Now that the dust has settled

We can all agree that Cap was [spoilers]right[/spoilers], right?

TRY AGAIN OP

CTRL+ s Retard
also

He was right in the big picture

Because look what happened. Accountability doesn't mean dick when it's so easy to manipulate people.

He was wrong though, this movie made me kinda hate him

Of course he was, especially since Tony had zero conviction in the first place.
He only backed the accords because he felt guilty because the mom, worse yet his actions only sought to superficially placate her. He had no intention of actually honoring the accords, just playing a long while finding any loophole for an action he didn't like.
And he was totally naive in the repercussions people would face and his only answer when confronted by the reality was "I didn't think THIS would happen"

he was right but compromised himself and his position by autistically throwing himself at his best buttbuddy

No.

I mean, you wouldn’t let your cops run around in masks, why let your super heroes?

>you wouldn’t let your cops run around in masks
We do though.

I'm glad he's in there and we're out here

no, while it was a hard decision for me to choose which side was right, I ultimately decided Iron Man was right in the end.

>dodger of peace weekend happens
>still hearing shit about the police and their decision to put black tape over their names

Iron Man was right for the wrong reasons (I want to make people worry less, I don't want to get in trouble) and Cap was wrong for the right reasons (I want to save my friend, I want to get to the bottom of this incident)

Just like in the comics

But Iron Man was wrong in the comics.

Mmm, the swat aren’t cops and supers can easily fight normal humans and other shit, so what I’m saying is if we had super heroes in our world I would be more comfortable if we didn’t have them masked. But I’m basing this off of My Hero Academia

>Fuck Off Tony, I'm accountable!

>meets a 16 year old and nearly kills him within 20 minutes of meeting him, because "MUH CHILDHOOD FRIENDSHIP"

In real life there really shouldn't be any debate that Cap's entire team should be in jail. Open and shut case. Vigilantism is 100% illegal and so is American militiamen going into foreign sovereign states and getting into firefights.

But the MCU is an anarcho-libertarian's wet dream where the secret one world government run by shadowy figures have the authority to nuke New York with no repercussions and the world intelligence services have been subverted by crypto-Nazis who want to institute totalitarianism.

>the swat aren’t cops
Who the fuck are you kidding. And capes are?

But My Hero Academia has tons of masked heroes. The difference is their names are out in the open. Plus it illustrates the issue with the system as well. All the good feelings with the system started dying hard when the single person that actually made the people hold the system in such high esteem was out of the game. Also the transparency of the system is a total lie, they fabricate shit all the time just so the peace is held. And the spin off goes to show that the bloated bureaucracy is great for fighting Supervillainy but actual crime is constantly overlooked and illegal vigilantes are the ones picking up that slack.

And the issue isn't just secret identities it's forcing them to answer to a higher authority, and in the movies that Higher Authority is ridiculously inept and corrupt.

>STEVE YOU CAN'T JUST DO WHATEVER YOU WANT! WE NEED RULES TO KEEP US MORALLY AND LEGALLY ACCOUNTABLE!
>Kidnaps a Sixteen Year Old, takes him overseas, to fight in an international conflict with no training.

Like I said, supers can beat normal people and supers, how would you feel if the guy that can smash you into tiny pieces as easy as you can crumple paper. At least cops are registered

What are you talking about? He's clearly on the left.

OP is a fag

So can we really agree they both were wrong overall but each side had good points?

Caps whole stance is basically that they don't always have time to wait for permission to act, and so must act as best they can in any given situation. Any collateral can be dealt with later, as long as more lives are saved than lost.

Tony wanted to shill for the gubmint and let them tell him when and how to wipe his ass. Basically, he made himself into one of his empty suits that just did as told.

They were both wrong.
The only solution would have been to incorporate training and restrictions on who could be an avenger, make rules that make sense (like when they do and don't need clearances) and enforce those rules with real punishments. Basically run the avengers like any police or army agency.

But according to modern logic, you have to polarize everything in the most stupid and over simplified way possible so that people can argue about stupid shit no one with a brain cares about.

So there it is

that's a pointless cop out answer. you aren't pragmatic enough or are too unwilling to actually weigh the two. They might both be wrong, but one is plainly more wrong than the other

Tony's side was best in theory but was totally idealistic. The UN can't manage its resources to any degree of efficacy in real life, and SHIELD is done-for, so there's no regulatory agency that could feasibly exercise any degree of control over the Avengers.

The govt tried to reign in Cap, Iron Man and Hulk in their solo movies and failed miserably every time, so there's no reason to expect that somehow throwing more bureaucracy at them will bring them to heel when waves of soldiers (and lawyers, in the case of Iron Man) couldn't

I don't think Tony really had good points though. Any good points fall totally flat in the context of the story.
Cap wasn't perfect but he DID have some good points.
But it's not actually doing anything, it's just to make you feel better but your sense of security is based on the idea that someone, somewhere has his name on a list that he consented to/was forced to consent to. But if he goes Rogue he still has as much physical superiority as ever.

I think I still have enough faith in the government that they would hold any registered heroe accountable for their actions

Yes, because registered cops have never harmed/raped/maimed anyone that was innocent. Go back to bed Tony, you're drunk.

Sure, but they still get caught, and pay the price justice passes on them, lets change the topic a little, would you still be a cop if we had supers?

The government can barely hold itself accountable for it's own shit. Have you heard about the bullshit taxes in California?

It's good to know more people realize my boy cap was right.

I think it’s because I live in Alaska my views on the government are different, but I believe if America still has the best government in the world right now

Can Tony even compete?

Why though? They put fucking Thunderbolt Ross in charge. The guy who's only failed to capture the Hulk at every turn, the guy who has only gotten people killed and made things worse in every attempt to capture the Hulk, the guy who was incapable of separating his own ego from his work, and has always operated with ulterior motive over what could actually be considered beneficial to people he's allegedly supposed to be protecting. That's who they put in charge, and he's not even the worst we've seen coming out of the typical MCU Government.

Yes but that’s because the Hulk is ridiculously overpowered, and sometimes he can be a reliability issue to the avengers, I mean he almost killed black widow in the first avengers movie, and killed several people in the Ultron movie

Cap was more right that Tony, but Tony wasn't really wrong either. Some oversight is necessary, but the Avengers should not be owned by a government or governments. There's a reason the US constitution made checks and balances. So one branch didn't become too powerful and could always be held to account by the other two.

In terms of the personal business at the end of the movie Tony was unfair to blame Bucky for his parents' death since Bucky wasn't really in control, and Tony is smart enough to know that. Cap was wrong and very irresponsible to not tell Tony that his parents may have been assassinated by hydra, especially since they were going after hydra and could've found evidence alluding to it.

Tony was right because it's the law.
When one person puts himself above the law and isnt willing to compromise and works above the system, he is saying to you one of two things- either the law is immoral and unjust, or that he does not wish to be bound by the law because of personal reasons.The Accords put these super-powered people to abide THE LAWS that already exist. Superpowered vigilantism is as wrong as non superpowered vigilantism. When we let people with powers decide the laws for us and usurp the people's laws, then we have taken a step to a super powered oligarchy were the super powered control us.

Captain America was wrong because he forgets that if it's right for HIM to not be bound by laws that are inconvenient, it's alright for everyone to do it.He's a symbol and an ideal, and right now, he's saying "Fuck the Rule of Laws.".

Hulk being OP isn't the only cause of his failure though and like I said he always made the situation worse.
My point is it's hard to have faith in the government when the person they put in charge was an undeniable incompetent corrupt failure.

Maybe they’re just making the government insolent because it would be boring for them to come in and save the day like any respectable government would

Then you change the system from within. You petition for redress and work within the system.You forget that becoming a general isnt that easy. TB Ross is a general for a reason. The Hulk is probably his one failure in a record of blazing accomplishment. Which is probably acceptable, all things considered.

Generally, almost all comic book fiction and movie fiction and superhero movies make the governments incompetent and stupid. The armies become bumbling fools and die out, instead of being impressive.

For example, the Avengers?
That invasion in Avengers 1 could have probably been stopped by like a normal fucking army. A few warthogs, a few F22's dropping missles, and guys with high caliber rifles, like barret light 50's, and you're done.

What can Hawkboy or Spygirl do that a few Seal Teams cant?

Either way, it's consistent enough in that it's a perfectly valid reason not to trust the government with such power in Marvel movies.
Not at all when your "one constant failure" has resulted in tons of casualties and collateral damage due specifically to your illegal and incompetent actions and is the specific area in which you're now assigned with overseeing.
Cap was perfectly fine doing things the legal way until the situation spun out of control.

adding to this, the Accords don't change anything. If they were around for flushing Crossbones out of Nigeria, the issue wouldn't have been "why did the Avengers let 55 people die in a suicide run", it would've been "why did the avengers let 1246 people die from a death cloud that Crossbones released?"

Do you think this is political agenda or have I been to Sup Forums to much?

Maybe, or maybe just general big bad government cliches because it makes sense to make powerful villains in stories.

Right about what?

On the other side, the Chtauri in Avengers 1, The Iron Legion in IM3, The Asgardian vanguard in Thor 3 and the Nova Corps in GotG all jobbed to make the heroes look better, so there's that too

Maybe there's something there, but in typical comicbook logic-land, for the fantasy of a independent superhero above the law to work, law enforcement has to seem inefficient and/or corrupt in comparison.

Batman works because he's above the corruption in Gotham, he's a better alternative.

Superman works because the Cops cant do what he can.

The Avengers work on the same logic, but the problem is that however wrote the Avengers really made the Chitauri shit tier guys. They were disciplined super soldiers immune to small arms fire, or even a swarm-type. They were just like a guerilla.It was frankly kinda meh.

It's a fun movie. Gotta keep things fun and fair.
If the Zerg from Starcraft appeared in Earth, and started murdering hundreds of people, numbering in the hundreds and thousands; the movie wouldnt be very nice summer blockbuster tier, eh?

Maybe it would...remember ID4? Millions died on the first alien's strike.

Cap was the right one, but to a degree he was also wrong.
The way I see it, the team is made up of nutty super powered or trained people that have banded together to take on threats that are on the same playing field that they stand on. Supernatural or Otherworldly threats are good examples of issues they banded together to deal with.

The moment they move into position to deal with terrorists, bombers, corrupt governments, etc... They are taking matters into their own hands that are normally dealt with by trained organizations and authorities that are hired, vetted, and regulated by US government oversight (using the USA as the main example, considering where they are based).

Cap had the right idea that a team like the avengers shouldn't be subjected to being told where and when and how to act for situations by a globalist authority. He had the wrong idea of 'doing good, protecting innocents' anywhere, everywhere, however they want to do it.

It's a comic book movie so the usual realistic shit of how a super powered team fits into society is ignored.

The issue I take with this line of thinking is that for example, Captain America is a naturally born US citizen that under the signed accords, would suddenly be subjected to decision making of how, where, and when he would be acting to 'protect innocents' would be held in the hands of global decision making from outside of his nation.
You might state "well, if the Avengers are supposed to save the world from dire threats of all kinds and are expected to operate outside of the USA to do so and thus must be held accountable by global oversight" and that holds a measure of water, but it also holds the proven future of corrupt actions and agendas he'd be subjected to.

There's no way Cap would sign up for that. Quite frankly, there's no way he should and that's the catch 22. Comic book logic of super teams in the real world will always double back on a hero and the legitimacy of their status.

>the government controlling the Avengers after the last movie was about Hydra being the government

Feels weird how no one in universe brought up that kind of glaring discrepancy.
I mean fucking HYDRA. Imagine if it was revealed yesterday that Hitler’s Brain in a jar was leading a secret organization at the Pentagon today?

For me it ultimately boiled down to, I can't read what the actual Sokovia Accords are, and I trust Cap's judgement more than Tony's. If their positions were reversed, I would still put my faith in Cap that it'd be the right thing to do. I assume Cap did the math, and opposing the Accords would save more lives than not.

Liberals will say "Cap should have worked within the law to protect Bucky"

right wing will say "Bucky is a criminal and should be hanged"

Cap was right for following his heart and not following the politics

Cap is always right
Far right

Heil Hydra

Who the fuck says "jobbed"?

There are no superheroes in MHA. That earth's population is slightly under 50% human mutates. Powers are more normal there than it is to be black here, so they're for all intensive purposes they're just government agents spray painted different colors.

Californiafag here, the new gas tax is pure bullshit. Its expensive enough living in Silicon Valley, I don't need more of my pocket getting raped.

He was wrong in the movie.
He was wrong if you project the argument into the real world.
And he was proven to be wrong mathematically in comics. Reed Richards used psychohistory to predict 32 possible futures, in every one where they didn't enact the Registration Act, humanity was destroyed. I will post it.

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>for all intensive purposes
for all intents and purposes

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>Caps whole stance is basically that they don't always have time to wait for permission to act,

They also wanted to act in places that might deny them.

If reed is so smart, why did Victor save us?

Well yeah he was right.

Most of the stuff the avengers were taking heat for fell in to two categories.

Stuff that was outside of their control/would have been worse without them.

Stuff that was Tony's fault.

Tony was effectively trying to make everyone take heat for crap that rested directly on his shoulders.

That really falls apart given the SHRA ended after Dark Reign and nothing happened.

He wasn't wrong in any sense. And the comic you posted doesn't prove anything, except that Reed forgot a very important detail from Foundation: the whole science predicting the future bit got fucked over because of a single mutant. The kind of people that pop up every Tuesday in Marvel. Also 'lolfuturemath that can't be explained to the audience' is the stupidest and laziest possible way for a writer to 'prove' a character as right.

But Vic agreed that Reed could've done it better.

...

Seldon couldn't predict the mule because psychic mutants didn't exist.

Reed has like 700 different psychic mutants that he knows personally. Thus, that type of thing is part of his calculations.

In the whole world? Damn son, I don't think that's being fair to the question. We could be so much better.

It rustled my jimmies that they made this a Captain America movie. Even in the comics I was on Iron Man's side (all up til he released all the villains and was like "yo its superhero hunting season")

>pay the price justice passes on them
a few weeks paid leave?

No, because Tony's argument was fueled by guilt and not facts. At MOST, you could argue he's responsible for Ultron, but all they were doing was examining the scepter, they were nowhere near the point of trying to make an AI, Ultron was a fluke.

>Oh the people who died in Sarkovia
Humanity was saved, collateral damage was kept as low as possible.

>But in DC
Property damage, no civilian deaths, saved the world.

>Scarlet Witch...
Saved more than she killed.

>N-New York
Still saved the world. Government oversight would only have handed Loki victory, the nuke would have no effect on the portal device,

So, that's 5-0, clean sweep for Team Cap.