Captain America...

Captain America, because you killed a dozen people while stopping the theft of a bioweapon that would have killed millions, we're very upset. Let me show a chart about how 73 people died during an alien invasion, which means slightly more than who die of smoking per hour and is something that you and superheroes are in no way responsible for. Here's another chart about Sokovia, where you saved billions and failed to save 260 or so. While Stark was responsible for this kind of, it was in his capacity as an inventor and not a superhero. This is greatly disappointing to us and indicates that the rules must change.

I'm sorry

The accords were stupid, and a poorly written plot device.

They should have found another reason to split the avengers into two sides. But, then they couldn't blow up the UN building and gotten Black Panther involved.

>Let me show a chart about how 73 people died during an alien invasion, which means slightly more than who die of smoking per hour and is something that you and superheroes are in no way responsible for.
I refuse to believe those numbers were anything nut deaths directly caused by the Avengers. Both because we're shown stuff like Hulk knocking debris onto people, and because it's absolutely impossible the total death count was that low.

>While Stark was responsible for this kind of
And Wanda and Bruce.

There's also South Africa, where Wanda intentionally sent Bruce to attack a city.

Plus setting the precedent of letting a private army trample over international law just because they "know better" is insane.

The worst part of that is that Tony fucking Stark decides that this is reasonable enough to be a 'middle ground' between the two. I don't care if he has PTSD, that doesn't mean that he would think this is somehow reasonable enough to agree to.

How is it not a reasonable middle ground? For YEARS people were saying that if this were what the SRA was, that it would be totally reasonable and that there'd be nothing to fight over.

Blame Disney for the low death count

It was probably deaths they themselves were responsible for rather than random chitrari fire or gravity and being in Sokovia.

Although the Hulk in South Africa thing was pretty far fetched, although it could be cited as Tony busting his ass trying to contain the Hulk which is more pro accords than not.

If they switched out New York with the battle in South Africa, they would've had a point. But in the end it was simply a bad plot device really.

Did it fly over your head that people who forced the accords have agendas?

Reason for Cap not signing in the movie. Its not a bad plot device. This would most likely happen in any case.

You could fix this shit if it was explicitly a bullshit power grab.

The death tolls were so absurdly low.

Ross and the other pencil pushers cared more about using the avengers as assets than collateral damage

No, but it would have been nice if someone who was anti-accords at least pointed out that holding the avengers responsible for the people they've failed to save is ridiculous.

> saved billions and failed to save 260 or so
The biggest flaw of CW is that no one ever brings it up.

I hope someone shouts this at Zemo at some point in between punching him in the face

The bit I was shaking my head at most was the clip of the chitaori, literally no one in that room had anything to do with the beginning of the invasion, yea the avengers brought loki in and they were pitched against each other, but if they didnt he would have just started the invasion anyway, its kind of hilarious that the general just brushes off the fact that the officials opted to nuke the city and that somehow its the avengers who were fucking shit up

>"YOU'RE NOT JUST A STINKING HYPOCRITE"
>punch
>"WHO PUT EVEN MORE PEOPLE"
>punch
>"THROUGH THE SAME PAIN"
>punch
>"YOU SUFFERED"
>punch
>"BUT YOU'RE JUST BITTER"
>punch
>"THAT OUT OF THE LITERAL *BILLIONS* THEY'VE SAVED
>punch
>"YOUR FAMILY"
>punch
>"WHO ARE ROLLING IN THEIR GRAVES BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU DID IN THEIR MEMORY"
>Zemo starts to cry
>"WEREN'T AMONGST THEM."

>the officials opted to nuke the city and that somehow its the avengers who were fucking shit up

fucking thank you! The people who would have been a part of that stupid oversight and were already a part of an established group meant for such oversight were absolutely willing to sacrifice WAY more people and the Avengers prevented that!

If the fact that Stark created Ultron is public knowledge, then I think Zemo was fully justified in being pissed about what happened to his family. But I don't remember enough about AoU to remember if that ever got out, and I'm under the distinct impression it didn't.

This is honestly a complaint I have for just about everything Marvel makers - its citizens are judgmental assholes and shitty human beings. From the protesters turning on Ms. Marvel at the end of the gentrification story line, to all of the racism allegories for the X-Men that make NO SENSE in a universe with other superheroes, it feels like every story is trying to get across the same message of how the heroes are morally upstanding for protecting a world that hates and fears them, and I have yet to see a writer pull it off in a convincing way.

>Zemo looks them in the eyes
>"If you heroes didn't exist there wouldn't have been an alien invasion, there wouldn't have been machine man that rob me of my family."
>"If the world had none of you, would be super "heroes", I would have lived in peace with my family, the world would have kept turning and we wouldn't be huddling in fear of the next major catastrophe your existence will bring to the world."
>"What I did in their memory was open your eyes to the monsters you are to the world."
>"This world would have been a better place if you never existed"

The accords are unreasonable in this aspect on purpose, and it's hardly unrealistic. The world at large, especially the politicians and the elite who run things, are illogical and often hysterical. Any number above 0 civilians killed by the good guys means those good guys are bad.

Tony knew it was bullshit, but wanted to get ahead of it before it got worse and worse (as it did throughout the movie). Not that I'm taking his side, but, it makes his perspective a little more sensible.

It's not so simple as "fuck off, we're superheroes its not our fault". I mean, ideally it is, but the world isn't going to accept that, ie Zemo, and there's tons of people like Zemo out there that blame the Avengers. Reminder that Marvel citizens are ungrateful fuckheads.

I mean, look at when shit like this happens in real life, some random hospital in the middle of Who-gives-a-fuck-istan gets annihilated while some drone is aiming at a terrorist. The approval rating for people responsible for these kinds of things couldn't be much lower, and the reputation of the US in the global community is shit because of things like that.

Go ahead and slap some stars and red white and blue on the guy responsible for killing a bunch of kids in a hospital, it doesn't matter if it's on accident, every millenial in every college is going to call for his arrest if not his outright execution.

Dear Secretary of State Thaddeus Ross;

In your decades long hunt for the Hulk you wasted billions of tax dollars, thousands of soldiers' lives and probably caused tens of thousands of civilan casualties.

So, please, shut the fuck up!

BTW: It takes a redhead in black spandex to tame the Hulk, just sayin'.

When superheroes are the cause of more good things than bad then it's stupid.

Only Avengers who fucked up big time are Tony and Wanda but Wanda is lucky the Hulk didn’t do any major damage or killed anyone, Tony has blood on his hand, was gonna drop Sokovia full of people if Cap didn’t tell him it was a shit idea, and is now making the law with the accords and is in the top with Ross who is another man with blood on his hands and incompetent.

Yeah the accords are stupid in hindsight

Am I the only one that thinks it's weird that everyone thought Ultron's plan would wipe out that many people? I mean, the people on the chunk of land would be fucked obviously, and it might cause some damage to the surrounding countries, but come on - the meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs was 6 miles across, going 70,000 mph, and probably made up of stone and iron. That chunk of land was maybe half that size, much less dense, and going nowhere NEAR that fast.

>- its citizens are judgmental assholes and shitty human beings.
sounds like real life

It had a generator payload with it and his plan was to fire it back at 100,000 mph once it reach ideal height.

Just curious, but when the Avengers bust up a Hydra base with a basement full of alien technology research do they just not tell anybody about it and leave it open to the public?

If they gave us a better idea of whats in the Accords besides just "Paperwork" and "Red Tape"

Then perhaps a better argument could be made in their favor

Civil war is just not the same without the Mutant Registration Act, is it Sup Forums?

A real fair setting of that would have been very boring with no fighting. Realistically they would have all just signed it and moved on. Cap was willing to work with Shield when they were doing bad shit with that mindset of "better to have one hand on the wheel"
Honestly things escalated because of Bucky, remove that plot point and it wouldn't been anything big.
Without Zemo's plot Cap would have likely warm up and signed the accords and Avengers would go on missions until the government(s) did do something stupid and just fight back then.

Honestly if you really think about it, most if not all of the Avengers are shitty people and its not hard to see why people dislike them in their universe

>Tony started a whole new arms race and created a killer AI

>Steve helped a "former" terrorist/assassin

>Wanda aided a genocidal AI and caused the Hulk to chimp out in Africa

>Widow was a former assassin, and a whistleblower that shut down an entire government agency

>Banner beside the whole Hulk thing also helped create a killer AI

The generator payload would need to be thousands of times bigger than a modern nuke, and there is no fucking way they could accelerate that much mass up to 100,000 mph before it hit the ground (and any attempt to TRY would cause a huge amount of it to burn up/fall off before impact).

I still call bullshit.

Thor?

>"There wouldn't have been an alien invasion? Where did you do your research on the invasion, a conspiracy site? They came for a weapon that arrived on our world long before you were born. They were lead by a madman who only wanted a throne, and saw a people without the means to defend themselves, ripe for the conquering."
>"The man who's life you tried to ruin was fully willing to sacrifice himself to destroy the weapon that was the catalyst for that madman's choosing of earth before he even knew of its presence here. Would you have achieved anything near what he did? You would have been shot by one of HYDRA's men before even reaching the cube."
>"You said you lived in peace with your family, but a military base belonging to a terrorist organization existed not even 100 miles from your home. They had weapons more dangerous than any you've ever picked up, and if you think the Avengers had never gotten rid of them then they would have been content to mind their own business, to never harm your family in their experiments, you're an even bigger fool than I thought possible."
>"What you did in their memory wasn't to open the world's eyes, it was for satisfaction. You weren't the one to kill the one that killed your family. You were in mourning and you saw them being hailed as heroes. You thought, 'How dare they enjoy happiness when I've lost everything? If I should suffer, so should they!' You were no different than a playground bully, angry at seeing the child across from you do better than you at the same tasks, who responds by tormenting them and saying that it's their fault for bragging."
>"Only, you're worse. You used the memories of your loved ones to forget the hypocricy of your actions. You did something that in life they never would have approved of. They're looking down upon you now, ashamed."
>"They never would have lived to see the fighting in the city if the heroes you reviled had never existed."
>"This world would have ended long before then."

If you really think about it and don't care about context, all people are shitty people.

It didn't bother me much. It was a more contained versuon of the comic which I thought worked quitr well. AoS has potential to work that angle of the accords better than the movies. Maybe in season 4

Ross was literally guilt tripping them. He was pressuring them to sign the accords, which was made to shut up countries complaining about US-based super heroes, so he can control the Avengers.

tldr: Accords made to shut up non-US countries; Ross/some other people want to control the Avengers through guilt-tripping

>"If you heroes didn't exist there wouldn't have been an alien invasion
"There absolutely would have, you stupid Sokovian bastard. It happened because two aliens made a deal: one wanted to get something left on Earth by another alien, and the other wanted to fuck up the planet because his big brother beat his ass. Ultron's on us, I'll admit that, but if we didn't exist your family would've died years sooner or lived as Loki's slaves!"

PUNCH!

Never said Joss was a good writer
Just sharing the crazy of it.
To split hairs the tessarac was discovered by ghost Loki and that was after getting kick out of the house. So if Thor was kick off to the Ice Planet or wasn't a spoiled brat that would have lead to a world where Thanos would not have been made aware of the Cube at least so soon anyway.
Also we will never know what would have happen to Hydra and their shadow takeover if Cap either didn't exist or lived out his lifetime rather than get iced

So maybe you aren't from the US, or maybe just don't have a good understanding of politics. That's fine, children watch these movies too.

A system does not have to be broken for politicians to try and fix it. There are countless examples of bureaucratic interference, lobbying efforts, and many other kinds of governmebtal inefficiency creating unnecessary or shortsighted issues for systems that already work fine, or for problems that don't exist. Right now the United States is caught up in one of the dumbest political fights ever, about transgendered bathroom usage, something no one cared about three months ago, but is now turning into a large scale states v. Feds legal battle. That kind of bullshit can become a legislative sideshow, so superheros saving people absolutely would as well.
It doesn't have to make sense, it just has to be scary enough that a couple career politicians make it their issue for a few months and suddenly relatively minor collateral damage becomes a fuge fucking problem.

Thor was what made them know where the cube was in the first place. If Loki didn't fall through the portal there wouldn't have been an avengers film.

Stop, smackdowns this hard are illegal!

Not having the 50 State Initiative cuts out a ton of the content too. The movie basically turns a world changing event into a 12-person kerfuffle.

Why don't the Avengers just go on strike and wait until the world begs for them back?

That is literally the best way to solve these shitty underappreciation problems. Either they really need you and will grovel to get you back on your terms, or you truly are expendable and its time to retire pleasantly.

Well for the racism in X-men, everyone else in the marvel universe with powers are isolated incidents were only one person is getting powers this way. With the mutants its an entire population that's growing and not all of them use their powers for good.

So why didn't Steve sign the accord and just refuse to do something they tell him to do if he doesn't want it? If the gubmen started doing something they didn't like, they could just fly off and forget about the whole legislation.

>Ultron isn't stopped by the Avengers, but sees that his plan killed far fewer than intended
"Welp, time to build a whole lot more of these, since normal humans can do precisely jack shit to me."

>You did something that in life they never would have approved of.
Zemo's wife married a guerrilla black ops killer.
For all we know she would have wanted exactly what he did. Hell some kids would want dad to avenge them.

You anons are retarded to think they are pure in all this

>and their shadow takeover
Their shadow takeover involved using gunships to wipe out around 1/7 of the world's population. Even if Zemo's family was spared, who's to say they would survive the ensuing mass global panic? The fact that they lived so close to a HYDRA base means that they would have been on the front lines of the ensuing chaos

both of you are clearly not underage
I'm sorry but these films are not made for people that like to think.

Well, when you consider that even one death on the part of the US military in wartime is made into a tragedy, subsequently prompting a decrease in public support for the war, the saved:casualty ratio does have better perspective

We're so squeamish towards loss of life in hostile areas that it doesn't matter how many you saved. If even one dies, was it really worth it? See also the media accounting of the Black Hawk Down incident.

Cap would never sit around like that just because people were being mean to them.

Captain America was stated as the major reason Hydra went the shadow ops way, that got beat to hard during the Red Skulls reign.
Also reread my post if Cap didn't get iced and just lived the internal takeover might not have happen.

Probably a matter of principle

>and that was after getting kick out of the house

And that was also after Thor tried to defend his own life and also bring Loki in alive. Because Asgardians had been to earth before (hence why the Norse people worshipped them and Asgardians call our world Midgard) they've known about us for literal ages, and thus Loki still would have known about an easy-to-conquer planet he could access. Besides, we don't know that he went straight to earth after jumping away from Thor. It's entirely possible that Thanos shared some leads on the Infinity Stones' potential locations with him and sent him on his way, offering him an army in exchange for an Infinity Stone and transport to the place he wanted to take over.

>there is no fucking way they could accelerate that much mass up to 100,000 mph before it hit the ground

That was what he was going to do thought until Bucky UN thing happen.

And if they hadn't gotten taken down during the Red Skull's reign, they would have taken over anyway and since they were allied with the Nazis, I'm pretty sure that is not a good thing.

The world would be a post-apocalyptic shitshow if it weren't for the existence of the Avengers. Zemo's actions had no moral ground.

>I don't care if he has PTSD, that doesn't mean that he would think this is somehow reasonable enough to agree to.
Tony is not a stable person. He seesaws between heroics motivated by guilt and a sense of obligation, and being an egotistical prick when he gets a swelled head from all the superheroing. We saw over the course of the movie a Stark who honestly thought he could live with following someone else's orders because he felt low transition to a Stark who is subtly contradicting the authority channels and mouthing off to them.

I feel like you are just doing metal gymnastics to avoid an awkward truth.
In avengers it's started Thanos found and saved Loki. If Loki never fell through the portal and was just jailed or even simpler Thor was never a brat we may have never seen the events unfold where the cube would be discovered by alien forces.

>Zemo's wife married a guerrilla black ops killer.
And you know that she knew this how?

Why is the idea that a loving family wouldn't be too keen on more good people being murdered in their name so hard for you to comprehend?

not him, but I understand that.

But How would someone really be able to tell that you're a mutant right off the bat if you don't say so.

You could easily lie and say that you gained your powers some other way

It's unfair to count Thor among the Avengers in this context because his whole story takes place regardless of anything humans do. He's just Super Alien God Hobo.

Plus he wasn't even in this dimension when Zemo's plan went off, and the plan was aimed at fucking with a bunch of humans whose only involvement in New York was saving it.

You have to do mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that causing even more death and destruction and also demolishing the world's best chance at fending off a future alien attack is at all justified. I'm not the one trying to defend the actions of a terrorist who went out of his way to intentionally endanger and kill people.

>they would have taken over anyway and since they were allied with the Nazis
In First Avenger Red Skull kills two of Hitlers men and rebels against the third reich before Cap even exists.
WW 2 happen as usual the Hydra and the Captain America part of First Avenger happen after WW 2.

That's such a fucking cop out
>hey Cap, this plan could potentially help tons of people and make The Avengers less feared but you could literally leave at any time and have the same consequences as you would if you had never signed in the first place
>nope nope Peggy said to stand up for what you believe in

It blows my mind people don't get this. They're a private military force and cap wanted no accountability. And people honestly think that in universe they should totally let him. Laws? Who cares...I like this guy.

That doesn't change the fact that they were an ends justifies the means group, and the ends for them was totalitarian control.

It could be argued that Wandas intent was that Hulk would cause a problem around the Quinjet and not the city

Of course that's a very bloody tenuous argument, but it's there

Why are you assuming they are a family like that?
There are neo Nazis, KKK, hate mongers and the like that live among us happy and positive loving to each other but would with passion enjoy seeing other people suffer and die.

We are given no narrative that would show Zemo's wife and child would be against his actions. You take that stance because it's needed to hurt Zemo's actions, to argue the ones that loved him didn't support it when for all we know they wish Zemo did more to make them suffer.

Doesn't stop Sup Forums from bitching about MoS

>citizens are judemental assholes

So marvel captured how people would react in real life. Sounds like they did their job.

It's because they're looking at it from the viewer's angle, where we know for a fact that the Avengers are good people with good intentions (even if they fuck up HARD sometimes).

From the angle of
>holy shit two dudes have wearable flying tanks and there's a supersoldier from World War II and spies and a god and a big green rage-monster running around AND THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY FEEL LIKE
the accords sound a lot more reasonable.

Isn't his whole line of thinking something like:
>if these heroes were regulated better and with even more resources than they have now we could save the world with much fewer casualties

>Not using the inhuman one

Ross wants to control Steve in a Tom of Finland fashion. Cap can't be doin wit dat, so here we are

My point was more that if Thor never came to earth events of the first Avenger film wouldn't happen.
And Zemo's plan was more aimed at the Birth of Ulrton that was a mix of mostly Tony's fault but with Thor's brothers actions as well.
Im not defending him at all, Im showing that if you pluck all the heroes stories like they never happen the escalation and super human arms race as it were would have never happen.
Im not even the user that started the Zemo green text bit. It's just a good point, remove the heroes and none of the story events escalate as we see.
My point is they might have been beat before they took the clock and dagger approach. Hell Zola's fate was due to them losing Cap to the iceberg.

>There are neo Nazis, KKK, hate mongers and the like that live among us happy and positive loving to each other but would with passion enjoy seeing other people suffer and die.

You're seriously assuming that a kid would be amongst this group? A kid who was a fan of Iron-Man?

The Accords was a plot by Ross to put the Avengers under his command. While all the blame goes to the utterly unaccountable UN.

I'd call for regulation too if you let out a giant green killing machine run around with no real way of putting it down. If The Avengers chose so, they could do tons of damage to the world.

I can understand why the idea of a whole group of people getting random powers could be upsetting, but kind of like what said, the distinction between mutant and non-mutant superhero seems waaaaaay too arbitrary for it to make sense. Unless mutants significantly outnumbered and/or outgunned all of the other supers and therefore represented a serious shift in the status quo, then it just feels like the writers are trying too hard to make them sympathetic.

>if you pluck all the heroes stories like they never happen the escalation and super human arms race as it were would have never happen.

That's only if you also remove the actions of the villains they were fighting, the goals of all of whom involved the deaths of a lot of innocent people

>My point is they might have been beat before they took the clock and dagger approach.

No, they weren't, otherwise there would have been no first Captain America movie. Even if the organization would have collapsed and failed without Cap's intervention, way more people would have died and then their weapons would have made their way into the black market, and caused all sorts of mayhem including a potential arms race.

This is why the whole, "The world would be better without the heroes who cause so much destruction trying to save it" argument never works. If they hadn't intervened, the city/neighborhood/country/world they were trying to protect would either be devastated or just destroyed.

Watchmen did it better desu.

I had a neighbor that didn't hate Blacks till she was raped by one, she now looks at them all as monsters because of one solitary instance. She is broken and now thinks that because of that rape and how that community of blacks responded to her that they are all worthless and has no pity when they suffer.
Let's say the kid lived and saw mom and dad get killed thanks to Iron Mans actions (or inaction)
You're seriously assuming that a kid would keep defending him after losing all he loved from (his view) Iron man and the Avengers?

whisked his brother away who was responsible for a world- better yet American homeland invasion, presumably to avoid consequences

I'm not sure if people are getting the point or missing it.
I'm going to assume the prior, but just in case yes the entire point is governments, armies and politicians in general are about skewing perspective to gain control. They don't care about fair or facts or any of those things, they care about putting the pressure on using law, numbers, authority and so on.

Cap's Avengers are all literally imprisoned in a super max facility for simply fighting back even though no one was really hurt except for Rhodey but that doesn't count since Vision was the one who paralyzed him to get technical. This sort of thing happens all the time, I'm surprised people here are surprised. A few years ago a discussion about SOPA was streamed and we all saw how power was thrown around LIVE.

It's not directly addressed but if you think about how Cap's actions dismantled SHIELD and HYDRA who have power and security well above most organizations this wasn't about Justice, this was about getting Cap, Widow, Thor and Hulk on a leash so they can point their efforts to people they don't like and away from things they don't want anyone knowing about. Just because these people aren't HYDRA doesn't mean they're clean.

>says the guy who created the fucking Hulk and who turns himself into an even worse Hulk who also bursts into atomic flames and spreads radiation around


What's the civilian/military death toll from the Hulk films?

>That's only if you also remove the actions of the villains they were fighting, the goals of all of whom involved the deaths of a lot of innocent people
Only one that has any good weight to that is Red Skull/Hydra
The rest? Not so much
>If they hadn't intervened, the city/neighborhood/country/world they were trying to protect would either be devastated or just destroyed.
the flaw is we can't prove that it any major reasoning. Either direction. The only evidence we have is things like Iron Monger, Whiplash, Killigan, Ultron can't exist without Iron man. Winter Solider and Zola's imprisonment wouldn't have happen without Captain America
Loki being exiled and finding the cube wouldn't have happen happen without Thor's banishment
Abomination wouldn't have happen without Hulk.
Hell without a successful Super Solider Serum, Abomination, Winter Solider, Tony's Parents getting killed maybe the Hulk would have never happen.

You can argue things could have turn out worse but there is nothing in the Narratives to show that clearly or even to a leave to have concern.

why were the death tolls so low? it makes it feel so unbelievable

Either Disney doesn't want to scare away soccer moms, or Ross is only talking about people directly killed by an Avenger's actions.

Ross isn't the Red Hulk nor help create Hulk in the MCU.

Zemo knew what he was and had done, he told T'Challa as much. He did what he did anyway because he wanted the Avengers to pay at any cost. It was that simple.

In his mind if he didn't do it then while he wouldn't be a hypocrite they would not properly know what they're paying for.

In fact exactly as people are envisioning now is how it would most likely go. They'd see the footage, they'd say they're not to blame for that, stick together and carry on their ways. Why would Zemo possibly want that when that sort of thinking and power is what caused his loss?

Is Ross played by the same guy in the first movie?

Because Superman didn't even try.

>Only one that has any good weight to that is Red Skull/Hydra
A pseudo-Nazi cult taking over the world with reverse-eningeered Asgardian tech is some pretty fuckin' hefty weight.

>Loki being exiled and finding the cube wouldn't have happen happen without Thor's banishment
Thor was banished because Loki manipulated him into disobeying Odin.

Loki did that because Odin "adopted" him; otherwise he would've been Frost Giant #314,848,679.

So really everything ever is Odin's fault.

Are we sure that 73 number wasn't associated with the explosion at the start of the movie? Because 73 people dying from that explosion makes waaaaaay more sense than the Battle of New York.

I feel like this might be a meme that was born of incomplete information weeks before the movie aired, and now is just hanging around on inertia.

>But How would someone really be able to tell that you're a mutant right off the bat if you don't say so.

As Morrison run showed, there are more Beaks then there are Jean Grays