Let's say that Luke actually went through with killing Ben

Let's say that Luke actually went through with killing Ben.

What, exactly, was going to be his plan after that? What was he going to tell his other students? WHAT WAS HE GOING TO TELL LEIA AND HAN?

>you killed Ben!
>TO SAVE BILLIONS

Also fuck yoda for telling luke to share his failures. He ran and hid too, and for longer.

murder suicide

>Luke sense darkness in Ben
>actually acts like Luke from the OT and repeatedly tries to turn his nephew from the dark side
>realizes that he cannot
>goes to kill Ben in his sleep
>can't bring himself to do it
>one day his worst fears have been realized, Ben has murdered all of his students and ran off with the few that joined him (knights of Ren)
>in keeping with his established OT characterization, Luke CANNOT bring himself to kill family
>instead fucks off to Ach-To
Oh look, I just got us to the exact same point TLJ had him in and I didn't massacre his character. Now Luke has had to learn a much harder lesson, NOT EVERYONE CAN BE SAVED.

>WHAT WAS HE GOING TO TELL LEIA AND HAN?
you fucked your thread over capitalising queer.

>I just got us to the exact same point TLJ had him in
That’s the problem though. Luke shouldn’t be in that situation at all.

>That’s the problem though. Luke shouldn’t be in that situation at all.
I believe if you write a story well enough, you can take a character anywhere. I think Luke having to learn that sometimes you cannot save a person is a good lesson for him and something he hadn't ever faced before. This is a man who was willing to save his father from the darkness or die trying. Luke's weakness in the OT is that he COULD NOT get himself to kill his own father. Now imagine that, but with Ben. A character who could be written to be irredeemable and thus a chink in Luke's armor so-to-speak. I'm just saying IF they wanted Luke to be off on an island avoiding everyone, they needed to put forth the effort into explaining why. Instead, they didn't bother with an explanation, they just said, "Luke changed, accept it" which is incredibly lazy writing.

>capitalising
*capitalizing

>with a B

This guy gets it.

Imagine a story where Luke went into hiding because he realized he COULD NOT be the one to save the day this time because it would involve having to kill a family member. It would still get us to the point where TLJ begins and not completely rape his established character arc from the OT. Rian Johnson just wanted to subvert expectations, but didn't bother to put in the effort to make it match up with established characterizations. Having Luke decide to run away was a bold move, but saying it happened, "just 'cause" was fucking lazy.

>Luke having to learn that sometimes you cannot save a person is a good lesson for him
That was never an issue for Luke. His motivation was never about saving everyone. He just wanted to redeem his father, and prove that he himself was a good man like his father was deep down.

Trying to make sense of Last Jedi is a fool's errand. It's a nonsensical, horribly written clusterfuck of clashing ideas and tones that fucks the characters and lore beyond repair.

...

Luke left his Jedi training to save his friends. He was willing to die to save his father. Luke's whole thing is saving people.

Are you in the BVS thread?

It's called English for a reason Ameritard.

I'm honestly trying to figure out why Luke didn't say "LET'S GO KICK SOME ASS" and was ready to leave Ahch-To the instant he was told Han was dead.

>"What did you think was going to happen here? Did you think I was going to take my laser sword and take on the entire First Order by myself?"

Luke didn't seem to understand that Leia probably wanted his help specifically with Kylo and Snoke so the Resistance could take care of the rest of the Order themselves without having to worry about the Evil Space Magic Wizards.

Another giant problem with the script.

He also single handily killed a million people.

>"My hand slipped. Remember, you signed the liability waver."

Luke Skywalker is portrayed as a flawed human being who is capable of the same black and white morality choices that faced his father, and isn't shown as some immortal infinite power space wizard paragon of righteousness. Instead he experiences character development as he comes to grips with his own failures, and learns from them, making his failures part of his life lesson and experiencing catharsis, as his internalized battle is won and he simply moves on peacefully.
They draw a subtle parallel back to anakin skywalker's struggle and fall. Just because Luke blew up the emperor and faced his father didn't mean his own struggles were done and he was somehow now the perfect person

Because that's what you shitheads wanted: A gary stu, incapable of doing wrong, who would "never" make a flawed choice or feel anger or succumb to the dark side even for a second. You somehow think that when Luke Skywalker, who was tempted in his original trilogy and struck down the vaderbot in anger, is confronted with Baby Hitler and sees a future where billions of people will die all because of one child that has already passed to the dark side, that he wouldn't consider even for a moment whether he should strike him down then and there and save the galaxy. When the moral weight is so incredibly skewed to killing one person to save billions, and you think the guy who experienced the first empire and the heavy costs of its downfall, wouldn't be tempted?

See, that's wrong. I didn't have a problem with making Luke flawed. Having banished himself after fucking up Ben's training and creating Kylo Ren? That's great*. I pretty much liked all of Luke's stuff up to the scene with Yoda.

The problem is, is "Luke is flawed and he royally fucked up" is ALL we got. Yeah, make him flawed. He made a bad decision. He failed Ben. But at a certain point, he needed to suck it up and actually help out. Like Rey said, "Maybe we need a legend." His own sister was begging him to come back, and all he could do is "Nah, I fucked up. Also, I'm dead now."

I'm pretty sure people weren't wanting to see what happened after Return of the Jedi so they could see Luke fuck up beyond compare and then not really do anything to at least help try and fix his own mistake.

* I think they could have achieved basically the same thing without Luke being wildly out of character, but whatever.

>tfw still haven’t seen this movie
I feel out of the loop in some ways but I’ve heard enough that it sounds like such shit I’d rather wait for a dvd rip than pay to see it

I just realized that if he did kill Ben, he would've saved the Galaxy.

That's what I kept wondering.
>hey kids today's lesson will be on reading a wookie's sexual emotions. if you'll take out your books --
>master, where's Ben?
>he's sick. just stay away from his tent

>>"What's he sick with?"
>>"He has a severe case of shut the fuck up."

That's why he didn't do it you aspie.

>Let's say that Luke actually went through with killing Ben.

>>Hypothetical scenario

Checkeddit

>"Had to, trust me, Jedi business, very important."

Kek

>Luke has had to learn a much harder lesson

Why the fuck is a wise man still learning lessons at his age? What has he been doing all those years as a Jedi master?

>Why the fuck is a wise man still learning lessons at his age?
Yoda was still learning lessons at 900 years old. Age doesn't mean you're omnipotent.

People never start learning, you dumb nigger.

>People never start learning

Ok, then why he didn't try to fix his mistake?

>He was broken
Yeah, but he was also broken when he found out his actions let to his uncles getting killled. He was also broken when Obi Wan died without him doing anything to prevent it. He was also broken when he learned Darth Vader, the personification of evil in the galaxy, was his father. He was also broken when Yoda told him he would only be a Jedi when he kills Vader. And of course he was also broken when he actually TRIED to murder his father on his battle on the Emperor's room. None of this prevented him from getting his shit together and doing what was right in the end.

>This was bigger because he lost all his Jedi students.
He literally saw with his own eyes Darth Vader; a guy who killed kids with his own hands and literally with the same lightsaber he was using before losing his hand, who killed thousands of people across the years, who killed his own Padawan, and who almost killed Luke's very own mother; Redeem himself and do what's right. Why exactly was he different?

>He understood the Jedi were flawed and weren't actually needed to fight evil.
Okay fair enough. But then why didn't he go to fight, you know, AS A NOT-JEDI? I mean Han Solo, Leia, Finn, Grievous and many others, all have used a lightsaber to fight and they were not Jedi/Siths. Blindguy from Rogue One could use the force to his favor and he wasn't a Jedi. Jedi is just a fucking title that you were given for following the rules of an ancient religion. You don't have to be Jedi to do what's right. Isn't that what not only Vader but plenty of others, showed? Even Luke himself says so at his final appearance of Battlefront 2

>Empire guy: Of course there's conflict in me. I'm not blind. I know what the Empire is capable of. But what else is there?
>Luke: A choice.
>Empire guy: The rebellion?
>Luke: No. A choice to be better.

So yeah, You don't need the rebellion or the resistance or the Jedis, to be good and help.

What else?

The film makes out like Luke almost killing him is what turned him to the dark side

You're missing the point: the thing with Luke was also to give Kylo a reason for being as he is. It was as much about Kylo as Luke. They wanted a backstory that made him sympathetic, so this version never would have happened. The whole point is that Luke caused the death he foresaw. The implication is Ben may have never turned if Luke hadn't done what he did. He managed to hold off for years, after all, since it's implied that Snoke has been in his head since childhood.

true luke is a literal terrorist

He probably would've turned to the dark side himself.

He realized this and it scarred him to exile.

You're retarded

I honestly think Luke sacrificed himself to help save Ben just as much as to buy time for the Resistance. I think Luke began to see his failures after talking to Yoda. And if there was any chance to saving Ben, he couldn't let him kill off another relative.

He became a representation of the lesson to Kylo that trying to destroy everything that causes him pain gets him nowhere. He literally had Kylo slashing uselessly at thin air to drive the point home. That's why he uses the same line with Kylo that he did with Rey when he first agreed to teach her. He was trying to teach his nephew one last time. Until he fucks with him as a Force ghost at least. "See you around, kid."

people still would've moaned and bitch because you basically retread the same thing.

.....did you walk out of the movie in the last 10 minutes?

He wanted Luke to be better

luke was better until kathleen, rian and jj got their hands on him

No, I saw. Luke sent out a projection of himself to distract Kylo for a few minutes so the Resistance could get away.

1) He couldn't even get off his ass to do this - Literally, he was sitting down as he projected the hologram. He literally phoned in his assistance. He couldn't even be bothered to get up and actually GO to Leia and the Rebels to help them.

2) He did this one thing and then died/killed himself. Even with Rey inevitably training further and growing stronger, I'm pretty sure Luke's help will be needed by the Resistance more than this one time. Hell, had Luke actually left Ahch-To when Rey first tried to leave with him, the Resistance may have not even been in that position in the first place.

My fucking heart

Yoda bid his time so he could eventually train Luke or Leia, while Luke didn't want to train others at all.

He didn't have a plan, that was the whole fucking point. He considered it for a brief moment because he was overtaken by emotion

It's beautiful in his own way. Luke knew he couldn't save Kylo, so the only thing he could really do for his nephew at that point was to try to teach him a lesson and save him from killing more of his family. He even says he went there to face Kylo, so that was just as important as saving the Resistance.

That's the point, no matter what the entire new trilogy is Luke's fault. That's what makes it interesting.

I see why this would be a hard concept for you considering you never started learning in the first place.

How the hell did Disney manage to make a less coherent story with more fanfictiony characters than the EU?

>someone actually watched the movie

Don't you know better than to give the mouse money?

They don't give you enough information to make a judgment either way. The whole "BUT LUKE WOULDN'T DO THAT!" crybabies don't have enough information to go on. People who say his actions were totally justified also don't have enough information to go on.

Maybe it's in the fact that the original cut was over 3 hours long, maybe it's just shitty writing, but he doesn't give Rey any details at all about what actually happened, only cliffnotes.

For all we know Ben Solo really was evil incarnate. Maybe the good that Luke sensed in Darth Vader wasn't there in Ben. The dude does drive a lightsabre though his own dad's stomach while he's just trying to bring him home. He does seem like kind of a piece of shit.

Maybe Luke could foresee the Starkiller base murdering billions of people. Maybe after 30 years have passed and all the struggling and death that went into overcoming the Empire, he had a moment of doubt when confronted by the possibility of all of that happening again.

The biggest thing I don't get about everyone crying over this is that he doesn't fucking do it. He activates his lightsaber, realises that what he's contemplating his wrong, and doesn't fucking do it. Are you pussies seriously telling me that this character wouldn't even have a negative thought enter his head? Get a grip.

He beats the ever loving shit out of darth vader and chops off his arm before he finally gets a grip on himself and changes his mind about killing him. That was his own father. All he did here was THINK that maybe it would be for the best if this evil piece of shit kid just died, and still he doesn't go through with it.

You're right, we don't have enough information. Maybe Disney should have given us enough information. Instead of "Finn and Rose's Casino Horse Adventure."

Holy hell my friend. Welcome to eastern religion. I'm honestly surprised that people can be so close to this series while utterly ignoring the themes it's about and was based on.

I fucking hate self fulfilling prophecies shit. They should have let Snkoe corrupt the shit out of Ben instead making Jake a dindu.

>What was he going to tell his other students? >WHAT WAS HE GOING TO TELL LEIA AND HAN?
I was cleaning my lightsaber and it went off.

>The First Order attacked the temple and kidnapped Ben.
>Luke spends years looking for him.
>By the time he finds his nephew, he's become a villain.
>Now too old and feeble to stop him, Luke rescinds himself to the temple, distraught that he could not save his nephew from the fate that consumed his own father.

>I need everything to be clearly and logically explained to me in order to understand

I think it was meant to be obscure of an explanation. The movie seems cut to imply that no one can really ever know what a person is like, when they're not completely honest with themselves. The final duel with Luke was a point where he realized he needed to participate, and sacrificed himself to teach a lesson to Kylo about being an enraged maniac. TLJ definitely goes out of its way to show each character in a wide range of morality.

Star Wars babies:

BUT LUKE IS A JEDI MASTER HOW COULD HE POSSIBLY NOT SAVE HIM THEY'VE RUINED EVERYTHING I'M NOT BUYING THE TOYS

Maybe he should have showed up before Luke decided to throw away years of his life while Ben fell further and further away from grace. Showing up right at the end with a told-you-so-I-did is fucking weak.

said babies are the one giving lots of shekels, so it's better to cater or not at least shit on them

You do realize that NOT leaving out huge chunks of story is not the same thing as "Over-explaining and holding your hand through the plot" and all that, right?

Surely if Empire Strikes Back had opened with Luke on the Dark Side, you'd want that shit properly explored, wouldn't you?

Absolutely not true. Disney has made their money. They may have made more by pandering to a different demographic than they did, but Disney is succeeding in selling this movie.

but they're killing the brand and their plans to keep milking it for the next 20 years

>Cave looks like a vaginal opening

what did they mean by this?

>>Cave looks like a vaginal opening
>what did they mean by this?

It meant the series was about to get fucked.

r u retard

They're selling to the same audience as they are with their regular Disney movies. People buy Star Wars for their kids the same way they buy Moana. You're right they're not handling it perfectly, but they're doing plenty fine.

That's not what happens here though. He has a moment of doubt when he senses the evil in Ben, and decides not to follow through with his moment of doubt.

If you need more back story and explanation than that you're a fucking child.

They're doing the opposite of that you dopey mong. Do you think Star Wars has the legs to keep going if all they ever do is fan service to 40+ year olds? They need to reboot it for a new audience.

Star Wars babies:

>Luke would never even THINK about killing Ben wow they've so totally fucked up his character, he sees the good in everyone and would never kill someone like that

>Waaah why did Luke project himself instead of going there in person, the ending would have been way better if he'd blown up all the First Order vehicles and killed everyone

...

They don't need to reboot for a new audience tho. Star Wars is still appealing to people, it just needed to be re-packaged and sold again.

Problem is, they can't figure out how to do that:
TFA was too obvious and every deviation was worse than what they were tracing.
TLJ was free-hand scribble with a few pieces of the old stuff cut out and stapled on.

What they need is to figure out why the old films were special and do something in the same vein, not copy the superficial things and let the core rot. And that's pretty easy to do because there's thirty years worth of analysis they can use.
But that would require some level of passion, so we got this shit.

so how did that vagina end up there? did they told to some worker guy "hey i want, like, a vagina-like stone cave" or they randomly found it and decided to put in?

>Let's buck these old dudes with disposable income and built in loyalty and exclusively appeal to an audience that won't even spend 99 cents to buy a song, there's no way this will go wrong!

You're damn right I need more than that. Luke said he had sensed the darkness in Ben before (though not as strongly as that night). Did he discuss it with Ben? Had he tried to un-Darkify him to no avail? Did he discuss it with Han and Leia? What did Luke's other students think about all this? Did they even know? Did Ben have a friend or girlfriend at the temple? Were any of the other students jealous of Ben's familial connection to Luke? Why does he hate Han and Leia in the first place when Luke was the one that "tried to kill" him? Did he tell them and they didn't believe him and took Luke's side? Why did Snoke choose Ben to corrupt? The other students that joined Ben as he left, did they join out of fear or because they believed in him? Shit, what the hell was Ben even like before that night? Was he a good kid who Luke scared into joining the Dark Side, or was he a total fucking asshole who needed very little convincing?

These aren't unimportant bits of trivia, this could literally be a movie unto itself. Just because we know "Well, Luke is gone and Kylo is a not quite-Sith by the time of TFA" doesn't mean that the beforehand information isn't important.

>have parent's meeting like any school
>"Those whose son didn't die here step forward. Sis, Han, step back."

shitting on the movie is fine.
shitting on what rian did with luke and crying character assassination is omission of having a brain.

A complete lack of worldbuilding and context is the calling card of Disney’s Star Wars. They’re not trying to tell a story, they’re making fire and forget media events. The same issue you’ve exhaustive detailed is present in almost every aspect of the universe, but none so unforgivable as the unexplained dynamics between the First Order and the New Republic

>wants to train Luke
>lol he's too old

I wouldn’t call it character assassination. It doesn’t retroactively change the character. What I will call it is bad storytelling, poorly justified within the context of the two movies, wasted potential, and just dumb in general.

I can answer a few on these based on information we have from the movies, visual dictionaries, official databank, and word of mouth from actors/directors. The students likely joined Kylo because they believed in him or Snoke had corrupted them too. They're obviously the Knights of Ren, so they weren't hostages.

Ben was probably a normal/good kid but Snoke had gotten his claws in him early on, before Luke agreed to train him. Then once Ben started training, Snoke was actively influencing him to counter Luke's teachings. At least that's what this entry from the official Star Wars databank suggests.

If anything, since we know Snoke was influencing Ben since childhood, Ben was being strong and fighting off the fall until Luke did what he did. When Luke gave up on Ben, he gave up on himself.

He doesn't hate Han and Leia, as he states aloud himself. We know that he resented them because he felt neglected as a kid and Leia in particular chose duty over him a lot. And then he probably also blames them for forcing him into Luke's training, which then turned out to be a living nightmare for him. Wouldn't you resent the parents who sent you to someone who then tried to murder you in your sleep (or so you think), especially if you had reservations about going to that person before?

Snoke chose Ben to corrupt because of his Skywalker blood. He believed he could craft another Vader and that only a Skywalker could kill Luke. This is all either in TLJ or in its Visual Dictionary.

This... this is hard to disagree with

To add to this, I think they're purposefully saving up a lot of Kylo's backstory and time with Luke for a novel or comic or series once the ST is over. This feels very deliberate to me.

Unrelated question, do you believe it’s okay for this information to be spread across multiple mediums? Kylo is the deuteragonist of this new trilogy and we have very little information related to his training/fall. While I find his struggle interesting, I also find him to be a very thin character

fucking kek a story for another time right?

I don't think he was planning on killing Ben
He said it was an act of pure instinct after sensing Snoke's influence / Ben's darkness

They did fuck Luke up pretty bad, but the annoying thing is it's not even really justifiable because his storyline is just convoluted and stupid. Same way the whole movie is convoluted and stupid. It's badly written, unintelligent garbage really.

I don't find him thin in the least and we don't need to know every detail of his backstory, but I won't argue with the idea that we could have used more details of his past.

I feel like the movies gave us the gist of it, though: Snoke was influencing Kylo to the dark side before Luke even realized it and Luke made a grave mistake that traumatized Ben and ultimately drove him to the dark. Rey even spells that out with the "you made his choice for him" bit. You get a sense of what Snoke was doing to Kylo through his interactions with both Kylo and Rey and his pride over knowing every thought in Kylo's head and believing in Kylo's undying loyalty to him. We also know that Kylo felt disappointed by his parents based on TFA, but he also loved them. He also believes that his love and fear make him weak, so he tries to destroy those things to get stronger but it doesn't work. Now he seeks to destroy everything he perceives as hurting him and build anew, and believes he's in the right because those factions have done him and others wrong.

>Baby Hitler
Oh, now it makes complete sense.

Luke's characterization is the least of the problems with TLJ. He thinks he's failed in resurrecting the Jedi Order, failed his nephew, failed Leia and Han Solo, and all his students who either died or followed Kylo Ren to the dark side.

He sees himself as repeating the same mistakes born of arrogance as the Jedi Order that was destroyed by the Empire.

The movie sucks at explaining many things, but how Luke wound up where he does isn't the one of those things.

Like dying from using his force projection was stupid though.