How do you feel about cartoons/comics going off model...

How do you feel about cartoons/comics going off model? I've been seeing supposed animators defend the practice but really what is good about it?

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=uTxIEr20QzI
youtube.com/watch?v=0qiP5fqqiMQ
youtube.com/watch?v=dwEOkme69TA
youtube.com/watch?v=zQKU9ChKUFU
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

i love how S1 Connie is looking at S4 Connie
>oh god what have I become

>I've been seeing supposed animators defend the practice but really what is good about it?
What's fucking bad about it? So long as the show is good, who the fuck cares about whether or not characters are "on model"? Honestly, the only time I've ever seen it brought up is when autists on Sup Forums use it as a justification for hating shows like Steven Universe or OK KO, conveniently fucking forgetting that nearly every cartoon has at one point or another gone off model.

How many times do we have to have this thread old man?

>who the fuck cares about whether or not characters are "on model"
People who love the show and hate what's happening to their favorite show.

Honestly all the characters being chibi-fied randomly for entire episodes IS a valid complaint, it's not just people on Sup Forums bitching about this

Off model for visual effect is fine.
The stuff happening right now that is causing people to get mad is just animators being lazy shits.

I think it depends on the show
For OK KO, it’s fine because it’s predominantly a gag show. Going off model is fine because you exaggerate things for effect

For shows like SU which contain drama and tragedy elements, it’s harder to stay focused simply because nothing is consistent. There’s no real reason for going off model, so it just looks unprofessional or lazy, like when the audio in dubs come from different quality microphones/recording hardware

SU designs changed progressively between seasons, I got used to steven shrinking and eventually the entire world did as well. I noticed and I have no problem with it.

but pic related has no excuse.

See, my problem is that the characters were actually pretty ugly to begin with, but the proportions made it at least passable.

Dwarf Ball Steven and Shortstack Connie just fucking kills it for me. It feels like it takes seriousness away from it, I don't really know how to explain it.

OK KO gets away with it because it's not serious and the bigger they make Enid's ass the better.

>being inconsistent and sloppy with work you supposedly love is ok

Alright boys and girls let fucking bitchy mcbitch tell you why going off model is horrible.

1. Going off model tells us that there is no structure per scene and that any form of work can be transformed into whatever.

2. Going off model also confuses the hell out of the viewer overtime. "BUT TEX AVERY-" he stretched shit, what Steven Universe is doing is on the roads to completely changing everything that they made from the show's own reception
>why is that wrong?
It tells the viewer that anything can change, it's like how DBZ's powerlevel guide is completely useless overtime. If you don't have rulings and structure then what's the point.
3. "BUT WHO THE FUCK CAR-" People who have spent money and actual cash and funds supporting this shit show. But hey you know I mean "ARTISTS /ANIMATORS ARE DOING THEIR JOB"

4. >OK KO GOES OFF MODEL
Because Ian Flynn literally is against on-model and at this point it's a gag show that jokes around on a consistency basis to make fun of anime or video game shit like that in a kids family area.

Going off model sucks ass and it's basically pointless and honestly a waste of time.

With SU it's an issue because the lengthy hiatuses are driving the already borderline insane fans more insane. I think it was 7 months before new episodes this year, and it was 4 or 5 decent ones that don't springboard with the last big plot point. But now that people have noticed, it's becoming annoying for people who watch when heights change 3 times within a minute.
OKKO is fine doing it because it's a 100% comedy with a thin overlying plot that the creator admitted to being silly. SU has some really serious moments at times, and having it happen while both characters' hair are bigger than their heads is distracting.

>Ian Flynn

>Going off model is fine because you exaggerate things for effect
there's no joke here just them talking and already KO changed sizes and Enid got elephantitis

Are you aware that Gar always shrinks like that when around Carol? Im asking because people keep bringing this up later it's revealed they have no idea.

>Gar always shrinks like that when around Carol
like when? post pic

Danny Ducker (not to be confused with her board partner Stevie Borbolka) is the weakest boarder because she's not good at being self consistent (though there are eps where her boards are good throughout, like Stop Attacking the plaza)

Same boarder

>REEEEE it's one person's fault!
the revisionists must be drunk or suicidal.

And art is also a means of communication, especially in cartoons. When you go off-model the way SU goes off-model, it's basically the artistic equivalent of a poorly-spelled copypasta. You know how Sup Forums loves Trigger, despite them going off-model on a regular basis, but at the same time hates the Pain fight? Because one of them executed it properly, while the other didn't. For example, Kill la Kill had near constant disregard for keeping the characters on-model, but since they made up for it with action-packed, frenetic, humorous fights, people were okay with it because it ENHANCED the tone the show wanted to accomplish. Meanwhile, the Pain fight went off-model in an attempt to convey that kind of anger you feel when you're so pissed you legitimately feel like stabbing someone or taking a rock and just turning their body into a broken mess (hence that distortion), but the animation made it seem more like something out of Looney Tunes, which for a fight like that, is a very bad fucking thing indeed.

Furthermore, the Crewniverse, despite having the amount of time they do, seem to just use the bare minimum of the basic principles of animation that they need, with the high quality scenes almost nonexistent, which when compared to the work of indie animators, just makes you feel disheartened.

The Korean studios could probably go on model despite the poor boarding if they just asked them to.

>CN storyboarders make nearly $100,000 a year

I've always wanted to ask people in the industry if they get to tack on notes or animation references for the Korean guys. If they're doing this digitally, couldn't you just show them gifs of the movement you want them to go for?

>Noticibly sweating to maintain his posture and act cool
I'll hunt for some episodes don't exactly have a backlog of screen caps
Im starting to think its the same as the su situation there specifically told to not make corrections and simply follow the storyboard.
Have no info to back it up but its possible.

until shows like SU improve in quality or are taken off the air

Sad thing is that I've seen animators who are pretty young and bushy eyed do some amazing shit. And you got interns who do shit for other people and clean up shit just looking like trash. It's like literally the industry has destroyed their talent or something.

Why can't the characters stay on model like GOOD cartoons do?

There’s always one of you squares in these threads. Of course there can’t be a happy medium between Family Guy and fucking Rachel & Her Grandfather. It’s gotta be one extreme or the other.

>autistically demanding cartoon characters adhere to arbitrary rules
>calling someone a square

I don't remember Johnny Bravo, Batman: The Brave and the Bold, or Kids Next Door ever having these issues, yet excepting Teen Titans Go, of all shows it seems to be a widespread problem now.

>widespread problem
Two shows fucking around does not a widespread problem make.

these are all OKKO and to an extent, SU complaints, because it's so glaring that anybody who says they don't ntice it when watching has to be blind.

but the showrunners think that by letting their team disregard on model drawings they'll be able to work unhinged and let imagination and creativity flow, when in reality it's carte blanche to be as lazy as they please.

so with that in mind I can't take seriously anons who say "it's done for effect!" or "it's a silly cartoon", Clarence is a silly cartoon and also exaggerates for effect (look at Sumo) and it manage to always stay on model all the time and it's way better than OK KO in almost every aspect, be it writing or comedy.

I think these two posts summarize it quite well for SU and . When you have a show that's trying to still carry some sort of drama and atmosphere having the characters constantly going deformed, especially in non-comedy episodes, looks sloppy. I think another factor to me is on top of the characters all becoming more and more ridiculous looking, the emphasis the show used to have on the backgrounds seems like a thing of the past. I miss the wide shots where you'd see how much effort went to the world itself vs the more recent episodes where the camera always seemed focus on a little bean person.

I can't imagine giving a damn.

I was saying there didn’t have to be one or the other extreme when it comes to stylistic choices, you big fat fucking dweeb. That implies that there shouldn’t be set rules.

Look man, I'm the user who's always reminding people about how WB trashed the Thief and the Cobbler, which was worked on by at least four of the Nine Old Men, Grim Natwick, Art Babbitt, and Ken Harris. They all did it because Richard Williams wanted to make the best animated film ever made, and they decided to throw that animation in the garbage and butcher the rest.

As far as I'm concerned, that's when American animation died. The lack of realist art education for passionate artists is just the nail in the coffin.

Storyboard freedom really reveals which storyboarders are shitty artists. It kind of speaks of a weak central creative identity, letting the brand suffer like that, is you ask me. Take some pride in your job. You got there for a reason yet all you want to do is soap-box your mediocrity.

Reminder that the people posting family guy as a retort to the off model criticism are just a bunch of california suckups trying to get hired at CN

THIS is what good on model animation looks like. Look, they're even using the same identical designs!

youtube.com/watch?v=uTxIEr20QzI
youtube.com/watch?v=0qiP5fqqiMQ
youtube.com/watch?v=dwEOkme69TA

What manner of autism drives you to post this exact same ridiculous non-argument every time a thread like this comes up?
You're wrongly asserting that any time a cartoon goes off model it's inherently a good thing, but that's fucking stupid. Going off model by accident because you're too lazy to draw your character designs properly is no better than always staying on model because you're too lazy to do anything creative with your cartoon.
Either way, you're being lazy and making a shitty cartoon. Not giving a shit isn't a stylistic choice and it never will be.

Based studio yotta, how the fuck are a bunch of newgrounds kids blowing the fuck out of college grads so hard?

Is Steven Universe the ugliest mainstream cartoon that exists?

It's not a big deal to me. I don't even notice it when watching the eps, it's always just hey that's enid doing stuff or hey that's steven doing stuff, and sometimes for a gag they'll look extra cartoony. I'm pretty sure the showrunners like doing cartoony bullshit when they can and that they don't want their boarders to go too on-model, keeping heights and appearances flexible while staying recognizable.

one of those artists on twitter made the same argument and it made them look like the biggest retard on the planet. I didn't believe twitter was that stupid until Sup Forums posted the screencaps and linked some threads.

>Rad | Lakewood Plaza Turbo | Minisode | Cartoon Network
>OK K.O.! | Barrels and Crates | Minisode | Cartoon Network
holy crap it can look good. I can't believe I actually enjoyed myself.
but the writing and jokes are still kind of bland. I get the powering up joke but it could have been over much earlier and could've finished with a wisecrack.

>I didn't believe twitter was that stupid
Twitter isn't a community.
Most people on Twitter are renowned for being stupid.

Katsumi's Vegeta is the best early Vegeta, though Minoru's might be more iconic.

gumball

it's not ugly per se but extremely unpleasant to sit through. like, I really have a bad time trying to watch it, I end up overthinking their jokes and references instead of enjoying them.

Wait what? Connie had breasts before?

>just a bunch of california suckups trying to get hired at CN
Here's why that's bullshit. If I had a television cartoon I'd want anonymous people to stick up for my right to design a show and let staff break whatever rules I feel like. It's not your show, and it's not your choice. You can hate it and moan as much as you want about it but they're getting to do what they want for money no matter much it pisses you off

stop being sticks in the mud Sup Forums, you're complaining about people who work in animation for fucks sake. That's like the bottom of the totem pole. You're not putting a damn thing on the line, you're just pitching little tantrums from the sanctity of your homes. Look at things from a different point of view for once, you little shits

Does this count?

God... I love cartoons.

Because those newgrounds kids actually practice and it's seen that people take criticism, they learn from the alphas and they get better with their art. These College grads just pick up tricks to lessen the workload and makes things more time for them to fuck up.

...

Surely there’s more than that. Yotta handles everything from designs to final animation. Studios like CN don’t actually have that much influence over the final animation, right? Since it’s sent overseas and all.

>on model
>thick lines
>fluid animation
>SHADING
why can't the show look like this instead of a walking shitpost?

its almost like if we actually made things in house and hired americans instead of exporting literally every bit of work we made, a smaller more cohesive team would naturally make something of higher quality than a bunch of koreans none of the staff even talk to

...ah. Thank you for your answer.

this is the internet and i'll complain about whatever i goddamn want

I might be old, but at least I'm not a faggot.

>Studios like CN don’t actually have that much influence over the final animation, right?
Actually they do. The sheet timers, animation directors, and character designers create most of the guidelines that the overseas studios follow. They can even tell the animators to ignore the models completely and simply follow the layouts/animatic. On a show like Ren & Stimpy (sort of related) for example, character models were only used if someone forgot how to draw the character because layouts were basically blood and organs.

Most shows are finished by the time they reach Korea and they just have to fill in the blanks (inbetween frames) and do the camera and paint. Anybody can do inbetweens, but you have to give them good stuff and great communication to work with to get good animation back.

The problem with Steven Universe isn't that they go off model it's that they change the characters proportions for seemingly no reason from episode to episode and in some cases scene to scene

Unless you watch the show you would assume looking at the designs in OP's pic that those were two completely different characters, at the most you would assume they were related

The shifts in proportions and style are so radical sometimes that if the designs of the characters weren't so simple the characters would be virtually unrecognizable

>that fluid movement and nice colors while staying on model
What is this!?
WHY CAN'T WE HAVE GOOD THINGS???

this is the internet and I'll call out petty bullshit whenever I see it

When it's done for visual effect or due to minor animation errors it's excusable, but this is bad enough that I would honestly think they were different characters if I wasn't somewhat familiar with the show.

Why do people want to be story boarders for "modern" cartoons when every shot is going to be bland wide shots anyways?

EIGHTY THOUSAND DOLLARS A YEAR

It's because Americans are too expensive to pay and animation is a money pit. Nobody with that kind of cash has the gaul to let 4 guys sit around make something that looks like Tom & Jerry in 2017.

You'd have to give them benefits, overtime, vacations, and all sorts of shit but nope that's too good for us. That's why everything has been relegated to storyboards and retarded x-sheets, because if they let us go back to that again we'd be fucking unstoppable. Television animation budgets however have always been small compared to theatrical shorts especially if you go back to the beginning.

Look at this right here. This is the primordial soup of television cartoons.
youtube.com/watch?v=zQKU9ChKUFU

Posts like this honestly make me wonder if someone from CN browses these threads and gets super fucking mad when their work is criticized.
Seriously, what kind of human being would make these kinds of petty excuses about work that isn't even theirs?

Plenty of comics/cartoons people come on the board. I don’t know how many of them directly engage, though.

A lot of the more overt enthusiasm is probably students or industry hopefuls.

>How do you feel about cartoons/comics going off model?
it's must serve a purpose. Even in reality, objects deform and morph when exposed to a high enough force, so in animation creators should be able to break and morph characers in service to good animation. It can be used in fight scenes, to exaggerate a facial expression and best of all, comedy. a majority of Steven universes off model doesn't serve a clear purpose. Now if it were proportional off model were each artist would draw the characters and backgrounds at different sizes for their art styles but things like, Lapis being just shorter than pearl, remained that would be interesting premise for a show, but there are numerous examples of them fucking up even proportions in the same episode.

I thought having good, solid drawings was one of the core principles to animation? Also apparently these weird "draw them however you want" moments in the show were Sugar's idea, yes? I'm only left wondering why. Characters changing in size from scene to scene for the sake of some weird artistic vision makes no sense as it doesn't actually do anything except make the show look sloppy.

>what kind of human being would make these kinds of petty excuses about work that isn't even theirs?
You're probably 17 and don't work. If you're unemployed then how can you understand the concept of a job well done and having pride in what you do?

Like prove me wrong. What's so bad about defending them? Is it because it makes you mad and I should stop because it confuses you?

>twitter: the post

I just explain shit, to mindless shitposters, because there's always that point where the person has no fucking idea what they're talking about in terms of the ip.

>I'm just gonna yank the LAN cable out of the console when I lose at vidya games instead of trying to get better
t. you

>giving artists the freedom to go off model and away from character sheets
Artists have been given to much freedom. We're not back in the John K days where goign off model was drawing an exaggerated face or bending arms.

When your characters are literally changing size, shape and weight speratically between episodes and even within the same episode its time for some quality control

I'm not familiar with SU but that S4 model of the girl makes her look like a toddler, which I assume she's not

>Can't refute anything

If you don't have an argument don't get involved in the conversation. You'll look like less of a retard next time.

I wonder what happened regarding the proportion consistency the show had in season 1, compared to season 2 on. I believe the issues started happening ~late season 2, with "Steven's Birthday", and only kinda got worse from there. It started with just the lineart problems that Rough Draft episodes had, but slowly the proportions got worse too.

I kinda theorize that perhaps a change in production might be the reason the inconsistencies increased. IIRC, in one of the podcasts for the show, one of the boarders said that the amount of time boarding an episode was shortened from 4 weeks to 3 weeks at some point. Additionally, the episodes where the proportion issues started popping up more frequently were animated ~spring 2015, around the time "Jailbreak" aired and skyrocketed the show's popularity. Maybe after that, CN decided to slightly rush production of the show so more episodes could be pumped out faster (lol), and in turn this has affected the quality of the show's animation.

>widespread
It's littererly two shows. Most of the off model these days is meme faces.

I wanna say the shrinking cookie in crates and barrels is an example of good off model but maybe it's too distracting, that might just be because off model is at the front of my mind right now.

Either way it's a genuine intentional choicw instead of laziness.

>Like prove me wrong.
You say that as though "ur a loser, u don know how hard my life is" is a real defense against artistic criticism used by people who aren't 12.
>What's so bad about defending them?
Because they don't deserve defending. You can do it if you really want, I just don't understand why.
I guess you could be trolling or something.

Well, let's look at these brilliant divine truths you've apparently delivered unto the masses:
>"I don't care about your criticism because they're getting paid to do it which obviously makes it okay by default."
>"Why are you expressing opinions about cartoons on an internet forum dedicated to comics and cartoons?"
>"You don't personally work in the field, so you're not allowed to provide any sort of criticism of things that are obviously wrong."
If I wanted to hear this sort of bullshit I could go on deviantart and look up the comment section of some teenage weeaboo's Naruto fanfiction.

amazing

...

...

...