2017

>2017
>Combat still relies on "make the enemy's number 0 before your number becomes 0"

Do good versions of combat without damage numbers exist?

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Dwarf Fortress.

>Combat still relies on "make the enemy's number 0 before your number becomes 0"
That's essentially what it boils down to in real life.
>Do good versions of combat without damage numbers exist?
How would you even go about programming something like that? Off the top of my head, MGSV can have you shooting enemies without them dying but still be incapacitated.

Came here to post this.

You are mentally retarded.

Spess Station 13 is another good example, not as hardcore as Dorf Fort though.

>You are mentally retarded.
Please explain. In real life it's either kill or incapacitate, and in combat the objective is to get your opponent to either of those states before you yourself are in either one of them.

I've never played Dwarf Fort or Space Station 13, but from what I've heard, though the combat is extremely varied, it sounds like it still breaks down to that simple programming.

oh so NOW you don't like the visual damage indicator

In fact it does, and even games where you die in one hit, it still means your HP bar is 1/1.

>Sup Forums selects arbitrary topic as hill to die on
sky blue, water wet, Sup Forumsirgins stewing in their own juices getting a little madder and a little more broken every single goddamn day

You are focusing on implementation details and completely overlooking the semantics.

No, it's nothing like that at all. In Dwarf Fortress, it's the function of their internal organs that keeps people alive - though damage to the brain can give them mental problems of leave them in permanent paralysis. No-one has health points, instead losing function of particular organs by way of them being pierced, bashed, burnt or even removed, etc, can cause death, as well as things like blood loss. To damage those you need to get through the actually simulated layers of armour, clothing, skin and muscle (damage to muscle will destroy use of limbs, obviously). When actually fighting, different entities (including the player in Adventure Mode) can even grab any of these body parts, as well as target them in various ways - its not uncommon to actually see a whole limb removed and then used to bash someone to death - the bashing being a simulation of skin, muscle and bone being broken down to get at the vital organs.

S13 has a similar but simplified system, just looking at body parts more generally, which can take different types of damage that impeded different functions. It also has a more general heart rate, which is the nearest thing to SS13's "health bar" - that is literally just measuring how well your heart is doing though, and isn't in fact measuring how fuckin ded you are. (different drugs can prop it up to keep you out of critical condition while other medical procedures are performed, but lose your fuckin head and you are dead regardless).

That just sounds like nested HP bars. Same general system just layered on top of each other.

>tfw still no game with proper limb damage
>tfw you will never play a game with only one arm so you have to rely on handguns only
>tfw you will never play a game armless and run towards someone with a knife in your mouth

Why can't games do this shit?

>completely overlooking the semantics.
Then if Op is asking for games without numbers then none exist. If he's looking for games combat that is more then JRPG style then there's tons.

See you are paying to much attention to the details instead of actually looking at the framework of how those systems are put in place. What you just posted is advanced and complex, but still very much a version of HP.

literally any simulator
in arma you bleed out

heh yeah. and what if your gta guy had to like call an ambulance and go through surgery and intense physical rehab for three years regaining the use of their crippled limbs. that'd be fun and accessible for everyone and not autistic NYAAARGH THAT'S NOT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE, ILLOGICAL idiots

There is a big difference. One is a whole bunch of interconnected systems tracking the health and state of your organs/limbs, the other is a health bar for a character that is just a number.

Both the implementation and the way they play out are dramatically different. All that share in common is "lol they both use numbers xD" by which point you are just being facetious as that covers every fuckin gameplay mechanic possible. You can apply an on/off to anything.

Nope, the framework is what is different. Its not a version of HP, it's a completely different system that models damage in its own way.

smash bros.

t. cod babbie that prefers the splashed strawberry juice on screen

>What is Dwarf Fortress
>What is Space Station 13
>What is fuckin Deus Ex

ummm, every single game that has blood loss leading to death mechanics?

...

>name-calling
excellent rebuttal

It's actually really, really fun and adds loads to the experience. The rehab for years bit works in games like Dorf Fort because its a city building sim on that kind of scale, and the whole surgery side is fun in games like SS13 because people are actually playing the doctors, just like someone was playing the Shitcurity that didn't protect you, and someone was playing the xenomorph that ripped off your arm.

You don't know what semantics means do you?

>Does digital combat exist that isnt some form of dice gamble?

Because it cant being digital and all.

is this a falseflag to make melee players look bad?

none of those games are realistic, though

you can't be all WHY AREN'T VIDEO GAME MECHANICS REALISTIC LIKE REAL LIFE and then apply that logic to fucking ... donkey kong country

video games have their own internal logic in order to abstract tedious unnecessary shit away from the player. otherwise you end up with absolutely stupid shit like a 'make solid snake inhale' and 'make solid snake exhale' button, or a control scheme that's like QWOP because you don't just imagine pressing W in real life to move forwards, you use your legs and knees and ankles!!!

>All that share in common is "lol they both use numbers xD"
Then perhaps OP shouldn't have opened with damage numbers.

It models damage based off of organs and limbs, clothing and material, which I guarantee that if you went into the programming, would guarantee some HP like mechanic.

Status Effects.

It's linguistics and meaning and shit. If OP was talking about anything that wasn't a health bar instead of actual programming then yes I've acted like a retard.

Smash Bros you retard.

Not that guy, but while Smash Bros has an HP mode - the game is about launching your opponents out from the battlefield boundaries.
Dealing damage will never kill them and there is no "0", althrough we can argue that 300+% is like 0 HP because most attacks will instakill you

Blame normalfags for ruining every single genre to the point you can't tell the difference between games because they all boil down to a different person perspective of press X to receive instant gratification. (now with multiplayer and non- tradeable loot boxes!)
In Fallout 2 you could cripple the enemy's eyes and his perception would go down to 0 making him virtually unable to hit.
destroying limbs worked too.

dont want to spoil it for you guys but literally everything in a computer is a number

Health bars relate to how much shit you can take before your luck runs out and a bullet penetrates your armour, or the enemy lands a lucky punch or whatever. This is how you can still walk and talk with 1 out 100 HP left: because your guy is ragged and can't take much more. Congratulations, problem solved by use of imagination, instead of being told how to think by the game. You utter fucking brainlet.

>Blame normalfags
nah it's your fault

Your argument was not better retard.

Besides, I'm not feeling like explaining why a more advanced system would be fun for some types of games to someone who instantly discards the idea as "annoying" or "boring".

Monster Hunter

if the monsters you fight are visibly limping, that's the only way you'd know they're low on health

>Besides, I'm not feeling like explaining why
well, thanks for posting! great contribution to the thread!

Hehe, I just drew a stickman. Pretend he is an ultra HD player character with perfect animations! What is that? You can't? Fucking brainlet, can't even use your imagination!

This is how you sound.

Yea Bushido Blade from P1 and shitty modern games with regenerating health.

PS1

>skipped the part where I called you a retard for instantly dropping the idea

No need to explain to normalfag retards that cannot bother to use their brain and think it through first. Obviously it wouldn't work out for every game but it could be a great addition to others. Now go and be a retard somewhere else.

Reminds me how I imagine Phoenix Downs to work and gameplay/cutscene dissonance.

No one dies during a JRPG battle but they do die after everyone is KO'd and the enemy can just kill them all without getting stopped by the rest of the party.
So Phoenix Downs don't cure death and there is no "Luck meter before you take a deadly blow" like you said in cutscenes.

I can imagine it alright, but so what? I can also imagine a perfect fighting game but I surely can't play it with others in my own mind.
While instead I can imagine HP to work in that way if I really want to force logic in vidya

You're missing the point. Adding small amounts of realism can actually lead to way more interesting gameplay. It's better than just enver trying new things and sticking with the same shitty mechanics as mainstream games have used for decades.

user that's still numbers, only the numbers themselves aren't being displayed. Your hits do X damage, and if the monster receives Y x X damage, it dies

HP stands for "health points". You are just abstracting to the point of ridiculous if you think ANY number in any gameplay system is the same as a "health point". If you follow it down long enough, everything is numbers. OP asked for games that don't have health bars and we gave him some.

>Adding small amounts of realism can actually lead to way more interesting gameplay
What are you even saying? Do you want me to ask you how 'small amounts of realism' would make Space Harrier a better game?

typing of the dead

string value instead of int

Bushido Blade

>if you think ANY number in any gameplay system is the same as a "health point"
No just any numbers that relate to the player characters health.

>OP asked for games that don't have health bars and we gave him some.
Technically he asked for anything without damage numbers but regardless, I have already pointed out that I misinterpreted his question. I'll make up for my mistake by posting games with combat I enjoyed a lot.

Mirrors Edge
Condemned: Criminal Origins
Mount and Blade Warband
Dishonored

I don't see how you could be so confused by such a simple statement. Are you just acting retarded on purpose to bait?

I'm just saying that gameplay mechanics based on realism can be great. In general, simulation based design is my favourite. I never said it was the best for every game.

Then understand that, in Dwarf Fortress, a character's health is not tied to a single number, but a whole network of various states bits of their body can be in. Like real life!

Bushido Blade.

>In general, simulation based design is my favourite. I never said it was the best for every game.
well then someone's muddying the waters because they're mad as hell at the concept of numbers and HP bars or some such shit

I never said it was tied to a single number. I said that the various bit themselves have numbers relating to them.

For fucks sake, I hope you understand that I haven't dissed Dwarf Fortress combat in the slightest, just said that it still boils down to the same base mechanics as every other game.

but... it's combat, with damage numbers

That might have been a different user to me? It seems you got confused, what post are you referring to?

I'M NOT REFERRING TO YOU, YOU DENSE MOTHERFUCKER

WE ARE HAVING A CONVERSATION
I AM NOT INTERROGATING YOU
YOU ARE NOT BEING ACCUSED OF ANYTHING
I AM FEELING EXASPERATED NOW, THOUGH

FUCK'S SAKE

But there is no "you die past this point".
It all boils down to "make the other character fall/exit the stage boundaries", and it can happen at any moment.

Are you okay?

Your post before was responding to mine. Then you started talking about "someone's muddying the waters", so I assumed you meant me. I didn't think we were having an argument I was just trying to help sort out any confusion, chill user.

Maybe because it turns out, you can't really model damage (or really, model anything) without using numbers?

Well no, it doesn't boil down the same base mechanics at all, as I've shown. How can you even say those are the same? They are demonstrably different.

In a game with HP Bars, any damage given to the character is deducted from their total HP, until they die. In Dwarf Fortress (for instance), there is no bar tracking their "Health", instead their health is best summed up by the status of different parts of their body including climbs and certain internal organs. I'm not entirely sure, but I think Dorf Fort measures the amount of blood and the overal temperature, but that mWell no, it doesn't boil down the same base mechanics at all, as I've shown. How can you even say those are the same? They are demonstrably different.

In a game with HP Bars, any damage given to the character is deducted from their total HP, until they die. In Dwarf Fortress (for instance), there is no bar tracking their "Health", instead their health is best summed up by the status of different parts of their body including climbs and certain internal organs - not just numbers but various statuses.

Those are about as different as two mechanics can be. Absolutely everything has numbers or just on/off states attached to it in coding, it's silly to talk in those terms.

I'm not defending dorf fort just explaining that these are about as different ways of handling it as it is concievable, and exactly what OP was asking for. It's like the difference between a successful gameover being measured by a high score, or completely various objectives/getting hidden endings. Those are different things.

RIP whatever the fuck happened to the start of my post

I always liked how wario land did "damage"

yes, and this whole dumb thread made by retard OP is pointless

>But there is no "you die past this point".
that's not really the point though is it

>make the enemy's blood number 0 before your blood number is 0

How was that?

Bushido Blade 1 and 2

There are games that don't involve hit points.

In smash bros you need to increase their % don't you?

Don't tell me Nintendo party games are better than all other games because of some damage formula

Except that's not how those games work, blood is just one of several ways someone can die. Its the difference between needing to specifically incapacitate someone by going after their health in various ways, or just hurting them until their HP is 0.

It's called NeverDead and if fucking sucks.

I haven't played it since i was a kid but you don't really die in that game (i think you can still fall down pits) when an enemy hits you, its sort of like kirby where you take their ability but its usually for puzzle solving or simply taking you back to an earlier point of the level instead of using their powers to kill shit

for example if a zombie hits you, you turn into a zombie until you touch light and it makes you slow and move in random directions

There's total war series.

The morale/leadership system makes the game more about putting the enemy's army in temporary, unpleasant situations than actually lowering their HP to 0.

Like, landing a flank charge with peasants onto heavily armored shit isn't going to actually do any damage, but it makes them panic and leg it anyway.

>not following the bushido makes you unable to finish the game
I didn't know for years how to get that "secret" level with the gunman, because I was always a dick and just ran through the enemies right at the start.

>even games where you die in one hit, it still means your HP bar is 1/1
That's not really true at all. That doesn't even make sense unless you truly believe that literally every single game at its core has an HP counter buried somewhere in the programming.

youtube.com/watch?v=UkUq0tOQhkk

Wow, that's really cool. I love that kind of inventive shit.

>regenerating health
That's a number.

What games don't involve numbers for damage at all?

your second phrase is misleading OP, but I guess you didn't really wants games without health "numbers" because they already exist.

but it kind of makes sense because one wouldn't fight on top condition when closer to death

>aim for groin
>disarm intent
>use stun baton, tonfa, or esword
>if none of the above weapons are available, use toolbox, oxygen canister, or screwdriver
>if opponent is better-armed than you, throw glass shards and floor tiles at them until they slow down enough to close in and disarm

Such a robust, dangerously hardcore combat system.

>This is the type of person that plays Dwarf Fortress

>robust
How can one word be so meme?

>talking about vidya on a vidya message board is bad

>Absolutely everything has numbers or just on/off states attached to it in coding, it's silly to talk in those terms.
Which was my entire argument was with OP. I have admitted my mistake.

Now on to Dwarf Fortress. I'll use Fallout New Vegas for an anology. Take away overall HP and only leave limb damage. The only way to kill an enemy is to completely cripple all of his limbs.Sure the character himself doesn't have HP, but each individual limb does, and the end state is death.

For Dwarf Fortress, you have merely adopted an incredibly dense version of various different states that could result in death. Total blood loss is the same as 0-100. Cuting off the head is the same as 0-100. Dying of Hypothermia is the same as taking an instant kill freeze damage thus making health 0-100.

damn, underaged as FUCK

op i wouldn't suggest that you play shmups, i don't think you would enjoy them

>blood is just one of several ways someone can die
If you look at the programming for all those ways to die, they all use a number, and something happens when that number becomes 0.
>going after their health in various ways
Is this "health" represented by numbers?

Yes, it's called Bushido Blade 2 on PSX.

This is less vidya more overexplaining shit for no reason. You even kinda wrote it like an essay.

games like chess or go. no damage numbers, no stats, no nothing, yet the complexity of gameplay surpasses any shitty rpg.

>hurr look at me i'm a fucking human and can't explain shit without numbers

Numbers are just how we value things. In a way your own vitality depends on numbers, blood pressure, blood volume, heart rate, brain activity.

You've almost understood it now. You're getting closer.

All of those things are examples that lead to death, but death isn't measured by a health bar. Do you see the difference? It's what OP was asking for.

I'll use SS13's amazingly robust combat system as an example. In another game you would win a battle just by doing as much damage to the enemy as possible, whereas in SS13 there are many ways you can kill someone, each with their own rules. Just fuckin removing all oxygen will kill people (unless they have a breath mask attached to an oxygen canister, obviously). Different toxins in their bloodstream can cause different effects, including death, you can burn or freeze people, physically remove limbs so they can't use them anymore, or just do brute damage that equates to smashing their body to pieces.

Many or all of these include numbers, but the fact the numbers are extracted means the gameplay is not centered around a health bar, but instead all the ways you can incapacitate someone.

Everything is going to have numbers in it somewhere, if you are gonna be that facetious as to include 1/0.

We're having a conversation about gameplay mechanics user. Why are you so upset?

Is there no game where you can harm enemies to the point where they can no longer fight, but remain alive? My only gripe with HP is that you're just as capable at 1 HP as you are at 100 HP, only one hit closer to dying in the former.

Nah, just never been into Nintendo games. I'm older than you probably.

and yet rts is way more complicated than chess and go yet it involves not only hp but also mana

Only shit RTS do.

>make the number of moves your opponents king can perform 0

>computers need numbers to describe anything

What a shocker.