Lets have a serious conversation about God

Lets have a serious conversation about God
Sup Forums

Does he exist? Why or why not? What is he? If he does exist, would his existence mean an objective moral code also exists? Does The Problem of Evil prove he doesn't exist?

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no more
see below
dead
absolutely not
no

new age shit is just old age shit. learn that shit. candyass

Nigga what

He seems to put himself above moral code in job by saying we weren't here when it was made.

Humans created gods when they had no idea how to explain the world around them or their own emotions.
There is no god. Rip the bandaid off. deal with it.

You're assuming the bible is to be taken at a literal interpretation rather than an ethical and thematical interpretation

Buurrrrp mmorty

Also, it's interesting; people seem to condemn God for ordering the murder of a nation to protect Israel in the old testament. He did the exact opposite in the New testament, and let the Jews and their Temple be destroyed. He gets blamed either way. Even God can't win for losing.

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Parables etc or not, the idea would still carry. Is God, whatever he is, above our concepts of even good and evil? Job seems to suggest he is, on account of his origin.

How do you know? Have you ever seen the documentation proving that is the origin of religion? And even if you did how do you know they're real, I mean that in a metaphysical sense, in that you can ultimately know nothing, even the physical. How do you know the world wasn't made in the exact way it was from the moment you were born, for the sole purpose of testing you as an individual in the way that would best fit you?

What I'm trying to say is that the edge of science is faith, there is a jumping off point where everyone has to accept that they know nothing and either believe there is a purpose to life, and therefore a God, or the opposite. Both are equally as fiesable.

If this world was made to best fit me then someone really fucked up the paperwork on that one

There is an interesting book on this by Kierkegaard, it deals with Abraham being commanded to kill his son Isaac, even though murder is a sin. Basically he comes to the conclusion that God is the ultimate authority on right and wrong, and to surrender yourself to the faith that you're obeying his commands is to become what he calls a "Knight of Faith" (albiet there are only two people in history he actually considered to be true KoFs, the idea is to strive to be it even if it is futile)

From an Athiests standpoint, it's very similar to the Superman Nietzsche talks about in that an individual decides for himself what is and isn't moral.

You are God

It's called faith for a reason it's not for everyone but there definitely is an assumed moral code to do good and if you live that way (like Jesus) you have a shot at salvation.

Thats not what I'm saying, I'm saying that in the end God and science are burried in the same grave. Faith in SOMETHING is the motivation for humanity, regulardless of whether or not its faith in God or a lack thereof

Wouldn't the existence of a solid moral code prove the existence of God? If there is a set right and wrong, there must be a force that decides what those are.

God was the aliens that came to enlighten our ancestors thousands of years ago but when they realized we couldn't be helped they fucked off to some other solar system.

I disagree. Determination and curiosity is what has driven us this far and will do onwards. Having faith in a higher being may help you with personal stuff but faith doesn't build your future. In many cases faith holds you back since your ''god'' won't allow you do do certain things that have no rhyme or reason in the real world.

I'm a faithful person don't get me wrong but there's nothing to prove. It's called faith because we believe based on a feeling. There are testimonials of people having experiences with God but I haven't experienced them so I'm going on purely faith.

But do you not have faith in your determination? Do you not believe that there is no God even without being able to disprove it? And even if you could, how can you trust your evidence? I'm not trying to insult you or anything I'm just pressing a point. Everything is based in faith.

christian god is next god on a long list of gods that aren't needed because they were imaginary

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and i'll bet you call people who have faith in other things stupid because you know deep down that evidence is all that actually matters in practice and reality. a comforting thought or belief is harmful, and you use it to enable and defend the people who have the exact same faith you do, but excuse them for murdering people in the name of their faith
you're garbage and so is everybody who thinks like you. i hope you die

which old stuff you mean?


the Apocrypha??

why is the turtle in the wall.

It's pointless to talk to you. No matter what I say you will just jump at ''but what about god in THAT sense then?''
I don't have faith in my determination I HAVE determination.
If you're looking for some scientific molecular quantum phyhsics reason why god doesn't exist then I don't have the answer.
does that prove to me that god exists because I don't have the answer?
No.
God doesn't exist because there is plenty of proof that he has literally done nothing, absolutely NOTHING, and people still believe in him.
How about YOU find ME proof that there is a god? Good luck with that champ

God bless you user I hope Jesus can touch your damaged life

The idea of a Christian God is for most people a surrogate. If there was a God, of course it would be a monotheistic God, as moral reasoning has proven. The argument was for a creator and whether or not he has authority over morality.

This is the more important question

There is no proof of God just as there is no proof that there is no God and that's my point.

No mom I'm not going to church to pray to a false God

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Its his summer home (his permanent residence is on his back)

Waiting for no God evidence

If god created the world, what is the world but god?

If od is the world then why is the world imperfect?

Furthermore, why does an all knowing, all powerful and all good god allow evil to exist?

Either he's willing but unable, in which case he isn't god, or he's able but unwilling, in which case why call him god?

this

it was hard for me to let go of there being a god, but once you let your self get out of that thinking the world is so much more simple and clear

>implying that man isn't the source of Evil
>implying that evil isn't a side effect of free will

If God removed evil, he'd remove free will, if he removed free will, then mankind wouldn't be mankind, if mankind isn't mankind, the purpose of creation is null

you're assuming a thousands of years old book by unknown authors is inherently so special we should reject logic and selectively analyze each sentance in a different way that results in the whole not being completely absurd by any standard of ethics. Why?

'If there was no God, everything would be permissible.'

If there's no big man in the sky, why the fuck do people know what the right thing to do is, humans are inherently evil, so without rules given to us; how do we know whats right and whats wrong?

For instance, take two 1-year olds and put em on the floor with one toy. without being told to share they both selfishly fight for that toy. That's their natural instinct because they don't know any better.

So being the first human, they would have had to been given rules and regulations on how to be kind and treat others kindly.


Heck, even if you don't believe in the God thing, look at all of creation, the universe, the cosmos, the 35+ factory type cells in a human skin cell. There had to have been intelligent design to create all of this, not just some big explosion, billions of years ago.

The purpose of The Bible isn't to give answers to how, but rather answers to why. It isn't meant to be taken literally, but rather to give people a moral code to live by, and no that doesn't mean "hurr we can have slaves now" that means look at the underlying themes of The Bible, the philosophy behind it. A philosophy that supports things like Forgiveness and Love, which to this day are infallible.

The God I believe in, gave man a choice in the very first book of the bible, when he created the tree of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve were given a choice from the very beginning to either obey and maintain a sinless pure human race, or go against the rules; thus sin entering the world (not God cursing the world with sin)

The problem of evil is man choosing to do whats not right...having a selfish nature, if you will.

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As the pope ones said

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from what i understand, it is meant to be taken literally. Studying the original language of the Bible helps us understand what is and isn't literal (slang of the day/phrases used in casual language).

Egoism is the polar opposite of the biblical notion of objective morality. Stirner writes that morality is relative to the individual, however you can look at human history to see which idea is superior. Unity, accepting of right and wrong, always trump moral anarchy.

Good luck finding the original bible my dude

Take anything else, any other character in any other book. Would it make sense for you to decide that because there is no proof these characters never existed, it is 50/50 that they did? You would live in a world where there might be magic, wizards, mind readers, demons, thor, faeries, sea monsters, flat earth ect. If you assume every idea ever conceived by the human race might be real because something that doesn't exist makes no evidence for it's nonexistance you would have no ability to model or funtion in reality. You would be commited to asylum.

the problem of evil proves god is a woman

1. god wouldn't exist within the universe, it would have to exist outside

2. it is alive or at least was alive but as the universe is still running and has to have a power source, at least some creatures of god's species that can control it exist.

3. the word "moral" means to fit it to the way things are. it comes from the french "more". there is no "objective morality". various creatures under god behave in all sorts of ways. children eat parents and vice versa, and brutality is normal.

4. "evil" is a silly concept.

god has no obligation to be nice or like you at all. it is, by definition, a higher power and that means you can't judge it. if you follow common religions, you're a fucking retarded fool.

i'm about to get a philosophy bachelor's and um, this argument as well the argument atheists--who think they're intelligent--pose is the same argument that is destroyed on the first day of phi 101.

1. if god exists, it is omnipotent and omni benevolent

2. bad things happen to good people

3. therefore, god does not exist

that is childish bullshit and the first "bad" argument you learn to crush.

If there is an objective morality, there is a force that defines it. Nobody can deny this and it's equally as difficult to find historical evidence of moral individualism working on a mass scale in the same way as moral objectivism.

Over hundreds of years of excavations, we find manuscripts (for instance the Dead Sea Scrolls[the book of Isaiah]) that contain only grammatical errors compared to its manuscripts that date centuries before the one most recently found.

ok i will try to explain

people want to lnow about stuff (remember when you were a child and your favourite question was why?)

at some point that doesnt apply anymore, it doesnt really matter where you draw the line.
if you are a stone age idiot, you believe in thundergods,
then old bearded guy, then "the universe has meanig"

fun fact: it doesnt

but its human to think otherwise

"i am important, therefore i must conquer and will prevail"

your brain tells you so, because thats how you survive as species

also you dont need religion to dream of a life after death, because your brain wants you not to die
"i have a soul" or "a part of me will live on" is very human
but just because you want something, doesnt make it real

in the end all you can do is rely on probabilities

sure there is a chance that we live in the matrix,
just like there is a chance that my dick is in you ass right now and you just dont feel it because i used anaesthetics....

sure there could be a god, but it much more likely that your brain wants to believe it, because it is afraid of death.

that religion hand waves two of humanities biggest questions, life after death, meaning of life by just saying "duh, god" seems too convenient

tldr; after death it will be like a dreamless sleep, there is no deeper meaning in life, your brain just really REALLY wants it to be otherwise

>Does he exist?
Probably not, but cannot be said with absolute certainty in the same sense that you can't prove there isn't a teapot in orbit between Mars and Jupiter.

>Why or why not?
It is simply very unlikely that a God with actual influence over this universe exists. If you mean a deistic God (that is, a God that doesn't interact with our universe), then we can neither prove nor disprove such an existence and it is pointless to debate it.

>What is he? If he does exist, would his existence mean an objective moral code also exists?
Not if deistic God. But if a prime mover, a creator of some sort, then yes, potentially.

>Does The Problem of Evil prove he doesn't exist?
No, it only proves that God is a sadistic cunt (if he exists).

God gives humanity a choice to obey him, and when they disobey, its a display of raw sin.

forgot one thing:
if you believe in "god" or something similar, you are your brains cuck

look up the backfire effect

Damn dude. I just got hit with a wave of reality right there. I've always kinda contemplated on whether or not existence has started around me and history is a lie. Fuck, even the whole reality is a computer program peaked me.

God knows there are two apples on the table. God knows which you will eat. Despite any effort you exert, you are incapable of eating the other apple, as god cannot be wrong. Congratulations, you have no free will to eat the other apple. Now is god capable of growing an apple too big for him to eat in an hour? Reading this you will either do mental gymnastics untill you believe your own lies, and you are lost to reality, or you will consitter why the idea of gods is flawed in it's core.

>>Why or why not?
>It is simply very unlikely that a God with actual influence over this universe exists. If you mean a deistic God (that is, a God that doesn't interact with our universe), then we can neither prove nor disprove such an existence and it is pointless to debate it.

i agree with you, but evertime i phrase it like this, i feel like others see it as "so you just have a different view on god, you just want to talk about him"

they never really listen what the words MEAN

I saw this one thing that said Sup Forums was a bunch of smart people acting like retards and I can confirm that.

Sure, it's called logic.

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>God knows there are two apples on the table. God knows which you will eat. Despite any effort you exert, you are incapable of eating the other apple, as god cannot be wrong. Congratulations, you have no free will to eat the other apple.

The fact that YOU do not know implies both free will and the lack thereof, you make decisions and yet your decisions are already known.

>Now is god capable of growing an apple too big for him to eat in an hour? Reading this you will either do mental gymnastics untill you believe your own lies, and you are lost to reality, or you will consitter why the idea of gods is flawed in it's core.

This one is simple, being all powerful, God simply decides he can't eat the apple, until he decides he can. If an all powerful being created a weight they can't lift, then they made the decision to not lift the weight.

>Does he exist? Why or why not?
No good reason to believe he does.
>What is he?
A label applied to a variety of concepts.
>If he does exist, would his existence mean an objective moral code also exists?
No.
>Does The Problem of Evil prove he doesn't exist?
In general, no. For specific versions, yes.

If he decides he can't, until he can, then he can at any time eat the apple. So he still can't make an apple he can't eat. How about this? Can god who can do anything, decide to stop existing, and had never exist in the first place, in other words, is it possible, if god willed it, that there isn't, never was, and will never be a god?

God is a dispassionate observer

He knows your fate, he knows it's fucked up, he does nothing to help

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>being all powerful
If God was all powerful he could have wished Satan into the cornfield ages ago, there would be no need for a "war" between God and Satan

And why do they have to do it on Earth? Why don't they duke it out on Mars or Venus?

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He?

They. You mean they.

user, god can do anything except forgive us for our sins without first killing his son.

Where he came up with the idea of sin in the first place and his son is also himself. Religion be weird.

Whatever plane God lives in, he is a slave to it's physics

well, except he can't do anything different than how it says he will do it in the bible, because the bible cannot be wrong. That, and he can't cease to exist forever, because then there is no god.

wut

He cannot control time. He has to sit and wait for shit to happen just like the rest of us.

No, there is no such thing as allah

This discussion should have some clarity added before you guys strawman each other, there is a huge difference between discussing god in the biblical sense vs god as a concept of greater power that we have potentially no understanding of.


The notion of “god” in the wider sense is impossible to deny with any real conviction. The term could just refer to too much.

Not him, but denying the notion of god, even in the wider sense, is pretty trivial. You just can't affirm the negative.

Dude hes just a tortoise nommin thru dry wall chill out. He exists he right there

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why have you decided that god is bound by some of the laws of physics like time, but not others like it being impossible to create matter and energy from nothing instead of only being able to convert matter and energy that already existed. and if you believe that matter and energy existed for as long or longer than god existed, then why can you not believe that forces of physics you believe in acted upon matter and energy to form the current state of reality?

Either he does exist and has created a world where total shit is allowed to happen, or he can't stop it happen. Neither earns my respect.

EVERYTHING in nature is imperfect and comes in pairs of 2 opposites:
male and female, good and evil, light and dark, matter and antimatter and so on. nothing can exist without its opposite.
so if god exists and is perfect, it means he has no opposite, therefore he is both good and evil which means that god and the devil are the same thing
god is not good nor moral nor anything, god is a perfectly neutral force that couldn't give less of a fuck about us even if he tried

That nigger made the Earth at least, solar system at best. He's not some all-powerful universe creator.

the word god contradicts itself, omnipresent being, how do have a serious conversation about it?

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because it's dishonest as hell to point to any greater force within the universe and say "there's god! No wait, there's god over there. Wait i'm god, and you're god, and that toaster is god. In fact, god surely exists because everything that exists is god!" Sarcasm aside, it's dishonest to assert that something with no concrete definitions exists, because you could just decide anything you want is that thing by definition. it's just you wanting god to exist, so you remove all criteria for what counts as god.

>EVERYTHING in nature is imperfect and comes in pairs of 2 opposites
u wot?
>good and evil
Concepts / labels that we apply to behaviors, not things that exist in nature.
>light and dark
Dark doesn't exist, it's just the absence of light.
>nothing can exist without its opposite
What is the opposite of mass?

There is creator. And how can we know what it is. No one knows. Dont trust any relogion.

No one knows if there is a creator. Don't trust anyone who says they do.

>Does he exist?
>Why or why not?
idk, but considering the lack of evidence, propably not, atleast i cant say i believe in him and be logical at the same time.
>What is he?
as far as im concerned, an imaginary friend for adults.
>If he does exist, would his existence mean an objective moral code also exists?
impossible to say as we dont know if he exists or not or what he actually would be.
>Does The Problem of Evil prove he doesn't exist?
nah, it just proves that if he does exist, he is evil himself.

>impossible to say as we dont know if he exists or not or what he actually would be.
This part we actually can say, since morality is fundamentally subjective. No matter what sort of basis a god provided for a moral code, you could simply disagree and have your own.

i agree, but i really dont like talking about morality, seems so pointless.

>He was behind

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Antimass

Doesn't exist.