Protestants, by their own implicit admission, worship an unjust God

Protestants, by their own implicit admission, worship an unjust God.

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Can you give me an example of a just god?

a concrete example or a theoretical one?
according to your definition of justice or some other standard?

Since I can't expect you to know what my definition of "just" is, I would rather an example of your choosing.

>worshiping any sort of god
kek

...

Some of them believe he is an unjust God, yes. And those may worship him still, yes.

This doesn't have anything to do with God being "just" or not.

God would be just

None of them say just.
But God is benevolent.
But again Just is not benevolent.

Says who?

I'd argue that Just is, though.

The God of some Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians or of Judaism. The Sikh conception of God probably too.

Define just.

A just god would have omniscience, and omnipotence.
He has the power to judge and the knowledge to be just

A just god would consider the situation and judge accordingly. As do humans,since we are apparently in his image.

I'm happy with this
Perhaps he would.
You say yourself "He has the power to judge and the knowledge to be just"
He has the power and knowledge to be, yes, but is he?

Judge according to who, though?

Knowledge of a correct act doesn't mean anything, because what if the correct act is to kill all the jews?

The jews certainly won't think it's just.

A just god would be able to completely control and predict the situation. Again, please define just.

Is it morally right to allow harm that can be prevented?

Justice consists of giving people what they deserve.
God created and imperfect world because it is man's duty to perfect it.
That's my take anyway.
-OP

That's up to you. xD this is the thing. Society decides what is morally right and fair. and thus, what is just.
Personally, I think allowing harm to happen that can be prevented is morally fine. Not good or bad just alright-ish

Sup Forums's Lord and Saviour.

If anything God is arbitrary.
What he says Goes. His word is law, what he says IS what is just and morally right.
But that is only believed by believers, to everyone else, they would look and go, that's fascist dictatorship, completely unjust.

How about this: is it morally right to cause harm?

Personally I think sometimes it's okay.

Greater good.

See comment about jews. Wasn't being a troll. What if extermination of X race would serve as a positive for the world as a whole.

Is that just?

Is it okay to cause harm to those who have done no wrong themselves?

For your race? Sure.
For there race, probably not.

>What if extermination of X race would serve as a positive for the world as a whole.
Scenario is self-contradictory. Extermination of a race cannot be a positive for the world as a whole.

Mosquitos.

Nah, probably not.

Exterminating the entire population of mosquitos would not be a positive for the world.

Perhaps the end justifys the means though, perhaps Humanity hits a new golden age etc. etc.

It doesn't though, because now you live in a world where a race can be exterminated if it is determined to be 'beneficial.'

>Extermination of a race cannot be a positive for the world as a whole.
You can't conceive of any scenario where it could be?

No.

Hundreds of millions of dead people killed by mosquito-borne illnesses throughout the centuries would disagree if they could.

I think we live in that world right now.
There are people genocide other people right now because they believe it will be beneficial.
Maybe it will be, maybe it won't be.
But happening it is.

genociding

I don't think mosquitos serve any real purpose for anybody or anything. There are things that eat them, but they're not a staple IIRC.

Mosquitos play a vital role in the ecosystem. Exterminate them and you'll end up causing more harm than you've reduced.

This was meant to go here xD fuck i'm sleep deprived

So we shouldn't put doctors in prison I guess?

>There are people genocide other people right now because they believe it will be beneficial.
Sure, but they're wrong. People do things that are wrong, but that doesn't make those things right.

It'll just cause more harm than it'll solve.

Why would we be putting doctors in prison?

To you, they are wrong.
But they believe those things to be right.
So to them, it is justified.

> People do things that are wrong, but that doesn't make those things right.
This I agree with xD

>But they believe those things to be right.
Right, and I think they're wrong to believe that.

God is an idea thought up by some lunatics. /thread/

They banded together to genocide the Mosquitoes and the Jews I think. That's pretty much the narrative of the thread so far.

Wrong enough to want to genocide them to prevent their genocide ;)

We're talking more along the lines of cosmic just. Like, actual factual truth, like numbers being numbers on their own in eternity, rather than being a concept to be argued on by mortals.

If God said to you "I have knowledge that you do not, and eliminating this race of guinea pigs is just", would you have grounds to argue?

m'fedora.

kek. Stopping individuals from carrying out genocide is not equivalent to carrying out genocide.

>We're talking more along the lines of cosmic just. Like, actual factual truth
Can't exist. Morality is inherently subjective.
>would you have grounds to argue?
You would treat God the same as you would treat anyone. Tell it to explain its reasoning. If it doesn't, you have no reason to accept it.

>Morality is inherently subjective.
Morality is based on the combined knowledge gathered to decide on what is best for your community.

If God is all knowing, then that would make his morality the morality that trumps all others, because he has the most information, and assuming that he's also benevolent, he would use that information positively, 100% of the time.

Oh good question and good point in general.
hmm.
Yeah I'd argue but God would probably show me a vision or some shit of the guinea pigs destroying the world and then I might actually be like: 'Well shit'
I'd then be thrown in a mental asylum for killing guinea pigs.

Ah, I meant would it be morally right to genocide a bad people (like a people commiting a genocide) was it right to kill the nazis essentially.

God is just, that's why he plays by the rules and let the devil ruin things for alot of us. God's not flipping the table not sacrificing the pawns, he's playing the game out and moving the most important pieces when the times right so we can all be saved.

But God is all powerful, he could just unplug the devil's controller and not let him play.

There's no reason to play vs.

>kek. Stopping individuals from carrying out genocide is not equivalent to carrying out genocide.
Taking away freewill controlling people for any reason is far more unjust than allowing us our fate due to sin. Free will allows us to be free show god who we truly are, we don't want evil commies slipping their way into heaven do we?

>Plays by the rules
The rules he made
>God's not flipping the table not sacrificing the pawns
He does this repeatedly

Why is the game being played at all.

>Morality is based on the combined knowledge gathered to decide on what is best for your community.
That's a subjective standard.
>then that would make his morality the morality that trumps all others
Not if you don't agree with its standard.
>assuming that he's also benevolent
How are we determining that God is benevolent? Our standards or God's?

As Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

God cannot exist in this 'Verse. Science and being kind delivers results.

So it goes.

>How are we determining that God is benevolent? Our standards or God's?
That's the question.

>But God is all powerful, he could just unplug the devil's controller and not let him play.

>There's no reason to play vs.
There are rules even God has to follow, imagine how flawed good would be viewed as if even he was as intellectually dishonest as we and the devil are at times, another angel would just try to revolt if that happened there would be a new fallen.

>There are rules even God has to follow
Then he's not omnipotent.

>imagine how flawed good would be viewed as if even he was as intellectually dishonest as we and the devil are at times
I don't recall ever reading or seeing or hearing anyone say that God doesn't lie or hasn't lied.

There are no angels. Period.

>>Plays by the rules
>The rules he made
>>God's not flipping the table not sacrificing the pawns
>He does this repeatedly

>Why is the game being played at all.
I'd imagine it's like in chemistry you can't add amonia and aluminum together, I didn't make the rule that's just how it is.

>>There are rules even God has to follow
>Then he's not omnipotent.

>>imagine how flawed good would be viewed as if even he was as intellectually dishonest as we and the devil are at times
>I don't recall ever reading or seeing or hearing anyone say that God doesn't lie or hasn't lied.
The fact there are rules he follows has nothing to do with his omnipotents

God's word.
We as Christians are expected to believe he is.

>
>There are no angels. Period.
That's not what the Bible says

Then there is no Devil xD WE'RE SAVED!!!

No honey, that's not just how it is. Science has determined quite well how chemistry works.

Just gecause YOu don't understand does not mean squat.

Either answer you give is problematic for the idea that morality is not subjective.

Why?

Exactly he made the rule. If I was God I could add amonia and aluminum together.
I am God.
The great I AM!

>1. Can God prevent evil?
Yes.

>2. Does God know about all the evil?
Yes.

>3. Does God want to prevent evil?
That depends on the evil. See answer to 4.

>4. Then why is there evil?
Evil is to good what darkness is to light; it is the absence of somethimg that is not there. (This defeats the 'God is not good/loving/all knowing' objection, which assumes that evil is an absolute force.) People are able to do 'not good' things because God decided that a universe where humans have free will is better than one where they're mindless robots who could never choose to love and obey Him.

Still, why doesn't God prevent at least some bad things from happening, you might ask. Well how could you prove that He hasn't? Even natural evils such as earthquakes, tornadoes, and tsunamis, devastating though they are, might achieve some greater good via the butterfly effect that you'll never know about. He doesn't directly cause these things, but you could never know where or when he stops them from taking place.

>If God is all knowing, he would know what we would do if we were tested, therefore no need to test us
Let's assume God regularly tests people. Would it be just for him condemn people simply on the basis of what they *would* do when tested/tempted? No? Then it's a moot issue.


>4b. Why doesn't God destroy Satan?
The Book of Revelations says he will. But even if he destroyed him now, people would still do bad things. Satan doesn't "make" anyone do anything unless they let him.

>5. Could God have created a universe without these?
How do you create a universe without evil without running headfirst into the problem of free will? Even if we were to agree that 'Evil' is a concrete thing and not the lack of something, how do you know that a universe where evil exists isn't the greatest possible universe?

The problem with the Epicurean Paraodox is that it appeals to a vague definition of Evil as some force that can be present or not present.

>>Morality is inherently subjective.
>Morality is based on the combined knowledge gathered to decide on what is best for your community.

>If God is all knowing, then that would make his morality the morality that trumps all others, because he has the most information, and assuming that he's also benevolent, he would use that information positively, 100% of the time.
Alot of what we can't do now like fucking as much as we want and being gluttonous is because of the devil we we're basically advanced ignorant animals in the garden of Eden but we were happy now we have shame and sin that causes death for things we used to enjoy. The garden had only one rules think about that.

Because God said so honey, now hurry up and get your coat we're going to be late for mass.

>Exactly he made the rule. If I was God I could add amonia and aluminum together.
>I am God.
>The great I AM!
I am what I am is in no ways saying he made all the rules, it's like how a video game works you might have made it but there are things you can't do or else you'll break the game.

Many things in the Bible are nonsense. Is it a useful book? At times. But so is Wikipedia.

Stop dancing. We understand astrophysics.

>Alot of what we can't do now like fucking as much as we want and being gluttonous is because of the devil

Exactly why does God allow the devil to exist, if God is father of all creation then he created the devil too.

It goes back to the knowledge thing.

If God is all knowing, then he has the most ability out of any being to make the best decision.

Presumably God is also benevolent, which means he would do so.

If God is also omnipotent, then there's nothing holding him back from doing the above based on his knowledge of what the universal factual-like-numbers best course of action.

Whether or not we think that sucks or not is irrelevant, because the number 2 is still the number 2 regardless of your personal feelings on the matter.

Now I personally can't see any point in something like Harlequin Ichthythosis, but then I'm also ignorant on a lot of things.

So the reason to believe what God says is because God says it.
>now hurry up and get your coat we're going to be late for mass.
ayy lmao

But I am the developer, I can break the game because I code the game. I can make or play the game however I please.
To take the metaphor deeper and deeper xD

>>Alot of what we can't do now like fucking as much as we want and being gluttonous is because of the devil

>Exactly why does God allow the devil to exist, if God is father of all creation then he created the devil too.
Angels were were more educated than humans and many were jealous of God valuing us as he did, god did not make the devil do what he did they have free will as do we.

>But I am the developer, I can break the game because I code the game. I can make or play the game however I please.
>To take the metaphor deeper and deeper xD
But other things will likely break or be exploited by the players it's like a rubicks cube.

If God is all knowing, then God created the devil knowing it would do what it did.

Yep pretty much
This is the Leap of faith :)

And since we know that faith is unreliable, we shouldn't make that leap.

>If God is all knowing, then God created the devil knowing it would do what it did.
Not really buying that explanation, freewill means we have the ability to be unpredictable but in the end god will win the overall end is God's making not each individual action everyone makes.

If God cannot predict what we will do, then God is not all knowing.

All knowing means all knowing muh dood.

>And since we know that faith is unreliable, we shouldn't make that leap.
God is the best bet and even if you were wrong at least in the end you had nobility and believed in something weren't a dirty athiest scum sucker.

False premise: evil does not exist.

see . The Book of Revelations says that Satan will get what's coming to him, but there doesn't seem to be any benefit to destroying him sooner than later. "Evil" wouldn't just cease to exist in his absence.

You can't control your beliefs. I didn't choose not to believe in God. I just don't, and can't will my self to do so.

Claiming I do doesn't help either, because that's not true.

>All knowing means all knowing muh dood.
He must know what little bitches you faggots are then.

>God is the best bet
Is it? What if it's the worst bet?
>even if you were wrong at least in the end you had nobility
How is it noble to be unquestioningly subservient?
>a dirty athiest scum sucker.
ayy lmao

God knows what we would do in any given situation, but it is still a series of free will choices that either cause or put us in any given situation. See Molinism: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism

You absolutely can control your beliefs. It takes some time and dedication, but if you constantly expose yourself only to views that would reinforce the desired belief, and not allow yourself to judge those views critically, you can persuade yourself.