ITT: Post panels or scenes where you actually felt a bit of sympathy for the villain

ITT: Post panels or scenes where you actually felt a bit of sympathy for the villain

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youtube.com/watch?v=E-QKd37uFug
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I never felt sympathy for Ursa. Lust? Yes. Sympathy? No.

Because she didn't give love to daddy's little tyrant which was Azula?

Because she abandoned her children. Forgetting them so she could start a new family.

Not really a panel or specific scene, but I felt sympathy for the Kingpin in Daredevil season 1.
I guess it was the episode when we discover that he killed his dad
He was such a good villain in that show

>Azula was a villain

No. She was a princess who wanted to help her father expand his empire, that doesn't make her a villain. Azula was an antagonist, not a villain.

She was force to leave

no she was a villain

So?

She falsely made correspondence with her former lover so that she could spite Ozai, despite him GIVING HER EVERYTHING, INCLUDING CHILDREN.

Imperialism makes you a villain.

In the final fight between Azula vs Zuko, when she got chained down, and is crying, screaming and fire blasts out of her mouth. Damn show.

I feel like you haven't watch the show or that you're stupid

What's the difference between an antagonist and a villain?

What's the context here?

Yes, she was forced to leave.

And then she WILLINGLY went to the Mother of Faces and asked that she be given a new life, knowing that if she did so she would FORGET HER OWN CHILDREN.

Just because a piece of shit like Ursa is put into a bad situation doesn't mean they stop being a piece of shit.

>she tried to give everyone a better life and was a piece of shit for this

Are Ursa defenders consciously or unconsciously retarded?

No, it doesn't. If your country fought and lost, that's just the way things are. Azula and Ozai wanted to expand their kingdom, that doesn't make them villains, it makes them rulers who wanted more. You can't consider them villainous for doing something that is common in history and nature in general. You can't color everything in childish sense of black and white out of subjective morals

>What's the context here?

- Ursa was exiled pre-series
- post series, Zuko goes to find her
- takes Azula along because he thinks it might bring her some closure
- turns out Ursa had a spirit take away her memories and give her a new face
- New Ursa has a husband and kid of her own
- Azula confronts New Ursa
- OP's pic happens
- Zuko is a huge pussy momma's boy about the whole thing
- Azula leaves

Then in Somke & Shadow, Azula realizes that if Zuko is really going to be Fire Lord, she has to basically beat the pussy out of him so he'll man up. She does this by pretending to be a spirit, kidnapping a bunch of kids, and forcing Zuko to make several hard choices. Ultimately, however, the story goes fucking nowhere and neither we the readers nor Azula herself get any form of closure about anything.

they were not merely expanding an already big empire. They were beginning another genocide of all other benders.
You are literally defending cartoon hitler.

The only person she tried to give a better life to is herself. Which, I might add, she didn't need to forget her kids to do.

its beneficial to literally everyone in the situation considering if she tried to go back zuko would be killed

Thanks.

...or she could just wait until Zuko invariably overthrows Ozai, at which point she would be free to go home whenever she wanted.

Which, again, doesn't require her to forget her kids.

she didnt know he would do that
its a better assumption that zuko would have just joined ozai's army
unless you are telling me that she can see the future

Holy crap you are stupid.

That doesn't make her a villain as they saw it as removing an obstacle to their goal.

It really isn't, though.

She raised Zuko to be different.

She should have (maybe did) sent a secret message to Iroh telling him to look after Zuko and mentor him until he can ovetthrow Ozai.

They could have united the pro-Iroh sucession group along with creating a new pro-Zuko minority to topple the regime.

>could have
it also could have gotten zuko killed
you seem to be forgetting shes doing this soley to keep her childeren safe
>She raised Zuko to be different.
yeah but she didnt know how ozai would raise him afterwards
your assumptions are terrible and make no sense at all

>she didnt know he would do that

She didn't know he wouldn't, either, and yet still took the chicken shit way out by willingly choosing to forget her own children.

Ursa is a disgusting human being.

yes she should have stayed in the fire kingdom and had zuko and herself murdered
how dare she think of others

Better to die than be raised by a murderous megalomaniac.

>shes doing this soley to keep her childeren safe

No, she went into exile to keep her children safe. Asking the Mother of Faces for a new life was something she did entirely of her own volition. No one was making Ursa forget Zuko and Azula but Ursa.

forgetting her childeren helped her keep away from them as well

Holy shit you are actually fucking autistic. Ozai was literally trying to genocide a decent majority of the fire nation during Sozin's Comet with his air fleet. Heck the only time we see him in a semi-positive light is that childhood picture of him, he's literally depicted as a sadistic fucktard who had no redeeming traits.

Are you retarded? Seriously, I'm not trying to poke fun at you here. I think you may actually have some form of mental defect.

>genocide a decent majority of the fire nation
earth nation

>I cant think of an arguement so I'll call him retarded

yeah thats about what I expected

>it's a "this woman who had no political power, friends or allies should have just found a way to get her and her children away from her abusive husband who is the most powerful man in her country" thread

Granted the spirit thing was stupid but that's because they needed an explanation for why Ursa didn't just show up on her own after hearing that Zuko had become Fire Lord and that the war was over.

Even then, I can kind of understand why Ursa did it.

Well what do you want, man? How am I supposed to form an argument against the random, nonsensical horseshit you keep spraying? I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but you screeching like an autistic rhesus monkey whenever I try to make a point is not how you win a debate.

You do realize she never wanted to be with Ozai at all and fucking hated him?

Scrapper, I know you love Azula, but you have to listen to yourself and realize you're not making any sense. You really need to stop monitoring Sup Forums for any threads that may show Azula in a bad light. Heck, step away from the computer entirely for a while. Please, I'm honestly worried about you.

Ah, so you're a legit psycho.

This was before the whole Betty in the future BS and it was pretty sad at the time

Lich puts Ice King in a mental trap so he won't fuck up his plans this time

>they were merely settling an empty continent

Spell it correctly, you're on an US board, man.

is this different than the mental labyrinth inside the crown?

No, you idiot! She didn't need to find a way to save them, Zuko needed to know his mother was out there and that she still loved him. This contradicts her OWN ADVICE in his flashback!! "Never Forget who you are, Zuko, but I will, and I'll forget all about you as well!" Why the fuck should we be connect with Zuko's concern for her if she's such a hypocrite? It's bad fucking storytelling, and it didn't need to be told. You're saying they needed an explanation for why Ursa didn't show up?? Easy: She started a new life in the colonies and was ashamed of herself for running away and not doing more to protect Zuko. That's all that's needed. It ends with Zuko forgiving her, as Iroh forgave him. It's so simple, and Gene Yang is a fucking piece of shit for screwing the pooch this bad. How he can write New Superman and this garbage is beyond me.

Yea, this is a dream-like trance the Lich put on Ice King
It's implied that the Lich's abilities override those of the crown in the comics

Wait, are people honestly defending Ursa?

Leaving the fire nation and her children behind so that Zuko can live? Fair. Understandable. Can't fault her here.

In no way, shape, or form did she need to have a magical spirit erase her memories of her children though. Any other mother worth her weight in chicken tendies would hold on to hope that one day she'd be reunited with her children. Nothing was stopping her from fucking off to some remote location in the Earth Kingdom with her new old lover and riding it all out and then going right home should that day ever come.
But you're fucking retarded if you can still think her a good person after willingly choosing to forget about her own children. That one act of selfish cowardice ruins her as a mother and a woman.

I didn't read the comic, was the scene where Azula saw her mother a halucination or how was it explained in the memory loss context?

Why would I feel any sort of sympathy for Ursa? Fuck that bitch.

This. Ursa was nothing short of a piece of shit.

I don't think it was a good decision but I don't think she's a horrible person because she made it. Her entire life had been shit from the moment she met Ozai and she had to give up the one (lol) thing that made it even remotely bearable to her.

>Any other mother worth her weight in chicken tendies would hold on to hope that one day she'd be reunited with her children.

Mothers are humans just like anyone else and thinking they gain wills of iron just because they have a kid is stupid. If this franchise was darker she probably would have just committed suicide.

It was a hallucination.

>I don't think it was a good decision but I don't think she's a horrible person because she made it.

She is.

the real tragedy is in her amnesic state she's genuinely apologetic for what her forgotten self did; once her memories and face are restored, fuck all of that. I'm not even upset at her running off, but that stings.

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

>Mothers are humans just like anyone else and thinking they gain wills of iron just because they have a kid is stupid.

I take it you don't have children of your own.

Ursa never really loved her daughter and the fact that she will never ever face the consequences of her being a massive cunt, pisses me off even more.

You are welcome.

>my experiences are universal
Considering how many people on Sup Forums have mother issues you'd think they'd understand just because you pop out a kid doesn't automatically make you a perfect parent.

>Ursa never really loved her daughter
I don't know whether to find Azula's rationalization of that tragic or funny.

No, but it's expected to actually care about them, to actually love them. Fuck right off, you cunt.

The shit Ursa did, it's fucking disgraceful.

> Gene Yang reminding us he's a good writer

Both.

Forgetting to pick your kid up from soccer practice or blowing up on them over something stupid because you had a shit day at work is what doesn't make you a perfect parent.

Choosing to completely forget about your children so you can go off and start a new family guilt free not only makes you a shit parent, it makes you a shit person.

user she helped murder the fucking fire lord to protect one of them and wanted to take both of them with her when she left. Ursa definitely loved them, but she wasn't a good parent.

>there will never be a good Azula thread on Sup Forums so long as Scrapper draws breath

If not Scrapper there'd be someone else, Sup Forums is so far up Azula's ass it's really hard to have a nuanced discussion about her or the FN royal family that doesn't dissolve into how literally everything bad that ever happened to them is Ursa's fault.

>Ursa definitely loved them, but she wasn't a good parent.

Loved who?

The problem with Ursa is that she's an attractive Milf, so Anons are thinking with their dicks, just like they do in real life.

If she were fat and ugly, or the roles were reversed and she were a man, nobody would be defending her awful decision.

Good thing hate fucking is a real thing too.

I think he's fun. This place wouldn't be the same without our resident pedophile.

I don't know how many times I need to say that I don't think Ursa made the right choice, I just don't think she's a bad person for it. She lost her children, her parents were dead and her ex had apparently disappeared. These comics don't give the proper weight to the situations they depict but realistically Ursa was probably at the end of her rope mentally speaking.

I don't know why these threads are always about how Ursa is a bad person for not making the best of an awful situation and not about how really evil Ozai was. Ursa, Zuko and Azula were all victims of that guy but for some reason people act like it's all Ursa's fault.

Not Sup Forums, but I feel this is worth sharing.
youtube.com/watch?v=E-QKd37uFug

>I just don't think she's a bad person for it.

She is. Because who gives a shit about your kids?

...

>never liked Azula but all my friends did
>they hated the finale while I loved it
>they were massively let down by the comics

Anyway I think Azula should get a happy end at this point but it was nice seeing her obnoxious fans and her be taken down a few pegs.

Considering the circumstances, that really isn't so horrible.

I mean, I think it was implied that she killed/assisted in killing the previous firelord in order to save Zuko's life, she knew Ozai was going to become firelord and that she would probably never be allowed back, so having the memories of her children ((or, just Zuko)) would be too painful to bear with for the rest of her life. So instead of wallowing in sadness or killing herself, she gets her memories erased.

I mean it WAS unlikely as fuck that they would ever have met again anyway.

What did he do again? Murder?

A blo blo blo.

>Considering the circumstances, that really isn't so horrible.

Nigger, this better be b8.

Serial killer, yes. Lot of dead kids.

Tell me where I'm wrong then?

But she's a MOTHER and that means she's not allowed to make mistakes or have any feelings that aren't about her kids.

Yes, her getting her memories erased contradicts something she said in the show but that's because Gene is a mediocre writer who probably just read wiki summaries of episodes instead of actually rewatching the show.

You tell me where you are right. Because thus far I only see a cunt that is defending the indefensible with opinions. Witch is what we all do.

This choice does do put something in the light and it's that she never really loved her kids. Not once.

>she never really loved her kids. Not once.
I don't know if my mom was willing to murder the fucking ruler of my country to keep me safe, I'd say she loved me.

>she's not allowed to make mistake

What she did was not a mistake. Forgetting to pick up your kid after a day of school is a mistake. Abandoning them was pure
hypocritical cowardice.

not him but Zuko was the next in line for the throne and even if he did not take the throne that in no way justifies her erasing the memory of her children

> She never loved her kids. Not once

Or maybe she loved them ((or just Zuko)) so much that she couldn't bear the thought of having to live in another country, always thinking of them, always wanting to be with them, but knowing she would never be allowed back in to the fire nation, let alone be allowed to see either of them again.

She's a human being, would YOU want to wallow in despair for the rest of your life after being banished from your homeland and never seeing the people you love most ever again?

Yeah, after she told my psychopathic dad that I'm not his, putting me in that position to begin with. Wonder if she really truly loved her kids or deep down kinda despise them for being Ozai's kids?

Bet it's a bit of both.

>Or maybe she loved them ((or just Zuko)) so much that she couldn't bear the thought of having to live in another country, always thinking of them, always wanting to be with them, but knowing she would never be allowed back in to the fire nation, let alone be allowed to see either of them again.

Ah blo blo blo. She gave up.

>She's a human being, would YOU want to wallow in despair for the rest of your life after being banished from your homeland and never seeing the people you love most ever again?

Sounds like a pathetic excuse made by a weakling.

I think what these anons need to realize is we're not saying Ursa literally did nothing wrong but we're saying given the circumstances she found herself in, we found her actions understandable.

And yeah the whole "she's a mother, she has to give up everything for her children" (which she already did) is stupid and reduces Ursa's character, and it's not like she has a lot of that.

An antagonist is a character opposed to the protagonist for whatever reason, usually because their objectives collide. A villain isn't just opposed to the protagonist in its objectives, but also in their motivation/ideology, which is usually aligned with the classical axis (axises? axi?) of good and evil.

Azula wasn't a villain per se, because her motivation for being agaisnt Aang was more because she followed Ozai's orders more than for her own volution. She was an extension of the villain, so to speak, but not a villain herself.

She's allowed to make mistakes, sure, but that would destroy the narrative built up by Zuko. Zuko sees his mom as the one bright spot in his young life and we are shown many strong examples of her kindness and protectiveness. It's not even like it was a total lie -- it's be cool to see Zuko realize that his mom was actually a terrible person, but that's never shown. They're trying to have it both ways by making you sympathetic for her, yet they build up this sympathy in the dumbest ways possible.

Let me put it this way: Yes, a lot of people are weak. Lots of people would abandon their kid. But Why would we watch a show about some poor woman being scared and making dumb mistakes? You come to TV for the larger-than-life characters and their crazy adventures. Throwing a woman who is, on one hand, held by Zuko in such high regard, and then collapse it by showing her as a common, scared, flawed woman is not handled well. She is never called on her bullshit, and that is frustrating when our stories have been so clear-cut up to this point.

Cobra Commander buries his son.

The premise is a bit flawed (for reasons I won't get into) but there's something poignant to me about the Commander saying "Nah, no ceremony. Just give me a minute to reflect on his life."

(Yes, I know this thread had derailed but eh, why not get this in before it gets archived?)

Wallow in despair? No.
But I would hold on to hope that we'd be reunited one day.
FFS user, her kids weren't dead. It's not like there was zero hope of ever seeing them again.

>I think what these anons need to realize is we're not saying Ursa literally did nothing wrong but we're saying given the circumstances she found herself in, we found her actions understandable.

We get it. We just dont agree and probably never will. This "debate" will go nowhere.

Wow, we're all really impressed dude. You should screen cap this and post it on Reddit!