I am asking this from an neutral viewpoint

Aaron Morris
Aaron Morris

I am asking this from an neutral viewpoint:

Why is capitalism better than socialism?

(I just found this picture and thought it would be fitting. It does not reflect my viewpoint.)

All urls found in this thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQrrJmlrhNs
https://youtu.be/rPILhiTJv7E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AndrSAkaSw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOBFMMbUFI8
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1621575896
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS4pmfLWiz8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS4pmfLWiz8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGCz6xxiw
http://hooniverse.com/2011/12/28/buying-a-brand-new-car-in-the-communist-ussr/
https://mises.org/library/socialism-economic-and-sociological-analysis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=984
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Russian_innovation#.C2.A0Soviet_Union
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Projects/BPEA/1995-micro/1995_bpeamicro_craig.PDF
http://www.uk.coop/resources/what-do-we-really-know-about-worker-co-operatives
Charles Diaz
Charles Diaz

Socialism is a paper tiger, Capitalism is an iron rabbit. It's all psychological really, having the high tax cut from your checks is very demotivating. But when you get your checks and it only has a minor cut you feel a lot better about spending your money.

You don't feel like building something big because you won't make that much more anyway, the more you make the more they take.

It's all about the hivemind really, 315,000 million people all spending their money how they want is much better for the world than a select few rats *cough* I mean politicians spending everyone's money for them

Elijah Price
Elijah Price

Why is air better than water? You need to be a little more specific if you want (You)s.

Brandon Watson
Brandon Watson

In a socialist system, there is almost no incentive to accomplish anything innovative. No incentive to make new tech or medicine. What for? You'll only get a little more money for tonnes more risk.

Evan Edwards
Evan Edwards

Name one Socialist country that isn't complete shit.

inb4 HURR NORDIC COUNTRIES ARE SOCIALIST BECAUSE THEY HAVE WELFARE

Justin Thomas
Justin Thomas

They are both shitty enlightenment systems.

Isaiah Howard
Isaiah Howard

Well...

...huh.

Dylan Lee
Dylan Lee

Socialism is an invention of the jews and is pushed by the jews religiously in order to create a slave class dependent on the state

Capitalism is an invention of the white man and is embraced by non-parasites

Zachary Rivera
Zachary Rivera

Implicit in all socialist systems, Communism included, is that the collective of people is more important than the individual. This reasoning provides the justification for reducing human rights and intruding on peoples' decisions - they don't matter, the nation matters. It results in an unwillingness to work, to innovate, to create, because whatever you produce will be gathered by the "people" - the government - and redistributed. Your industry and labor belongs to other people, and you in fact belong to other people.

By contrast, Capitalism treats people as individuals and guarantees that the product of their labor and creativity will belong exclusively to them, not to others. It turns out that people are far more motivated to work and think when they know whatever they create will benefit them greatly. Then, they can exchange their creations with others through the medium of trade, enriching everyone.

Where people naturally get offended by this is that, in pure capitalism, some people do get wealthier than others. It turns out there are people who are inherently smarter, more attractive, more athletic, and luckier than others. That means the distribution of wealth will be uneven. Even so, the overall wealth of every member of society under capitalism is enormously better than the same under socialism.

Would you like to know more?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQrrJmlrhNs

Brody Campbell
Brody Campbell

Well, shit, if you got more I'm up to read.

Adam Mitchell
Adam Mitchell

Capitalism is the most "free" marketing style. It follow very closely to "You're the master of your fate", the risk is of course, just as you have the chance of making big bucks, you have a good chance of failing as well. It's all about gambling and risk assessment.

Socialism is all about "security over freedom", you won't theoretically starve on the street for failing a business venture, but you won't succeed either because most of your money will be given to the government via high taxes. Socialism and communism are incredibly limited because you can only be what the government wants you to be, there's no space for self thoughts because that would be selfish and harmful to the masses.

As a Taiwanese chinklet, we're more than aware of the rising communist meme around the world. If you publicly support communism in Taiwan, don't be surprise when people lynch you on the street. Only those that have never seen communism before would support it.

The best part about all this is that most people that support communism / socialism are leftist "artist", music student, gender study, humanities, and other waste of time. These are the people that dies first in a socialistic society as they provide no intrinsic values, they're only here because capitalism allowed them to exist.

James Roberts
James Roberts

B-BUT
THATS NOT REAL COMMUNISMMMMM!

Owen Miller
Owen Miller

If you publicly support communism in Taiwan, don't be surprise when people lynch you on the street.

This is good, if only we had the same mindset

Oliver Peterson
Oliver Peterson

I make joke to make easier to understand. Please read in broken russian accent for full effect.

In communist Russia, you wait on breadline.
In capitalist pig dog america, bread line waits on you.

It's not perfect system comrade, corruption is everywhere.
But life is generally better in a capitalist country, as there always seems to be excess that spills over from the top.
Maybe not a fair amount, but enough to live comfortably.
Pair that with the chance to better yourself, and become rich pig dog yourself. And things aren't so bad.
Unless you keep electing retards into office, who strip your rights, and make you slaves.

Dylan Gonzalez
Dylan Gonzalez

Sure.

This might be better as a question and answer thing, but the root of it is this:

Let's say that you have some apple seeds and an idea to plant an orchard. Why would or wouldn't you?

Well, let's say you plant this orchard, exercising all your labor and time, and then after it's done and apples start to grow, the tribe shows up and says: "You need to help those in need, so we are taking your apples for the common good." This leaves you with a tiny fraction of the apples you planted. Would you still have gone through all the work? Probably not.

Now, let's say you plant the orchard and also build a fence around it. Now, the fruit grows and people show up but, instead of taking it, they pay you for the apples. Or they trade oranges and pears for it. Would you plant it now/ Of course you would. Even better, the knowledge you used to create that orchard can be used by others to plant pear and orange orchards, and now all of society is better off. Naturally, the orchard owners are richer than the people who gather the fruit from the trees, but even the workers have access to fruit they did not have before.

Which society would you like to live in?

Ayden Parker
Ayden Parker

https://youtu.be/rPILhiTJv7E

Brody Green
Brody Green

Havana looks comfy in that pic desu. I would hate Hon Kong because I'm an aspie shut-in.

Ethan Reed
Ethan Reed

Here's a rider's digest version of Yaron's longwinded explanation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AndrSAkaSw

Nolan Stewart
Nolan Stewart

its not just that "capitalism is better than socialism", baka

theres more than that, capitalism needs to work towards a strong national-export oriented industry and without strong institutions and education its moot anyways

Matthew Hill
Matthew Hill

Scenario 1: Guy is really bad at managing the industry is in charge of. Industry fails, government dumps good money after bad to try and revive it. Death spiral ensues.

Scenario 2: Guy1 is really bad at managing the industry he is in charge of. Guy2 is very good at managing the industry. Guy1's industry fails, Guy2's industry grows and eventually takes over.

Socialism attempts to put people "with good moral fiber" in charge of making the economy grow.
Capitalism puts people who have been proven to be good at making the economy grow in charge of making the economy grow.

Isaiah Brooks
Isaiah Brooks

The Soviet Union fell because of fudge pops

Juan Miller
Juan Miller

This was in a Randalls in Houston.

Noah Cooper
Noah Cooper

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOBFMMbUFI8

Dominic Taylor
Dominic Taylor

socialism: everyone makes enough money to buy the goods at the grocery store

capitalism: no one can afford the goods in the grocery store because the CEOs and the big central government take all of the money in the form of high salary and high taxes

Socialism wins bub.

Wyatt Roberts
Wyatt Roberts

You are literally shitposting from a computer a capitalist invented, which has been reduced in price from many thousands of dollars to only a couple of hundred, and you say that people can't afford food.

Here's a (you)

Christopher Foster
Christopher Foster

socialism: everyone makes enough money to buy the goods at the grocery store
goods at the grocery store

Jaxson Stewart
Jaxson Stewart

implying there'd be goods at the grocery store

Wyatt Turner
Wyatt Turner

Redundancy. Capitalism, or more correctly the free market, has more redundancy than a system where everything is centralized into the government. In the free market, a bad harvest isn't too bad because there's always more suppliers to choose from. In a socialist economy, you're hoping that the government will never screw up. Ever. Because if it does, there's no other recourse.

Evan Mitchell
Evan Mitchell

Socialists can't afford to fill their stores with goods because they are taxed to death

Capitalists have full stores because they made a profit on the goods sold and kept said profit

Daniel Moore
Daniel Moore

Look at all this food people can afford in a socialist utopia

Aaron Green
Aaron Green

Socialism is state spending or equal pay
Uh, but i guess retards will never learn...

But arguing agaisnt socialism here on Sup Forums is a moot point, because it ends up in a complete circlejerk. Try to go to socialist forums to learn more

Bentley Murphy
Bentley Murphy

I know. The shelves are empty. Everyone bought all of the food instead of letting it sit on the shelves.

Colton Fisher
Colton Fisher

fuck off lefty pol

Jordan Lewis
Jordan Lewis

Venezuela
Socialist

Nicholas Gutierrez
Nicholas Gutierrez

Socialism is good if it's restricted to the people who is contributing to it, ie. NATIONAL SOCIALISM.

Ryder James
Ryder James

Just for you then ;)

Jose Hill
Jose Hill

doesn't know what national socialism is

Juan Peterson
Juan Peterson

Just curious. what do you think Billionaires even do with their money? Sure sometimes you have an idiot who stumbles backwards into their fortune and spends it all on Baseball teams and Space Programs (in other words a lot of people are making money off this idiot), but most of the time they use their money in order to grow their influence over the market. In other words they spend their money employing people.

Zachary Jenkins
Zachary Jenkins

Try figuring out what to do with the countless amounts of resources and their multiple uses from a top down perspective.

Daniel Nelson
Daniel Nelson

are you for fucking real?

Oliver Lewis
Oliver Lewis

Sup Forums doesn't like having their views challenged. see

also i got perambanned from cripple Sup Forums for disagreeing with someone. lmfao.

Elijah Kelly
Elijah Kelly

Yeah, yeah, it's about state or collective ownership of the means of production and all.

Thing is that when you remove market competition that way, you remove the incentives to provide goods and services, and do so efficiently. When a company has political protection and state backing like that, why would they try to serve customers? They don't have to. Same reason why you get poor customer service from the government in any country, or any company that has a monopolistic position.

Sebastian Myers
Sebastian Myers

here's the tldr

Adrian Ward
Adrian Ward

Venezuela suffers from frequent blackouts
It must be because they are so rich, they use more power now!

Camden Perez
Camden Perez

Must be all those free Plasma TVs.

Daniel Taylor
Daniel Taylor

Thing is that when you remove market competition that way, you remove the incentives to provide goods and services, and do so efficiently. When a company has political protection and state backing like that, why would they try to serve customers? They don't have to. Same reason why you get poor customer service from the government in any country, or any company that has a monopolistic position.
kek, So people no longer are hungry in a socialist society?

when you remove market competition that way, you remove the incentives to provide goods and services
source?

David Gomez
David Gomez

I do. But thank you for your concern.

Brody Jenkins
Brody Jenkins

Capitalism has produced so much wealth that the biggest health problem for people living in poverty is obesity. Meanwhile in socialist paradises people are fighting in the streets over dog meat and toilet paper.

Easton Morris
Easton Morris

So why in the world do you think Nazi germany had anything to do with Socialsim?

Christopher Wood
Christopher Wood

I bet you can't even name me 3 socialist societies

Austin Allen
Austin Allen

This is a very well written joke

Lincoln Gutierrez
Lincoln Gutierrez

Socialism breeds incredible corruption and destroys incentive to produce.

Jose James
Jose James

Capitalism is more natural. Products and services tend to flow faster from the source to the needy. Businesses have to be constantly improving to compete so the economy runs more efficiently. (If I understood correctly).

Cooper Gomez
Cooper Gomez

Because capitalist societies are not corrupt at all

Not at all, in the nature (tribal human societies) the spoils of the hunt are distributed by everyone, the tribe land is not owned privately, everyone works towards common goals...

Jose Jones
Jose Jones

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1621575896

Hunter Green
Hunter Green

Corruption is handled better in a Capitalist country where competition mitigates its effects than a socialist country where power is concentrated in an oligarchy of party elite

Blake Fisher
Blake Fisher

Because they did a socialism reform in terms of Öffa.

Luis Bell
Luis Bell

socialist country where power is concentrated in an oligarchy of party elite
Source?

Capitalist country where competition mitigates its effects
Because there aren't oligarchies in capitalist nations. When will you start to actually arguing instead of spouting memes

Dylan Taylor
Dylan Taylor

And in what way is that socialism?

Alexander Smith
Alexander Smith

Source?
every socialist country to ever exist

Because there aren't oligarchies in capitalist nations. When will you start to actually arguing instead of spouting memes

There are oligarchies in the United States and we recognize that they do more harm than good

Austin Cooper
Austin Cooper

How would CEOs make money if nobody can afford to buy their products???

There is an incentive in capitalism to keep your product affordable to the masses. That incentive is income.

Xavier Morales
Xavier Morales

every socialist country to ever exist
Like?

There are oligarchies in the United States and we recognize that they do more harm than good

So what makes you think oligarchies are a problem of socialism when they exist in capitalism?

Isaac Turner
Isaac Turner

They spread wealth (to öffa) and created work by proxy (nationalistic work) to people.

Also: It's nationalistic SOCIALISM you twerk.

Easton Kelly
Easton Kelly

How would CEOs make money if nobody can afford to buy their products???
Exporting

Christian Myers
Christian Myers

Is progressive taxation socialism?

Juan Brown
Juan Brown

Like?
USSR, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, China, North Korea

So what makes you think oligarchies are a problem of socialism when they exist in capitalism?

Oligarchies are not inherent in capitalism

In socialism the state is the oligarchy

Tyler Martin
Tyler Martin

Why is capitalism
better than socialism?
Because kikes hijacked eternal socialism, every good society in history was socialist.

Parker Rivera
Parker Rivera

Sweden yes

Jace Thomas
Jace Thomas

Socialism isn't a Jewish invention, Socialism is nature.

Mason Brooks
Mason Brooks

Socialism is nature

Equality is not nature

Nature would be inequality and social hierarchy

Lincoln Ross
Lincoln Ross

North Korea
Socialist
China
Anything other then a mad man in charge of a country
Vietnam
Socialist
top kek

I don't know Laos, but i think there aren't any socialist who do not denounce Pol Pot regime

USSR, Cuba
Under a very broad definition, maybe

Oligarchies are not inherent in capitalism
Any capitalist regime who do not have a oligarchy?

In socialism the state is the oligarchy
And in capitalism it isn't because?

Jacob Garcia
Jacob Garcia

But I thought that nobody could afford to buy their product..........

Matthew Williams
Matthew Williams

And socialism is not total equality you dumb dumb

Grayson Smith
Grayson Smith

Retard, socialism has nothing to do with Marxist "equality" it has to do with the well being of the group above the individual bullshit, laws are socialism, rights to the people is socialism etc..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS4pmfLWiz8

More pay, more rights, more power, more respect to the people.

Leo Young
Leo Young

Other rich countries do. And depending on the product, the market does not need to be large, and inflated prices are beneficial.

Matthew White
Matthew White

Capitalism is the economic expression of a political system founded in the principles of individual liberty and property rights.

Do you want to have liberty? Do you want to own property? Or do you want to be a slave?

Jace Russell
Jace Russell

Another neo-nazi thinking germany was anything remotely similar with socialism

Elijah Jones
Elijah Jones

Have the freedom to be paid 10cents for eternity.

Ethan Harris
Ethan Harris

Capitalism is the economic expression of a political system founded in the principles of individual liberty and property rights.
source?

dat appeal to emotion

Isaac Brown
Isaac Brown

I can tolerate your marxist socialism
you can't tolerate my true socialism
Just kill yourself.

Jaxon White
Jaxon White

Capitalism: The natural tendency of people to exchange goods to their own benefit.
Socialism: Heavy handed centralization of power in which the elite take other people's stuff and hand it out as they see fit.

They aren't particularly exclusive.

Julian Myers
Julian Myers

source
Do you even speak English? Christ, why do people bother talking to you?

Robert Howard
Robert Howard

I do not call myself nazi, I am a national socialist.

Angel Adams
Angel Adams

Capitalism operates within the bounds of reality.

Socialism tries to impose itself as the new reality, and directly counters reality in several ways, such as requiring people to both sacrifice their lives for the common good and yet still be ready and able to work the next day.

Zachary James
Zachary James

if you say source one more time to something you can easily google...you are going to win a first class trip on pinochet airlines

Aiden Barnes
Aiden Barnes

If someone calls themselves National Socialist but violates these rules he isn't anything to me.

1: We do not seek any enemies in the world, and our revolution does not go against the interests of any nation.
2: We do not seek to destroy nations.
3: We do not hate other races as a default.
4: We seek out friendship and alliances all through out the world.
5: We are bound to help the peoples struggle for racial freedom and racial sovereignty.
6: We do not tolerate Marxism therefore Marxism must be exterminated.
7: We demand racial purity as the first priority of states within our control.
8: We do not seek war although we do not fear war, we only wish for rationality and respect for our will to be maintained.
9: We do not tolerate anyone going against the interests of our goals and truths.
10: We do not tolerate hatred without jury to fellow comrades.
11: We do not tolerate the unauthorized to tell us what we can or can't do.
12: We do not tolerate warmongers, and criminals.
13: We do not tolerate anyone breaking these rules.
National Socialist international constitution for unity of National Socialist nations

Alexander Scott
Alexander Scott

What the fuck are you talking about.

Henry Brooks
Henry Brooks

fpbp

Ryan Nelson
Ryan Nelson

Shh, he doesn't understand that socialism is even more mundane than capitalism

Benjamin Stewart
Benjamin Stewart

Progress leads to degeneracy
Case 1: USA

James Scott
James Scott

No, it's was a plan to escape the jewish-made currency system, which makes wealth by interest to the bankers and not to the people.

Ayden Rodriguez
Ayden Rodriguez

nazi germany was breddy gud lad

Brody Roberts
Brody Roberts

Capitalism: The natural tendency of people to exchange goods to their own benefit.
And what m akes you think that people can't exchange goods in a socialist society?

source?

We do not tolerate warmongers
Hahha, the irony

Gabriel Edwards
Gabriel Edwards

I just want to say that that picture of Hong Kong in 2010 looks fucking cool

Mason Wilson
Mason Wilson

A socialist economy increases positive innovation.

Gabriel Sanchez
Gabriel Sanchez

Nothing more mundane than the vain desire to control everything, right? At least for a socialist.

Brayden Ortiz
Brayden Ortiz

A socialist economy
What is this?

Bentley Lewis
Bentley Lewis

What are you talking about, national socialists care about the true rights of the people.

Carson Jenkins
Carson Jenkins

Nothing more mundane than the vain desire to control everything
And capitalists don't want to control everything?

Jack Hall
Jack Hall

These things come too early
As we make technological advancements
And automation fills nearly all jobs
And robots are perfected
We have to change the way we think, the idea that you have to work in society to earn your house, food, etc.
Things will change, theres no way to avoid it, robots & automation will cause some sort of new system to emerge

Ian Diaz
Ian Diaz

a bunch of people starving in a ditch

Ian Thomas
Ian Thomas

No, Jews lead to that. We were free market and capitalistic far longer than the 1960s hippy Jew commie revolution

Sebastian Taylor
Sebastian Taylor

Liberalism leads to degeneracy.

Matthew Thomas
Matthew Thomas

why did you change your trip you pinko faggot

Brayden Turner
Brayden Turner

Pay decided by the state, mandatory vacations, work towards giving everyone houses, work towards giving everyone farms, work towards giving everyone guns, work towards giving everyone means of production etc..

Capitalism is simply the freedom for capital to exploit.

Camden Gonzalez
Camden Gonzalez

this

ebin maymay

Connor Williams
Connor Williams

The fact that socialism requires that the government control all means of production. Trading of goods and services on an individual level must be banned to accomplish this.

Isaiah Powell
Isaiah Powell

The constant strawmna was getting tiring. This one suits me well, but doesn't give me that much (You)'s

Jayden Clark
Jayden Clark

capitalistic
USA was Socialist, aka We the people.

Chase Allen
Chase Allen

Dumbass. You're living in one.

Jackson Turner
Jackson Turner

He can't afford beans and rice from Walmart on a minimum wage job after taxes
lmao

Joseph Hernandez
Joseph Hernandez

he fell for the low standards and "deserve" for easy work

Hudson Robinson
Hudson Robinson

the Nordic countries seem fine

they are democratic socialist tho, it's not socialism

Samuel Phillips
Samuel Phillips

Pre 60's capitalism was great. The reason it was great was that the rich were heavily taxed and therefore monopolies were harder to obtain. Taxing the rich makes better capitalism, not communism

Charles Davis
Charles Davis

Pay decided by the state, mandatory vacations, work towards giving everyone houses, work towards giving everyone farms
This is what the nazis tried to do, but failed

But that is still far away from socialism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

The fact that socialism requires that the government control all means of production.

Nope, that is state capitalism/state socialism.

Socialism is when the workers own the means of production

Owen Diaz
Owen Diaz

The fact that socialism requires that the government control all means of production

Who told you that?

Grayson Ortiz
Grayson Ortiz

Nope! In fact, controlling everything is the fastest way to render a business completely uncompetitive. Control only the things vital to the product, and let other individuals handle everything else however they want. You can't even comprehend such delegation, can you?

Ethan Miller
Ethan Miller

Actually, no. Socialism is State ownership of the means of production. What you've described all exist in Capitalist economies, and most were pioneered by Capitalists. Socialism is not "being nice," it's the government confiscating control of industry from the people who own it.

Levi Perry
Levi Perry

WE

Cooper Wilson
Cooper Wilson

Nope, that is state capitalism/state socialism.
Socialism is when the workers own the means of production
workers own the means of production

you don't even know what that means

Wyatt Nelson
Wyatt Nelson

I decide what is socialism
inc 50 varients which all where anti nationalists as roots and differed in every economic way possible
Fuck off.

Luke Richardson
Luke Richardson

In fact, controlling everything is the fastest way to render a business completely uncompetitive
Are you stupid? If you control everything you can deny competitors acess to raw materials

Socialism is State ownership of the means of production

No, workers own the means of production

Nathaniel Davis
Nathaniel Davis

There are no price signals for central planners to use to determine the scarcity of resources since there are no market pressures. Therefore, resources aren't allocated efficiently and often lead to shortages. Also, capitalism necessarily relies on the mutual benefit of voluntary exchange. If you don't stand to benefit, you won't waste your time with buying/selling something. So in essence, in order to prosper, you have to be the best at servicing other people's needs.

Jonathan Moore
Jonathan Moore

So enlighten me

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

I'm not making anything up

Cooper Ramirez
Cooper Ramirez

right after nafta was signed. this really makes you think

Ryder Hill
Ryder Hill

Sorry, I didn't mean natural like in primitive, I meant "natural" like in "the most thermodinamically likely/stable state for a system".
Of course,human society is a lot more complex, which leads me to add, that socialists have had very good ideas that, integrated into a hybrid economy model, have done everyone good (like, workers have better conditions, which makes them happier and in turn more productive).
Probably socialism to some degree is the best system for humanity right now, but you should stay away from full Communism, like history has proven again and again.

Noah Butler
Noah Butler

wikipedia decides it

Jacob Moore
Jacob Moore

nazi germany
socialist
oh boy am i laffen

Alexander Lewis
Alexander Lewis

Under socialism put V1, V2, and ME262.
Under capitalism put 150 smoldering Sherman tanks and 1 smoldering Panther.

Elijah King
Elijah King

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS4pmfLWiz8

Soviet Union wasn't socialist if Germany wasn't socialist.

Brayden Gomez
Brayden Gomez

Probably socialism to some degree is the best system for humanity right now
Not yet, but when automation kicks in much more seriously

Wikipedia does not have sources
I bet you never read a scientific paper or anything similar. How is highschool Clettus?

I bet you never read a scientific paper
It's the nazi guy, of course he never read anything worthwhile

Dylan Ortiz
Dylan Ortiz

implying it wasnt
You're a special kind of retard, aren't you?

Jonathan Gomez
Jonathan Gomez

Soviet Union wasn't socialist
In a strict definition, no, USSR wasnt socialist

Jack Peterson
Jack Peterson

Then Socialism has never been tried :/

Lincoln Bennett
Lincoln Bennett

He doesn't know what the night of long knives was

Christian Miller
Christian Miller

Moron. NSDAP- National Socialistische Arbeiderspartei.

Look up the Nazis social policies- real fucking leftists.

Julian Morris
Julian Morris

I am still National Socialist under my own definition of Socialism.

Nathaniel Rivera
Nathaniel Rivera

Tito Yugo was a nice example desu.

Gavin Myers
Gavin Myers

that's state capitalism

We have an honest-to-dumbass Patrick Star here. No point in any further discussion, enjoy your inevitable decline to eating grass and dirt.

Zachary Phillips
Zachary Phillips

All workers held the means of production?

Hunter Price
Hunter Price

anybody got the .gif of patrick star saying venezuela is not real socialism

Landon Young
Landon Young

Ok then

Yugos said to me that yes, actual workers had relative control over the means of production. How actually that is true i dunno, i asked for literature, but he didn't knew anything in english

Parker Baker
Parker Baker

yes, first replies

Grayson White
Grayson White

Well lets use HDI as a metric. Pick some remaining socialist countries, and compare against populations of similar size in capitalist countries. What do you find?

There's not many left to do that with, however. Most have hybridized and have moved to reasonably open markets and personal ownership eg businesses and property. This should also tell you something.

Have a look at this to see how I personally see the "benefits" of Socialist economies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGCz6xxiw

As far as living under the system, well it's hard to say since I didn't have to but starving etc aside here's a Soviet story about getting a car in the bloc:

http://hooniverse.com/2011/12/28/buying-a-brand-new-car-in-the-communist-ussr/

Worlds apart when I contrast with obtaining my first car (one of 4 at our place) by working in the school holidays picking fruit when I was 16. Bought her for a few thousand.

Isaiah Taylor
Isaiah Taylor

I don't have that retarded as fuck definition of "workers owning the means of production" as socialism, my definition of socialism the the common good above the individual good, and all the resources of the state are used to develop the people.

Leo Brown
Leo Brown

He forgot to mention the huge debt Yugoslavia accumulated

Dylan Fisher
Dylan Fisher

because in order to maximize utility, a country needs to allocate its resources efficiently, or there will be a dead weight loss

Matthew Roberts
Matthew Roberts

Yep, and then they discovered that "hell is other people." When all of a demographic controls something, it really means the government controls it. Government is literally what a group of people decide to do together, after all, and the most powerful, popular, and ruthless voice always gets to lead it, one way or another.

Wyatt Mitchell
Wyatt Mitchell

Capitalism respects human rights. Socialism does not.

Landon Davis
Landon Davis

Canada
not complete shit

Nolan Campbell
Nolan Campbell

Well lets use HDI as a metric. Pick some remaining socialist countries
Well, Cuba has the highest HDI (or top 5, i don't remember) in the caribean.

Luke James
Luke James

LOL

And I'm not even a socialist.

Carter Reyes
Carter Reyes

Capitalism is simply the ability to generate profit at any cost, it is counterproductive to the rights of people.

Socialism in my definition is for rights of the people above profit.

Matthew Morales
Matthew Morales

je kan het niet eens goed in het duits schrijven. waarom zou ik luisteren naar een mongool?

(((az))) quotes
schöne quelle

nothing in this is socialist ya dingdong

you're all retards for thinking national socialism means socialism

Jacob Roberts
Jacob Roberts

Venezuela Cuba USSR North Korea

Not many exist because societies run on socialism fail.

Ryder Gutierrez
Ryder Gutierrez

Ns isnt socialism fucktard
The s was added to make plebs comfortable.

Jordan Ward
Jordan Ward

Survival of the fittest is nature you fucking moron.

Sebastian Long
Sebastian Long

retard, Germany was more socialist than USSR or Yugo.

James Collins
James Collins

Nordic countries are basically best in everything though...

THEY ARE ALSO WHITE THOUGH, SO....

Thomas Ortiz
Thomas Ortiz

USSR in its heydey wasn't terrible, but their shit economy let them down

Samuel Collins
Samuel Collins

the well being of the ant colony is nature, common good above individual.

Josiah Sanchez
Josiah Sanchez

Socialism was proven to be mathematically and axiomatically impossible 100 years ago.

https://mises.org/library/socialism-economic-and-sociological-analysis

Tl;dr : You end up with shortages if you don't let prices freely fluctuate. Prices & profits act as a signal sent by consumers to producers in order to calibrate production quantities and desires. Without profit, you wind up with a Venezuela type situation with shortages everywhere and a starving public.

Brayden Mitchell
Brayden Mitchell

Philosophically, Is a man not entitled to the sweat on their brow? Why shouldn't I have the right to work harder and gain more?

In practice, a free market simply functions more efficiently than socialism.

Parker Carter
Parker Carter

we are not ants, retard

Jackson Perez
Jackson Perez

socialism is good if people are white
capitalism is good if people are not white

Dylan Gutierrez
Dylan Gutierrez

Why don't socialists just make their own communities?

Why don't you start your own enterprises? Your own co-ops, your own cities?

Why seize le means of production? Why so violent?

You realize I wouldn't have a problem with you, if it wasn't for the lack of pluralist sentiment? I'm happy to coexist, if possible. But you make it impossible.

Charles Stewart
Charles Stewart

Fuck off, Reactionary Swine

Thomas Cook
Thomas Cook

Philosophically, Is a man not entitled to the sweat on their brow? Why shouldn't I have the right to work harder and gain more?

Socialism doesn't take away the right for you to gain more.

Brody Cooper
Brody Cooper

what is national SOCIALIST workers party of Germany

Hunter Lee
Hunter Lee

not at all-- look how shitty Greece is. Or Argentina.

Socialism is impossible (mathematically/economically) and immoral, regardless of race.

John Rogers
John Rogers

It was devised by Jews because Jews were marginalised throughout history. The people who opposed Jews were ,by mere coincidence, right wing. Thus, the Jews constructed an antithesis in the mid 19th century.

Keep in mind, the majority of commie jews back then advocated fro the destruction of the Jews as a race, merging them with the common citizenry.

James Carter
James Carter

debt is a thing exclusive to socialist countries

source?

Mason Parker
Mason Parker

North Korea
Venezuela

lol

Christian Hall
Christian Hall

debt is a thing exclusive to countries that spend their budget on social welfare programs

Angel Fisher
Angel Fisher

Why don't you start your own enterprises? Your own co-ops, your own cities?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
What is the democratic republic of Korea?

Andrew Bennett
Andrew Bennett

Depends what sort of socialism we're discussing here.

Eli Perez
Eli Perez

And Havana is the capital of a country under a trade embargo since the 50s. Trading does wonders developing a country.

Eli Kelly
Eli Kelly

Cuba trades with the rest of the free world

not an argument

Anthony Rogers
Anthony Rogers

debt is a thing exclusive to countries that spend their budget on social welfare programs

No, i had debts to my friends, and i didn0t had a social welfare program

Jaxson Wood
Jaxson Wood

you are not a country

Oliver Brown
Oliver Brown

Socialism is Hitler's creation, capitalism and usury is pure kike.

Kill yourself, whether you are an idiot or a shill. Seriously, Hitler would gas your fucking ass.

Xavier Morgan
Xavier Morgan

Waste of trips
WE THE PEOPLE as in government, not control of goods.

Jaxon Lee
Jaxon Lee

Look at the results. Neither is an ideal system, but capitalism has done us (particularly the United States) very well so far and seems to be the best path forward for the time being. When countries try to change it and introduce something like socialism, it never succeeds and only hurts the country. I hold out hope that technological developments will one day make Hitler's dream a reality, and to me capitalism is the best means for achieving that end.

Jordan Reyes
Jordan Reyes

You're a fucking neocon idiot brainwashed by bootlicking capitalist kikesuckers.

Kill yourself, you kike puppet.

Easton Gray
Easton Gray

gas yourself parasite

Parker Brooks
Parker Brooks

This meme never gets old. Keep on hoping for your sociaist utopia. Maybe when nation states start having fewer than 50 members you'll get your wish.

Tyler Carter
Tyler Carter

I am aware that co-ops exist. My question is: What are you still bitching about? Why do you still advocate for government force? Why don't all of you go and make your own Mondragon Corporation and your own communities etc etc?

Alexander Fisher
Alexander Fisher

Socialism (collectivism) is a power vacuum so oligarchies form, corruption is rife and turf wars ensue.

Socialism = stagnation, failure and death.

Capitalism is freedom.

Capitalism will eventually break away from being captured and exploited by oligarchies and corruption as we move towards more decentralized forms of technology.

Liam Edwards
Liam Edwards

Fuck your jew mother, you fucking idiot kkk tier southern trashbag. You're a disgrace to the white race.

Fucking jew lover.

Evan Jenkins
Evan Jenkins

Not an argument

Christian Kelly
Christian Kelly

Then what is your doubt? Japan is a capitalist country and as a debt of over 200% of it's annual GDP

I'm not. I'm just trying to dispel some myths people have of socialism

Lincoln Bennett
Lincoln Bennett

ok shlomo

Blake Roberts
Blake Roberts

implying the socialist party that dominates venezuela is less qualified to identify their socialism than you.

socialism ALWAYS results in venezuela (or cuba or NoKo, or china, or russia, or east germany, etc etc...)

the apparatchiks have plenty of luxuries, the peasants starve

every fucking time.

Luis Perry
Luis Perry

isn't it just crazy dawg how a whole apple tree jsut comes from a tiny ass lil seeed lmao

i mean look at the size of the thing heheheh

Kevin Nelson
Kevin Nelson

You are a fucking moron.

Tell me, why did socialist Germany emerged from the Great Depression as the strongest economy in Europe?
How did they go from destitute to 50 years ahead of the allies in less than a decade?

You're a fucking idiot, and I suggest you stop letting the jew tell you that debt is a health base for an economy.

I would blow your brains out myself if you weren't on that shithole rock at the asshole of the earth.

Christopher Nelson
Christopher Nelson

implying the socialist party that dominates venezuela is less qualified to identify their socialism than you.
Not me. Everyone outside of america knows Venezuela is not socialist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Read a little of the above link, and then tell me how Venezuela fits in

Evan Lee
Evan Lee

No.

The only """""socialist""""*** country that had good quality of life was Yugoslavia.

Anthony Lopez
Anthony Lopez

39 posts all the same
"that wasnt real socialism"
scoff, but provide no counterpoint
demand evidence, then refuse to accept evidence
prepare your next "that wasnt real socialism" post

Lincoln Williams
Lincoln Williams

Germany wasn't socialist

Ryder Russell
Ryder Russell

Except that's not how the free market economy of which capitalism creates works. Capitalism prefers centralization and economies of scale to make things more efficient and more productive. Capitalism will always move towards the most efficient and effective way to do things of which include: mass economies, interconnected economies, centralization, outsourcing, and economies of scale.

Anyone who says that capitalism moves towards de-centralization and local markets is a retard that doesn't understand how capitalist markets work, or an an-cap (which are the same thing teebeeech)

Michael Hernandez
Michael Hernandez

why did socialist Germany emerged from the Great Depression as the strongest economy in Europe?
meme

How did they go from destitute to 50 years ahead of the allies in less than a decade?

Absolutely meme. Britain was ahead of germany in everything, mate.

James Garcia
James Garcia

This is why taxing the dumb poor with their disposable income is the worst idea. Raise the no tax bracket all the way to 50-70k depending on the cost of living in your country.

You can even make the money back with tariffs, because they'll spend like stupid.

But yeah, hit the nail:
demotivating
Socialism literally disincentivises success, it literally persuades you to be mediocre. It's the system of people without the confidence that they can succeed. Society must accept some natural eugenics.

Capitalism with a priority to the poor is purely about competition, the strong and intelligent have the most to gain, but in this political climate they're the first to be silenced and will be told they're not high enough in the oppression Olympics to qualify for an opinion.

Alexander Wood
Alexander Wood

Get a clue you brainless marxist fuckwit.

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=984

Matthew Myers
Matthew Myers

demand evidence, then refuse to accept evidence
what evidence?

Luis Ramirez
Luis Ramirez

you really are retarded.

socialism is defined by it's State Collectivism

The State makes most decisions for you
The State owns EVERYTHING including the people
The State is always right
The State doesnt tolerate dissent or conflicting viewpoints
The State ensures your "co-operation" with slave labour camps "re-education" and the threat of violent death if you resist The State's demands
The State is run by ONE PARTY, no other political parties or opinions allowed.

this is particularly true ofr "National Socialists" (like stalin mussolini and hitler) who demand all who fall under their control adhere to their very narrow form of marxism to the exclusion of all else.

Nicholas Phillips
Nicholas Phillips

Your mom's pussy is red communist.
An entire Panzer Army couldn't plug her Fulda gap.

Wyatt Walker
Wyatt Walker

Marxists claiming Nazi success
What what what?

That's nationalism, when you're effected by a global crisis that actually has little to do with your own nation, protectionism and nationalism become incredibly sane policies.

Anthony Watson
Anthony Watson

I guess you could say

irmyt

Jeremiah Myers
Jeremiah Myers

FPBP

Nicholas Harris
Nicholas Harris

no.

Josiah Reyes
Josiah Reyes

Capitalism is the basic law of reality.

Socialism is nonsense.

Jayden King
Jayden King

Shill detected.
You may as well say the sky is redoing.

You are not worthy of human interaction, which is why you dwell in your mom's basement.

Zachary Wilson
Zachary Wilson

you really are deluded.

socialism is defined by The State
you are talking about Communism
unfortunately you cant get to Communism without going through the spanking machine of The Authoritarian Socialist State and The Dictatorship Of The Proletariat

read ANYTHING by marx then you will realize how utterly retarded you are.

Christopher Martinez
Christopher Martinez

I have no arguement, much like my ancestor criminals in front of the English magistrate before they got fucked off to abbo island
Great story m8.

Anthony Peterson
Anthony Peterson

wikipedia
written by various assholes like you who never read marx, but have lots of opinions on marx's ideas

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/

read this and then you might realize how utterly WRONG your post-modern re-interpretations of marxism are

Juan Howard
Juan Howard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Russian_innovation#.C2.A0Soviet_Union

Liam Sanchez
Liam Sanchez

eat a dick aquafresh.

nazi germany WAS socialist
The State "nationalized" every industry and put party apparatchiks in charge of them

Example: herman georing was in charge of ALL industries throughout germany, and that fat fuck had never run a business in his life.
goering's ONLY qualification was being hitler's buddy and loyal dogsbody.

Hudson Young
Hudson Young

Which is a reason why I personally find tax regimes such as the negative tax income are perhaps the better arrangement you can have if you MUST have an income tax.

Making your currency have demurrage is a better approach to the same problem without the need of a massive tax collecting agency that makes everyone hate you, but that has it's own administrative nightmares.

Increasing the velocity of money is the one monetary policy one should support.

Kayden Carter
Kayden Carter

according to Das Kapital, venezuela IS socialist.

wikipedia can say anything any asshole writes in it.

dont try to lecture me, you dont even know the difference between collective communism and authoritarian socialism

Xavier Bailey
Xavier Bailey

people are generally better off under capitalism than under socialism
Go to Haiti or the Philippines and tell them that.
capitalism gives labor product and creativity to working people
Not true. The product of labor goes to those who own the means of production, e.g. factory owners.
you belong to other people under socialism
That's bullshit and you know it.

Evan Kelly
Evan Kelly

no

so why dont you explain what socialism is then?
perhaps all the various attempts to make it work, simply failed because they lacked your brilliant insight.

share with us how socialism is NOT authoritarian state control of "the means of production" and single party rule.

Isaac Sanchez
Isaac Sanchez

But that's wrong. The fact that there is some centralization doesn't mean it's a crux of the nature of capitalism, but rather one of the many ways business adapt to regulations.

For the ur example, consider Standard Oil. Standard Oil was, and perhaps remains, the largest company to have ever existed, having presence in pretty much every crook and cranny that someone might have used oil. Using that logic, Standard Oil should have absorbed all it's competitors and destroyed all local competitors, which none of that happened. In fact, before it got disbanded, Standard Oil was facing more competitors than it did when the business began, and despite its enormous economy of scales it could not kill them off, or make offers which made it worth selling. Similar things happened, with railroads, steel, car manufacturing, and many, many other industrial fields in the USA, were a large competitor did, at times, arrive but if left free of regulation and restrains in competiton, more not less competitors would begin to appear to fulfill whatever niche, market, or local condition the larger animal is unwilling to fulfill.

That's the beauty of capitalism, all paths will be taken and if a business field isn't, you have a good indication there's some government intervention from behaving like it has when there were less.

Nicholas Reyes
Nicholas Reyes

Any rational person supports a mixed economic policy that keeps both extremes out of the loop.

Brayden Cook
Brayden Cook

Not really, all socialism demand you sacrifice part of the value of your sweat in favour of others who are unable, unwilling, or unskilled at it.

That's the core of socialism, setting restraints upon how much you can be worth so that others benefit from the excess worth involved, regardless of how truly deserving they are of it.

Jacob Anderson
Jacob Anderson

Only those that have never seen communism before would support it.
I guess that's why millions of former Soviets and Yugoslavs long for the old days.
leftist "artists"
musicians
le ebin gender studies meme students
humanities
wastes of time
wew lad
they die first
implying even the fucking USSR didn't have advanced artistic and cultural circles

Ryan Gonzalez
Ryan Gonzalez

haiti
a country full of ignorant niggers, run by one autocratic kleptocracy after another
they couldnt succeed under ANY economic system

the pillipeens
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
40 years of the autocratic kleptocracy of marcos, and 80 years of constant islamo-marxist insurgency is not the problem, it's capitalism's failure

clearly capitalism sucks if Pete next door drives a nice car to his job at an accountancy firm, while you ride around in a beat up 85 corrolla to buy crack with your welfare check.

William Richardson
William Richardson

Socialism isn't necessarily about 99% of something being taken away. It's about (in your example) the orchard workers themselves having control of the orchard and their working conditions and pay.

David Williams
David Williams

Protip: you can't.

Nolan Phillips
Nolan Phillips

b-b-but n-n-nobody ever misses out in capitalist dreamland! they must deserve it for being lazy fucks!! commie!11!!!!!

Lincoln Evans
Lincoln Evans

early US was as pure capitalist as it comes, and we didn't even have federal income tax until the early 1900s

things worked out pretty well

Tyler Edwards
Tyler Edwards

Thanks for the videos and explanations.

Joshua Parker
Joshua Parker

Rational people are the ones that agree with my opinion that a mixed economic policy that keeps both extremes out of the loop is best

FTFY. Eat shit and compromise.

Liam King
Liam King

Negative income tax has some interesting aspects, it's much more refined than basic income, but the first step is to stop taxing the poorest people.

Increasing the velocity of money is the one monetary policy one should support.
Absolutely, which is why I wouldn't touch middle class tax as they typically invest instead of spend. You're essentially taxing banks, investment and real estate at that stage, which isn't great but is a non issue against monetary velocity.

demurrage
This wouldn't sell in Australian politics and has already failed labor. That's why tariffs are necessary, on paper you argue you gain what you lose, because so little tax is raised from low earners. In reality, the insanity of their disposable income will mean the tax raised from tariffs will be higher than "predicted."

It's a policy that sounds good when you're campaigning and turns out even better.

Jeremiah Sullivan
Jeremiah Sullivan

orchard workers themselves having control of the orchard and their working conditions and pay.
They'd have that if they were the ones who raised the funding and supplies necessary to create the orchard.

Why aren't the orchard's owners entitled to the fruit of their labor that went into creating the orchard in the first place?
Why don't the workers use their labor to run their own orchard?
Why do communists and socialists always approach economic scenarios as if they were in a vaccum?

Noah Harris
Noah Harris

This is not true, 1) there would be government grants in almost any version of socialism, 2) if you make a firm to sell your innovation you'd also benefit from it, 3) the greatest innovations don't usually come from people trying to make a profit.

Connor King
Connor King

Rojava.

Andrew Myers
Andrew Myers

implying Germany wouldn't have been better off if Luxembourg won
wew

Leo Torres
Leo Torres

muh (mixed-market dependent on oil) Venezuela!!!1!!11!!!!!
implying that malnutrition and obesity can't coexist

Gavin Morales
Gavin Morales

the greatest innovations don't usually come from people trying to make a profit.

Anthony Cooper
Anthony Cooper

incredible corruption
The three most corrupt politicians in human history were staunchly anti-leftist despots backed by the USA and Britain.

Eli James
Eli James

Negative income tax has some interesting aspects, it's much more refined than basic income, but the first step is to stop taxing the poorest people.
Which is something I agree with, the income tax should really not touch anyone who is currently unable to hire a tax manager, and a tax system should be so simple and straightforward, the position of tax manager shouldn't exist in the first place.

Absolutely, which is why I wouldn't touch middle class tax as they typically invest instead of spend. You're essentially taxing banks, investment and real estate at that stage, which isn't great but is a non issue against monetary velocity.
Eh, there's a reason I don't like income tax: even if you raise the level of taxes to only touch them so they feel tax grants to investments will be a better choice, it still hits the low middle class much harder than the high middle class, where as forcing spending or investing will adjust to whatever economic level better.

This wouldn't sell in Australian politics and has already failed labor.
First, let me say I agree, small, reasonable tariffs with no protectionist intent (aka, not for specific products or the such) is indeed one of the better "taxes" to have, with the issues of compliance and it's ultimately regressive nature being important to remember. That said, what do you mean demurrage failed Labour?

I do have to admit that if people were taught more about cooperatives, money management, and the such, everyone but rentseekers, but you are right, there's no justification for saying "that man didn't provide labour to the orchard, so he doesn't deserve anthing, screw the fact he paid for it."

James Watson
James Watson

Venezuela
mixed-market
Pick one.

Adam Reyes
Adam Reyes

hahaha epic meme le upboat XDD

Joshua Adams
Joshua Adams

Socialism isn't anything a government does.

That's just because we had a general labor shortage that made capitalists pay employees according to how much profit was made.

William Ward
William Ward

means of production
A fucking Tablet and printer are now means of production....the outcome of the trade is defined by the voluntary interactions of both parties according to their time preference and subjective values.

As Thomas Sowell would say wealth isn't created until workers and employers reconcile their conflicting claims.

Brayden Thompson
Brayden Thompson

inb4 LE NO TROO SGOTSMAN XDDDDDD
There are people on this board who think there's no difference between Pol Pot and fucking Salvador Allende.

John Reyes
John Reyes

... I am trying to think who is more corrupt than Mugabe, the hole in one wonder, and Chavez.

Austin Carter
Austin Carter

One got enough power to kill people while the other one just got enough power to starve them?

Jaxson Butler
Jaxson Butler

state
not workers

Blake Lewis
Blake Lewis

What utter bullshit

Capitalists hierarchies require that individuals give themselves up to their firms or their states. Read Rousseau or Stirner or Bookchin, there is a long tradition of libertarian/individualist socialist thinkers.
pic related.

Joseph Edwards
Joseph Edwards

Free market doesn't cater to people that don't understand what goods, supplies, needs, demands, and profits are.
Nobody is that stupid. You DON'T need a government to moderate all money and everything else that happens. The government is literally, 100%, as trustworthy as everyone else.
Would you believe a farmer that claims he can do any snowboardingtrick without failure, even though he has never snowboarded, or read about snowboarding?
Would you trust your government to tell you how to spend your money, aka your things; money you rightfully own, and earned? Would you trust a government worker to do your job as well your own? Do you trust that the government will always use your tax money honestly, and how they promised they would?
What do the farmer and the government official have in common? They're both 100% human. Human is flawed.
Go watch the Stanford prison study by Philip zimbardo, and see how the average homosapiens act when they have a role that has control. It's natural for people to be that way.
Socialism and communism was written before modern psychology and many other educational discoveries. It's an outdated idea. Even theoretically, psychology proves communism to be incorrect. It doesn't even work on paper.

Leo Perez
Leo Perez

The point is to completely resolve the conflict by making workers the employers. The means of production must become owned by the workers who use them.

Wyatt Ramirez
Wyatt Ramirez

Good criticism.
what is market socialism
what is decentralized socialism

Joseph Butler
Joseph Butler

What utter bullshit
Excellent rebuttal, you really showed him.

libertarian socialism
mfw

Christian Stewart
Christian Stewart

Why? What's stopping you from making your own business, not using anyone's business, or simply just not doing anything, period? What is forcing you to enter into any hierarchy which you do not wish to be part of?

Noah Campbell
Noah Campbell

what is arpanet
what is literally anything made before capitalism
what are vaccines
who is Nicola Tesla?

Levi Moore
Levi Moore

The means of production must become owned by the workers who use them.
The owners also use them. They put them there. They provided an environment for the workers to even be workers.

That is their labor. They are entitled to the fruits of their labor, same as the workers.

You're economically illiterate.

Josiah Barnes
Josiah Barnes

Debt isn't always equivalent to failure. Ceausescu tried to pay off all of his country's debt, and it turned Romania into one of the shittiest countries in Europe.

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez

what is arpanet
there's no profit incentive in the Military Industrial complex
what are vaccines
there's no profit motive in the pharmaceutical industry

what is literally anything made before capitalism
So, back when humans were primarily nomads? Sweet.

who is Nicola Tesla?
Some dude who peed in jars.

Jason Bell
Jason Bell

There are socialist communities. Look up Mondragon or Israeli kibbutzim.

Brayden Hall
Brayden Hall

What is forcing you to enter into any hierarchy which you do not wish to be part of?
For one I must always be a part of a state, which is a capitalist hierarchy. Two, I need money and food to live, so I must sell my labor for a wage to do so. And if too many people try to work in cooperatives, you can count on the capitalists crushing this competition.

Levi Lewis
Levi Lewis

Nice strawman

Elijah Adams
Elijah Adams

le not real socialism strawman
being this thick-headed

Leo Roberts
Leo Roberts

the income tax should really not touch anyone who is currently unable to hire a tax manager, and a tax system should be so simple and straightforward
This is why the LDP argued for a 20% flat tax. I don't like it because I'd like to see tax aid in social mobility rather than halt it. Thus, I don't want to tax poor people, exactly what's the point when they're expected to get it back via an overly complicated system of tax returns?

it still hits the low middle class much harder than the high middle class
Seems almost deliberate, the lower middle class are getting the sledgehammer in the face. I'm not sure why both sides of bipartisan politics hates the middle class, perhaps it's a stress test to determine if you're worthy of the next level or deserve to be back down with the disposable income earners who actually think investment is a waste of time.

no protectionist intent
Why not? What responsibility do Australian politicians have for foreign interests? If I were to become a politician, it'd be the Australian people who elect me and it'd be the Australian people that I'm responsible for. Why not protect Australian interests? Of course I'd implement tariffs with protectionism ideals, call me a Nazi, I dare you.

That said, what do you mean demurrage failed Labour?
They planned a massive deficit and liberals abused that via negative campaigning, labor literally had to lie to get them back and liberal used their lie. It's actually still to be determined if it has failed Labor (no u to refer to the Australian Labor Party), but it probably has. They're attempting to dramatize this election by forcing recounts of close liberal seats.

Unfortunately, labor have a pretty much assured youth female vote plus a 20% of male cucks, both these groups absolutely resist any sort of campaigning. They're fairly low intelligence voters.

Also, are you Australian? I'm getting a vibe.

Adam Garcia
Adam Garcia

here's your fucking rebuttal.

Freedom is the freedom of autonomy. Under systems like the one in rojava, where there is a coop based economy and directly democratic municipalities are the base of power, people can actually control the places they work at and their environment at large as well as the laws they live under. This is impossible under capitalism, there is no autonomy, decisions are being made which effect me that I have no say it. It is not individualistic.

Isaac Hernandez
Isaac Hernandez

You're thinking of totalitarianism. There are non-totalitarian socialist systems, and many staunchly anti-socialist systems with many totalitarian elements.

Lucas Flores
Lucas Flores

For one I must always be a part of a state, which is a capitalist hierarchy.
And there are no socialist or communist states because "muh no true communism/socialism"? K.

Two, I need money and food to live, so I must sell my labor for a wage to do so.
You're completely free to not work and rely on charity/welfare.

And if too many people try to work in cooperatives, you can count on the capitalists crushing this competition.
Unless they're the cooperatives officially sanctioned by the state, who shelter and help grow monopolies with the aid of legal force. States and cooperatives that develop a policy towards collectivism and revolving door employment, and establishment of a special political class.

I.E- Socialism.

Jaxson Diaz
Jaxson Diaz

Two ideas that try to hide the problem by moving it to larger groups of councils because it recognizes centralization is retarded while being unaware you haven't actually solved the centralization issue.

Checked, and it's not an impossible strain of though. From the little I've read, it's essentially the philosophy of making contracts as a condition of continuing to live where you are. Basically, it posits it's entirely possible for you to seek lower economic output for the sake of agreed upon organizations by means of concensus decision making of independent individuals.

It suffers the same issue of being very difficult to implement one where it doesn't end up in coercion and a clique controlling the interpretation and enforcement of said agreements.

what is arpanet
One of multiple networks which were developed around the end of 20th century, with it winning out due to it's larger extend.

anything made before capitalism
Feudalistic, or Mercantile inefficiencies?

what are vaccines
A discovery made by a man who proceed to sell his treatment for smallpox. Most, if not all, vaccines made in the modern world are made with private investigation funds anyway.

who is Nicola Tesla?
And inventor who made a living from said inventions?

capitalist hierarchy
That's immediately proven wrong by the fact there are multiple states that aren't capitalistic. There's nothing to indicate or support states need be capitalistic hierarchies or that you need to be affected by them in any way. In fact, you have just pointed out the issue I was hinting at: such hierarchies as set things you must follow only exist through clearly uncapitalistic usage of government force.

Two, I need money and food to live, so I must sell my labor for a wage to do so.
False, plenty of people grow their own food, and I come from a family that enjoys keeping their own produce, meats, and fruits in easy reach, to the point I have a garden in my apartment.

Cameron Cooper
Cameron Cooper

it doesn't count when it's niggers
implying Marcos wasn't a right-wing despot propped up by the USA

Cameron Martinez
Cameron Martinez

Shhh...

Aaron Garcia
Aaron Garcia

here's your fucking rebuttal.
All I see are entry level prog memes.

Rojava
You mean northern Syria?

Aaron Thomas
Aaron Thomas

People have no right to steal communist pig

Justin Garcia
Justin Garcia

It suffers the same issue of being very difficult to implement one where it doesn't end up in coercion and a clique controlling the interpretation and enforcement of said agreements.

That issue goes back to what mentioned. Collectivism is indicative to hierarchies and classism.

Jordan Nguyen
Jordan Nguyen

It's immoral to steal- if you advocate theft you are immoral

Jeremiah Miller
Jeremiah Miller

Third place is Mobutu Sese Seko, having stolen 4-15 billion dollars from 1965-1997.
Second place is Ferdinand Marcos, having stolen 5-10 billion dollars from 1965-1986.
First place is Mohamed Suharto, having stolen between 15 and 35 BILLION DOLLARS between 1967-1998.

Mason Jenkins
Mason Jenkins

Allende didn't starve anybody. There were some food shortages, but that was about it. His administration dealt pretty effectively using the CyberSyn system to deal with logistical issues.

Evan Myers
Evan Myers

In capitalism, people are what they make of themselves. In socialism, people are allowed to violate others property rights and take their hard earned money if their own ventures fail.

Jeremiah Stewart
Jeremiah Stewart

And there are no socialist or communist states because "muh no true communism/socialism"? K.
I've considered going to Rojava, but there's something of a war going on there atm.

You're completely free to not work and rely on charity/welfare.
I'm just doing what's in my rational self interest, but the point is to change what that is for the better.

Unless they're the cooperatives officially sanctioned by the state, who shelter and help grow monopolies with the aid of legal force.
Or you could just outlaw capitalist firms, they you don't have that problem.

Oliver Edwards
Oliver Edwards

Rojava not existing
wew lad

Grayson Anderson
Grayson Anderson

A discovery made by a man who proceed to sell his treatment for smallpox. Most, if not all, vaccines made in the modern world are made with private investigation funds anyway.
He refused to patent his finding on the grounds that medicine belonged to everyone.

And inventor who made a living from said inventions?
Who died in poverty because he refused to be like Edison and make a fortune off of patents and copyright laws.

That's immediately proven wrong by the fact there are multiple states that aren't capitalistic
I believe you're referring to state capitalist systems run by leftist parties.

False, plenty of people grow their own food, and I come from a family that enjoys keeping their own produce, meats, and fruits in easy reach, to the point I have a garden in my apartment.
I require capital still to get the things I need to grow my own food.

Jaxon Walker
Jaxon Walker

Which produces enough to feed me, and perhaps a second person, if I ever wanted to grow a vagina and become vegan. Go out of the city, and you can be eating vegetable and chicken for the rest of your life if you manage even the smallest plot of land well. One of the few good things to come out of Cuba, urban gardens supply half or more of the food needs of the Cubans. If you wanted to, you could be independent, you simply prefer to live with the modern conveniences of not making your own food while at the same time bitching how you need to pay for said conveniences.

And if too many people try to work in cooperatives, you can count on the capitalists crushing this competition.
Most cooperatives I've seen fail have done so for two reasons:
1.) People were terrible at money management and ended up doing stupid things in the executive portion of the cooperatives.
2.) The free-riders grew too numerous and the social aspect of them didn't allow the cooperatives to shed them.

Cooperatives failing is an issue of education, not evil cabals, or otherwise well run cooperatives wouldn't be successful, while most cooperatives died in unceremonious manner.

when they're expected to get it back via an overly complicated system of tax returns
I agree completely, which is why the Negative rate income tax appeals so much to me.

Seems almost deliberate
It mostly is. High middle class considers them plebeians, while poor people treat them as though they are traitors of sorts for not staying poor and still living amongst them, so both groups have no qualms in policies that punish them most. Or so is my theory.

call me a Nazi, I dare you.
You are nothing more than a spineless market socialist :^)

But in all seriousness, reciprocity. Making it unduly difficult to trade with other countries because they start tariff wars helps no one in the end. I am no globalist, but more of a Hoppian in terms of international trade.

Benjamin Flores
Benjamin Flores

All I see are entry level prog memes.
Which you seem to have no argument against.

Carter Harris
Carter Harris

I've considered going to Rojava
Again, you mean northern Syria?

I'm just doing what's in my rational self interest, but the point is to change what that is for the better.
That's awfully individualist and objectivist of you

Or you could just outlaw capitalist firms, they you don't have that problem.
Right, and then the "non-capitalist" firms left, totally won't be the legal monopoly I just described.

Idiot.

I didn't say it didn't exist, I said it was Northern Syria.

Hunter Harris
Hunter Harris

He refused to patent his finding on the grounds that medicine belonged to everyone.
Yet he still successfully sold it for profit. Stop changing the goal posts.

Who died in poverty because he refused to be like Edison and make a fortune off of patents and copyright laws.
Also because he had numerous untreated mental illnesses that likely prevented him from taking care of himself properly. Hence, again, jar pisser.

I believe you're referring to state capitalist systems run by leftist parties.
No, he's referring to socialist and communist states that self identify and socialist and communist.

I require capital still to get the things I need to grow my own food.
Capital as in money? No. Capital as in "the inherent cost that comes with the fact that nothing is free and everything has to come from somewhere"? Yes.

Luckily, again, there are charities to take care of helpless progs like yourself.

Which you seem to have no argument against.
Because there's no argument being presented.

Anime pictures with references to communism are not an arguments. You are autistic.

Ryan Torres
Ryan Torres

1.) People were terrible at money management and ended up doing stupid things in the executive portion of the cooperatives.
2.) The free-riders grew too numerous and the social aspect of them didn't allow the cooperatives to shed them.
t. someone who's never looked at empirical evidence
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Projects/BPEA/1995-micro/1995_bpeamicro_craig.PDF
http://www.uk.coop/resources/what-do-we-really-know-about-worker-co-operatives
Worker co-ops are just as productive and last just as long as capitalist enterprises.

Brandon Nelson
Brandon Nelson

and you think liberals would accomplish shit without the progress that allows them their freedom of speech?
when people stops focusing/struggling on having something to eat each day they start to ask for stupid shit

James Sanders
James Sanders

We have that, it's called being self-employed. The relationship between owner and employee may vary from small to big business but at the end of the day it's a necessary relationship based on; risk, values, time preference and myriad of other factors. Or else worker co-operatives would be the rule rather than the exception.

Aaron Nguyen
Aaron Nguyen

That's awfully individualist and objectivist of you
Egoism actually.

Right, and then the "non-capitalist" firms left, totally won't be the legal monopoly I just described.
It won't be a monopoly because there'd be no extra restrictions on firms entering the market so long as they are a co-op. Think of it like outlawing ponzi schemes. Does that make things less competitive?

Nolan Walker
Nolan Walker

And that's isn't really demurrage. Demurrage is a payment tied to the money, which loses it's value through time unless you pay a certain amount. This make the velocity of money, investments, and tax payments occur quite rapidly, look up something called Freigold and the theory behind it (and the Wörgl Experiment that showed it work in practice).

Pretty much, because a million individuals is simply impossible to manage and imagine, but large blocks of people with one defining feature is very easy to do so.

I don't see where you see advocating thievery anywhere in my post.

The completely disappearance of industry, an increase of poverty beyond the 65% level, and Weimar republic levels of inflation to not crash even further is your idea of effective problem solving? CyberSyn was an amazing demonstration of what technocracy can do, but it also showed what it can: replace the price signaling inherent to capitalism.

He refused to patent his finding on the grounds that medicine belonged to everyone.
Are you talking about the Polio vaccine? Because he still sold it. It's production, improvement, and the rest were funded by that money he made selling it. Or do you think Musk's opening his patents now means he doesn't make money of the Tesla cars?

Who died in poverty because he refused to be like Edison and make a fortune off of patents and copyright laws.
He died in poverty because he was a foreigner who knew little of laws (or he would have done better in his lawsuits to get money of Edison, who is the biggest Jew ever this side of the Goyim), and whose plans weren't meant for economic purposes. It's telling how every one of his inventions made someone else rich, and how he sued pretty much all of them.

I believe you're referring to state capitalist systems run by leftist parties.
Ah, the no true scotman returns. North Korea says hello, but this gif has you covered .

Nathaniel Garcia
Nathaniel Garcia

ifunny

Tyler Robinson
Tyler Robinson

20 year old paper using data from the 70s
Paper about coops on a coop website that says coops are awesome

Empiricism is allergic to bias and has a shelf life, home slice.

Levi Peterson
Levi Peterson

I require capital still to get the things I need to grow my own food.
Or, you know, just get them from nature and go from there. You wouldn't be the first man to grow wild plants on his house and feed off them.

... Did you just stop reading there and not read the sentence just after that which deals exactly with that?

Who pays for the wikihow illustrations? I'm not kidding, I'm sincerely curious why do all of them have an illustration.

Hunter Sanchez
Hunter Sanchez

The simplest definition of capitalism is just a relatively unregulated market. There is no "before capitalism" as the first trades would have been done without regulation.

Hunter James
Hunter James

Quoting Stirner, an individualist anarchist, in defense of collectivism and coops
You are a special kind of autist.

It won't be a monopoly because there'd be no extra restrictions on firms entering the market so long as they are a co-op.
And what exactly enforces this?

Think of it like outlawing ponzi schemes.
You do realize ponzi schemes are technically coops, right? Their profit hierarchy is dependent on collectivism.

Lucas Torres
Lucas Torres

Yet he still successfully sold it for profit.
Which he could also do in market socialism. What would have been unique to capitalism is if he patented it.

No, he's referring to socialist and communist states that self identify and socialist and communist.
And North Korea is totally democratic because it's in their name, amirite?

Capital as in "the inherent cost that comes with the fact that nothing is free and everything has to come from somewhere"? Yes.
It used to be that you could homestead on a frontier. But regardless, what capitalism is preventing me from doing is alienating me from my labor. I can't just work in the field I want AND control what happens to the product of my labor AND the environment I work in. It's not possible in capitalism because the capitalist is in control, I am completely subjected to the whims of the owner in any firm I might work in.

Because there's no argument being presented.
Ok Stefan.

Anime pictures with references to communism are not an arguments.
Anime
Wew. Unless you're one of those all cartoons are anime autists you can fuck off.

Luke Lee
Luke Lee

It's not necessary for the very reason co-ops exist. The reason they are not the dominant mode of production is because we live in a legal framework for capitalism that encourages the accumulation of capital and thus more capitalists ventures.

Thomas Brooks
Thomas Brooks

I understand, you lose temporarily for the prospect of future gain. My issue with labor is that we've already done this by spending money on education: it's easy to get an apprenticeship and through hecs/help there are no longer any economic boundaries to getting a degree. Trying to spend more money on qualifications is just cranking a solution that has already done its job to 11. It's wasteful.

What they're missing is they don't realise that the youth isn't uneducated or unqualified, that's a media fallacy, it's closer that no one wants to hire the youth and that's the problem that confounds youth unemployment which will have serious consequences if left unsolved for 10 years and our currently 20 somethings become 30 somethings who are still underemployed.

My taxation idea has zero effect on this, companies essentially pay more or less wages based on the situation, but it's the problem labor are ignorant about, greens want to go the opposite direction and liberals don't have any good solutions.

Just researched the worgl experiment, it has parallels with the PATH program of the liberals to incentive employment. It's basically reminding employers that new graduates will work for slave labour if it means the prospects of a better career later, the magic of worgl and PATH is when money becomes inconsequential.

And then the labor party say it's slave labour and pretend to be on the side of the unemployed youth. Disgusting.

I wish more under 30s would either take a less naive stance or drop their apathy for politics and realise how much this effects them.

Oliver Kelly
Oliver Kelly

Quoting Stirner, an individualist anarchist, in defense of collectivism and coops
Stirner wasn't an anarchist in the sense he wasn't a part of any anarchy movement, and he started a co-op himself.

And what exactly enforces this?
The state, just like they do now for all property laws.

You do realize ponzi schemes are technically coops, right?
No, co-ops are about cooperation and equal ownership. If a ponzi scheme was a co-op then the new members could just vote to end the kickbacks.

having ideology this pure
Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production. If that was your definition, then I guess you'd have nothing against market socialism.

Jonathan Williams
Jonathan Williams

20 year old paper using data from the 70s
Modes of production don't change all that much.

Empiricism is allergic to bias and has a shelf life, home slice.
Nobody does research into co-ops but those interested in them. If other good papers existed, I'd give them to you.

Carter Reed
Carter Reed

What?! Patents exist only thanks to government fiat, and copyright aims to incite the creation of more art by allowing the artist to profit. Why would market socialism, an ideology which seeks to try to make a price signalling system be in place while still being socialist, would oppose copyrights for... reasons?

I can't just work in the field I want AND control what happens to the product of my labor AND the environment I work in. It's not possible in capitalism because the capitalist is in control, I am completely subjected to the whims of the owner in any firm I might work in.
Sounds more that what is stopping you is your lack of skill in that field. My grandfather was a fish salesman when he was a kid, but he always wanted to be a mechanic. Rather than worrying capitalistic forces would force him to remain a fish salesman forever, he simply worked to learn how to be a mechanic, open his own shop, and now we own a chain of them across the country. There's literally nothing stopping you from doing whatever you want but limitations of scarcity brought about the fact resources are scarces and no amount of Star Trek magic 3D printer can solve that. Sadly. You are the man decrying nature forces you to hunt your food.

You seem to be under the very wrong believe Co-op aren't inherently capitalistic. Mondragon nearly had a revolt when someone suggested cutting the wages of the member of the cooperative vs the wages of the workers hired by it.

... I keep reading your post and I don't see how any of that relates to anything we have spoken before, the worgl experiment, or anything in particular. I'll go take a piss and try to figure out when I come back.

Yeah, why would he have anything against a system that would try to redistribute his efforts to other individuals wherever he wants to or not.

Jose Price
Jose Price

complete disappearance of industry
poverty above 65%
source?

Leo Hernandez
Leo Hernandez

Which he could also do in market socialism.
But he didn't.

What would have been unique to capitalism is if he patented it.
But he didn't.

And North Korea is totally democratic because it's in their name, amirite?
Depends- are you really going to claim North Korea is an example of a capitalist state?

It used to be that you could homestead on a frontier.
You still can. People do it all the time. You're just lazy.

what capitalism is preventing me from doing is alienating me from my labor. I can't just work in the field I want AND control what happens to the product of my labor AND the environment I work in. It's not possible in capitalism because the capitalist is in control, I am completely subjected to the whims of the owner in any firm I might work in.

What makes you think you're entitled to any of that?
Why is the capitalist, who's labor created the firm, not entitled to the fruits of said labor?
Why is your labor inherently more important than his?

Because there's no argument being presented.
Ok Stefan.
If you didn't agree with me, you'd be defining the alleged arguments instead of deflecting.
You're deflecting.
They're not arguments.
Case closed.

Unless you're one of those all cartoons are anime autists you can fuck off.
Pic related is literally you posting an anime picture with said reference.

You know there are ID's on this board, right?

Easton Gutierrez
Easton Gutierrez

Or, you know, just get them from nature and go from there. You wouldn't be the first man to grow wild plants on his house and feed off them.
And if I wanted I could just kill myself and there'd be no problem at all. The point is I'm trying to make a reasonable choice here, and capitalism has taken all the reasonable ones. I intend to change that.

Or, you know, just get them from nature and go from there. You wouldn't be the first man to grow wild plants on his house and feed off them.

... Did you just stop reading there and not read the sentence just after that which deals exactly with that?
Except its not just an issue of education, if our laws were built for easy co-op start ups there'd be more of them.

Evan Thomas
Evan Thomas

A lot of it doesn't, because the worgl experiment from my quick reading isn't about taxation, it was about creating employment with IOUs. Care to enlighten me if I'm wrong?

It's similar to the PATH program, which is essentially skilled internships at well below the minimum wage, because it too creates (future) employment by removing money from the equation.

Demurre (again from preliminary reading) is essentially accepting a short term loss for long term gain, which is what the Australian labor government is all about... Perpetually... So there is never any gain.

It's difficult to respond intelligently when I'm riffing off all these new ideas and terms.

Oliver Ward
Oliver Ward

Stirner wasn't an anarchist in the sense he wasn't a part of any anarchy movement
I already told you once to stop shifting the goal posts
Stop shifting the goal posts.

One's status as an anarchist is not determined by membership to a larger group. Stirner was an individualist anarchist.

The state, just like they do now for all property laws.
That state you claim is inherently capitalistic?

No, co-ops are about cooperation and equal ownership.
Sounds like exactly the kind of thing a ponzi scheme is told as.

If a ponzi scheme was a co-op then the new members could just vote to end the kickbacks.
Unless they decide they want the kickbacks as well, as they advance higher in the collectivist hierarchy.

Modes of production don't change all that much.
Right, and there are no robots where humans once worked in the assembly line of your closest automobile manufacturing plant, and people can't 3D print fucking guns and other products in their homes.

If other good papers existed, I'd give them to you.
How are you going to be unable to demonstrate any form of replicability with findings and still claim empiricism? What the fuck are you on?

Jose Hall
Jose Hall

What?! Patents exist only thanks to government fiat, and copyright aims to incite the creation of more art by allowing the artist to profit.Why would market socialism, an ideology which seeks to try to make a price signalling system be in place while still being socialist, would oppose copyrights for... reasons?
That's not what market socialism is. Market socialism is when an economy has a free market but no private ownership of the means of production. Meaning all property is personal property. Since Patents and copyrights let you own something without using it, they would be outlawed.

Rather than worrying capitalistic forces would force him to remain a fish salesman forever, he simply worked to learn how to be a mechanic, open his own shop, and now we own a chain of them across the country.
Not everyone can do that, and while there is a chance that I can do what I open my own business or whatever and own the products of my own labor, I don't want it to be up to chance. That's the whole point. I will still do everything I can for my own self interest, and if I can it will mean owning the product of my own labor, but it also means advocating for socialism.

You seem to be under the very wrong believe Co-op aren't inherently capitalistic
They retain capitalist features because we live in capitalism. When private property ceases to exist they will be purely cooperative and co-ops won't even be able to hire non-owning workers.

Yeah, why would he have anything against a system that would try to redistribute his efforts to other individuals wherever he wants to or not.
Except that wouldn't happen in market socialism.

Luke Scott
Luke Scott

In his defense, he isn't wrong, well run coops are generally just as effective as a normal firm, he's just an idiot who doesn't realize coops aren't some magical council of economic prosperity, it's just a company where there are more owners and more people are involved in guiding the company. As a distributist, I love coops, but see no reason why they should be force to be the only ones that can exist.

Any chilean anons around? You were the guys linking to state statistics that went back to the 60's, I can't seem to find them in my history.

Spain shows that clearly not true. When mondragon was started, there were hundreds, possibly thousands, of co-ops being made. Very few of them survive. The ones that survive, like Mondragon, are very successful and wealthy and aren't really politically connected to any large degree. If thousands were created, dozens survived, and the laws regarding them haven't change, what makes you think it's a matter of laws that fuck over them while others under those very same laws are amongst the largest companies in Spain?

Similar discordances in your theory appear in pretty much everywhere.

That's not the worgl experiment at all. The worgl experiment tried using the theory of Friegold to create a currency with an inbuilt rate of demurrage equal to a loss of value of 1/12 per month, with the possibility of buying special stamps to make said bill still have it's original value. This made it so not buying, investing, or paying your taxes would result in a net loss, and therefore the velocity of money increased enormously, to the point Worgl was able to reverse and even improve from the economic damage the great depression had caused upon it.

Demurrage, in the context of currency, is that: a price you place upon people holding money. The longer you hold it, the less it's worth.

Xavier Adams
Xavier Adams

And if I wanted I could just kill myself and there'd be no problem at all.
Good idea.

The point is I'm trying to make a reasonable choice here, and capitalism has taken all the reasonable ones.
Reasonable, to you. I intend to change that.
Not necessarily to other people, but I'm sure you think you know what's best for them too.
After all, this is all about you.

if our laws were built for easy co-op start ups there'd be more of them.
If coops were more efficient and productive than private businesses and firms, you wouldn't need a legal monopoly in the form special laws to protect them from market forces. A legal monopoly dependent on a state... that you claim is inherently capitalist.

Adam Torres
Adam Torres

Why is capitalism better than socialism?

Because capitalism rewards hard work and innovation and punishes laziness, socialism punishes hard work and subsidizes laziness.

Guess which leads to greater prosperity in the long run

Daniel Cooper
Daniel Cooper

But he didn't.
Because he couldn't

But he didn't.
You do realize I was making a hypothetical comparison, right?

Depends- are you really going to claim North Korea is an example of a capitalist state?
They have a very large private sector actually.

You still can. People do it all the time. You're just lazy.
I don't have the money for a plane ticket to alaska, and I would rather not like to go.

What makes you think you're entitled to any of that?
Why is the capitalist, who's labor created the firm, not entitled to the fruits of said labor?
Why is your labor inherently more important than his?
Entitlement and right don't exist. It is in my self interest to advocate for this, so I shall. It is in my self interest to be free, so I shall advocate for that too, I only find it hypocritical that you think I'm free now when it is unreasonable for me have control over my life.

They're not arguments.
Your argument was that ALL forms of communism/socialism are collectivist in nature, putting the good or the whole people above the individual. I postulated this is untrue because libertarian socialism, for example, the municipal liberterianism in Rojava, give me more freedom and more power over my own life than under capitalism.

Pic related is literally you posting an anime picture with said reference.
You were referencing the pic on the post we were discussing, the one that mentioned communism.

Ryan Sanchez
Ryan Sanchez

free market
no private ownership of the means of production
Mutually exclusive concepts.

Meaning all property is personal property.
You mean private property, as private property is not inherently dependent on a state, despite claims to the contrary?

I don't want it to be up to chance
You are never not up to chance.
The universe is in a constant state of flux, nothing is certain.

When private property ceases to exist they will be purely cooperative and co-ops won't even be able to hire non-owning workers.
So, never, since private property will exist so long as humans exist, because they do rationally and voluntarily choose to recognize and defend private property?

well run coops are generally just as effective as a normal firm
Aggregately, normal firms are arguably more effective. That doesn't mean coops can't be run effectively, but "too many cooks spoil the broth" is as true with businesses as it is with military command structures and broth.

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