Teaming up with another pounder and carrying the team to victory together

>teaming up with another pounder and carrying the team to victory together
is there a better feeling on this planet?

Other urls found in this thread:

wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Gravel_Pit_developer_commentary
youtube.com/watch?v=Nh_ItF1wOT0&feature=youtu.be&t=712
teamfortress.tv/8952/?page=1
logs.tf/
youtube.com/watch?v=xO-8skO6Ir0
youtube.com/watch?v=DfUg6KC1Q1c
logs.tf/1813639
youtube.com/watch?v=Mm1ajobCgxA
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

>is there a better feeling on this planet?
playing team fortress 2

as a spy, trick the enemy players into thinking i am a pyro defending the payload from being pushed the last few meters by moving my weapon up and down so it would look like a W+m1 pyro beheavior and win the match.

The pleasure of being bonked inside.

also when as a spy people believe your disguise by mere acting and do a chainstab.

stabbing a medic that was pocketing you, too

UPDATE WHEN

...When?

>how it should be
all classes have specific scenarios where they can be used effectively
>how it should not be
all classes are good at everything

the balance is fine

Whoever made this image is a retard and should never balance class based shooters

People are gonna bitch about not being able to use their mains 100% of the time. And any good servers around?

>all classes are good at everything
except that's not what i said. i don't want every class to be good at everything

pyro and spy are good at 1% of things
soldier is good at 99% of things

it should be
>every class is the best in 11% of situations
>every class is good in 39% of situations
>every class is bad in 39% of situations
>every class is the worst in 11% of situations

"Equally useful" and "unique" are not mutually exclusive like ur saying
and the balance is not fucking fine, "balance" means the player can choose what they enjoy without being at a disadvantage, which is obviously untrue

too bad because this is the balance philosophy valve is going to pursue lmao

Woah its almost like characters fill out different roles with some being designed as specialists and others as generalists

When you're using YER and you stab the pocket, then the Medic starts pocketing you not realizing the pocket was killed and replaced by a Spy.

Wasn't their design philosophy always that Soldier, Demo, Medic and Scout were generalists while the rest were specialist? Didn't they say this in the developer commentary?

you can have characters fill out different roles AND have it be balanced

some roles characters fill out are drastically less useful than others and thus never relevant. that's my point

this is how class based shooters should be balanced:

>these are the classes that are good at everything, but not the best
Soldier, Demo, Scout, Medic
>these are the classes that are useful when you need a class that's the best at a specific thing
Sniper, Engineer, Heavy
>these are the classes that actually need to be buffed so that they are good at something
Spy, Pyro

It's pretty simple.
Like for instance, you wanna run a Soldier most of the time because he's good at pretty much everything, moving, doing damage, you name it. But take those instances where you need to do something that a soldier can't, like drop a medic on uber disadvantage when you can't get in with just rocket jumping alone. That's when you go sniper and shoot their medic in the head.

This is the kind of balancing that every hero shooter needs. Trying to make every class good in that breakdown percentages of situations will literally never happen, so trying to balance for that is just futile. Instead, balancing around the idea of generalists/specialists is much easier, and also much more intuitive for players to learn and understand.

No. I don't even know where to begin with this post.

So for a start, the only class they ever described as "useful both on defense and offense" in the developer commentary was Demoman, and they never used the word "generalist" or "specialist" there. wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Gravel_Pit_developer_commentary

The terms "generalist and specialist" come from an interview with Robin Walker, youtube.com/watch?v=Nh_ItF1wOT0&feature=youtu.be&t=712 where the only classes he mentioned as "generalist" were the Soldier and Demoman (he said nothing about Medic or Scout), and the entire point of him bringing up those words was that some classes being generally useful at everything was a negative gameplay situation they were trying to fix

teamfortress.tv/8952/?page=1 Robin Walker does not actually like the competitive 6v6 format, he finds it too boring and stale. He obviously wasn't saying that the way 6s is played is intentional and TF2 is just designed so that 4/9 classes have obvious supremacy

But that's what 6s players have twisted "generalist and specialist" to mean, in order to justify the game staying exactly the way it is now, because they don't like change.
But things are going to change regardless of whether they like it or not.

I have nothing against 6s players in particular and I think that 6v6 should be TF2's official competitive format when Casual and Competitive balance is meshed together; but mentalities like this are holding the game back

Other than me not liking your tone towards me, I thank you for correcting me.

you do realize that making every class equally viable is not possible right

There's a reason why things like tier lists exist in games where they try to balance to make every character equally viable; because some characters will always be better than others if you balance this way. Just look at Overwatch, the competitive meta is just whatever heroes are the best at any given time, and other heroes are literally never used.

how many hours of tf2 do you have to play to be this autistic about it

Continuing this post:
There's a reason why generalist/specialist balance is important. Because there actually is a reason to play specialists. They have something to offer that can't be found in generalist classes. Ever heard of offclassing? It happens all the time in 6's matches to account for various situations like last holding, uber disadvantage, etc.

>Trying to make every class good in that breakdown percentages of situations will literally never happen
Yeah with that sort of mentality it won't.
It's a VIDEO GAME. We can change anything about it we want, right down to the physics of the world. Literally anything is possible.

Class based shooters should be balanced so that every class is unique and, at the same time, players choose the class they enjoy playing, rather than being forced into playing a class they don't enjoy.

That's bad game design if you force the player to choose between having fun and winning.

We agree on Spy and Pyro, and I think Sniper is in a good place, but:
>these are the classes that are useful when you need a class that's the best at a specific thing: Engineer, Heavy
Almost nobody enjoys playing as or against the "specific thing" Heavy does, so that needs fixing; and both Heavy and Engineer slow down the game and create stalemates, so that needs fixing.

And if there is anyone who actually enjoys playing Heavy or Engineer? The "specific thing" you're talking about is only relevant maybe 5% of the time in TF2's symmetrical modes.

So in a class-based game you're making people play classes they don't enjoy. Why? For what purpose are Engineer and Heavy being kept this way?
sorry if i was rude

Stalemates are not a bad thing. I don't get why getting rid of them is so important. Without stalemates, rounds would just be:
>team 1 wins mid, team 2 wipes
>team 1 rolls team 2 to last and wins the round because they couldn't hold last because stalemates dont exist

>almost nobody enjoys playing heavy or engineer
I know several players off the back of my head that main engineer and heavy.

>The "specific thing" you're talking about is only relevant maybe 5% of the time in TF2's symmetrical modes.
So you're saying it is relevant. And I'd also like to know where you're getting the 5% statistic from. Uber disadvantage and Last holds definitely take up more than 5% of the match.

And like I said, balancing to make every class equally viable is pointless because it will never happen. Again, there's a reason why things like tier lists exist in games that attempt to do this.

>you do realize that making every class equally viable is not possible right
But that's flat out wrong.
it's a video game, anything is possible.
>There's a reason why things like tier lists exist in games where they try to balance to make every character equally viable; because some characters will always be better than others if you balance this way
There are plenty of games that have achieved good balance, Starcraft as one example, its three factions are balanced really well.
Dota 2, a valve game, manages to balance a 100-character roster so that 75% of them are used in high-level play. If they can do that, can't TF2 balance just 9 characters?

I say we can. Four of the characters are already pretty decently balanced alongside each other. All I want to do is extend that same balance to the other 5.
>Just look at Overwatch
"Because one imbalanced game exists it's impossible for any game to be balanced". Is that what you're telling me?

>Ever heard of offclassing? It happens all the time in 6's matches to account for various situations like last holding, uber disadvantage, etc
Of course I've fucking heard of offclassing user, I'm not complaining about pub balance here.
Offclassing is called offclassing for a reason: because it's uncommon. If you enjoy playing Engineer, Pyro, Spy, or Heavy, you will get to actually play the class you enjoy approximately 5% of the time. If that.

Because of this, TF2's competitive community is literally split in two. Highlander exists to appeal to all the people who wanted to offclass fulltime.
If offclasses were viable all the time in 6s, TF2's competitive 6s community would double in size. And we wouldn't have to keep merging divisions for lack of players. And it would be more interesting to watch.

>But that's flat out wrong
despite it historically being correct

>comparing ASSFAGGOTS to class-based FPS games

>"Because one imbalanced game exists it's impossible for any game to be balanced"
because overwatch, another class-based shooter, tried this and failed. I don't see why TF2 should try to emulate that.

>If you enjoy playing Engineer, Pyro, Spy, or Heavy, you will get to actually play the class you enjoy approximately 5% of the time.
You clearly underestimate the amount of time teams spend at disadvantage or holding last. Have you ever even played high or even mid-level 6's? FYI I'm a player with over 7 competitive seasons in both highlander and 6's under my belt so I think I know what I'm talking about when I say that some classes should stay specialists and others stay generalists

>Dota 2, a valve game, manages to balance a 100-character roster so that 75% of them are used in high-level play. If they can do that, can't TF2 balance just 9 characters?

Good thing in TF2 100% of characters are used in high level play. It's literally not possible to have anything less when every class is good at something. Even pyro or spy. Pyro is good at blasting away ubers and spy is good as a surprise play.

But with DOTA 2, there are tons of characters that have overlap but change it up with something slightly different.

TF2's schtick is that all the classes have their own role.

>because they don't like change.
Oh fuck off
Heavy, Engi and Pyro exist to slow things down, if you make them more applicable to more situations then the game becomes duller and more boring as a result of engineer and heavy being run every game to draw out the last point capture like a knife.

>Stalemates are not a bad thing. I don't get why getting rid of them is so important
Because three minute long waiting periods where neither team does anything but poke at each other are not fun to endure or watch.
Short stalemates are just fine, long stalemates are not.
It's not just me complaining. It's pretty much everyone who watches or plays high level competitive TF2. The optimal strategy to win, as Crowns showed, is to sit still, do nothing, and run down the clock, because TF2 is a game where defense is too strong.
>I know several players off the back of my head that main engineer and heavy
I never said almost nobody enjoys Engineer. Just Heavy. And you might know some Heavy mains, but it's a fact that he is by far the least popular class in TF2.
>And I'd also like to know where you're getting the 5% statistic from
logs.tf/
youtube.com/watch?v=xO-8skO6Ir0
youtube.com/watch?v=DfUg6KC1Q1c

Go through any of these and tell me how often Engineer, Spy, Heavy or Pyro individually gets used for more than 5% of the game's duration on the winning team.
If you enjoy playing those classes you are not going to get to do it for very long viably in 6s. This is common knowledge and I don't understand why we're arguing the point.
>And like I said, balancing to make every class equally viable is pointless because it will never happen
It is mathematically, logically possible to make every class equally viable.

Are you saying that if we can't make it 100% perfect we shouldn't try at all?

Hey Sup Forums,
yore
ugleh

>The optimal strategy to win, as Crowns showed, is to sit still, do nothing, and run down the clock, because TF2 is a game where defense is too strong.
And they still lose to froyotech every year

>I never said almost nobody enjoys Engineer. Just Heavy.
>And if there is anyone who actually enjoys playing Heavy or Engineer?
Yes you did. Also, heavy's next in line to get a rework so that's going to change.

Thanks for posting 3 and 4 hour long videos with no timestamps for where exactly you found this "5%" statistic. I'm just going to assume that you just pulled it out of your ass.

>it is mathematically, logically possible
There are a lot of things that are mathematically possible. Does that make it humanly possible? Fucking no, because there is no possible way to foresee every possible situation with every possible class setup and it's outcomes in order to determine how every single character should be balanced in a game with 9 different characters.

>Are you saying that if we can't make it 100% perfect we shouldn't try at all?
Yes, because if it isn't 100% perfect then some characters will always be better than other characters, which completely defeats the purpose of trying in the first palce since getting it 100% perfect is impossible.

>despite it historically being correct
Which you have provided no example of.
>comparing ASSFAGGOTS to class-based FPS games
Okay so for starters Starcraft isn't an ASSFAGGOT, you faggot, and if you're going to discount Dota 2 because it's a MOBA, then I can discount Overwatch as well because it's commonly called a MOBA. If genre difference means that much to you, your example is right out.
>because overwatch, another class-based shooter, tried this and failed
"One example tried and failed therefore no other games can do it". That's literally what you're saying.
>Have you ever even played high or even mid-level 6's?
Frequently watch high level. I even went to Insomnia once.
>FYI I'm a player with over 7 competitive seasons in both highlander and 6's under my belt
Credentials?
>so I think I know what I'm talking about when I say that some classes should stay specialists and others stay generalists
Well you'd be wrong because you have no idea what you're talking about. You haven't provided any good examples (overshit isn't a good example, nu-Blizz is famous for their bad balance).
>Good thing in TF2 100% of characters are used in high level play
The difference you're glossing over is that in Dota, you have to use the character you choose for an entire game.
In TF2, you get to play Engineer, Pyro, Spy or Heavy for a few seconds-- a few minutes tops-- and then you have to swap off it if you don't want to get reamed.
That is obviously not satisfactory because people are forced to play classes they don't enjoy to participate in competitive TF2. Why do I have to explain this to you?

>Just Heavy

Fuck off

You just dont like heavy plain and simple.

Just dont try to shove comp stuff into everybody because you like play it and feel like the king of the world.

I enjoy heavy as much I enjoy Demo, Pyro, Engie and Medic.

There's definitely at least 9 classes in Dota that don't overlap, surely you can agree with that.
>TF2's schtick is that all the classes have their own role.
And that can be preserved AND the classes can be balanced.
>Heavy, Engi and Pyro exist to slow things down
They all have more identity than just "slow things down". If Engineer exists only to slow things down, why does he have the Teleporter? Why did Valve give Heavy and Engie the GRU and Gunslinger respectively?
You can't claim that they're intended by Valve solely to slow down the game, and you can't claim that it's good game design, either. So why would we keep them that way?
> if you make them more applicable to more situations then the game becomes duller and more boring as a result of engineer and heavy being run every game to draw out the last point capture like a knife
I want to rework Heavy and Engineer so that doesn't happen. They will still be unique but they will also take skill and not bring the game to a screeching halt.
Pyro does not "exist to slow things down". He doesn't exist for anything in particular right now.

>which you have provided no example of
Now I just think you aren't even reading my posts.

>then I can discount Overwatch as well because it's commonly called a MOBA. If genre difference means that much to you, your example is right out.
You seriously think that Dota is as similar to TF2 as Overwatch is? Now I'm beginning to think you're actually retarded.

>"One example tried and failed therefore no other games can do it". That's literally what you're saying.
Yes that is LITERALLY what I'm saying. Thanks for pointing that out.
>Frequently watch high level. I even went to Insomnia once.
So you don't play the game. Why are you even arguing this then?
>Credentials?
No. And for the record, just because I don't want to out myself on this forum doesn't make what I said not true.

>Well you'd be wrong because you have no idea what you're talking about. You haven't provided any good examples
Except I have, you just can't read.
Let me point them out
>overwatch
>tier lists in games that try to balance all characters equally
the latter you haven't even responded to once

>The difference you're glossing over is that in Dota, you have to use the character you choose for an entire game.
So why are you even comparing the two games if they're so different? I'm sure you'd agree that classes should be balanced differently if you're allowed to switch class mid game.

>They will still be unique but they will also take skill and not bring the game to a screeching halt.
do you even realize what you are saying
you are trying to turn the heavy and the engineer into something that isnt the heavy and the engineer
are you fucking stupid

>Pyro does not "exist to slow things down". He doesn't exist for anything in particular right now.
Oh so you are fucking stupid, never mind

>And they still lose to froyotech every year
Yeah I forgot that the winner of i58 was froyotech lmao
>Yes you did
No I didn't.
>Also, heavy's next in line to get a rework so that's going to change
Well maybe, we have no idea what they're planning or if they're even considering reworking him. All they've said is new guns, and that's a MAYBE.
>Thanks for posting 3 and 4 hour long videos with no timestamps for where exactly you found this "5%" statistic
Did you actually look at logs.tf or just gloss over it?
This is the most recent game from logs.tf.
logs.tf/1813639
17 minute game. No Pyro, Heavy, Spy or Engineer at all on the winning team. One team (the loser) used Spy for 37 seconds. That's less than 5% of the game's duration.
I'm not going to go through all of them to make a point that should be obvious to anyone who plays TF2 competitively. If you want more, feel free to look at all of them within the last month, and see just how much playtime those classes are getting.
>Fucking no, because there is no possible way to foresee every possible situation with every possible class setup and it's outcomes in order to determine how every single character should be balanced in a game with 9 different characters.
You don't need to worry about "every possible class setup." Quit the hyperbole.
>Yes, because if it isn't 100% perfect then some characters will always be better than other characters, which completely defeats the purpose of trying in the first palce since getting it 100% perfect is impossible
If we only achieve 99.99% success then still people will be able to play the class they enjoy 99.99% of the time without being at a significant disadvantage.

Balance isn't an on/off switch it's a sliding scale. Viability is measured in percentages of players who use things, not on "everyone uses this or does not use this".

>I enjoy heavy
That's nice sweetie. You're in a ridiculously small minority. Talk to literally anybody else from the pub OR comp community and they'll tell you.
>Just dont try to shove comp stuff into everybody because you like play it and feel like the king of the world.
What the fuck even is this sentence? Bait?

Valve is meshing Casual and Competitive balance. It's going to happen whether you like it or not. Either we steer them with good suggestions, or we end up with a resulting balance we don't like. Get on board or get left behind.
>You seriously think that Dota is as similar to TF2 as Overwatch is?
I'm saying that if you discount Dota and Starcraft for not being similar enough to TF2 then I'm free to discount Overwatch for not being similar enough to TF2.

If you claim that the concept of game balance isn't universal, and depends on the mechanics individual games have, then you can't claim Overwatch as an example, because its mechanics are significantly different to TF2.
>Yes that is LITERALLY what I'm saying
So you're LITERALLY retarded.

Nu-Blizzard are famous for their inability to balance games. Why would you take the worst example of balancing and say that nobody else can be better than them????
>So you don't play the game
Of course I fucking play the game, probably more than you do. Nice strawman, nigger. Keep it up and you won't get any more tasty (you)'s.
>No.
Right, we'll ignore your claim of "over 7 competitive seasons" then.

>you are trying to turn the heavy and the engineer into something that isnt the heavy and the engineer
Heavy will still be a minigun wielding tank. Engineer will still be a building construcing support. They just won't be dedicated defense bitches any more who are nigh useless on offense and make the game stalemate.
Why are you so determined to keep a design the same if few people enjoy it and it's actively bad for the pace of the game?
>Oh so you are fucking stupid, never mind
Not an argument, cunt.
Pyro does not have a defined class identity and airblast was a tacked-on afterthought.
Just because the only use he has is to slow down the game right now, does not mean that's why he was created.

Why you sperg this hard in late night tf2 threads? You always do this.

What do you mean by "always"? And why do all your posts look so weird?
I like TF2 so I talk about it, fucking sue me.

Will you two just have sex already?

...

You know damn well you wont change opinions, arguing doest nothing because for nine years people didnt care for high level play in tf2 and in fact they wont give two cents nowdays.

You just add more gasoline into the fire

>Just because the only use he has is to slow down the game right now, does not mean that's why he was created.
Focusing on """intention""" to the total exclusion of what actually happens when good players go at it is the hallmark of theoryshitting.

Pyro's niche is defense. Whether or not he fell into that role by accident or on purpose is irrelevant.

>You know damn well you wont change opinions
My goal isn't to change your opinion user.
>for nine years people didnt care for high level play in tf2 and in fact they wont give two cents nowdays.
Too bad dude. Valve is going to rebalance TF2 for competitive anyway; in fact, they've already started (many of their recent balance changes were with comp in mind). They are taking advice from B4nny.

Now I don't necessarily agree with everything B4nny says, though I agree with some things. So if we want to have a TF2 that's fun for everyone we all have to give input, which Valve is asking for.
Arguing with you and other anons accomplishes getting more people on Sup Forums thinking about TF2 balance, gets rid of any obvious problems with my ideas I haven't seen before I email Valve them, and it's just plain fun to talk about TF2

>Focusing on """intention""" to the total exclusion of what actually happens when good players go at it is the hallmark of theoryshitting
Have you been reading what I'm saying? Because that's exactly what I'm saying.

It doesn't matter what their intention originally was if the design isn't FUN.
Heavy's, Engineer's, and Pyro's designs are not as fun as they could be.

He's the one who's arguing they should be kept that way because of how it's "intended".
I'm not saying original intention really matters, just correcting his wrong statement on what the original intention actually was.

yeah the medic should be a bad choice half the time

fucking idiot

>yeah the medic should be a bad choice half the time
why not exactly?
how does medic being a mandatory choice players are forced to choose if they want to win (even if they don't enjoy medic) make the game more fun?

if there's a team with a healer (who has the only "ult" in the game, an ability so powerful the entire meta is based around pushing with this ability) and a team who doesn't have a healer, the team without the healer will and should lose

If no one on your team enjoys playing Medic you have a bad team

What if I enjoy vaccinator medic

> an ability so powerful the entire meta is based around pushing with this ability
>the team without the healer will and should lose
Why? Why SHOULD it be that way?
You're describing what the game is right now, which we both already know.
You're not telling us how that's FUN.
>you have a bad team
So your players can all be Invite-level Demos, Soldiers, and Scouts, but if they don't enjoy playing a class who runs behind people with an autoaim healing gun and occasionally clicks M2 or crossbows/melees, they're somehow bad at the game?

gunslinger battle engi is fun as fuck

it is not viable for pushing sadly
go up against an even half decent soldier/demo and they will delete your mini before it builds, if you're trying to push

24th.
its the anniversary for tf1

i look forward to this post everytime i click on a tf2 thread

Tommorrow is the night?

> birthday event

heh, we'll get the Pyro Update eventually, right?

>tfw Robin Walker said he wont return to work TF2 ever again

You know this is the end of the tunnel when the creator doesnt give a shit about his own child

I look forward to posting it in every TF2 thread
YIPEEKIYAAHEYAYKYAAAHKAYO

More Gmod/SFM reaction stuff, please

for you user, of course

...

It also helps to name the source of some of these. There's a ton of great videos out there and it's hard to keep track of them all.

also on another note, I've found out the hard way that using minimal viewmodels on weapons makes the original look retard because the soldier's left hand is on the screen, is there any way to fix that?
The scout holds extra bullets for the shorstop in his fucking mouth too, which is pretty damn funny

Sadly I don't know the source of either of those, or this one

Not Gmod/SFM but still good.

>>tfw Robin Walker said he wont return to work TF2 ever again
sauce?

Recently reinstalled TF2, can't even see my respawn times,how do I unfuck the UI?

uninstall yoyr hud

tf2 has the best bants. you can tell there was an Australian on the dev team

>tfw having the most fun i ever had as medic overdose + vaccinator when i first got the weapon
>learn the differences between the medibeams more, vacc overheal rate is fucking awful and i now cannot really justify using it as i can only really keep at most three players alive
>being the fastest uberrate made overdose fun but that also isn't viable because a fucking large health kit across the map is way less situational
>people will ask you to switch anyways like it is the medics duty to not have fun

>both teams turtle up on 2fort
>no timer
>game literally goes for hours and hours

is this why literally 75% of pyro's are spies? I swear everytime I see a pyro I instantly spy check it and most of the time its a spy

the fundamental problem is the offense/defense balance in TF2.
In TF2, Engineer and Heavy are capable of creating extremely powerful defenses, and the only thing that can reliably dislodge them (on an equal skill level) is a Medic with an Uber.
youtube.com/watch?v=Mm1ajobCgxA
here you can see Team Fortress Classic which had an offense/defense balance that favoured offense. CTF was an actual competitively viable mode, and 2fort was actually a good map.

The only way CTF will ever work in TF2 is if Valve weakens defensive sides so that offensive sides aren't forced to Uber to be able to push.

It's because Pyro is on 3 on the disguise kit, and you can reach 3 with either your index or middle finger. The former's usually better if you're running down a corridor, though

>be me, playing TF2 shortly after it goes F2P as a fresh noob
>am a backburning cunt pyro with axtinguisher and flare gun
>playing on blu team whos a mix of everything and are pairing up to be more effective as red are mostly heavies, soldiers and demomen with medics and a few engis
>meet a fellow F2P who is spy on the team and we decide to team up
>spend the entire game baiting the fuck out of the enemy with each other, jumping from the front and getting people from behind while the other stays on the lookout for more meat
>we're one of the highest scores of the team and were praised like fuck since we induced the most rage out of the enemy hearing them shout over all talk about us and thus had them completely disorganized
>we played for years after then often using the same set up until his PC broke last december and he hasnt gone onto steam since
god that shit felt amazing but it feels horrible remembering that i'll never be able to play with him again

>is this why literally 75% of pyro's are spies?
nah it's because it's one of the few disguises that can be ostensibly running around looking at people in their base, with minimal movement speed loss.

Scout disguise gives you away because you're running too slow.
Soldier disguise loses speed.
Demo disguise loses speed.
Heavy disguise loses speed.
Engie disguise makes enemies wonder why you aren't at your buildings.
Medic disguise makes enemies wonder why you aren't running behind someone with a healing gun.
Sniper disguise makes enemies wonder why you aren't standing at the battlements looking forward with your gun at your eyes.
Spy disguise makes enemies wonder why you're running around in your base, rather than the enemy base.

Pyro disguise is perfect because he's a pretty useless class who has no real purpose, so he can be anywhere around the battlefield, and one of his few jobs is to hunt Spies. So he's going to be where Spies are.

ah that makes sense. doesn't help spy players though when it's pretty much become the norm to spycheck pyros automatically

yeah it's an interesting phenomenon. It makes some less-used disguises used because nobody would expect them (I have gotten backstabs with a crouchwalking Heavy friendly disguised before), but when people wise up to that, you have to switch disguises again.

The most used Spy disguise at the top level of 6v6 play is Scout, because he has the most reason to be in random locations, is the most likely class to be present, has no loss of speed for Spy, and Scout's model doesn't match Spy's hitbox (so Snipers can't headshot him easily).

Is there any reason to ever disguise as somebody on your own team?
It seems like a good strategy to combine with the dead ringer, because everybody double checks a dead spy, but will assume they managed to kill a scout or something.

Scare tactics and trickery. Both of which are hard to pull off.

I disguised as a friendly heavy once and had a medic uber me to bum rush a sentry nest. The engie ran off thinking there was no hope. So I basically sapped his sentry no problem.

This one is extremely situational but once on a "friendly" server some dude had it out for me. So I disguise as a teammate who he was friendly to and used voice commands a lot just to seal the deal. Then back stabbed him after lulling him into a false sence of security.

The rage quit was priceless.

Yes, as you identified, it works with the Dead Ringer. However, there are two key problems:
>Enemies are going to get suspicious that an enemy is running towards them without attacking.
>You're using the Dead Ringer, which is already an inferior option to the Invisibility Watches, and is about to get even worse.

There are very niche occasions where you would disguise as an ally. One of the reasons to disguise as an ally is to fool enemies into thinking you're running a class which you actually aren't, causing them to change their strategy. Maybe you want to fool them into thinking you don't have a Spy.

For example: at i58 last year, Stark disguised as an allied Scout and peeked around a corner showing them his face, thus making it look to the enemy team like he was just running Scout. He then undisguised, climbed all the way up Badlands spire invisibly, and backstabbed the Medic.

I once saw someone say they disguised as a friendly heavy on their team. Got an engie guarding the into to wrangle his sentry so they can party. Then murdered him and his toys and taking the intel.

I disguise as my team when I traverse territory "owned" by us and during setup. This way, if enemy somehow catches glimpse of me, they will be at least a bit less paranoid about spy presence.
Although a low move, you can disguise as friendlies and hope enemy won't attack/finish you off.
Finally, although this happens rather rarely, you can scare someone away by pretending to be attack class, especially if they are on low health. Probably works best against pyros, since if you disguise as soldier, you do have excuse for not shooting (airblast mind games).
No, now finally for real, I think that Enforcer's first shot mechanic also works with friendly disguise, but I don't use it, so it's just an assumption.

One of spy's problems is excessive ammo in TF2. I mean, what was last time you ran out of rockets, or shotgun shells? Only heavy have a glimpse of ammo-control (and usually if he's out of ammo it means he was shooting nothing and killed noone to feed on their weapon remains), and a Pyro if he's relying alot on airblast or goes for prolonged spy-check sessions. All other classes almost never feel lack of ammo if they don't just spam shit 24/7.
So, back to spy - when you have so much ammo, wasting some to check that one suspicious guy is of almost no consequence. And wasting in general. Either enemy or friend who doesn't shoot around is automatically suspicious because of that, simply because this behavior is abnormal.

An overly offensive game would make all defence classes totally useless though. So instead of solving a problem, you create another one.

>Pyro disguise is perfect because he's a pretty useless class who has no real purpose
Die

post thoughts

Do people really miss community servers?
I mean, I always saw them as very bad servers. People had to pay to reserve slots, top tier community personalities have full access to litteral cheats like flying and infinite health, admins were often elitist pricks that would ban you for no reason.
Granted, very few community servers were good. The rest were clusterfucks of attention whores.

makes sense
a frag is a frag

>be sniper
>stay near your own spawn all game
>never do the map objective
>can't even be bothered to headshot people
what is the point of this class again?

probably after i61

Fags who complain about bodyshots are the worst. A kill is a kill.

The existence of "defensive classes" IS the problem. Every class should be both offensive and defensive while remaining unique.

I take very seriously the idea of not letting know the enemy team that there's a Spy as long as possible.
When I play Spy on defense, before the match starts, I always disguise as a teammate. So if the enemy sees me from their spawn doors, they don't know if I'm a Spy or not.
When I am in the attacking team, I tend to hide myself in the spawn.
Of course, all of this becomes useless as soon as you kill someone. But it still gives you a slight advantage at the beginning of the match.

This is why whenever I see a Spy of my team staying in front of spawn doors without disguise, I die a little inside.
Why would you let the enemy know there is a Spy?

Yes, people really miss community servers. I feel like this is bait, but in world of today, it may be real opinion just as well.
Shit you described took place on minority of servers, at least in my region. We had plenty of good servers, vanilla, slight mods like fast teleport (before lvl 3 tp became an actual thing), good portion of 24/7 grindfests, etc.
I mean, even what you described is better than shit Valve has churned out in form of Casual (and before that, valve servers). At very least there were actual admins who would kick cheaters or listen to requests. There was good map voting, not "random three maps out of my butt". Shitty but managed server is better than the one left on its own/

>Do people really miss community servers?
No.
Because they aren't gone.

Community servers are still abundant.
you can go from playing a VSH round to a 12v12 on a map that was released 10 minutes ago and in full dev textures.

>engie is underpowered on offense
you wish

>pop a teleporter near the last point
>red loses under the constant wave of enemies while having 40 seconds respawn time