Why are these so fucking expensive?

Why are these so fucking expensive?

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shmups.system11.org
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youtube.com/watch?v=QDiHgKil8AQ
epforums.org/showthread.php?56169-Dreamcast-VGA-Compatability-list-amp-Guide
beharbros.com/hanzo
youtube.com/watch?v=zosZPMWQ_ZQ
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idk, jews?

They're not. consider how much it does, what it does, how well it does it, how fast it does it, how flexible it is, niche market, and costs involved, and you'll see the 440 USD average isn't overpriced.

Just emulate.

Do you not own a computer or something?

Why not just get a good CRT at that price?

A) Because they are end of life
B) Niche market, you should have seen how much the old ones used to cost.

>niche market
You sure said a whole lot when you could've just stopped at these two words.

Xcapture or Framemeister

Why? Why don't YOU tell me why while I tell you why NOT.

CRTs:

Have geometry issues

Have whine

Use more power

Are Heavy

Require regular degaussing and maintenance

Are going to fail and are not forward-thinking


This is coming from an ex-PVM owner. There's just not enough benefits anymore, there are better solutions and use for money for a better release.

What exactly does this thing do?

Upscales AV to HDMI

So is it worth it.

>trip fag
>marketer type replies

why am i not surprised?

Unnecessary niche technology that caters not only to an already small market, but the obsessive retards of said market.

The only way a product like that is viable is to crank up the price to such an extent that selling small numbers of units is still profitable. Fortunately the people who buy snake oil are always willing to pay a premium for it.

Is it not worth buying a PVM anymore? I was in the market for one but I haven't had much luck actually finding one that's reasonably priced.

People buy TVs without component cable hookups? Weird.

I mean... not really? Some newer TV's can't receive older signal types. I got a cheap Vizio that can display 4K but can't play PSX games. This is really the only way I could play those retro games on my HDTV without any serious lag.
I just bought an older TV for my retro games though. Keep it in the closet when I'm not playing. I can play most 2D retro games on the Wii on the HDTV.

So nah I wouldn't recommend the $500 or however much they go for these days.

Not at all. Not even remotely.

In general anything a tripfag says is worth ignoring, so that should be argument enough. But if you're looking for more than that, how about a single argument *for* it that is still valid in 2017?

There's a reason this shit was popular only during an era when people still weren't sure if CDs were valid for gaming.

It's sort of amazing that every time a tripfag stumbles his way onto Sup Forums he, without fail, says the most ill informed and retarded shit.

For anyone who doesn't get what these things do, just know that neither does "Mona Fan."

>Are going to fail
Everything fails.

>are not forward-thinking

What did he mean by this

>Not at all. Not even remotely.
But that's what the tripfag said.

I am very learned on the matter, I've studied Fudoh's work religionsly and go to shmups.system11.org frequently to educate myself on the latest developments. Sure, there are others that know more about me, like tripfriend Kya/KDash from /vr/, but no one here is "stubling" on the concept of a scaler.
Depends on your needs. If money and space was no object, every core console fan WOULD have a clean, short cable run, active switching scaler unit being fed through a PVM and an HDTV sacanline generator at once, but the world is not ideal, and not everyone is rich or has space. Is it worth it to get a scaler like a framemiester? That's entirely up to you to decide, but of you want the best of the past while looking towards the future, the answer would be more leaning towards yes.
For most people, not all people of course, but most people... no.

A good Sony PVM is going to set you back on average 150-250 USD plus 60ish USD for shipping. Sure you can play lightgun games on it, but the number of applications and use you are going to get out of it might not be worth it down the line. Along withe the cost, which would be the same or more than a scaler in some cases, you have to deal with the fact that you will actually have to do calibration, display maintenance, and geometry correction. Truly, geometry issues are the Achilles heel of even the best PVM setups.They are getting harder and harder to find, fortunately gefen Component to HDMi transcoders can be found cheap if you luck out, introduce mere nanoseconds of lag, and are clean; it's how I hook up my Xbox to my TV.
True, but in different ways. a PVM will fail slowly and surely, a scaler or switcher will last longer than a lead-ridden tube.
a PVM will only take you back, a nice current low-lag panel with the right combination of scaler, box, switcher, and systems will take you further, for the same or less money.

I got one of these and it has been the only way to play games that require good response time.

Just plugging in my av/svideo cables of N64 into the HDTV didn't cut it and had blurry picture and heavy lag making games like Paper Mario unplayable.

Definitely gonna upgrade to an RGB-modded N64 after seeing the great visuals that you can get out of SNES and Genesis and the scanline filters really do bring out the quality of the graphics FYI.

T. Owner of the Framemeister

>geometry issues
Can be fixed usually
>have whine
Eventually you stop hearing it as you get older +
good sets dont have wine

>Use more power
So what?

>Are heavy
Go to the gym lanklet

>require regular degaussing and maintinence
Both are very wrong if your set is in good condition


>are going to fail and are not forward thinking

as long as the tube dont break you can always fix the electronics

And people throw out regeular crts alot so you can get em for free vs 400 bucks

This is currently how I do my setup, this is just me, by no means is it for eveyrone, but maybe you can get some ideas. Perhaps you'll see how all-in-one isposisble at a budget with minimal comromises and a single screen. First, the display. I use a Vizio D43-D2. It's a budget 200-300 USD panel, but it has 5 great points to it.

1. VERY low input lag.
2. Tweakable horizontal/veritcal cropping and scaling.
3. black-frame insertion clarity enhancement (more on that later)
4. full LED backlight.
5. very clean component input

2 is important, because it means that regardless of what i feed the panel, regardless of resolution, I never, ever have to worry about underscan, Wether it be on Wii U freedom planet or the Sky Crawlers on Wii. It also means I can play NES games in delicious 5X (that's right, 5x, not 4x with window-boxing) with 1 pixel represented by 25 with only the area cropped off that would have not been seen in the first place were I playing it on a CRT in the 80s due to overscan. 3. is useful for some games because unlike invented/frame interpolation 120Hz bullshit, you can hit the lights, dim the brightness, and have a very smooth effect that adds no more lag, just adds some pure black frames. If you are prone to the DLP rainbow effect, this might not work for you, but for Shmups and games like Metal Slug or Daytona USA, the effect is delicious..

Connected to it is a single HDMI cable, connected to a capture card, connected to an HDCP stripper, connected to some daisy chained HDMI selectors. since HDMI is all digital, get the cheapest active manual override selectors you can find.

Now, let's get to the consoles...

...

fuck off already

What does this thing do?

Its a nice upscaler that makes analog singals look much nicer than the ones in most HDTVs.

It is also 400 bucks but tis ok for video games cause it also has less processing delay.

In what way would this be any better than taking your old console, hooking it into a VCR/DVD player with an HDMI out into something like the Sony HTCT 100?

A $500 upscaler.

Because it has a scaler chip that isn't shit.

The framemeister isn't one of those cheap little converters you find for $50. It's basically a little computer that is designed solely for the task of resampling.

Many devices of this class sadly handle and treat 240p as 480i, and it's not pretty. For a primer, I recommend this vid.

youtu.be/lHoOKLWIMKU?t=8m35s

8:35 mark of courwse
I've never seen a free PVM, just consumer grade non-JVC, no S-Video having, dinged up garbage. That's just my experience though, so if you've had it better, I envy you.
Anyways, the conosles.

PS3: my upscaling DVD player, Disc PS1 machine, and PS3 game player.

Xbox 360: aka the box for things that will never get One Back Compat

Dreamcast: Connected via a Hanzo VGA box to a VGA to HDMi transcoder for pure sex.

Xbox One: BD player and main non-Nintendo current gen console.

Nintendo Switch: It never gets used as a handheld

VIta TV 1: This one is modded and used exclusively a an HDMI out PSP games player

Vita TV 2: This is what I use for Vita games.

NES Classic Edition: Used solely for official NERD NES Emulator with personal library injected and scanlines without CRT blur filter on. It's how I play NES games.

Wii U: The holy grail of HDMIout Nintendo and then some love. This machine plays every:

Wii U

Wii

GCN

GB

GBC

SNES

GBA

DS

Genesis

Master System

PC Engine

2600

5200

7800

and SCUMM

game I've owned, wither bought, both digitally, or dumped. If you are a consolidator, Nintendo fan, or piratefag, a 200 USD Wii U direct from Nintendo is one of the best investments you can make. Keep in mind that homebrew allows for amazing options, such as native 16:9 flag signing for 4:3 only GCn games, double rendered resolution DS titles, scaling emulation, and more, eliminating a need for a fancy scaler for many, but not all people. I hate to admit it myself, but we've reached a point where emulation for regular tv play can be as good, if not better, than original hardware and external scaling solutions for some systems.

The idea that you'd recommend a fucking Wii U for emulation makes you the most laughable individual on this board.

Why would anyone listen to someone who can't even perceive frame lag? The Wii U is absolutely atrocious.

Wii: Still connected via component, but I am gradually moving all content to Wii U slowly but surely; it will be officially retired this year.

Xbox: aka the Gunvalkyre, JSRF, OutRun 2 and Crazy Taxi 3 player

As for consoles soon to be connected, I'll get to those, but first...
As much as I love it, it ain't perfect. It has weaknesses like inputs,need for so many dongles, and the fact that it's a line doubler in many respects more than it is a tru de-interlacer (which for some is ideal). Additionally, it has issues with some 5th gen games with changing resolutions, like one of the Chrono games & Sega Rally. It's the reason why, now that most of my needs are taken care of with a brew'd Wii U, I am getting an OSSC instead (you can learn more about this excellent alternative here


retrogaming.hazard-city.de/ossc.html

)and soon hooking up:

Saturn: Getting mine hooked up via RGB with 1 of the cables form this seller.

ebay.com/usr/retro_console_accessories?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

Retrogame and Shumps community swears by her work.

N64: Still debating on how to mod it, but I am leaning more towards an HDMI solution like the Ultra HDMI.

youtube.com/watch?v=QDiHgKil8AQ

PS2: Will be connected through Component to gefen component to HDMI transcoder with forced 480p va XPloder boot disk for PS2 game playing exclusively.
As you can see, without a frameister, all the original hardware, or a PVM, I have pretty much every major console and handheld need covered, while being ready for the future (Dat downsampling to 1080p for everyScorpio game will be sweet). this is just me, but consider the display itself was 200ish, plus the inherent console cost, plus extra cables and boxes, I've probably currently spent less than 400 USD (still 500 USD after building OSSC), which is cheaper than PVM and framiester, & works with 2nd gen to 8th gen games & beyond. That is why I say for the most of us... a PVM ain't worth it.

What's sad is that you didn't get into this shit until this year, or maybe last.

My 20" PVM was 50 bucks, shipped to my door.

I could pick up half a dozen 26-32" sets with a 5 minute car ride.

You've spent a lot of money on an objectively inferior experience.

This is a personal take, just an example of a single all in one solution. YMMV, but it's something to consider. as far as lag on Wii U is concerned, what exactly are you referring to. Controllers? inherent system lag? The Gamepad? The internal scaler of the U is no more laggy than the 360's, no longer has the dreaded aspect and ringing issues on vWii as it did on launch, and for 200 USD, it's an all-around monster of a solution for virtually playing every Nintendo game minus some N64, all 3DS, and all switch. Hardly a bad recommendation.

You want a bad, laggy recommendation? BC PS3 for PS2 games: now THAT is lag. That is exactly the reason why I dumped mine, got a slim, and just use an Xploder boot disc with a component PS2.

I bought my first PVM in 2010 I think. It was a Sony PVM-1271Q i believe. Used an XRGB2 for passthrough a bit, but the geometry issues were driving me insane. I also spent 100 USD on it total, and it weight a ton for its size.

I envy you, having the space and time for all those PVMs/BVMs. As I said prior, in a perfect world indeed...

Fuck the haters, I'll bite.

Mona, I'm sorry. You are clearly quite knowledgeable, so I'll ask you. What is the best way to play GameCube and DREAMCAST on a modern TV, period.

The Wii U has a solid 2 frame latency on everything. That's insanely bad.

It's a trash solution, the Wii at least outputs 240p with lower latency, and it has actual controller ports.

You spend 100 bucks on a fucking 12 inch display? Jesus, talk about being a complete retard. For that price, I'd expect it to be perfect, but it even had geometry issues? You got absolutely raped.

Space literally isn't an issue. I live in a tiny apartment and I have shelf space for a TV.

He's a moron trying to justify a vastly inferior setup because he had a bad experience after doing zero research.

>everytime a tripfag stumbles his way onto Sup Forums

Mona Fan has been shit posting here longer than any of you faggots have been alive. He's a faggot but he's a knowledgeable one at least

First of all, let's get this out of the way.

epforums.org/showthread.php?56169-Dreamcast-VGA-Compatability-list-amp-Guide

Read this list. If any game you NEED to play is in orange, either look for other options, fuggedaboutit, or know that you will never have it look its best on a modern tv. Next, that's a hard one... for Dreamcast, there are only 2 solutions I would and could recommend the first is the Hanzo

beharbros.com/hanzo

This thing is fucking incredible, clean, and has some bonus features too! Don't be tempted by shitty DC VGA cables, they are shoddily built and hand ringing and noise and less compatibility; this box is the real deal. running this through a good VGA to HDMI transcoder (not scaler, transcoder) will introduce maybe nanoseconds of lag (aka lag free for all intents and purposes). The other choice would be the upcoming Akura which is HDMI based by the same people, but though it was very well reviewed by this guy

youtube.com/watch?v=zosZPMWQ_ZQ

it is not out yet.

As for GCN, personally I used just a GCN with component cables for the longest time. I am a fan of GCN component because it's been proven time and again that the single out is cleaner than what Wii AND Wii U can do with their component out. The cost of entry is expensive though. Honestly, I think the best way to GCN right now is via Wii U through an SD card with discs and memory cards dumped from a Wii. Best part is you can modify aspect flags and use the original GCN controller with that smash adapter. If you just need quick and dirty 480p though, Wii with component will do in a pinch, just realize that you're probably gonna get more value out of a Wii U at this stage of the game.

Some guy is working on an HDMI solution for the GCN btw, but again, consider the value. entirely your call though.

240p is nice, specially when being fed through RGB or component to a scaler, but the all-in-oneness of the Wii U is also something to consider. As for lag on everything, jury's still out on that one. Various threads on places like Shmups and even (lol) GAF have shown that lag levels seem to be tied to types of software, rather than hardware, with the main culprit being the non-M2 official VC wrapper. As for PVM, keep in mind that YMMV; not everyone has nearby access to good, cheap ones, and shipping is pricey when you aren't near one; no need to hate on that. I do a lot of research, but you as a PVM lover should know that at this stage of the game, there is a certain need for luck to find a good, cheap, nearby unit. Feel blessed instead of ridiculing the less fortunate.

HDMI GameCube? What?

It's true!

youtube.com/watch?v=nnE_fem4xb0

youtube.com/watch?v=hVX81e6Ig-s

>This guy posts lots of big words and product names, he MUST be knowledgeable about this kind of stuff!
Nice to see someone fall so hard for the Dunning-Kruger effect.

There's nothing wrong with using LCDs, they're cheap and convenient. But pretending they're in any way comparable to a random dumpster CRTs for 5th gen and below is misleading at best, malicious at worst.

6th and even 7th gen games look their best on the more modern CRTs. Only when you get into 8th gen, and actual 1080p games, do LCDs start having an advantage.

PVMs are beginning to become not worth it, but there are still good deals, and you can still pick up top end trinitrons for gas money. It's very stupid to switch to LCD this early in the game, especially when they're so shit.

When we've got 8k light-field displays, then you can start talking about an equivalent experience with a reasonable amount of latency for the sake of convenience. Until then, you're just deluding yourself into thinking this shit is "good enough".

it sucks because the picture from my n64 is so shitty, what're my options to fix this shit.

Either try emulating or get it hdmi modded and use the deblur feature

Watch these, then make your own decision.

youtube.com/watch?v=qpy1M6v2_MI

youtube.com/watch?v=QDiHgKil8AQ

>when someone tells me LCDs are good for retro games
Call me when your resolution is good enough to emulate sub-pixel alignment, you filthy animal.

>Emulating

HAHAHA

Yep, there's a reason why I don't bother hooking up a Genny, NES, or SNES, but absolutely need a real N64, Saturn, and Dreamcast. Let's be honest, it' just isn't there, and possibly never will be.

>shitting on emulation when you're an upscaler
Pot, meet kettle.

yeah but for some games you can get away with emulating on the wii or wii u on official virtual console stuff that runs okay. I agree that n64 emulation sucks though

I don't shit on emulation, I even said that for many cases, but not all obviously, emulation has come to a point where it meets most people's needs.Next time, read some more.

As for those particular system listed such as N64, you're delusional if you think it's come anywhere close to NES and SNES emulation development.
Ring ring! Yep, I'm not using the right filter, yes I had to compress the screenshots, but LCDs that can emulate sub-pixel alignment are here, and I use one very single day.

I don't know what's more terrifying, you thinking that's an example of subpixel alignment, or you thinking that looks even vaguely like any CRT in existence.

N64 I'm surprised that it isn't much better than it was a few years back, and there's STILL no way to play Xbox games in HD except for ports and remakes tossed once in a while.
>6th and even 7th gen games look their best on the more modern CRTs

I dunno, Dreamcast and GCN games can look stunning on a fixed pixel display if hooked up right, especially compared with CRTS of their time. Saying 7th gen games are best on CRT is stretching it, and you know it, unless you are specially referring to 16:9 only Wii titles like NSMBW and Xenoblade which would technically be best on a 16:9 EDTV tube.

I blatantly said I wasn't using the right filter, and of course it's not an example of subpixel alignment. Point is, with a resolution that high, LCD are now CAPABLE of emulating the look. Hell, at these densities, you could accurately pull off a decent Vectrex effect if you wanted to.

>hate emulators
>hate clones
>want true retro gaming™
>use upscalers/etc
I am into retro games but there are really a lot of retards in this community.

>Saying 7th gen games are best on CRT is stretching it,
Nah, they really do. Only when you start getting into the few shitty indie games that actually supported 1080p do LCDs start having a mild advantage.

7th gen games look their best on CRTs, because none of them have decent AA. PC games of the same time-frame, sure, play them on LCDs.

I don't think that's capable, though. There are so many things that are totally off, like the jagged edges on everything. This kind of emulation might be possible in a few years for 240p-tier stuff, but the accuracy is very debatable. Maybe increases in hardware power will allow for things like simulated bloom and phosphor decay rates.

I don't know why you're trying to emulate a curved display, either. Seems like such a stupid idea, flat panels are one of the major strengths of LCDs, why emulate an effect you can never reproduce?

>strawmen
nice memes though

butthurt much?

There is a better reason not to get a crt. They're fucking huge.

>They're fucking huge.
Do you live in a matchbox?

I sure hope you don't own a fridge, or an oven. Those things are MASSIVE. Think of all the space you could save by doing all your cooking on an open flame outside!

DESU, simply "because you can". Honestly, I don't game on. my computer, like at all. I just launched the first ROM in my archive I had. Theres something about a desk that... I don't know, doesn't feel right. I'm a cosnolefag, and that feels right to me, and that's okay. I hate filters, and though I like pimping them out, I am not much into scanlines either (NES is sole exception for me).

As for 7th gen on CRT due to low/now AA... Honestly that doesn't bother me. Geometry issues bother me more than jaggies, because I expect jaggies. I can definitely see, and know of the benefits though; I had my 360 hooked up to a 17inch VGA CRT monitor outputting at 1024x768 for the longest time, and it was glorious.

I live in NYC and cannot find a decent PVM or high quality CRT, what am I doing wrong

>DESU

I can't believe that DESU autocorrected to DESU. That is embarrassing...

You are doing nothing wrong, like I said there is clearly a YMMV element and luck at work.

kys tripfaggot

You live in the most expensive city in the world, and you can't find the kind of items that would be snapped up by hipsters within 2 minutes.

First up, kill yourself for being a New Yorker, and there's no second step, you greaseball scum.

I know what you mean about the desk thing. I think it's mostly because my desk chair is really uncomfortable but I have had a hard time playing anything on my pc lately and I'm glad to see someone else feeling the same way.

why do you hate new yorkers so much

Buy a better chair, dummy. Mine is literally comfier than my bed, I have to restrict the reclining feature otherwise I'd just sleep in it and never move.

Maybe it's a "we're getting older" thing? Old, older college roomie of mine feels the same way, and plays everything even FPS on a TV with his lappy connected via HDMI. For me, desk means computer posting and work, and controller and comfy seat means play.

any recommendations?

Sounds like you need a better bed.

Its worth investing in anything that separates you from the ground for long periods. That includes beds, chairs, and shoes at minimum.

>shoes

go barefoot, more comfy and saves money

Buy an Aeron, second-hand, pay ~300 bucks.

Cool in summer, warm in winter. At the very least, try out a full mesh chair in a store.

Believe it or not, some people work.

That said, if you don't need work boots (at which point, get ready to shell out serious dough for a good pair), the best pair of shoes you can buy are ones with soles that aren't rigid, like loafers or boat shoes.

those look pretty neat. Thanks user

How much input delay do these things add anyway?

More than a transcoder, less than feeding non-native to most sets, unless you are an autist. Mona actually is spot on on most of the info here.

Supply and demand. Stupid thread.

Get/build an OSSC instead, thing is great.

Just wanted to thank everyone, yes everyone, for such an informing read of a thread. I learned a lot.