What went wrong? Whose fault is it?

Its getting trashed by all the critics.

given that this is Sup Forums
you should be happy it got a low score
around these parts poor critical reception means your film is amazing and beautiful, unsullied by things like popular appeal, and only understood by genuises

It's Zack's for putting everyone in this mess. Old as fuck Batman, already done the death of Superman, New Gods right out of the gate.

It's a universe where Batman has already lost a Robin and Flash hasn't even met Captain Cold yet. It was fucked from the start

All the things that critics are saying sucked were present in the two Zack Snyder movies.
All the stuff fans are praising (basically any time Superman isn't a dick) is a Whedon reshoot.
The shitty CGI is studio meddling resulting in the movie not being delayed as it should have been.
So in order of fault, it goes Snyder > WB >>>>>>>>>>>>>Whedon

It still would have been utter shit without Whedon, but it might have been more thematically coherent.

It's WB's fault for giving it to Snyder in the first place, and then hiring a diametrically opposite director to finish the job.

Fuck Kevin Tsujihara.

Yeah . At least Snyder's imagery was cool

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Zach's for not taking the year off like WB offered.

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and it's flopping at the boxoffice

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Jesus christ, are Snyderfags TRYING to be as autistic as possible?

Blame the person who put Snyder in charge all those years ago.

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>He is Icarus too in some way.

I love how Snyderfagging is always akin to "I liked my middle school greek mythology class"

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>All the stuff fans are praising (basically any time Superman isn't a dick) is a Whedon reshoot.

Pandering the lowest common dominator is why Justice League sucks.

I actually think this was intentional. The rest is pretty flimsy

>Seven Samurai
>only six JL members

Also it has less then nothing to do with the themes of Seven Samurai, it's more bullshit visual theft without any sense of what it means, because if Snyder actually knew what the fuck that movie was about he wouldn't present every fight as consequence-free visual incoherence.

>presenting a likeable Superman is now lowest common denominator

You people would literally eat a bowl of shit if it gave you a reason to feel intellectually superior.

Excalibur was clearly intentional and , so are teh Jesus /Atlas stuff (God on earth was a huge part of SUperman's characterisation). The Icarus stuff was said out loud by Lex luthor.

>Snyder shoves in super obvious surface level christ imagery
>SO DEEP, TRUE KINO

Fuck, has culture been dumbed down this much?

>Superman needs to smile to be likeable then the movie is fine!

It's truly pathetic how easy it's to please fanboys.

>>Superman needs to smile to be likeable then the movie is fine!

Oh no, he sucked in this movie too.

But he sucked slightly less. It's a matter of degrees.

No it's not. Stop looking at tbe percentage of positive reviews and look at average score the crtics are giving it. Most critics are giving it average scores. The percentage is just how many of those reviews are recommendations. Lost of the rotten reviews were given the same score as WW but her movie had them fresh because they still recommended it.

Also it's Snyder's. Everyone is saying this is the frist time they gave a shit and liked the characters and is a jump in the right direction. No one said anything close to that shit before Whedon came along.

Yeah, that always baffled me. If shoving in blatant references to classic literature and film was enough to make a material high-art then Cassandra Clare's Mortal Instruments would be on par with fucking Shakespeare.

Zack should've gone after BvS but the studio meddling probably didn't help either.

They should probably leave Batman and Superman alone for a while (which is a shame cause I like casting for both) and focus on the other characters that people aren't already sick of.

That's not why I like Snyder's capeshit. Nice try, though.

What else is there to even like about Snyder films? Please mention what is good about them without mentioning why you think Marvel films are bad.

Maybe he agrees with Snyder on moral grounds

You know, an asshole

Cinematography, themes, moral questions, character nuance, good action, complexity of story, not fearing to be original and do things differently when depicting the characters...

You forgot condescending.

>Whose fault is it?

Every single person in charge.

I feel bad for Henry. I like him as Supes and he seems like a sweet guy who was thrilled he got to play him then wound up in the shit heap of Hack Snyder's DCCU

>Cinematography
Fine
>themes
Space Jesus dies to save us how deep
>moral questions
Such as?
>character nuance
Maybe Batfleck
>good action
Funny joke
>complexity of story
Convolution doesn't equal complexity
>not fearing to be original and do things differently when depicting the characters...
Yeah, make everyone miserable and stupid, how bold

>96924695
>convolution doesn't equal complexity

It technically does, I think what you mean is that complexity does not equal depth

>Yeah, make everyone miserable and stupid, how bold

Beats making them into quip machines with no pathos or concrete personality.

Snyder happened
He destroyed the DCEU and rumors are that's he responsible for Nolan washing his hands of superheroes too due to how much they clashed during MoS

It's not so much that the characters are miserable and stupid, and more that they aren't likeable enough early on for the audience to care about their development

This is why Marvel does quips, because a quick show of good humour is an easy way to make a general audience immediately find a character seem like a nice guy. Even if they usually blow it and the humour ends up being cringe-inducing

>Beats
That's not how it works, that you even think that's how it works is exactly what discredits your opinion on how it works.
Media isn't a Pokémon match. Merit must be inherent, not comparative.

I know, I was being facetious.

Let's be honest, Nolan was only involved with Man of Steel in the first place because of the giant sack of cash WB gave him. Superman isn't his style.

Snyder does great individual scenes but string them together and it becomes awful. He should stick to comics.

Ben getting recasted most likely. WB want Batman to be like the Nick Fury of Dceu and have cameos in most movie. Ben is tired and already talking about leaving. It's sad but for the best going for a young Bruce would better in the long run. And for Henry after this he will have his time to finally give us true Superman which easily can because Henry's irl acts very much like him.

>moral questions
>such as?

.would you kill someone who has a mother with the same name as your mom?
Lets debate

How badly do I want to fuck this person?

>Its getting trashed by all the critics.
No it's not.

>all
Correct. Clarification, most of them

WB's, on both counts. They fucked up by continuing to let Zack Snyder be the main director of the DCEU instead of relegating him to a storyboard or visual director role (the guy knows cool shots but dick about compelling superhero narrative). And then they fucked up again by getting Whedon to do what Whedon does best; quippy team dialogue that feels terribly out of place in the DCEU, which created the shuffling Frankensteins monster they've been forced to thrust on stage to get something, anything back from the complete shitshow post-release has been

Even the ones who have given it a positive review in the Tomatometer are damning it with faint praise. “It’s passable” “It’s entertaining enough” etc.

kino

The thing is that the failure of this movie isn't even this movie's fault. The people who went to see it were pretty ok with it. There was a lot of laughs and enjoyment in the theatre I went to. I think it'd be better received than BvS. The problem is that after that other clusterfuck, people aren't even going to see it.

>Whose fault is it?
Diane Nelson is responsible for ALL of it.

>why Justice League sucks
Funny, excluding Wonder Woman, it's the only other DCEU movie I enjoyed.

This. Aquaman or Cyborg movies would get away with "okay". Not a blockbuster teamup.

Have a case study:

You remember the part where Superman is carrying the building of civvies away?

That was a nice, kind hearted act of saving people from the threat presented by the antagonist of the movie, that fit the character, and elicited humor from that context of what else was going on in the movie.

Had Snyder filmed it, he would have shown Superman picking up the building, the bottom falling, people falling with it, as well as the roof once he tabled it "because someone carrying a structurally sound d building like that isn't sound. Then he almost certainly would have had Superman moping about the people Snyder's artistic decision led to the death of.

See the difference?

That scene was dumb because he was carrying the whole thing by the corner and it just felt out of place.

>it just felt out of place
>Superman saving people felt out of place

There's a pretty obvious problem here

So what you're saying is the BvS rips off the plot of Excalibur and Snyder is a hack?

Right?

i-it's an homage!

Did anybody cringe with the opening montage with the shitty cover? Like most Snyder films, it felt like a big budget student film.
The worst thing was the Bowie/Prince/Superman headline. Sometimes I don't know if I should think Snyder is a moron or he simply has some sort of mental disorder. He comes off as the intellectual equivalent of color blind or tone deaf. It's amazing how he was shitting all over Prince, Bowie and Superman simultaneously, while probably thinking it was genius and a tribute to them.

as someone who actually likes the franchise and loves MoS, I have to say that it's 100% the executives' fault. fuck Whedon though for butchering the tone of Snyder's scenes

You just don't get a director whom you KNOW will try to add his vision to a movie, regardless of its quality, and change it afterwards. No matter how bad some people think Snyder is, it's disrespectful and inconvenient. Whedon should have just been there to cut the scenes and that's it. Even if the movie had turned out to be a complete mess, it wouldn't have been his fault to a severe degree. I liked the movie but it was very obvious how Whedon's scenes collided with the overall narrative. Keep it epic (Snyder) or keep it simple and quippy (Whedon) but don't do both expecting the movie to be a major hit.

What I as a business person myself don't understand is why the fuck they would get Snyder for this movie in the first place. This has got to be the worst business decision ever when it comes to a high-budget movie. Both his prior movies were critically panned and didn't perform as well as WB wanted to, yet they still got him on board for their supposed breakout movie. Pretty much the best example of nepotism. I still don't think that Snyder was the problem due to him just doing what he thinks or thought would be a nice-to-watch movie (for some people). He should stick to making Batman movies since those are right up his alley. Symbolism, gritty atmosphere, great visuals, etc..

Snyder fuck-all grim psuedoreligious hackery + Whedon muh quips retard normie joke hackery = anything other than a shitty movie? Who is anyone kidding?

The fault goes three ways
>Snyder for not giving a fuck about anything beyond being gritty and cool on a kindergarten level
>Warner Bros being obsessed with trends and having big names over story and structure
>Joss Whedon basically trying to make a movie of an entirely different tone in the middle of a finished film
>All three for using a line up inspired by New 52

>great visuals
A bunch of dark silhouettes against a light background, night scenes where you can't see anything and derivative and visually unimaginative imagery?

The scene where Christ is right behind Clark in the church in MOS when he asks what his destiny is cracked me up when I watched it. It was so fucking ridiculous.

Best form of flattery etcetera etcetera.

Especially with the shift to more human, positive characters.

Snyder doesn't do that. It doesn't match his world view. They have to be burdened demi-gods, who save people but are distant from them on a personal level.

He wants people to look on them with a mix of awe and fear.

oh cmon, that's so not true, especially the statement about the night scenes. watchmen has plenty of night scenes and you can see everything clearly. so does BvS. also, what's inherently wrong about dark silhouettes against lighter backgrounds? that's how contrasts work, where's the problem?

You went wrong.

He also thinks they shouldn't talk casually to each other in costume because it's "silly".

>that's how contrasts work, where's the problem?
The problem is where it's the only think you know how to do, besides drowning everything in shadows so people can't see how shitty of a director you are.
BvS was nothing but dark shit where you could even feel your eyes straining in order to pick up something.

Why does it have to be one or the other? Everybody contributed a little to this fuckup, especially the execs

Ah yes, only the smartest movies have to put their references in big red text, so the audience knows how super smart they are.

>are Snyderfags TRYING to be as autistic as possible?

Who claims they were trying?

All I see is SUCCESS.

I think he was trying to recreate the praise he received for the opening for Watchmen, which was actually pretty darn good

Some decent, I'll give you. Very few great, and I'm going back to 300 and Watchmen.

Great isn't just a visual standard. The acting (which isn't always the director's fault or credit, I'll give you), the script, story, etc. all of those must be present for a scene to be individually great.

I don't think even his harshest professional critics claim Snyder doesn't paint frequently pretty pictures. They just think they are thematic and compositional messes.

I would give more blame to the WB suits who pulled the triggered on Zach for MoS and Johns and his co-president.

Diane Nelson is mostly ineffectual and incompetent. She's isn't smart enough to be 'responsible.'

That's why he picked up a shitty youtube cover of a Leonard Cohen song?
It's embarrasing, specially considering the guy's in his 50s.

What if his favourite movie was Ghostbusters? What references would he he use then?

>which isn't always the director's fault or credit
It isn't entirely his fault or credit but it's just as much his responsibility as everything else. Just look at what Patty Jenkins got out of Gal compared to her in the Snyder films. And just all around the likeability and humanity of even the most secondary characters in that movie with the aggressively unlikeable characters from Snyder's. All that is not simply down to the writing but the actor's direction as well. In Snyder films, everybody comes off as self absorbed and completely detached and at odds with everything around them. Everyone looks confused and insecure.

There are grown adults out there that genuinely believe that this sort of thing infers depth.

>Johns and his co-president.
You mean the guys who have been turning the wheel with everything they could since they heard
>"ICEBERG DEAD AHEAD!"
Sure, blame them.

They may be adults, but they sure as shit aren't grown, user.

>Justice League vs a Puft looking version of Darkseid

I have never seen a Snyder film that wasn't a fucking mess, while Whedon can be bland and stupid but not on the same level.

One can safely say it's Snyder's fault with it becoming worse because of the Whedon reshoots clashing tonally.

Autumn's.

I'm not sure if you noticed this subtle Snyder artistry, but Superman might be comparable to Jesus in these movies. Did I blow your normie Marvel mind?

I think that might work better if you flipped the concept around.

That should have been the biggest red flag for WB if they gave a shit. Snyder made it explicitly clear that he thinks these characters and their comics are dumb and need to be made "mature" to be on screen.

They should have hired someone who actually enjoys and gives a shit about the source material first and foremost.

Oh, and someone who isn't utterly talentless and has never achieved anything above mediocrity.

What the fuck his daughter was cute as fuck.

>snyder has one talent and still got one-upped in a random flashback scene from thor ragnarok

>but Superman might be comparable to Jesus

Honestly man, it doesn't matter either way. They are one, but not the other.

I enjoyed the movie, thought it was pretty good. I watched thor last week and thought it was entertaining as well. I don't get the huge difference in rating.

No one asked for this. No one asked for any of this. DC has already a rich mythology of its own, their movies shouldn't borrow from other mythologies.