Real talk here

Real talk here
No memes allowed, just serious discussion
Let's settle this once and for all. Who was THE traitor?

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George Lucas. He betrayed his legacy, his fans and himself, and when the totality of the consequences of his betrayal were fully realized he sold out to the white slavers.

Mace.

He betrayed his Jedi principals in the one moment where he absolutely should have followed them.

Uhh, probably the guy who lied to billions of beings while orchestrating a brutal war all just to increase his own power.

Sheev figuratively did nothing wrong until after Maces Death Squad hit his room because the death squad justifies his actions.

but that was all in line with his ideology. its mace who broke the rules

Windu stormed into Palpatines office off hours in secret to arrest him, without telling anyone but jedi. He was staging a coup of jedi against the republic. He went about it wrong, he did act in a traitorous way going against what others in the republic might thing and the law. He should have waited and arrested him publicly if he did not resign his powers. Windu fucked up and did act in his own interests and not in favor of democracy.

HE
IS THE TRAITOR
AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH

the uppity bald [Shaft!] was rude

>redpills your narrative.

both, windu betrayed the republic and the jedi by continuing to turn the jedi into some sort of secret police, and by attempting to kill someone who had surrendered, against jedi rules. Sheev obviously betrayed the republic by orchestrating the separatist movement.

a
sith
lord
?

Mace
he arrested Palpatine with no stated reason

>No memes allowed
it's treason then

sheev was never loyal to the republic, its the republic who failed itself by allowing itself to fail based on its own principles

and he only needed to kill billions

>doesn't inform anyone in the jedi circle
>goes with a few men to tackle the greatest threat and leader of the senate
>tried to kill him

You know now that I think about it, Anakin doesn't really want to fight Obi Wan at first
He even says "don't make me kill you" and only starts attacking after Kenobi ignites his saber

sheev claimed to be loyal to the republic. Whether or not you think he did nothing wrong, he still betrayed them

>Who was THE traitor?
These movies are actually deeper than they seem.

too weak to wank
don’t let me get Blacked, Sup Forums
I have the power to make your mother immortal

How many non-clones died in the clone wars? Certainly not billions, there weren't even that many clones

>droids and clones made up most of the casualties
>jedi extremists taken out
>corrupt niemodians taken out
>only other casualties were lowlife bounty hunters.
>entire galaxy united
Sheev really did nothing wrong.

>He betrayed his legacy, his fans and himself

He literally got bullied out of filmmaking by his shitty fans who ripped on him for every single thing he tried to do, so he sold out and retired.

And now said shitty fans are getting exactly what they asked for, so enjoy. You did this.

Obi-Wan also lied to Padme when he told her he saw a security hologram of Anakin killing younglings (unless he watched that footage offscreen). Obi-Wan and Yoda pretty much just unilaterally decide that Anakin has to die based on flimsy evidence, just as Mace decided Palpatine had to die. Anakin was the only Jedi who actually believed in rule of law.

>it's another 'we pretend the prequels weren't dogshit' episode

Don't forget based SHEEV demolished the (((banking clans)))

a monarchy wouldnt have this problem, all sheev did was eliminate weakness and inefficiency

>Obi-Wan also lied to Padme when he told her he saw a security hologram of Anakin killing younglings
Never thought about this. Lying and manipulating people is definitely in-line with kenobi's character.

>lied to padme to justify killing vader
>lied to luke to get him to kill vader
Poetry

Anakin killed kids in cold blood, nothing lawful about that

it would have been great if Lucas had managed it so Anakin committed genuine atrocities that were still technically within the rule and letter of the law but sadly that's beyond Lucas' writing ability.

>it's another "whiny fanboy manchildren who are literally impossible to make happy whine some more" episode

Enjoy the next exciting 20 episodes of Star Wars, crafted with love and daring and absolutely not by a committee of suits trying to extract every single last shekel from the property

mace
like anakin said "is not the jedi way"

>t. disney damage control shill

>complains I'm too hard to please
>meanwhile complains about the new films

TELL ME ABOUT WINDU
WHY IS HIS LIGHTSABER PURPLE

it was for the better

he didn't set up a proper monarchy though, he didn't give a rats arse about succession

if you want an actual example of someone destroying a republic for the good of the nation the greatest example is Augustus

I'm not complaining -- I'm enjoying watching Star Wars fanboys get exactly what they wanted, and how unhappy it makes you

banes legacy is succession perfected, no weak heirs, no child kings, only rule by the strongest and most competent

>whiny fanboy manchildren
The prequels were largely panned by critics too.

But I am happy. I've enjoyed every SW film to date besides The Last Jedi. I loved the prequels as a child (and still do because of nostalgia) but I can recognize that they're horrible films.

The prequels weren't perfect, but neither was the OT. The prequels tried to be deep with the political angle that was absent from the OT except for the five-minute segment in the Death Star's conference room.
I guess the justification was that the Jedi were trying to overthrow the Republic, so they had to die.

>lied to billions of beings
If he was capable of mass mind manipulation/clouding, why did he bother going through these channels to acquire power?

mastery of the dark side does not automatically make for good rulers though
in fact the reason Sheev managed to be the one sith lord to come within inches of wiping out the jedi was because he happened to be a great politician in addition to his other skills

No film is perfect, and the OT had plenty of flaws but didn't feel awkward, had comprehensible plots and didn't look terrible.

>The prequels were largely panned by critics too.

???

>I loved these films
>but they're horrible

Film hipsterism claims another victim

>he is the trader AAAAHH
How did Mace know that Sheev was the one behind the Trade federation?

Because he was supposedly the only Jedi who could tap into the dark side without letting it take control over him, which seems hypocritical since the Jedi Council forbade any other Jedi from studying the dark side.

For fun. Sheev liked having a good time.

>without letting it take control over him
Except it did moments before he died.

At least Prince Xizor and C-3PX got retconned

>Film hipsterism
The 'hipster' position is that the prequels were amazing.

Xixor was based

>The 'hipster' position is that the prequels were amazing.

The hipster position is that they're shit, when in fact they're flawed but heartfelt films made by an autist

He had to do it quick before the Vong invaded.

>the OT had plenty of flaws but didn't feel awkward, had comprehensible plots and didn't look terrible.
Vader's character is different in each of the three movies (could be a good or bad thing depending on your opinion). There is the awkward split timeline in ESB of Luke training on Dagobah vs the other characters flying from Hoth to Bespin seemingly instantly. ROTJ also has a standalone first act that doesn't have any bearing on the rest of the film, except for Han Solo being rescued.

>I guess the justification was that the Jedi were trying to overthrow the Republic, so they had to die.
even then he went from morally conflicted to killing kids in 5 minutes

it's just yet another symptom of just how rushed his entire arc was and honestly cheap shock value of having him kill kids like that.
Honestly the threshold moment of him killing a "youngling" could have been combined with the later scene where the young jedi dies holding off the clone troopers
have that same scene play in the jedi temple with one or maybe a couple 12y old something padawans protect something important (ancient jedi documents/their wounded master etc) from the clones and doing an okay job
and then in comes anakin to finish the job

>ROTJ also has a standalone first act that doesn't have any bearing on the rest of the film, except for Han Solo being rescued.
One of the main characters being rescued and resolving a subplot that had been in the previous two films and drove the entire motivation of the character isn't a scene with 'no bearing'

Also the first act shows us that Luke is now an actual jedi and his powers have grown

The scene would have been so much more epic if it were on top of a building or something. It looks like it took place in a conference room.

I agree that it probably could have been handled better, like in the scenario you described, but I think the biggest problem with Anakin going from morally conflicted to killing kids in five minutes is that he is acting according to in-universe logic rather than real-life logic. In order to become more powerful in the dark side to save Padme from dying, he has to commit more and more heinous acts like murdering kids and the Separatist leaders. Palpatine sort of references this in passing when he orders him to attack the Jedi Temple, but it's not really explained very well. I actually think TFA did a better job of conveying to the audience how the dark side works when Kylo Ren was ordered to murder his father. It's like a cult initiation thing.
I mean it didn't have any effect on the climax of the film. Han Solo barely did anything on Endor except spend 20 minutes with Leia trying to get a door open.

>I mean it didn't have any effect on the climax of the film.
I disagree. I think Han and Leia getting together was a big payoff, and Han's fate in general was what everyone was worried about after Empire. Han was super popular.

>Luke is now an actual jedi and his powers have grown
I think at that point, Luke was only using the Jedi to his own ends. He was doing things unbecoming of a Jedi (force choking Jabba's guards, threatening to murder everyone in the room, etc.) His main purpose at that point was to rescue his friends and his father, even though Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted him to forget about his friends and complete his training so he could kill his father.

>yfw you realize the lesson of the two trilogies is that the Jedi are idiot assholes

>nukes alderaan
>inb4 hurr durr it was a rebel base

He was definitely making flagrant use of the Force on some serious Dark Side shit at the beginning of the film, but it's nice, because by the end of it, he's an exemplary Jedi.

>clone wars
I think he realized that both the Jedi and the Emperor wanted him to kill his father, which would have cemented his place in the dark side. Luke was more of a true Jedi than Yoda and Obi-Wan at that point.

Vader did that, not palps

>it's ok to plot a coup and killing some guys if you install a dictatorship and carry on genocide on planetary level
no
also star wars doesn't have this many moral subtleties.
it's the little good guy vs the big bad guy and the latter is modeled after the regime that became synonim for evil that carry on a very evil action in the first 30 min just to make clear that they're the baddies

Actually it was Tarkin.

Actually that was Grand Moff Tarkin's decision. Also it was a sparsely populated planet that was fomenting sedition and being used as a secret rebel weapons cache. Destroying alderaan is no worse than carpet bombing afghanistan.

>stars wars doesn't have this many moral subtleties
>even though you can point them out.

>Destroying alderaan is no worse than carpet bombing afghanistan.

wtf i hate america now

>literally a children fairy tale in space
no, it doesn't have gray morals anons. it's very simple good vs evil.
that's also why the prequels were lacking and with every film disney is going to shit out they will get worse: Star Wars doesn't work as a universe since it's really just a tale

Fuck off Mike, your brain has been rotted from too many bad movies

It doesn't work as a universe because more often than not people won't put in the effort to tell a fucking story. The prequels weren't lacking as stories; the sensibilities of its narrative were well in line Original Trilogy.

Every film Disney shits out is bad because there's a lack of effort and respect, and therefore there is a lack of soul.

>Star Wars doesn't work as a universe since its really just a tale.

The prequels were a tale too.

It does work as a universe. Look at the clone wars cartoons.

No, I know it CAN work, I said "more often than not" for a reason.

Hope you enjoyed The Last Jedi

>didn't look terrible
>it's another we all pretend practical effects from the 80s don't look like shit episode

pls tell me what is unique and worth telling in the star wars galaxy
there is nothing and the only reason the EU and everything else got created was because manchildren consumers thought: "dude lightsabers and force push are SO COOL"
in the OT there is very little saber combats and the force can be summed as religion, god, universe energy or wathever. Luke is the One, the guy that pull out the sword or killed the dragon or wathever.
it's not like the Greeks thought: "lmao this argonauts guys are pretty cool, lets make a GEU out of it"
why you guys can't just leave it as a trilogy and explore some other places ffs

a mediocre and underwhelming one. literally nothing of value would've been lost if it was a new franchise (other than billions at the box office)

no, they're fucking embarassing if you're older than 12

>there is nothing and the only reason the EU and everything else got created was because manchildren consumers thought: "dude lightsabers and force push are SO COOL"

Thrawn's trilogy literally sets up parameters so that Luke cannot use the Force at different segments. Even when he ignites his lightsaber, one character thinks he'll be useless without the Force. Also Force push first showed up in Episode 1. There are plenty of things to be done that don't necessarily involve the Jedi and the Sith.

>why you guys can't just leave it as a trilogy and explore some other places ffs

I would be completely fine leaving Star Wars as the original movie and its first two sequels; they're the only good ones, but the notion that it outright just doesn't work as a Universe is absurd. It had enormous potential.

The old clone wars cartoon was by the samurai jack team and thus brilliant by default, but the modern one is kino

m.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

...

>After the Galactic Civil War, the New Republic comes under siege by a fleet lead by one of the Empire's Grand Admirals. Although the conflict is brief, its impact is devastating.
>This conflict makes the New Republic realize the seriousness of the threat Imperial Remnant groups scattered throughout the stars pose to them.
>On the heels of this conflict, the New Republic establishes the Galactic Alliance Guard to police distant regions of space. Their primary objective: hunt down and destroy Imperial Remnants that are colluding to overthrow the Republic and restore the Empire.
>The Galactic Alliance Guard is given a wealth of privileges which, over the years, they quickly come to abuse. They become just as decadent and corrupt as the Old Republic, if not more so. It's not uncommon for them to beat prisoners, or even civilians who cross them. Largely in part they have little to no respect for the inhabitants of the worlds they occupy for their various military purposes.
>There is a public outcry against the brutality and corruption prevalent in the Galactic Alliance Guard but because they (for the most part) behave better when closer to the Core Worlds and have been doing a good job taking care of various Imperial Remnant cells, the New Republic dismisses these complaints basically as "shit happens on the job". They don't care about the farther reaches of the Galaxy, so the Galactic Alliance Guard can do whatever they want there.
>A young Jedi Knight and Republic Civil Servant Ben Solo is transferred to a GAG occupied world one day. He is unfortunate enough to witness a horrific beating. Possibly of an older character like Wedge or Ackbar. A figure of respect. Someone fans admire. A hero. Over the course of the next few days he becomes increasingly disillusioned with the GAG and the way the Republic lets them get away with what they do.
>(cont)

>but the notion that it outright just doesn't work as a Universe is absurd
let me tell you a secret. no expanded universe works from an artistical pov. they only work from a financial pov. both marvel and dc universe (comics) are fucking jokes. no ip can last longer than a trilogy and even in a trilogy the chances that the autor fuck up are incredibly high.
kubrick never planned about shooting 2002: Another Space Odyssey

>destiny is made by the team behind halo 3 thus brilliant by deafault.
also your clip is literally the "dude lightsabers and force push are SO COOL" i was talking about.
think about it. one is a guy sliced in half after having said 2 lines in a unnecessary prequel the other is called savage and the third is an octogenarian doing flips around the place.
swap out their faces and substitute the lightsaber+magic force with normal saber and normal magic and everything still work fine

>generic garbage
who the fuck is ben solo and why should i care and why should i spend my time on this shit instead of reading dune or watching alien

Did he technically do anything illegal?

> Enter a splinter cell of fighters (Viva Resistance); the military backbone of a political party quite possibly formed within the Republic. >They oppose the GAG.
>Ben Solo makes a choice to join up with the opposition in order to dismantle and destroy the GAG and liberate the Galaxy of their stranglehold. He is driven to do this because he believes that if the GAG isn't stopped eventually their corruption will spread to the center of the Galaxy and then things will be even worse than they are. And they are quite horrific under microscope.
>Ben Solo fights as the hero of the (Resistance).
>During this conflict, which ostensibly takes place in one corner of the Galaxy's outer territories, someone, somewhere else is plotting.
>A presence is organizing the Imperial Remnants scattered through space into a national body.
>He can sense Ben Solo's struggle.
>Ben Solo can feel him through the Force.
>He communicates with Ben. Giving him strength and resolve at various points during this conflict.
>Ben Solo grows closer and closer to the dark side in order to accomplish what he believes is right.
>At the urging of this entity, he learns more and more about his bloodline.
>At the urging of this entity, he adopts a knew identity. One that will, if not bring morale to his allies, strike fear into his enemies. The "death" of Ben Solo coincides with what the GAG quickly begins to fear as the second coming of Darth Vader.
>Towards the tail end of this conflict, the First Order arrives, an organized body of Imperial Remnants lead by Supreme Leader Snoke. They function separately from the independent state that the Empire became following the Galactic Civil War, but fully intend to go and take that over later for the full revitalization of the Empire.
>However, they may be getting military assistance from the aforementioned state in the same way the Resistance is getting military assistance from the Republic. This assistance may be unsanctioned.

>The First Order offers to team up with the Resistance to annihilate the corrupt GAG.
>The Resistance, for the most part is not on board with this.
>It's the turning point of the war.
>The First Order offers to help the GAG take care of the Resistance.
>It's the turning point of the war.
>A shaky three way alliance begins.
>The GAG gets played and scrubbed out by the Resistance.
>The Resistance has their numbers significantly reduced in the final battle.
>Kylo Ren leaves the Resistance and joins up with the First Order.
>Kylo Ren goes to confront Luke.
>The First Order starts laying into the Resistance.
>The Resistance runs away.
>The First Order plays it cool.
>Kylo returns with the Knights of Ren.
>The Resistance struggles to revitalize itself in the wake of this horrifying new superpower that has come out of nowhere and which they have assisted in ridding of their opposition. With no GAG, it's up to them to oppose the First Order.

There. It's a better more thought provoking story than the sequel trilogy is working with, and it doesn't even supplement those films, it's basically just an expansion (with slight revisions) of what's already there.

It's a matter of effort and imagination.

yeah but you can just call luke joe and have more freedom in creating a new universe without fucking with an already closed story.

But the point is, there's potential for stories there.

I absolutely agree in thinking that it's better to make something original, but to say that there's no potential for it to work as a Universe is stupid. People just need to put love, care, respect, and vision into moving the timeline forward instead of treading backwards or taking a deuce on the past.

but why when you can do a better story and don't risk to ruin the old one. the only reason is brand recognition. and since i don't have any disney stocks my opinion is that both the prequels and the sequels were fully avoidable

>I'm such an autist I can't tease out the obvious subtext in choriography