Dawn of Justice vs Civil War

I watched both movies yesterday, back to back, in order to conclude which one I liked more than the other.

The reason I decided to do this:
>they're both versus-movies about two well-established figures going up against each other
>they're both from two rivaling companies who essentially took the exact same premise at the exact same time and decided to roll with it
>I have no preference one way or the other

Here are the categories I judge them in and who won:

>least retarded plot line
In DoJ it was about dealing two different types of justice and who got to deal it and how. In CW the movie was about the limitations of vigilantes and who should be holding their leash, if anyone.

I feel this point goes to DoJ if only because the debate around vigilantism is a well capeshit goes back to for almost every movie in some form or the other.

>least shit characters (personalities)
On CW's side, Tony always shines but he was given less to say and do in this movie than the others, logically enough because it WAS a Captain America movie. Rogers himself is a very "go with your gut" kinda' guy and it shows for the better in this movie. DoJ introduced Batfleck and fleshed him out a little here and there. A few bonus points for portraying him as an older bat, but a few minus points for focusing on a past everyone and their mother already knows about.

CW wins this one if only because Superman is such a fucking bore, and I actually liked their portrayal of Peter Parker.

>best action scenes
CW wins hands down. DoJ was all dark, blurry and shadowy. Which may make sense from a directors perspective but it makes a lot of the one-on-one combat scenes almost unwatchable. The actual fight between Batman and Superman was short and ended laughably.

CW was well filmed, well choreographed and never felt unfair to either part. It also ended a lot better, even if it didn't make an awful lot of sense. CW's group-fight scene was more fun than anything DoJ managed in its entire runtime. +1 CW

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=BNvUrMA5ClM
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

Part 2 of my blog.

>best kinography
CW was a very standard action capeshit popcorn movie, while DoJ was a lot more dark, brooding and """artistic""" in it's shots.

CW had very little interesting to show us except the battles. The battles were filmed marvelously in CW, but DoJ did a much better job with establishing shots and conveying the right emotion for the scenes. I feel DoJ comes out ahead on this one.

>fun factor
I had more fun watching CW, but not for the reason they seem to think I enjoyed it. I don't live or die on Captain America's actions, but the movie was clever in showing me big group scenes and two heroes we know well fight each other.

I also really liked how much of the cast from the other movies they managed to get into this one in-role.

CW was building up to this super big fight between the Man of Steel and the Bat that never came. Then suddenly Doomsday and Wonder Woman for literally why.

CW is the better movie.

>CW was building up to this super big fight between the Man of Steel and the Bat that never came
>*DoJ

That wasn't CW. My bad.

...

I like how thanks to the Torrent realese of Civil War we are talking about the movie again.

The best part? it will last one week, but we will still have BvS threads until Justice League.

Snydr Capekino are Cultclassics regardless of your opinions on the movies.

>blog kek

Except super hero movies are not about your brooding grimdark shit. They're about having fun and watching cool shit happen that normal humans can't do. Marvel understands this, DC doesn't.

>CW was well filmed, well choreographed and never felt unfair to either part
>The battles were filmed marvelously in CW

cmon now...

>well choreographed and never felt unfair to either part

It didn't. In the last battle between Tony and the Cap it really did feel like it could go either way, because Cap managed to get Ironman in an enclosed space where his mobility counted for nothing.

That and Rogers is much stronger and better in a melee fight than Stark.

In DoJ you only felt that Batman even stood a fraction of a chance was because he had a very finite amount of that stupid gass.

>It didn't. In the last battle between Tony and the Cap it really did feel like it could go either way
>That and Rogers is much stronger and better in a melee fight than Stark.

the stupid part is IM is much stronger than Cap and would literally wipe floor with him

Except he's not though. The Ironman suit is not one built for close-range combat.

Sure he packs more of a punch than your average Joe, but Captain American is essentially a melee-only guy.

Once he took away Tony's range advantage he essentially had the upper hand and that was most likely why the fight ended the way it did.

Tony packs firepower, Cap packs muscle.


And it's all better than DoJ's plot-gass.

I found CW is so boring. The only enjoyable parts were the ones with Spiderman and Ant-man.

Still Batfleck's fight choreography was way better than CW's.

Dark, blurry and poorly cut. The only time Batfleck went from crap to tolerable was the fight against the thugs to save Martha.

Meanwhile CW was shot in bright open spaces with little cutting (compared to most capeshit).

Here's something to consider: CW has about a dozen superhero characters. Granted, 2 of them (Ant Man and Spiderman) are shoehorned cameo appearances purely for the toy $$$, yet the film still has a tight narrative, most of the characters have arcs, all of them get something cool to do. Cap, Bucky, Tony, Black Panther are fully fleshed out and get proper story arcs despite competing for screen time with Zemo, Crossbones, etc. When they do appear, Ant and Spider both steal the show with their cool powers.

Fucking FALCON gets more lines of dialogue in Civil War than Superman does in a film called "Batman vs Superman". Just think about that for a moment. And were any of Superman's lines memorable, apart from " the bat is dead. Bury it" and "MARTHA!" (for the wrong reasons)?

And Wonder Woman, despite only having to share screen time with two other heroes, speaks only to Bruce Wayne during the entire 2.5 hour movie and has no impact on the story whatsoever. She could be edited right out and no-one would notice. What does she do? Inflict a meaningless wound on Doomsday?

If nothing else, Civil War is a work of extremely efficient storytelling. BvS is horribly inefficient at setting up mood, characterisation and storylines in an economical and effective way. Bloated and incoherent, I believe the critics said.

Same formula as always. I'm probably one of the few that tends to get sick of it. But I understand why others would like it.

Does anyone care about Superman? I swear those scenes were the most boring part of BVS by quite a bit. BVS's character development was fun when it was centered around an older, tired bat. Not around DC-Jesus. Superman is such a fucking bore.

>CW was well filmed, well choreographed
You are memeing right?

>IM is much stronger than Cap
Not him, but better armed and armored? yes, stronger? no, show me a feat of strength from IM that Cap didn't match. Moviewise, of course

>Except super hero movies are not about your brooding grimdark shit.
You are literally defending Generic shit.
You are asking for generic shit.

I kinda' liked how they managed to fit in everything and introduce us to Peter Parker in CW.

That being said, I am getting awfully tired of Spider Man being played by different actors all the time.

I hope this new guy sticks as he actually comes across like a total nerd, like Spider Man actually was.

Also, is Ant Man any good? The movie, I mean? I never got around to watching it and was kinda' in the dark about his powers in CW.

Of course it was. Just look at the screencap you posted. There's a robot on each side of the shot. Don't you understand anything about composition?

Essentially this.

I'd rather have generic and fun than trying to turn the goofiest source material in the world into fucking Shakespear.

I fought thor

What's the problem here? The show establishes one side of the conflict well, with the most overpowered in the bunch in the middle.

Can someone explain to me what the fuck Vision's powers are? He just seems like Marvel's Superman.

In ranged combat. And lost.

Then go to Sup Forums.

I want movies with subtance that actually look like movies, you clearly want a simple kiddie movie, a live action cartoon show that doesnt justify it's existence. Go to Sup Forums they want shit flicks, happy meals with no artistic value.

Thor is waaaaay weaker than in the comics, much weaker than you might think, see both Thor and Cap against Ultron, sure Thor is stronger, but not that stronger.

Cmon guys, IM fought Thor in melee and kicked him through a fucking tree...

tfw spiderman's feet aren't touching the ground

Can you please spam this in all the BvS threads? I want the fucking "IT'S KINO, YOU JUST DON'T GET IT" meme to die already.

Captain American literally punches through concrete with his hands.

Did Marvel fire their stunt coordinator before Civil War? Action scenes in Civil War was weird to watch, I can't quite explain, it just felt wrong. Like everyone is weightless or something.

Ant Man is in my top 5. Really fun movie. Rudd is just too likeable and the way they handled the fight scenes are great

Fuck right off. If you want substance you are literally in the wrong genre. You can't have dramatic artsy kino when your protagonist is in a red an blue spandex with the first letter of his named glued to his chest.

DC keeps proving time and time again why this will literally never work. See .

youtube.com/watch?v=BNvUrMA5ClM

>ranged

>increased his power 400% due Thors lightning
That's the only reason he looks stronger, because he was powered by a God

It was the complete opposite for me. Russo brothers actually gave weight to the punches unlike the Whedon's

You want a movie with style... and substance... but the movie you're defending is Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice.

Why don't you try watching and defending movies that actually have both? Instead of wasting your time with this shit?

>ranged
>as in over long range, in wide open spaces

Thor is another example of a melee-focused hero.

>Cap literally BTFO both of them
Kek

I agree with this guy. I don't know how they did it, but I'd much rather have what CW did for future capeshit movies.

Winter Soldier had good action, this is why I'm wondering. Maybe I'm wrong.

I really like the Winter Soldier as a character in the movies.

It's so rare to see a villain that not only survives his encounter with the heroe(s), but then goes back to trying to live a normal life. Hell Bucky actually tried to be a good person before he was dragged back into shit.

There was a distinct lack of Hydra in CW. I don't know if I liked this or not.

Hydra is essentially gone, but it always felt like a pretty cool organization.

if you go back and watch the fights you can notice they mute the music which makes the punches and effects seem louder plus they don't use slow motion

CW pisses me off because the entire premise is stupid.

>Tony fucks up by creating Ultron
>Tony insists that everyone pay for HIS mistake
>Tony insists that the government makes everyone accountable, not just him

Steve was in the right because it's not right to blame every Avenger for Tony's fuck ups.

If this were the real world, Tony would be a Muslim extremist and Steve would be a Muslim moderate, claiming that not all muslims are terrorists. Yet the film constantly tries to point you in Tony's direction.

Shit film.

>Hydra
>Symbol looks like an octopus

They handed it over to Agents of SHIELD, presumable they are no longer interested in keeping it in its movies.

They were pretty fun guys there. With some entertaining characters.

>There was a distinct lack of Hydra in CW. I don't know if I liked this or not.

Captain America is Hydra.

>CW's group-fight scene was more fun
BvS wasn't trying to be fun. It was trying to be a thriller with some action scenes.

For the most part, Marvel are action films with some drama, and DC films are drama with some action scenes. They're different kind of films my dude.

Fucking hell you're right. Jesus what a clever little trick.

Nazi Science sneers at petty things like taxonomy.

It should be said that I really liked CW so maybe I'm biased, but I agree with you to some extent.

I had a very hard time sympathizing with Tony's point.

Not because of how fucked this entire Ultron shit is, but the entire reason they want the Avengers on some leash is because of all the collateral damage they do. Hell the entire event is triggered by Wanda accidentally killing 11 people when that guy in the start of the movie blows up.

This is my question though, how fucked would they be if Cap and Wanda and the other filler-Avengers weren't there? If they weren't there the bad guys would have gotten away with a biological weapon for Christ sake.

Is it really not better that the Avengers save the day and kill 11 people, than that a terrorist destroys a city with a bio-weapon? Is that really not a price the world is willing to fucking pay?

It's such a fucking flawed premise because, yes, the Avengers cause civilian casualties but those civilian casualties would ALWAYS have been higher if they weren't there.

>I had a very hard time sympathizing with Tony's point.

The story was literally written with Tony's side being cartoonish villains.

>#MakeHydraGreatAgain

>BvS wasn't trying to be fun. It was trying to be a thriller with some action scenes.

Maybe, but it wasn't thrilling, and it wasn't dramatic. And when that's gone, the only thing you can fall back on is how fun it was, and it failed there too.

>"Cut one head, two more will grow"
>Cut octopus' head
>Not even one grows

The problem is that conflict is unrealistic. Or more precisely the conflict is realistic, but the world itself isn't.
And I'm not saying it like "those feats are physically implausible" kind of unrealistic.
The characters are idealized, because they need to be. Because anything less than flawless with no accountability is a villainous force.

Ethic of superheroics can not be questioned because they can't withstand the questioning. And their doubters can't win because there won't be any superheroes to amuse us. So conflict falls apart, unable to reconcile fantasy of benevolent vigilantes who always (eventually) do the right thing because they are designated good guys and reality of such people not existing.

This was kinda' why I fell out of the movie. It's a good flick, but they keep making a huge deal over the civilian casualties without ever bringing up how much worse "The New York" incident would have been without them there.

Yeah thousands probably died in New York when what's-his-name came down with his army, but what was the alternative? If the Avengers hadn't come popping it, the entire planet would probably have been enslaved or destroyed.

He kinda is, he can also phase through objects. He's not as powerful as Superman but still he's one of the powerhouses.
In the comic books by the way the more powerful is Scarlet Witch.

look at it this way, how many time people complains about soldiers stopping terrorists and shit in foreign countries? they're doing good stuff and sometimes casualties happen, yet still people complain.

In this case people around the world complained more because Avengers operate on a bigger scale than the army.

There's no checks and balances. Today they accidentally blew up the embassy, tomorrow cap will write his noisy neighbour as collateral damage.

Truth is, a superhero-infested nation that failed to intergrate them into its law enforcement and military ranks is a failed state. Not necessary bad, if you are some kind of libertarian, but a failed state. Where whim of a guy who was bitten by a radioactive spider is the only law.

Yeah form what I can gather he can turn etheral, fly, lift Thor's hammer and shoot lasers from his forehead.

He seems a lot stronger than any of the other Avengers by quite a bit.

Pretty much this. Now also imagine that it's some mercenary group that has no ties to any government and literally answers to no one.

Tony kept bringing up accountability and it makes more sense (and makes his side more sympathetic) that he was looking to the future and seeing how much the Avengers and the scope of their operations was expanding.

Even with that, the argument would still be pretty lopsided in Cap's favor.

True, but aren't they essentially integrating the Avengers on good graces. Or, mercy, so to speak?

If a spell of evil turned every Avenger evil (Avengers 5, I'm calling it), wouldn't that essentially be the end of the world? I mean, there's very little the army can do to stop them besides maybe nuking entire countries.

I don't know, I just feel like the people of Earth aren't really in a position to be "demanding" anything of the Avengers.

to add to what everyone's saying it's basically the age old question of 'who watches the watchers'
the sokovia accords weren't perfect sure - even Tony says this if you listen - but someone needs to be accountable for their actions otherwise heroes would just do whatever the fuck they want
also Tony told Cap that it was just the first draft and they can rewrite it how they want

True, but Cap is all about the "doing good no matter the costs" kinda' thing, so anything less than muh freedoms would never fly with him.

That's true. But that's also kinda uncomfortable realization. It's completely dystopian. And people don't want mainstream capes turn into Dystopia.

But if there's ideological seeds of integration are sowed, there's a chance. If "Avengers" identity is broken, and them swearing to police and army they won't all rebel at once.
The same way rank-and-file soldiers and cops (Who have all the guns) won't just take a country for themselves.

That's only Cap though. What about all the other heroes and future ones thatll eventually come?

They do complain about that, but I feel this is a little different.

If civies die to kill a terrorist it was because the chances were there that the terrorist could have killed a lot more people. The key word here is "could".

If the invasion that was the New York Incident had gone on without the Avengers there wouldn't be any "could". It WOULD have ended in complete destruction of our species.

Rogers is a very central figure in the Avengers and his voice counts for quite a lot I think. I'd even go as far as to argue that he's the "human" face of the Avengers.

If he ever left the Avengers over something like this he'd probably convince quite a few of them to take the road down with him thus essentially splitting the group into "the law-abiding Avengers" and "the do-whatever-you-feel-is-good Avengers".

Are you insane? The physics are totally fucked up, the escene where cp kicks the car the car moves and stop moving when it hits someone?

I only read a few of your points but you're not wrong about your conclusion.

that's exactly what happened in the movie user congrats you just got it!

if I remember correct the car was sideways and probably has the parking brake on so of course it would stop suddenly. it would not slowly stop because the tires are locked

>a ~100kg person kicks a ~1000kg car
>the car moves and the person stays in the same place

No, it wasn't. That was what ALMOST happened in the movie. There was never any formal split, and even when they locked some of them up they never stopped being part of the Avengers.

>every movie in one genre must have the same tone otherwise it's shit
capeshit fans are fucking retarded

>Is it really not better that the Avengers save the day and kill 11 people, than that a terrorist destroys a city with a bio-weapon?


It's simple, if my people don't want the avengers in my country they should STAY OUT.

Every country has the right to decide their own destiny. Steve is a fascist and represents interventionism. The only freedom he cares about it's his, and the only values he respect are the ones he believes most by ENFORCED on others.

The sokovia threaty shit makes sense, the countries that want to give free movement and action to the avengers could, the ones that want the avengers to act as the Red cross (can enter invited when needed) could choose to do that to, and the ones that don't want this team inside their boarders:

>A monster and scientist that created the robot that tried to destroy the world
>A robot created by the robot that tried to destroy the world
>A murrikan soldier
>A Russian Spy that killed several political figures after fucking them
>An American spy that killed several political figures using a bow
>The brother of the Alien that tried to conquer the world
>tArms dealer that created the robot that tried to destroy the world
>The former sidekick of the robot that tried to destroy the world
>The Uneducated American soldier from WW2
>Black american soldier with wings
>Thief that can shrink
>American black guy in an armor from the arms dealer

Steve is a jackass in the movie, everything he does aside from defending Bucky is plain wrong. Steveis a cunt.

By what laws of motion would cap be moving? Remember also cap is 'peak human' so it's more like a 100kg person kicking a 100-200kg car.

Conservation of momentum doesn't work like this.
Although the other guy is wrong too. You can kick heavy objects just fine, if you have good footing.

of course they wouldn't announce there was a formal split otherwise the world will know Zemo won and they'd be even more of a target but there are obviously two groups of Avengers in the end

It was totally retarded, sure let's say he can kick the car and move it, but why would the car have the momentum to trow one person meters away and just stop moving. The acceleration doesnt make sense.

you're baiting, right?

He is superhuman in the movies, it's the strongest version of the haracter ever.

Doesn't work like what?

no it wasn't. it's like you trying to move a very heavy object, let's say a couch. you apply a force on it and it would only move for a couple of feet before coming to an instant stop.
now apply this to cap who is superhuman. if he kicks it with enough force he can knock out a person with it and it would come to a complete stop just the same. the car doesn't roll because it was kicked sideways plus the rubber grip of the tires plus the parking brake

He would have to be screwed to the ground for it to work like that with a mass difference that huge

No. Cap kicks the car. The car moves. Cap stops himself from moving either forward or backward because he is a fucking superhero and what he has just accomplished is probably equivalent to us kicking a punchbag. We do not go flying backward or forward (or up in air or wherever it is you think we are going) when we kick a punchbag.

>the car doesn't roll because the movie is retarded

>it makes a lot of the one-on-one combat scenes almost unwatchable
Really? The action scenes are perfectly visible on a TV. Even in this crappy webm you can follow it just fine. I think the choreography for Batman's fights is better than anything in CW, but then again the fight with Doomsday is typical CGI trash, so I could go either way for the movie as a whole.

Yes, but if the punchbag hits something while it's movie that isnt even 5% of it's weight, that something won't stop the bag.

not an argument. also didn't refute any of what I said. also you didn't do any critical thinking

>And were any of Superman's lines memorable, apart from " the bat is dead. Bury it" and "MARTHA!" (for the wrong reasons)?
I liked "There never was a Superman"

a punchbag isn't over 10 times heavier than you, that's the problem

>is typical CGI trash
IIt actually it isnt, at all, it was a failed attempt to make it look "oniric", it work great and stylished in slow paced escenes, but the execution was really bad, it doesnt mix well with frenetic action and ended up looking like a blury mess.


Pic related, it's what Snyder was going for.

Ok. Not what I'm talking about though, as far as I know we are talking about how cap moves after he kicks a car.

Dude we are not talking about Captain america, but the guy that got hit by the car and flies away.

And (you) are not a superhero. It wasn't a documentary you were watching pal.

Are you serious right here? Half-a-dozen black blobs do indistinguishable things on screen to choppy cutting and you call THIS a good action scene?

You could honestly have told me this was interpretive dance and I would have had to question it only vaguely.