however, is good enough for me, far from perfect though

James Harris
James Harris

This has been explained so many times you must be an idiot not to get it. It's a choice, not an expense thing. They render more frames and then cut it down because they find the CGI being high-framerate jarring compared to 2D. Shit on the choice all you want, but get it straight.

Samuel Johnson
Samuel Johnson

Yes. Brilliant animation in that one, add it to your backlog. Also not as good as the manga (as you might expect), but a treat in its own right.

Jose Hernandez
Jose Hernandez

Netflix had nothing to do with Sidionia's production, they just bought the streaming rights.

Landon Collins
Landon Collins

Because that lack of framerate makes it looks more like anime.

Blake Lee
Blake Lee

Cool, thanks man. You've been a great help.

Jose Smith
Jose Smith

This how good 3D animation should look like, not that piece if shit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ5py_n30to&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Joseph Davis
Joseph Davis

if there werent enough animators they wouldnt getting paid in peanuts

Justin Wilson
Justin Wilson

He's sort of right in this particular case, since Bones was doing three shows that season and clearly hadn't accounted well for how much manpower that would take. Generally, though, I agree - I don't think there's any big shortage of animators relative to what's being made, and I've never seen data that would suggest that.

Evan Fisher
Evan Fisher

Her manga version looks so fucking bad now.

Caleb Taylor
Caleb Taylor

mfw

Alexander Gray
Alexander Gray

The thing I don't get with this (and I have heard this before), is that any animation that achieves mainstream high art status inflates its FPS significantly compared to 'tradiational animation' anyway. Animes basically operate at the highest frame rate they can manage. Which is often not very high, but seriously there's hardly an industry standard that these CGshows should be gunning for.

Arpeggio was fine on this for instance. Meanwhile RWBY is choppy as fuck, which unlike the others may actually have something to do with its method of distribution and limited hardware for rendering but fuck I dunno.

TL;DR how the fuck did they make Sidonia TWICE and both times not realise it looked like a streaming quicktime video from the early 2000s

Jordan Rogers
Jordan Rogers

Sidonia's framerate makes it into unwatchable horseshit

Christopher Scott
Christopher Scott

Because it looks and feels like shit and it isn't getting better.

Elijah Anderson
Elijah Anderson

For the record.

Joseph Smith
Joseph Smith

Just finished watching it. For containing far more action scenes and consequently a lot more CGI than the first two it looked leagues better.

What few combat scenes the first episode showed looked like absolute shit, surprising to see such a stark contrast.

Sebastian Lopez
Sebastian Lopez

Decide to give this a shot since everyone keeps saying it has amazing animation
It's mostly stills and when there's sakuga the 4 layer shading disappears for simplicity sake
I guess the stills and close up shots are still pretty good.

Logan James
Logan James

Lewd

Kayden Jenkins
Kayden Jenkins

Because the selling point of anime is the visual strikeness. The eye candy. The style and energy.

Visual attractiveness is very hard to do without stylization which is almost impossible to do in 3D because it is superstreamlined. You cannot stray from the road without having to spend a lot on developing your own tools. So everything 3D looks the same.

The plots are laughable by western standards and so is the acting. Merely doing it 3D just to pump out stories benefits no one.

Landon Howard
Landon Howard

Well thanks user, I assume I'll be able to decipher that picture when I actually start trying to find episodes.

Carson Brooks
Carson Brooks

Inanimate objects are immensely easier than actual people. That's where the uncanny valley is relevant.

Her skin still looks like plastic or wax. If that's intentional, fine. But as long as people look as clumsy as they do now, CG is still going to be insufficient.

It also needs updating. You should get the pattern, though.

Really, just avoid the older series and you'll get it sorted.

Evan Jenkins
Evan Jenkins

Yeah, I'll work it out myself.

Thanks again.

Ian Sanchez
Ian Sanchez

There's just two kind of good CGI on anime, Mecha shit(because looking less alive actually fit the robots) and Etotama(because it's the greatest anime of all time).

Adrian Howard
Adrian Howard

That one catgirl at the end.
Definitely going to check this out now.

Lincoln Morales
Lincoln Morales

post fucking disregarded, christ kill your fucking self.

Grayson Morgan
Grayson Morgan

that looks fuckin amazing

John Myers
John Myers

Etotama only looked good cause it was clear the people doing the cg were talented and that it was fucking expensive as fuck. It also was used to work with the 2d instead of trying to replace it or be a budget cut. They also loved to beg people to buy their BDs.

Cooper Mitchell
Cooper Mitchell

I think you're quite the comedian, OP.

Luke Bennett
Luke Bennett

CG is the future whether Sup Forums likes it or not. It'll just get to the point where it's nearly indistinguishable from regular animation. The cost and time difference to produce is way too big to ignore.

Joseph Powell
Joseph Powell

next ova/movie when?

Brandon Lee
Brandon Lee

There aren't enough animators because it pays peanuts.

Dylan Jones
Dylan Jones

It's not anime.

Plus, Ajin looks like shit compared to an anime from 2009.

Brandon Foster
Brandon Foster

That's not how supply and demand works.

Logan Cruz
Logan Cruz

It'll just get to the point where it's nearly indistinguishable from regular animation
No.

Jordan Walker
Jordan Walker

You deserve a smug for this webm

Andrew Green
Andrew Green

Never
Much like the doujins

Austin Baker
Austin Baker

It is when there's no influx of money in the industry and no unions.

Jackson Miller
Jackson Miller

Japan doesn't have unions period.

Eli Young
Eli Young

Keep being delusional, user. It will never be the future and it will never be indistinguishable from hand-drawn animation. CG always will have that lifeless feel to it and while it is cheap to do, it is only cheap to shit out a pile of shit. CG that has any quality to it still requires just as much money, time and talent and it still doesn't feel as nice as traditional animation. The cost to produce it can't be ignored only if you are looking to shit out hundreds of products a season that is just QUALITY.

Levi Murphy
Levi Murphy

Also, I would add that there is a surplus of anime, which is why the production cost isn't going up.

Jose Hill
Jose Hill

The future is actually anime written, drawn, directed and produced by AI.

Hope this helps.

Hudson Johnson
Hudson Johnson

like QUALITY isnt alive and well with regular animation

Hudson Morales
Hudson Morales

That's not what he's saying.

Kayden Richardson
Kayden Richardson

Shitty framerate (usually for blending with traditional 2D art), and it still looks unnatural and shitty for the most part.

Dominic Nguyen
Dominic Nguyen

No, but they do have labor laws, that the disorganized nature of the animation industry allows it to circumvent. Errybody "freelance"

Sure there's a shit ton of companies with awful working conditions, but those companies almost always have a salary, as opposed to a per frame/cut pay system. That's a big factor.

Ryder Hernandez
Ryder Hernandez

Are you seriously trying to compare failed schedules to intentionally shitting out garbage?

Andrew King
Andrew King

I thought most shows barely break even. Why is there such a surplus?

Leo King
Leo King

The computerized nature of CG means it has nearly limitless potential. Traditional animation will always be limited because it's made by humans. The cost will keep getting lower and lower and it will keep getting better and better while regular animation stays the same.

Carson Reyes
Carson Reyes

Etotama was great because the textures look fucking fantastic and the animation is very exaggerated and quick instead of limp and lifeless like so many other CGI out there

James Jones
James Jones

Because most shows actually turn a profit eventually. What, you believed those sales threads?

Tyler Stewart
Tyler Stewart

The fcuk are you talking about, CG animation is also made by humans. They face the same limitations as anything human directed faces.
Computers don't just shit out fully rendered models when you press a button you know.

Carson Stewart
Carson Stewart

This is literally why I couldn't watch Aijin or God Eater. It just looks so bad. Uncanny valley is one thing but sometimes it just looks like they're trying to stretch a shoestring budget until it snaps.

Regular animation has worked since anime was created. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

John Thompson
John Thompson

Because shrek was las good 3d anime

Bentley Garcia
Bentley Garcia

I'm talking about the technology involved. The first Toy Story looks like shit to anything made today, but was considered revolutionary back then.

Tyler Long
Tyler Long

Except, that isn't how it works. Are you fucking stupid? Traditional animation has unlimited possibilities as far as the human imagination goes? You are stating that because traditional is done by humans, it has a limit. But, do you know who does the CG? Humans. EVERY part of it, including the software. CG faces the same limitations as traditional and if anything, traditional has less limitations.

Hand drawn animation is limited only really by ones talent, CG is limited by computers, their capabilities and tons of other shit. CG also will never look as good, because its computer generated. To achieve the same life and feel as traditional requires just as much or if not, more time, money and talent. Digital works are completely different to traditionally done ones and require actual talent and lots of time to imitate traditional. That gap won't ever be closed until AI/VI is at a much much higher devolved stage.

I'm pretty sure God Eater was actually hand drawn.

Isaac Brooks
Isaac Brooks

There's like 70 shows per season, and the average sales numbers are around 3000 per DVD.
Companies make shows, barely break even, and then have to make another show to pay off the debt/keep the lights on. Failure to break even a couple times in a row is what sank Manglobe, for example. Meanwhile the industry is overflowing with offers for adaptations from the game, lightnovel, manga industry etc so the number of shows in production goes up. "Gloss", or outsourcing entire episodes to smaller companies aggravates this problem, because a studio can start a production thinking they can just outsource whatever they can't finish in house. Outsourcing outsourcing is rampant as well, and the further it gets down the ladder the more fucked the schedule is.

Angel Gomez
Angel Gomez

That still doesn't make any sense.

Jace Sanders
Jace Sanders

Toy Story was revolutionary back then because it was new tech. That was about it.

Nolan Ross
Nolan Ross

What are you smoking? God Eater looks great.

James Collins
James Collins

i think hes saying hand drawing is like regular running and walking. you can be very good at it but you can never keep up with a car

Henry Campbell
Henry Campbell

That still doesn't make any sense and sounds like a shitty analogy for cg vs traditional.

Robert Bailey
Robert Bailey

Toy Story 1 looks much better than Aijin or Sidonia.

Elijah Anderson
Elijah Anderson

What a stupid analogy.
The only way in which CG animation is improving is realistic rendering, but that doens't make it superior. It still requires someone with talent to utilize well.

Grayson Turner
Grayson Turner

The first Toy Story looks like shit to anything made today, but was considered revolutionary back then.

It looks great still. Maybe not in terms of realism, and some of the humans look off, but the fact that it has a very cartoony style and the animation itself was done by veteran 2d animators means that the motion of it is excellent because they actually put the effort and care of animating those frames with a traditional animation mindset without the tools readily available today.

Also, it's a complete non-sequitur to your previous statement.

Jacob Walker
Jacob Walker

yes but just like cars its getting more and more user friendly. running especially fast still takes training and talent compared to a few weeks driving a car

Brody Myers
Brody Myers

It's cheap.

Lucas Russell
Lucas Russell

You should probably stop.
These analogies are retarded.

Justin James
Justin James

god eater was CG meme
fuck off

Brayden Johnson
Brayden Johnson

The linking idea is that it looks better and still has more to go. Compare 90s CGI with todays. Hand drawn animation will always look the same.

Andrew Moore
Andrew Moore

Yes, when you sink a whole bunch of dosh into the CGI, it'll look great. Unfortunately, most anime productions don't have the budget to do anything justice.

Wyatt Martin
Wyatt Martin

The glory days are fucking over man.
This article is old but holds true to this very day.
http://www.themarysue.com/dai-saito-anime-is-dying/

Mason Rodriguez
Mason Rodriguez

What kind of big budget projects does Japan have that showcase their competence with CG animation? I can't think of any, but that's just me.

Samuel Martinez
Samuel Martinez

can the hand create something with as much presicion and speed as a machine engineered to do the same thing? nooooo it still needs an operator but is much more efficient

Jace Stewart
Jace Stewart

This still makes zero fucking sense and is a horrible analogy. Just because cg is getting easier to make, it doesn't mean it looks any better. It still requires just as much time, money and talent to do and that factor will never change. CG by default, will always look lifeless.

Hand drawn animation will always look the same.
What a very closed-minded mindset. You couldn't be anymore wrong.

Eli Davis
Eli Davis

No, hand drawn animation will not always look "the same".

Owen Martin
Owen Martin

Outside of huge production houses that spend millions upon millions on 3D modelling, cheap 3D animation looks too uncanny and detract from character believability.

Juan Hernandez
Juan Hernandez

You're a retarded.

Christian Wright
Christian Wright

can the hand create something with as much presicion and speed as a machine engineered to do the same thing?
Yes, user. Who do you think originally did all that? In-fact, master artisans still exist for a reason. A machine can't replicate the precision and shit a human can do as its just a bunch of 0's and 1's. I don't think you understand how stupid you are looking right now. Efficiency means fucking nothing in this matter. The simple fact is, someone with talent could probably still do a better job than that machine.

Kayden Jenkins
Kayden Jenkins

That's from the glory days of pure hand-drawn, though.The animators from those days are dying off, both in Japan and in the West.

Jordan Mitchell
Jordan Mitchell

efficiency means nothing in this matter
Production companies would disagree.

Carson Parker
Carson Parker

But I already do

Brody Wilson
Brody Wilson

Do you've the full webm of the 'em blowing the bridges up?

Joshua Smith
Joshua Smith

What are you talking about? There's tons of extremely talented young animators. Just in this thread someone posted some Yozakura Quartet.
What the fuck does that have to do with the actual quality of the animation itself?

Xavier Hill
Xavier Hill

The big fatties sitting on their arse throwing money around mean jack shit if no one buys their products because it looks like a shit on a plate. CG requires the same amount of money, time and talent to look just as good and it still is incredibly glaring even then.

Brayden Wood
Brayden Wood

CG by default, will always look lifeless.
You sound like a moron. Yes, every single CG production every made looks lifeless. Every single Pixar film, every single 3d videogame animation, every single 3d VFX in any film looks lifeless. Are you serious right now, or is your butthurt at the other guy's idiocy making you type like a fool?

Henry Mitchell
Henry Mitchell

He might have a point that automation could be one way to save hand-drawn animation. What if an algorithm could do in-betweens, or at least generate something that a human just makes minor corrections on? It would speed up production and cut costs.

Jonathan Reed
Jonathan Reed

Most of the time it looks like shit because it's choppy as fuck. I don't know if it's the low framerate or what but it's ass.

Etotama was the only show I've seen that looked very good in motion. Most the CG was done by a company that makes games so it would make sense.

Benjamin White
Benjamin White

Don't think so.

Jason Hernandez
Jason Hernandez

I'm not talking strictly about quality, given unlimited funds and time, masterpieces can be created by hand. But I think we can both agree that isn't realistic in the world of razor thin profits that is anime. It's about balancing cost and quality, you can't tell me most anime made these days looks amazing.

Isaac Walker
Isaac Walker

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
animators are completely broke

Dominic Thompson
Dominic Thompson

Yes, most of those do. A lot of those still look like plastic or wax. The ones that don't have insane budgets and talent put into them and a lot of those still are obvious its cg.

Gavin Powell
Gavin Powell

That's modern digital animation like they do in the West. Y'know, like Cartoon Network stuff? When the tools to automate things are given to you, rather than spending the extra effort on something else, it's better just to do nothing and save time and money. The whole in-between automation thing was already part of 3d production as well. You don't think that 3d just happens in a void and you plug in numbers do you? Just like 2d you have to keyframe the things you storyboarded and then it gets tweened, only now we rely less on Coreans and more on computers.

Andrew Morris
Andrew Morris

But that was the subject of the discussion, the quality of the animation. Of course 3DCG can be cheaper, it'll just look like shit. Much like how cheap 2D animation can look like shit.

Liam Gray
Liam Gray

I'm still blown away with how good that short looked, especially with how it sort of carried the illusion of being done in a single long take, but in animation instead.

Aaron Morgan
Aaron Morgan

Why can't Japan into cel shading?
They can in videogames

Josiah Rogers
Josiah Rogers

Memories was awesome.

Jackson Sanchez
Jackson Sanchez

My entire argument is that CGI is advancing. Your opinion that it will always look like shit is just that, an opinion. You can't possibly know.

Nathaniel Smith
Nathaniel Smith

Yes it was.
tfw you'll never get something remotely as good.

Dylan Watson
Dylan Watson

Western animation also has the advantage of extremely long lead times of like 2 years, at least for broadcast television animation.

Owen Price
Owen Price

Are those clips from that short movie anthology that came out in theatres a couple years ago?

Gabriel Wilson
Gabriel Wilson

Then why does Japan still heavily outsource? If computers can already do in-betweens shouldn't they just use that instead?

Wyatt Jones
Wyatt Jones

And something that was hand animated will almost always look like a drawing. Matte paintings almost always look like flat paintings. Practical props and effects look like meat or rubber or controlled explosions.

It sounds like you really don't have an argument as to what constitutes lifeless. I'm a huge advocate of practical effects but for as many things they do to bring verisimilitude to a movie they do just as many things that can take you out. For animation, paper drawings are a medium and it looks like that medium. The same applies to a pure CG production, it's going to look like what it's set out to look like, but there's nothing inherent in these media that makes one less "lifeless" than another.

What's lifeless is how things are done. There's plenty of shitty traditional animation. Most shit scenes in anime are still hand drawn. Shit CG scenes looking like shit has little to do with 3dcg in and of itself.

Robert Wood
Robert Wood

It legitimately saddens me that we'll never get something of an equal caliber again.

Joshua Nguyen
Joshua Nguyen

The entire thread is about the quality of cg improving to the point that its cost less and has equal quality to current animation. The simple fact is, CG will always look like CG and ass unless you throw tons of resources at it.

Levi Fisher
Levi Fisher

Automated inbetweens for frame-by-frame animation is far from ready for mass usage. Even western 2D cartoons use traditional animation. The shows with automated inbetweens are those that use 2D assets and shapes like puppetry rather than being drawn frame-by-frame.

Nolan Sanchez
Nolan Sanchez

My argument is that it doesn't matter if your program can render every hair on a dogs ass, if the person using it is low talent/rushed for time it won't look good.

Caleb Young
Caleb Young

I'm not quite sure what you mean with "mainstream high art." Plenty of popular shows - both actual mainstream daytime stuff and top-selling late night - have completely normal FPS.
Also, did you just call fucking rwby an anime? Kill yourself.

Evan Lee
Evan Lee

As it was already mentioned in the thread, a lot of it is still hand drawn in pencil and then scanned in. Pretty much just effects, coloring, and compositing are the digital production part.

Have you seen the garbage on Cartoon Network? My point is that while I have no problem with digital production techniques in and of themselves, things like auto-tweens are part of the cancer that has killed Western broadcast animation. That and shitty budgets, but that's universal.

Recent, if like almost two decades is recent. It's Memories.

Jacob Brown
Jacob Brown

Speaking of which

Elijah Sullivan
Elijah Sullivan

shitty budgets
Don't they have massive budgets, at least by anime standards?

Isaiah Wood
Isaiah Wood

So the pace technology is advancing doesn't make a lick of difference in how much you have to invest to make CG look good?

Alexander Miller
Alexander Miller

Most of that goes to paying animators living wages and towards VA's and whatever celebrity cameo they have to shove in.

Jason Williams
Jason Williams

What gets me here is that the explosions are hand drawn.

Parker Young
Parker Young

Most of that goes to outsourcing Flash animation to Koreans and towards VA's and whatever celebrity cameo they have to shove in.
FTFY

Angel Price
Angel Price

Yes.

Jackson Torres
Jackson Torres

Yes you dumbass. CG will always look like fucking shit unless you throw resources at it and talent. How the fuck is throwing more processing power at that shitsome how going to make something halfassed done look good? What, you think throwing cheap effects will make it look better?

Evan Garcia
Evan Garcia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz1wRYnlcdg&index=21&list=PLRfbSE7bP95txM-4oWh4xBi-iL-TY85RG

I want Trinity and Beyond fully done in old cell ova style.

Ethan Morgan
Ethan Morgan

Just a reminder Sup Forums
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLMimcmxIdk

Michael Ortiz
Michael Ortiz

The same can be said of any art form, the difference with computers is that they keep getting more powerful and easier to use. The tools are getting better.

Ian Rivera
Ian Rivera

Final Fantasy XV: Kingsglaive, pretty much

Gabriel Rogers
Gabriel Rogers

The tools aren't getting better, they are getting easier to use. That DOES NOT mean they produce a better product. Something being easier to use doesn't mean suddenly the shit it produces will better, because, again, that still requires fucking money and talent. As time goes on, CG gets easier to make and that is it. It still requires just as much money and talent to produce good products.

This argument is some giant circle.

Austin Ramirez
Austin Ramirez

There are diminishing returns with improvements in the tools, though. You can't skip the basic steps of making models, storyboarding and figuring out how scenes will play out, and of course, creativity. The tools do provide some degree of productivity advantages, and can make good-looking scenes with less processing horsepower, but ultimately, you still need time and money.

Until they invent a machine where you can turn images directly from your imagination into fully-animated machines, this won't change. But I can say with certainty that doujins will be amazing once that technology exists.

Asher Garcia
Asher Garcia

Both the tools are getting better and they are getting easier to use. Did you think they stopped trying to create new algorithms and methods for animation? Now I'm not arguing that CG isn't hard work, but things like algorithms that improve line continuity in cell shaded works are in continuous development and improvement.

Adam Lopez
Adam Lopez

I guess I'm just having a hard time believing it takes as much effort to use cgi effectively THESE DAYS as drawing thousands of cels for a few minutes of animation.

Alexander Cox
Alexander Cox

That's not going to solve the main issue of shitty, jerky motion and people who don't know how to make or rig a character model. Maybe the shit hair will be fixed with technology, but that still feels like a decade away.

And before all that, there's the increasing expectations of consumers along with increasing sophistication of the technology. Shitting out something at low budget with poor talent will always look bad to consumers that are used to Hollywood blockbusters.

Ryder Ross
Ryder Ross

One is 2d and the other is 3d. For all intents and purposes, 2d has less work to do.

Camden Green
Camden Green

CGI is definitely faster than hand-drawn, especially traditional cel-based.

The problem is that 90% of pure CGI productions cut corners in all the wrong places, which completely throws away the potential to make something that approaches the level of hand-drawn without taking nearly as much time or resources.

Adam Ramirez
Adam Ramirez

Idolmaster, even Live for You, still looks way better than most CGI IN ANIMATION.

I will admit for cell shading, the character designs are attractive in stills. But animation-wise Idolmaster looks vastly superior.

Which is funny because the newer [email protected] games look terrible. Later PreCure shading looks bad too, compared to the All-Stars DX ending which had fantastic animation.

Asher Sanders
Asher Sanders

Gee, I don't remembering arguing that wasn't the case, but fluid/physics simulations and lighting and shading algorithms do make a huge difference in the amount of work that needs to be done and in the end visual experience for the audience. Improvements in the technology do help even if you are working at a basic level. Being able to focus on an actual movement rather than just the details of the lighting most of the time is a boon, but even then it takes the proper tech as well as knowledgeable animators/technicians to know when things are and aren't looking like shit, and when and how to fix problems manually. Which I agree is not something you usually find in a broadcast anime.

Henry Williams
Henry Williams

For all intents and purposes, 2d has less work to do.
Confirmed for having never done a 2d animation.

Tyler Sanders
Tyler Sanders

you're a fucking idiot

Julian Gutierrez
Julian Gutierrez

Not really. The amount of detail that goes into 3D animation is insane, because you have to define how every object looks from every angle, which includes modelling, texturing, normal mapping, bump mapping, defining material properties and sub material properties, creating a skeleton, rigging the model to properly deform with the skeleton, setting up your lights and more. Then, if anything looks wonky, you have to pour a massive amount of resources into tweaking things outside the default/known setups. So low budget shit just lets everything look wonky.

Oliver Phillips
Oliver Phillips

It was a statement in regards to the fact 2d is flat and there is tons of ways to easily cut your work load. 3d models are 3d. If you don't do it right, everything will look like shit. One involves a single angle, the other involves them all.

Brayden Perez
Brayden Perez

If you're making something pixar quality with a 300 million dollar budget and a half decade of production time, yeah people are going expect boundaries to be pushed past their limits. If you're making something for TV? Fuck no.

Zachary Sullivan
Zachary Sullivan

I dont' really get the appeal. It looks great in video games but in anime they insist on using the same 23.9fps and neglect all the principles of animation that make 2d look good. It just ends up as choppy garbage.

I more or less like this one but you can tell how hard they tried to make it look the way it does. The start-and-stop shit is so meticulous and by 2d standards it's comical and almost boring.

See pic related, animation like this is one of the reasons I have a lot more appreciation for flat images than 3d. Until they learn how to render movement like this in a "cinematic" framerate without it being either unnoticeable or choppy, 2d will always feel better to watch.

Anthony Collins
Anthony Collins

Wasn't all the Etotama cg done by Koreans?

Nathaniel Gray
Nathaniel Gray

It doesn't mean that you can avoid doing all the stuff I just mentioned. Of all those steps, bump mapping is the only optional one, and it's usually a tool to let you have less detailed models.

James Collins
James Collins

not using MadVR Smooth Motion

Dylan Thompson
Dylan Thompson

Yes, but the cost isn't comparable when you scale down the production values to cable television. It's much cheaper.

Landon Cooper
Landon Cooper

The idol stuff in precure kind of changed my mind of CG. It doesn't look like complete garbage if it's done well but I imagine stuff like that takes as much effort as making good 2D stuff.

Jordan Ward
Jordan Ward

It just takes less money and talent, huh.

Matthew Barnes
Matthew Barnes

The way characters look has gotten better.
Vehicles and machines still look the same as the fucking tachikomas from sac over ten years ago.

Bentley Thomas
Bentley Thomas

Those idol segments were the only enjoyable parts of that show.

Kayden Richardson
Kayden Richardson

The mary sue
fuck off

James Allen
James Allen

One of the problems of 3D is unnatural movement. Animation is done by skeletal movement, and the result look like a ball jointed doll instead of human.

Also 3D is very limited in terms of expression. You will never be able to do effects like this with 3D models

That's why 3D CGI is shit. It's very limited and non-artistic set of tools to produce a cheap animation.

Samuel Hill
Samuel Hill

They haven't found the sweetspot yet.

If they go full 60fps, it looks uncanny (I think some chibi cat-girl one did that)
If they try to replicate anime at limited 24fps, it looks choppy as fuck(See Ajin at certain scenes)

They need to find a sweetspot where it doesn't look uncanny as fuck.

Ajin also tried using multiple framerates (see webm), which makes the changes very noticeable.

Owen Williams
Owen Williams

I only like 3D CG if it's done lazily in an ad-lib show

Hunter Diaz
Hunter Diaz

I don't mind it if it's done well, unfortunately it just winds up looking cheap a lot of the time and breaks my immersion.

Charles Ramirez
Charles Ramirez

I think it always looks like shit. Really makes me not want to bother with anything that has it. At least there is a lot of old anime to go through.

Ryder Barnes
Ryder Barnes

Also hate even more than anime that try to go 3D is when they replace the 2D sprites in a VN type game with shitty 3D models. FUCK that noise.

David Flores
David Flores

chibi characters don't look uncanny only because they are not resembles the humans. That's why all pixar humanoid characters are deformed as shit as well

Connor Collins
Connor Collins

Bubuki was kind of a shitty show but the CG animation was really well done.

Easton Reed
Easton Reed

You have a point.

Having CG humans just enhances the Uncanny Valley effect.

Wyatt Sanders
Wyatt Sanders

Not all. But a significant amount of it was.

Brandon Butler
Brandon Butler

Says computer animation is getting better
Posts static screenshot

How do you even function on a regular basis?

Tyler Watson
Tyler Watson

24 FPS is the standard for animation, CG anime goes lower than that.

Landon Cruz
Landon Cruz

If i want vidya i play vidya

Alexander Gonzalez
Alexander Gonzalez

Only cgi heavy anime I've liked was Yamato 2199.

Gabriel Murphy
Gabriel Murphy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN_CP4SuoTU
One day maybe.

Juan Peterson
Juan Peterson

Otaking a shit

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