DCEU General

Revenge Tragedy Edition

Below is an analysis of Batman v Superman as a five act revenge tragedy. A genre popular in Elizabethan times, that Shakespeare fucked with, heavily.

How you can tell plebs from patricians is that patricians can enjoy something different. Plebs learn what is familiar is good. Think of children who see adults laughing at a joke and fixate on what they think is the funny word that they'll repeat over and over again.

Patricians recognize that artists break rules to innovate and can differentiate when someone is trying to adhere to a form and failing, versus when they intentionally break rules.

Plebs also latch onto jargon to conceal their ignorance. "I didn't like it/didn't understand it" becomes "the film has structural problems" in an attempt to legitimize their dislike. This is something you can see critics do when they call the Doomsday fight the "third act" despite BvS being five acts. They're saying "third act" as short hand with no understanding of what that means

It's why film criticism is intellectually bankrupt anymore.

That's my rant for the day. This is probably the best thing I've read about BvS.

pulpklatura.tumblr.com/post/141843209469/batman-v-superman-the-modern-revenge-tragedy

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=0vAVjWTx4WE
youtube.com/watch?v=h-k-tQxJv8o
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

>Exposition - usually a ghost is involved here that calls upon the hero to avenge him/her
Anticipation - detailed planning of revenge takes place
Confrontation between hero and intended victim
Delay because hero decides to perform the killing
Completion of the hero (who usually dies as a result of the revenge)

>Yeah. Heavy stuff. Dare I say grim dark? Or depressing and devoid of humour? Hamlet follows this structure, and he very famously spends four whole Acts pissing about and ‘To be or not to be’-ing before everything is resolved and *spoilers* he kills his uncle (who murdered his father) in the final Act where literally everyone dies in an all out carnage, including his mother. Then Norway comes and takes over Denmark because like the protagonists of Game of Thrones, they were too busy fighting over the damn throne instead of realising that there was an external threat. I believe my point is made: revenge tragedy = lots of time pissing about while contemplating the themes, followed by bloody Act where everyone ideally dies. (Don’t believe me? Go read The Duchess of Malfi.)

>Plebs also latch onto jargon to conceal their ignorance. "I didn't like it/didn't understand it" becomes "the film has structural problems" in an attempt to legitimize their dislike. This is something you can see critics do when they call the Doomsday fight the "third act" despite BvS being five acts. They're saying "third act" as short hand with no understanding of what that means
This all BvS criticism in a nutshell. It says more of the person than of the film.

Just like Superman's perception says more about the perceiver than the perceived. Life imitates art.

Why do you think you're welcome here, reddit tourist?

Your act is as hollow as your low-effort shitposts.

Next time I'll put everything into one big unreadable block of text

Interesting.

We will have our vengeance one day bros. Vengeance for the killing of capekino by the hands of illiterate critics and shills. It is coming.

Best revenge is doing well. I think Justice League is set up to do well. If it does, it'll force people to consider that in context with Man of Steel and Batman v Superman.

>Also Bruce’s older ghosts could be said to be a symptom of his madness, which was something that is definitely considered in Hamlet itself). (As an aside note that Wayne Manor is empty and that Bruce’s surroundings are usually barren when he lets himself be himself (i.e. broody manpain^infinity). He is isolated because of and by his madness.) And yet Bruce is the Cassandra, the one who has insight into the future with his dreams. Is this literal - does Barry Allen really appear to him? Is the dream sequence of an evil Superman with the Darkseid symbol and the Superman: Red Son look the future, since he has insight? OR is Bruce becoming insane as a result of the very thing he thinks is saving him? (We know later that Lex too may have insight into the future, in the ‘ding dong the god is dead, ding ding ding’ scene, but he too is psychotic.) Madness is also invoked by the montage of Clark saving people, because he is doing the same thing over and over again and yet nothing seems to be getting better. I would also like to state that the audience is reflected in the whole montage - a lot of the backlash for MoS centred around who Superman needs to be to us, the audience. That he is a God-analogue further forces us to reflect on our relationship with divinity and evokes feelings of pity due for catharsis later.
The meaning of madness and dreams.

This image is a perfect break down of the major story arcs in BvS and the underlying themes.

Theres obviously much more to it, but this is a nice crash course on breaking down what makes the story so powerful.

I just don't understand how anyone can do better than BvS. The child of blockbuster and arthouse cinema. What's shitty to me is I know JL will suffer due to the unfair critical response of BvS. They might have ruined a potentially perfect trilogy.

I think it'll be alright. I mean I was there with you when the backlash to BvS hit. But Chris Terrio said they already had sketched out Justice League to be a certain way. And they leapt into production. Zack has never been a "company man" to compromise his vision. Think about how he's stuck to his guns even with the backlash he's been getting for years.

Joss Whedon is the wild card, but Whedon knows what it's like to have the studio fuck up your film and stick you with the blame. I think he'll be respectful of Zack's work.

I don't have faith in Whedon. I just don't think he's a good writer anywhere outside of television.

youtube.com/watch?v=0vAVjWTx4WE

The guy who did the excellent Man of Steel thesis is overwhelmed by BvS but an analysis is coming. When it drops, then consider haters forever BTFO just like his MoS thesis did.

I've been waiting for this guy to get into it. It still floors me that I missed the doubling of the birth of Kal-El/death of Zod

>>Plebs also latch onto jargon to conceal their ignorance. "The film has structural problems" becomes "you didn't understand it/you need to watch it X amount of times" in an attempt to legitimize their like for it. This is something you can see autist do when they call the Doomsday fight the "the sacrifice of Superman" despite being just an excuse to have a CGI ridden climax. They're saying "it's symbolic" to brush off the fact that Doomsday comes out of nowhere in the last third of the movie, as an afterthought, and it's not clearly established where it comes from and and how does it fit with Luthor's plan, and how did he think to stop him if he killed Superman. They just focus on symbolism, because narratively, BvS is the clear example of the shooting of an unfinished script by a director with not enough narrative skills to make up for it and solve its problems. Instead, he just aggravates them.

>The child of blockbuster and arthouse cinema.
The problem is that the child was born with one cromosome too many.

So Superman doesn't sacrifice himself at the end of BvS, therefore redeeming the perception of himself and saving Bruce through that redemption? Maybe we watched two different films?

Yes he does, but instead of properly setting up his sacrifice, they just add a random monster that was hastily established in a few unclear scenes just a few minutes early, and doesn't really feel as relevant and important as it should've been.
I understood what they were going for, and it could've been good if it was properly set up, but it wasn't. Everything before the BvS fight dragged on and on for a climax that we all knew it was coming and we all knew what the outcome was gonna be, and then it rushes like a motherfucker for the climax, putting the audience inside a CGI blender that has no dramatic weight whatsoever since we just found out there was a big bad monster that wanna break stuff. It was a pretty poorly built movie, from a narrative standpoint. Extremely uneven and unballanced.

All this is wrong. Doomsday is was built up from the start of the film. It serves a clear thematic and narrative purpose of Lex unleashing Doomsday on Superman. You keep using opinion words with nothing substantial to prove it. All you do is spout shit that can barely be argued since it's all opinions with no arguments.

Something tells me you weren't as critical of the random ass alien invasion in Avengers.

Oh look another shill thread or is this a safe space or perhaps a hugbox maybe?

"DChads" lmao

>Marvelcucks

>Doomsday is was built up from the start of the film. It serves a clear thematic and narrative purpose of Lex unleashing Doomsday on Superman.
It's not really established. We only see Luthor taking Zod's corpse and a piece of the ship, and then, for some reason, a monster is created. We don't know how, and what's worse, we don't know how Luthor knew, what was he planning to do and how he planned to control it. What was he planning to do if Doomsday killed Superman? Him being so sloppy and careless with his plans contradicts everything we're told about him during the course of the movie.

>Something tells me you weren't as critical of the random ass alien invasion in Avengers.
I only watched the first 20 minutes or so of Avengers before turning it off. Keep your company wars to yourself.

Yeah sure you did.

>We don't know how
Absolutely inane criticism that would add nothing to the film besides an extra scene.

>What was he planning to do if Doomsday killed Superman?
Reunite Justice League under his banner. Something the film is implied he's been planning a long time.

>Reunite Justice League under his banner.
How? If Doomsday broke out of his fucking lab, the JL wouldn't even need Batman to figure out who the fuck was responsible for that monster breaking shit.

Also
>Absolutely inane criticism that would add nothing to the film besides an extra scene.
No it isn't. We need to know what's going on in the film in order to get invested. It doesn't need to be explained through expository dialogue (like pretty much everything was explained on BvS btw), but we need to understand what's happening. Luthor's plans aren't clear when we see him taking Zod's corpse but that's not a problem, you can set it up as somewhat mysterious but at some point in the movie you need to understand what happened. This isn't the case for the movie. For whatever reason, the blood creates Doomsday and we don't know why or how. And Luthor couldn't have known about that either, so how was Doomsday a part of his long time plan of uniting the league under his banner?
And again, how was he planning to stop him when he let him break out of his lab, when he hadn't gathered the League yet? Was he gonna let him destroy Metropolis and whatever other cities Doomsday felt like it while he was going around convincing WW, Aquaman and Flash (who are spread all throughout the globe) to help him out?

>How?
Out of necessity.

>We need to know what's going on in the film in order to get invested
I think you're taking out on the film for being a barinlet completely missing the deeper meaning of Zod's blood being the life blood of Doomsday. Don't blame the film. Blame yourself.

Again, most criticism boiling down to you hypothizing a what-if scenario that is impossible to constructively argue for and against because it never happened.

What would've happened if a rocket accidently hit Tony's face in CW and killed him? What then?

>deeper meaning of Zod's blood being the life blood of Doomsday.
Yeah, the meaning, symbolism and all that is all fine, but it needs to be introduced in a way that makes sense narratively.
And how does "out of necessity" answer my question? How would he be able to form the League under him, when he was obviously the source of the menace that was supposed to bring them together?
And as you said, he supposedly was planning for a long time to bring the League together, how is Doomsday part of that plan when he creates him by chance and didn't know beforehand what was gonna happen?
And again, how was he planning to control Doomsday if it killed Superman, when the league was spread all over the planet and didn't knew each other, nor Luthor (with the exception of WW, who wouldn't follow his orders anyway)?

>but it needs to be introduced in a way that makes sense narratively.
How does it not make sense narratively? Explain to me in detail exactly what part confused you and I will explain to you the simplest way I can.

Also, assuming these characters know as much as the viewer does, what an idiot you are.

Again, what would've happened if a rocket hit Tony's face in CW? Did anyone plan for that extreme?

>that makes sense narratively
That's not how you use that word. You probably thought you sounded smart but it's obvious you're just a massive retard.

See pictured (you).

Some drops of blood = huge invincible monster.

>assuming these characters know as much as the viewer does, what an idiot you are.
When did I do this?

And CW has its own fair share of tardness, such a professional hitman that was the best at his job, doing a hit right in front of a security camera (back when you didn't have one in every fucking corner), and then walking right in the frame and looking at the camera to give a nice clear shot for everybody to see (and then proceed to destroy the camera for some reason, as if he didn't knew he was recorded anyway).
Not to mention all the goverments of the world and the whole league of superheroes being fooled by a fucking rubber mask.

English is not my first language, so I might have fucked up but isn't "narratively" an adverb that means "in a narrative way or manner"?

>When did I do this?
You are doing it when you're assuming they all knew Lex did it. They don't arrest him until after Doomsday was destroyed and he was broken in his pool of blood, caught with the blood on his hands.

>when you're assuming they all knew Lex did it.
I assume they knew because the fucking monster broke out of where Lex is running his experiments on the Kryptonian ship and they're not fucking retarded.

Could be a million reasons for that. Lex could've just as easily pinned it on Superman.

Yes, but they'd try to figure it out after everything's done. They wouldn't just follow his orders when his actions were shady as fuck and he was the biggest suspect. And all this without taking in account WW wasn't gonna follow Luthor's orders no matter what.

I sure hope joss does right by snyder.

Tell me, Snyder.

Do you bleed?

DChad threads are always so kino

I think that's an important observation. Context actually matters in the structure of the story they've put together, and they start hinting at that all the way back in Pa Kent's first scene.

Oh hell yes!! I can't wait to see it.

Doomsday vs. Clark was always Lex's real win/win. Whichever of the two wins, he's got his "alien threat," the leverage he'd use to get the government to help him unite Diana and the others.

Bruce, the one guy who could have conceivably challenged him for the "Max Lord" role - the League's backer/liaison, would have been dead at that point, dead at the hands of the only other leaguer whose file was tellingly absent from what Bruce found on Lex's server.

...

Pheeewwww... for a second there i thought my DChads failed me and there was no Snyderkino thread going on

>Oh your mom's name is Martha too? I guess I won't kill you then. We're friends now, Superman. Sorry.

That's a great image.

Did you come here to embarrass yourself by showing that you didn't understand the scene?

I think he will. Changing his vision after the circumstances that occurred would be cruel.

BvS>MoS>Watchmen

300 is on its own level at least until I get a good idea what Snyder's George Washington movie will be about. Do not pretend you will be offended by a movie that plays into the mythic idea of the founding fathers.

Explain it to me.

>Superman and Batman fight
>Batman is going to kill Superman
>Superman starts saying Martha.
>Kinda weird to refer to your mom by her name and not as mom, even if you're adopted
>I guess they needed a reason to break up the fight
>Batman goes "OMG! Why are you saying that name??!"
>Lois runs in
>"Dude, it's his mom's name!"
>Batman stops, throws away the kryptonite spear
>"Sorry. I will rescue your mom."
>This incident is never once brought up again

ReadHas it all laid out for you.

Dont you autistic faggots get tired of discussing the same movie over and over again? Get a life

I'm dismissing it as the wankery and wishful thinking of somebody who is upset that their favorite movie has one of the worst scripts of all time, and the movie is about little else than making Batman fight Superman for a little while before they have to fight a monster.

"Oh no how do we move on from this fight scene? Let's have Superman mention the name Martha (who is in mortal danger at the moment) and hope Batman remembers that his mom's name also is Martha! Batman apologizes and rush off to rescue Superman's mom. Then the two men, who were trying to kill each other and came pretty close at doing it, immediately unite as friends and start joking with Wonder Woman as they prepare to fight off Doomsday.

>philosophical differences
Only for Superman, and it doesn't make any sense since he causes more death and destruction than Batman ever could regardless if it's intentional or not. Batman had a legitimate complaint about him.

It's not so much discussion as it is celebration. We celebrate this film.

This. We all love these movies, even if we hate them.

At least Snarky Alfred was great.

>a director gunning down gooks like it's fun
Why is this allowed?

>all those flashbacks
Hey you guys remember Batman's mom right? Martha Wayne? She died in the beginning of this movie. She had a pearl necklace! Let's show you the pearl necklace scene again! Just to remind you!

DUDE BATMAN ISN'T OBSESSED WITH HIS PARENTS DEATH LMAO QUIP QUOP

epic

Yeah, but we know that already. Why the constant repetitions? It'd be like if they cut to Uncle Ben getting killed by spics every time Spider-Man has a hard time. "Remember this scene, audience?" Annoying as fuck.

Snyder gives his audience absolutely no credit. He thinks you're a bunch of idiots.

>I'm dismissing it
Disappointing but very predictable.

This.

Well, I'm sorry, retard, but I'm not buying it. These movies are not written by intelligent people, and that includes the Marvel movies if it makes you feel better.

If you actually watched Batman Begins you would hate Nolan. He can't hide under the excuses Tim Burton does.

Great ,

The daily BvS/MOS were good meme threads are back.

And I still see the DCucks are still getting baited kek

There's literally no reason to argue with you because every single argument presented to you is dismissed as "headcanon" as you continue to take a scene out of context and attempt to drive it into the ground with arguments pulled out of your ass. And each time you get called out, you back away, dismiss and resume to do the same shit.

We've already explained this to you. Probably a hundred times by now. And you still repeat yourself daily like the sad tragic fuck you are.

Damn, I know today I'll spend my time shitposting in the BvS thread. Just like the past 10 months of my life. Maybe the mouse will reward me more this time.

Lol @ DCucks being blown away by rookie level symbolism in Snyder movies.

> "Look guys my children's cartoon character movies are so deep. Snyder used Christian symbolism , that means it was very deep and mature"

It's ok Pajeet atleast you got poop offs

How old are you that you are impressed by absolute garbage films by Snyder?

It gets even sadder if you are the one writing these long essays about the movies that have nothing to do with what the writer intended it to mean.

Or 2, if you are just some moron that saved all these essay post that were posted by trolls to bait DCucks and think they are actually real.

Whatever the case you are a worthless retard that needs to KYS asap.

>There's literally no reason to argue with you because every single argument presented to you is dismissed as "headcanon"
Look who's talking, retard.

I actually hate Nolan's Batman movies. Other than Heath Ledger's Joker and Bane-posting they are incredibly boring.

IT'S CAPESHIT

Why is it so easy to trigger shit eating Marvel pajeets bros?

> "Muh children's cartoon charter movies are mature and deep guys, here's some shit posting to prove it"

>And what falls (dot dot dot) is fallen
That is some fourteen year old goth girl poetry right there.

Marvel = chads
DC = hot topic

Good. More, give me more poo tears.

...

...

Claim her Sup Forums

Mine

Muh succubus

Faora and the chick in green are the only hot ones.

youtube.com/watch?v=h-k-tQxJv8o

I'm going to leave this here for the Marlels

best Harley

Doomsday is an ancient Kryptonian deformity created by the Genesis Chamber using Kryptonian genetic samples. He does not come out of nowhere.

He comes out of nowhere in the Death of Superman comic where he's given no back story and exists because the writers wanted a giant monster to kill Superman. That's what Doomsday is.

Luthor's motivation is murky, but it helps that afterwards he's deemed insane, unfit to stand trial, and that he was communing with Steppenwolf. I think he was manipulated by Steppenwolf into creating a monster he thought he could control (but couldn't) in order to weaken Earth's defenses.

This is not explained, but this is the midpoint in a trilogy and part of a cinematic universe. Some things have payoff in further installments, quite like episodes in a TV show. You can criticize the idea of cinematic universes if you want, but it is a different paradigm than just doing one off movies.

I don't think Lex wanted to start the Justice League himself. At best, he was interested in branding metas as criminals to get them rolled into Suicide Squad like programs. But he would hate other meta humans as much as he hates Superman. Consider his rants about gods and that Diana is literally a demi god who sat through the Cold War and did nothing to stop men like Lex's father.

Can we not talk about Marvel/pajeets/pakis? There's 100,000 other things to talk about. That's why I posted a link to BvS as a revenge tragedy. It's interesting enough.

>your movie is the worst!
>no your movie is the worst!
Jesus christ almighty, capeshitters.

> Snyder threads

>shitpost
more like shit taste

At what point were they supposed to sit down and talk about their feelings? Batman has to go save Martha and then they have to roll into fighting Doomsday. Were they supposed to tell Doomsday to take an hour off so that they could hash it out? The inability to address things is part of the reason Bruce is starting the Justice League.

It sets up Thomas Wayne's last word, the thing echoed by Superman who is giving Batman a name to look for before he gets murdered (because Superman had no reason to think that Batman would stop).

The name that makes Batman confront A) that Batman is turning into the same kind of thug that murdered his parents and B) Superman's essential humanity. He's not an alien hiding on Earth. He was raised here.

>Batman is convinced Superman is a weapon of mass destruction waiting to go off
>Superman sees Batman as an unhinged vigilante
>Superman is blackmailed by Luthor to kill Batman in order to save his mother
>Superman and Batman fight
>Batman is going to kill Superman
>In his last breath, Superman utters something about "Save...Martha..." because the only reason he is doing all this is to save his mother (also, you wouldn't say "Save my mom" - the name narrows it down to an extent)
>Batman loses his shit because he is suffering from deep trauma (he doesn't know what this alien is capable of - mind reading?!)
>Lois runs in
>"Dude, it's his mom's name!"
>Batman realizes Superman is more human than he thought and that he has become like the criminal who killed his parents
>"Martha won't die tonight."
>This incident is never once brought up again because the characters don't have time to sit down and talk about their feelings; then Superman dies.

It's the closest Batman will ever come to getting to save his own mother from death.

>
faora

That's not Mia Sara...

Batman is either completely insane or the script was written by at least 7 people who all had to write different parts of the movie and then they just slapped it together, didn't read it beforehand and started filming.

...

Faora's characterization was pretty good. She was a no nonsense military character who put a lot of emphasis on honour. She didn't need to draw blades with that captain but she did so anyway.

What with wrong with batman's characterization?
he doesn't come to terms with his grief at his parent's death and tries to bury it by going murderhobo on criminals.

He finally realises how fucked up he is when he is about to stab superman, who isn't the monster Batman made him out to be, and is at the end of the day trying to save his mother.

>Batman loses his shit because he is suffering from deep trauma (he doesn't know what this alien is capable of - mind reading?!)
Close, but I don't think he thought Superman had mind reading capabilities. He was just suffering PTSD for a moment, found out this alien not only has a human mother, but she has a high chance of being killed in cold blood similar to Bruce's. This gives Batman a choice. To either kill this dangerous being and take the 1% chance. Or, redeem himself and save a mother he couldn't.

The question now becomes: "Well why didn't Superman say mother instead of Martha?"
One can only assume that Superman didn't know that Batman knew of his alter ego as Clark Kent. Or, he was trying to say Martha Kent so Batman would know who to look for.

meant for