What went wrong?

What went wrong?

Nothing. You can't make him appeal to casuals and retards without changing what makes him a good character and sets him apart.

Only problem is he's not currently on the JLA, which he should be, regardless of whether he's a founder or not.

>I'll just reach into Johns's mind and make him mandate that I get brought ba-YEEEEEEEARGH

I liked his new 52 run even if it was kind of a mess, but it was a fun mess.

Too many powers (in terms of raw ability he could 1v1 anyone in the League) meant that they had to make him job harder than Superman jobs to kryptonite. And boy does this green nigger job.

Which is a pity, because I like him when he's just wandering around being philosophical.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH

>green superman

who gives a shit lol

On paper, he's hands-down the most powerful member the Justice League has, and should be able to easily solo basically any threat they face.

In practice, he jobs constantly precisely because he's too powerful to reliably write in to team fights in a believable way.

This. And retards need to quit posting about their ideas of "revamping" him and not realizing that all of these ideas have already been done before because they didn't actually read any of J'onn's comics.

Why don't they just nerf his strength? Make him a lot weaker but keep his phasing and telea shit while making him more vulnerable? So he has to be more a sneak attacker

Will we ever see him in the movies?

Because his ability to fight isn't the point.

>>I will attempt to make telepathic contac-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

It's a big part of the problem, user.

So then nerfing him shouldn't matter much to his character and would allow people to be more willing to use him

He just doesn't sell. None of the people who complain even brought his DC you series.

>he's too overpowered
>then nerf him
>him being overpowered isn't the point
What did he mean by this?

Billy has the same problem. When first I learned what Shazam actually stood for I was dumbfounded that Captain Marvel ever loses. My reaction was: "So he's basically Superman, except he doesn't have a weakness to kryptonite, not only is not weak to magic, but is possibly the world's most powerful magic-wielder himself, and on top of that he's a super-genius, speaks every language, has super-intuition, photographic memory...". He really came off as a bit of a Sue. What on Earth is his weakness?

They just need to properly establish limits to his powers.
How much can he lift with his telekinesis?
What's the limit to his shapeshifting? How big or small can he get?
How far can he extend his telepathy before going YEAAAARGH?
Is his telepathy on at all times or does he shut it off (allowing others to catch him unawares)?
How strong is he? Does it just come from his telekinesis or is he naturally super-strong?
How vulnerable is he to physical assaults? Can he be hurt if caught by surprise, or does he instinctively adjust, making him immune to any concusive force?

Because he doesn't need the strength. He can just mind fuck his enemies into thinking they're fighting him, and while they're under that illusion he can stop them. His strength is also a result of his shapeshifting ablities anyways.

So nerf that a bit then

It's not that he has too many powers, it's that he's not a strong enough character to helm a 60-issue series.

It's not the point, it's the problem. As people have pointed out, he's telepathic, shapeshifting, density-shifting Superman. He shouldn't have any issue simply powering through obstacles or challenges.

Nerf what and why?

That's what they need to do, yeah, but DC can barely keep Clark's powers consistent, much less J'onn's.

The only halfway convincing weakness I've ever seen is when someone controls his mind or forces him to say his word. The former made Kingdom Come creepy as fuck.

What sets him apart?

nerf his telepathy so he can only gather surface thoughts and make minor short illusions

Except that he is. He had a 36 issue or so ongoing written by Ostrander and drawn by Mandrake.

No. That's fucking retarded and removes any conflicts he feels about overstepping his boundarys as a telepath.

How? Listening to surface thoughts is still pretty fucked up even if he can't dig deeper

Then give him mind reading (unless the person has a more powerful mind than him) but not mind control/mind fucking (at least not combat-applicable mind fucking, like maybe he can do so to one person at a time given the person holds still for a while).

No, because the point is he's extremely powerful but pacifistic. That's why in latter years of the JLA he's primarily written as someone who stays on the watchtower and only fights when he absolutely has to and is more of a support.

If you make him less powerful, it ruins that. If you take away his power then he's just like every other hero.

This only is a "problem" in events and crossovers where fighting is the only thing that matters, which is fine because not every character has to be suited to that type of thing.

Even as a fan of the character I'd agree with this. He's had quite a few great takes but I don't need to see that done over and over again. J'onn doesn't need to be the center of a constant stream of stories like Superman, that's not the type of character he is.

All superheroes are powerful and at first thought should be able to "power" through anything, yet writers never have problems coming up with things for Superman or Flash to do.

How about instead of changing the powers trying to make it easier to write less creative stories for him, you just change the writers?

Because clearly that hasn't worked since he's been around for decades.

Look nerfing him isn't as big of a deal as you guys are claiming. Superman has been nerfed big time since the days he was slinging around planets so what's the big deal with giving John a small nerf as well?

Or just nerf him. As it stands there's literally no reason he shouldn't beat everyone before the rest of the League gets a chance. Unless he's stupid. The only people who would be able to resist Superman-level strength combined with mind fucking are people who are both as strong/stronger than Superman and more mentally powerful than Martian Manhunter. Which is what, like four villains? Why does he need mind-fucking powers again?

For someone who claims he's not OP and his power doesn't matter you're remarkably reluctant to nerf your pet character in any way.

What was the last solo book J'onn had? I just remember him being a complete asshole in New 52 and on one of the JL books

lso, his transformation is a spell, and spells can be broken, so while he can't be punched to death, doctor fate and the lot could all take him. His weakness is still magic, like superman, just in a different way.

>Superman hasn't had any good runs since he's been nerfed.
>You're a fucking newfag and shouldn't have an opinion.

Ostrander, Dematties, and Gerad Jones all managed to work with his powerset.

user, I want you to reread my post.

I was literally saying that supes being nerfed hasn't made him shit so why would it be a big deal if they nerfed John as well.

Like Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Flash, some jacaksses just can't stop sucking his green cock regardless of how little sense it makes in or out of universe. I'm really sick of these alien motherfuckers with nigh every power the writer can throw at the wall. He has Superman+ tier superhuman strength, optic blasts, durability, flight, regeneration, shape-shifting, intangibility, invisibility, telepathy, telekinesis, mind control, extrasensory input, astral projections, and Jesus pick a fucking lane. Especially since at worst he is an average example and at best a extraordinary example of his species. But either way, it means more contrivance to keep them from taking over the whole setting.

People except this with Superman (who funnily enough is nowhere near this OP) for two reasons. One, because it's Superman, everyone knows who he is so he gets the grandfather clause. Two, Superman is meant to be the most powerful being on Earth by far, the one always meant to fight the biggest bad guy; he's basically a Messiah. The only people who should be matching or surpassing his power are a few of his villains, who people are also generally willing to accept because their status justifies their enormous power (e.g. Brainiac is the most intelligent being in the universe and a cyborg who's destroyed thousands of worlds and is often a League-level threat, Darkseid is the literal God of Tyranny and slaughterer of trillions and also a League-level threat, Mongul is a galactic conqueror with Warworld). Martian Manhunter by contrast is just some dude.

Because they already nerfed him.

Well clearly it wasn't enough if people STILL don't know what to do with him.

>yet writers never have problems coming up with things for Superman or Flash to do.

Mentality like that is why Flash writers keep spitting out new evil speedsters.

And the Green Lanterns are just "some dudes".

Because they're shitty writers.

Jones' mini wasn't a canon story and only featured a fraction of his powers.

It should also be noted that Billy gains wisdom, not intelligence, when he transforms.

Or maybe he's just a shit character and there's a reason no one gives enough of a fuck to try and make him work

He doesn't sell for 2 reasons imo:
1) He jobs constantly. This has been covered so I'll leave it at that.
2) He's too quiet and standoffish. He is as silent and brooding as Batman, but he doesn't get Batman's extensive screentime, supporting cast, well-defined personality, etc. to complement the quiet and the brooding. So he ends up being the quiet guy on the team who stands off in the corner not building any interesting interpersonal relationships until the villain shows up, at which point he jobs like a pussy.

People like winners and MM just isn't ever written as a winner.

>he's just a shit character
There aren't any shit characters. You just lack creativity.

They're space police which gives them some justification for their power

Because aside from Ostrander, there's never been a writer who's made J'onn his own like Moore did for Swamp Thing or Morrison did for Animal Man.

And J'onn is a Martian police officer. That's why he has the title of Manhunter.

So can't they just do more MIB shit with J'onn with the occasional CIS/Detective shit?

Martian Manhunter: The Others Among Us

They're basically gods and there's only two of them for every million galaxies.

"Because he's a Martian, he must be a cosmic hero" - Comic Writers

Yeah they should make him like a sci-fi equivalent of John Constantine or something. More of a low key hero who operates in the shadows against sneaky sci-fi villains while the Feds hunt him down mistakenly thinking he's the real threat.

Thing is, I can't see why he'd let the Feds waste their time chasing a Leaguer.

Captain Marvels power level is off the charts but he is weak to mind control and even with the wisdom of soloman he is still a little kid which can believeably be written in as a reason he is defeated in various situations.

His lack of good stories makes him perfect for Sup Forumsntrarians who feel superior for liking characters that no one else does.

You're like the designer who blames the customer for not understanding your amazing product.

Honestly, I just can't get past his fundamental appearance. In any design. Big green bald martian and spandex and a cape. And his name, too. Just everything about his brand is so damn unmarketable post-atomic-age. He's a great character, personality, backstory, powers and limitations and everything. But you just can't sell that shit with a visage that... wrinkly.

Fire as a weakness is also pretty lame. Even with the reasonable justification that it's massively psychological, it's just FAR too convenient of a plot device.

I was thinking more of a solo run where other DC heroes and the League are greatly downplayed, if they're mentioned at all. He needs a financially successful solo run on his record, and despite many attempts he still doesn't have one.

Realistically though, he's probably going to just be phased out of the DC character roster altogether. They even wrote him out of the popular new fighting game that Sup Forums is currently excited about.

>there's only two of them for every million galaxies.
Shit is that really the ratio? That makes the number of Earth Lanterns downright comical. I knew it was heavily skewed but that's ridiculous. It'd the equivalent of if every cop in the country patrolled one house in Detroit.

Well you have to remember that The Guardians police the entire universe, and given their 1 Lantern per sector rule, the beats have to be pretty large

>His lack of good stories
There's no reason to lie

He's a child, and mentally has all the strengths and weaknesses that come with it. So while he's guaranteed to never cross any sort of line, he can easily be outsmarted. Also it helps that his villains are also broken as fuck.

He was DLC in Injustice 1.

I think that more to the point is that his recent solo series, and even going back to the Ostrander one, do a terrible job of giving him a normal context in how he functions. He has no supporting cast, no central location, and one recurring villain.

The oversized collar, buccaner boots and beetle brow give him a distinct look.

>People like winners

Yeah, and no one ever roots for the underdog, amirite?

>He has no supporting cast, no central location, and one recurring villain.
Give him Hub City

There's a difference between rooting for the underdog that you hope can beat the greater threat, and just constantly sticking around to see someone lose.

Specifically it's 2 per sector out of 3,600 sectors (7,200 Lanterns total)... in the UNIVERSE. According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe. 100,000,000,000 / 7,200 = 13888888. So it's more like one Lantern per 14 million galaxies.

He fought Darkseid to a draw and has soloed the JL.

So has everyone.

They like underdogs, not quiet guys with little screentime who consistently lose to people significantly weaker than them for no good reason.

Yeah, that's why I think it would be cool to put him in a solo run that follows his early life on Earth working as a detective. It could be a period piece type of thing where he does paranormal investigations during the 40s and 50s. He would really need to have his extensive power set trimmed down and nerfed to make it work, but that needs to happen anyway.

So what's the problem here?
It could be a period piece type of thing where he does paranormal investigations during the 40s and 50s
So American Secrets?

expanding on this, there are about 100 billion stars in a galaxy, meaning that one lantern patrols 1,388,888,800,000,000,000 systems. According to the NASA, approximately 40 billion of the 100 billion stars in our galaxy have Earth-sized planets in the habital zone. Even if we assume that only 1% of these planets go on to develop advanced life, and that those populations are no greater than Earth's, then each Lantern is in charge of 38,888,886,000,000,000,000,000,000, or almost 40 septillion beings.

>a solo run that follows his early life on Earth
That doesn't solve anything since it's set in the past.

I just headcanon it that at a certain point civilizations are capable of handling their own affairs and use the GLC as auxiliary forces when necessary. The bulk of GLC operations are in less developed regions of space who lack the technological edge to properly defend against interstellar threats.

>How to "fix" J'onn
De-power him a *little*. His strength and flight are now a part of his telekinesis. Physically he's actually kind of fragile.

His ability to shape change and disguise is actually based on martian technology that creates ILLUSION, bolstered by his mind powers

Less "I will now attempt to meld with his mi-AAAAGGGHHHH", but similarly he can't just mind control everyone

His vulnerability to fire is physiological, but his extreme reaction to it is PTSD linked to the wars that destroyed his planet and family, visa vie the thermic weapons the Martians destroyed themselves with

His wide range of skills let him assist the other league members in their specialties, being able to help protect superman from mind control, help batman with technology and detective work, and help Green Lantern with extra-terrestrial threats.

He should also be the most cool-headed, with the most long term view of things given his age. So he' the one giving the paternal advice she never had to Wonderwoman, counciling Superman on how to deal with being an alien on earth, talking to GL about staying connected to his home, and talking to Bruce about opening up to others. He's the team Dad.

Good point. But how do we give him a strong solo context in the modern era where he spends all of his time with the League or some other team?

I think there is a real possibility that we might have just missed the window where he could have been given a strong foundation to stand on independent of his JL affiliation. DC probably thinks, and is probably right, that it's easier to just create a new character or use a really obscure character who can be built from scratch rather than try to resuscitate MM for the umpteenth time.

He had a good and creative run recently. Ostrander, Jones and Dematteis have written good stuff with him. His good to bad ratio is pretty positive. Where do you get the notion that writers don't know what to do with him?

Williams' recent run was good and very different from your average capeshit.

He should also be the oldest operating superhero, under various guises, predating Wonder Woman who disappeared too quickly for him to contact. If not a founding member of the Justice League, he should be the one to approach THEM, and be like "sup, I see you've been doing this shit".

He can also provide their satellite HQ and teleportation technology by combining clarks Kryptonian shit with leftover martian junk and Amazonian magitech.

This is where he'll be most of the time, in the Watch-Tower, being liason between the other members via his telepathic abilities. Plus the fact he probably doesn't need to sleep in the way we understand it.

>He should also be the oldest operating superhero, under various guises, predating Wonder Woman who disappeared too quickly for him to contact. If not a founding member of the Justice League, he should be the one to approach THEM, and be like "sup, I see you've been doing this shit".
He was.

And how many contain life?

Also, the DC universe is smaller than ours thanks to having the Source Wall.

>And how many contain life?
I took that into consideration when I said that 1% of habitable planets have advanced life.

Despite what a lot of people here on Sup Forums think, there have been extended periods where J'onn isn't a current member of the League or he simply functions as a regular member. Him being prominent in the League is no different than any other hero with a solo being on the League.

As for a solo series, make him private detective who focuses on the "weird" stuff. DCU Earth is full of weird science, the paranormal, aliens, and conspiracies, and John Jones is your go to guy if mundane investigations turn up nothing. Bring back Diane Meade as his partner, and Miss Martian as his surrogate daughter.

Make his powers a tradeoff. He can shapeshift, and has limited super-strength/-durability which he can reinforce through telekinesis. But if he's using his mental powers to fly or beef himself up he can't access his telepathy; likewise he won't be able to maintain the concentration needed to use his mental powers if he's actively shapeshifting. His intangibility/invisibility is straight up biotech and he can't use any other power while using those two. His weakness isn't actually fire, but rather rapid temperature changes provoke a reflexive survival mechanism in his shapeshifting.

>Where do you get the notion that writers don't know what to do with him?
From all the fans of him bitching about the writers not doing anything with him?

How are they co related? DC doesn't give him any solos because they know that he doesn't sell.

This sounds good. Having to concentrate on one power at a time to make it work is one of the better ways of nerfing him that I've seen suggested.

Most of the "exact same character, but younger and maybe the opposite sex" characters like Supergirl, Wonder Woman's various younger offshoots, et al. tend to be boring or even actively undermine the point of the main hero. How would Miss Martian be made to fit into his story without being lame and redundant?

She's his actual niece. Mars isn't dead, it's dying. Trapped in decaying underground cities the White Martians, formerly the military caste, are scapegoated frequently and used as a punching bag when tensions in society get too high. Unlike J'onn, who was teleported to Earth accidentally, M'gann was part of a conspiracy to use homebuilt teleporter technology to escape to Earth.

Plastic Man is better in every single way

>All this power level faggotry in this thread.
Does Sup Forums even read or watch anything but capeshit and Chinese cartoons?

>How much can he lift with his telekinesis?
The telekinesis part is that one power that feels somehow too much.
>What's the limit to his shapeshifting?
That's a good question. I always wondered if his shapeshifting ability
Ies are in context with his physical strength to that point were if his shapeshift abilities had no limits than would his physcal strength also be limitles?

The guys whole shtick is being an outsider. That can not work in a world that praises all kinds of metahumans including a pile that are just as monstrous looking as him or worse.

Nothing

This sounds like a good start but the whole "fire as his weakness" issue should stay as this kind of pyrophobie that depowers him because his mind is the engine that controls his powers and not really a physical weakness like kryptonite.

M'gann should be half white and half green martian to give her more issues like both sides wouldn't fully accept her and the only Martian besides her parents (who probably got killed) who does accept her is her uncle J'onn.