Is the no kill rule stupid?

Is the no kill rule stupid?

depends

Space Batman gotta have standards.

Yes especially if you're dealing with people like The Joker.

It depends on how it's justified.

depend on the type of tournament it is.
i mean if you ever read that dbz multiverse comic, you can kill your opponents in the tournament since they'll be brought back after the tournaments over, but the tournament itself is all just for fun.
and it all doesn't make any sense that in this tournament of power you can't kill your opponents even though there's the threat of having your universe erased.

What kind of stupid question is that?

Superheroes are freelance law enforcement. They catch criminals who are too powerful for the regular police to handle, but it's not their place to take the law into their own hands. The responsibility of defining what's legal and illegal and executing the proper punishment goes to the will of the people and their elected officials, not to the superpowered few.

This is one of the important checks and balances on the concept of superheroics. When they go from enforcing the law to dictating it, they cross the line from protectors to conquerors; even if their actions are well-meaning at first, it's a dangerous line to cross.

Is justice overrated?

What would stop someone from nuking the entire battlefield if killing was okay

Oh, damn.

IF they want to be part of society. If they're powerful enough to not worry about society rejecting/coming after them, then they can just choose to treat the world as their sandbox - and if that means hunting down all the bad guys and killing them so be it

Yeah, it totally makes sense
>Harley Quinn kills thousands of children
And they're morally superior if they don't actually kill these villains
>Joker murders a dozen policemen
I'm so glad these super heroes don't step over the line to an unspeakable act such as executing a villain who has killed before and will kill again
>Black Adam kills millions of people in Bialya
My entire family might be dead, but at least I don't have to worry about Batman killing the Joker.

The Joker's just been around too long. Even with universal resets he's still amassed such a long list of crimes he'd be considered the world's worst terrorist and have the feds on his ass, probably issuing orders to police to shoot on sight and placing up bounties. Batman wouldn't have to kill him. He'd already be dead.

If everyone disappears in a blink in an eye with no pain or consequences of suffering then it doesn't really matter.

No. The no kill rule is not stupid?

>WHY
Because character deaths in dragon ball don't matter when they have a deus ex machina in the form of dragon balls (and now super dragon balls) that can bring anyone back from the dead.

Character deaths in DB carry no weight, so having the plot try to built off of character deaths when the characters will be wished back to live later in the plot would only degrade the shows quality.

why is it their job? they drag in the lesser villains all the fucking time, warm up that electric chair.

If Jiren is so hard gay for justice then why is he giving the other universes a chance to defeat him?

>why is it their job?
Because they decided to make it their job when they put on the mask. The 'checks and balance' argument is stupid as fuck. If heroes cared about that, they'd become cops. Clearly, they don't believe that checks and balances work, so why does it suddenly matter here when they could potentially save millions of lives? There's no morally, ethically, or philosophically justifiable reason (In universe, of course. We all know the real reason) that heroes can't kill with very few exceptions.

Depends on if this is Sup Forums or not.

>Looks around

Well what do you know, you're posting in Sup Forums. GTFO.

>The 'checks and balance' argument is stupid as fuck. If heroes cared about that, they'd become cops.
That's what they do. They become cops, not serial killers. If you want someone dead, you could put the blame on the prisons that fail to hold them, the judges that don't sentence them to death, and the laws that don't permit impromptu executions, before the police who do their job as police, as opposed to doing the jobs of the judge, jury, or executioner.

So why don't the superheros just rape the Supervillians instead of killing them?

They couldn't become cops and still do what they do. Cops don't get special personalized gear that they made at home. They follow orders. If Batman or wonder woman were a cop, they wouldn't get to use grappling hooks or a lasso.

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The moment the tournament was revealed to be no-kill but with total erasure, it lost all impact, since you immediately know that it will have absolutely no consequences.

It probably should have been an anything goes tournament, with the universes having most of their content erased and then forcefully merged.

the no-kill rule is probably there so the whole thing won't devolve into people throwing death balls at each other (reducing the arc episode count to just 5 at the most)

Kiero.

See the problem is you're looking at this from the meta perspective where you know the villains will never be killed for good. From an in-universe perspective the heroes are relying on the law system to work, and up to a point it's perfectly reasonable to do so.

No kills rules are stupid, like nearly all absolute rules. Any appeal to the law or whatever is stupid. They already became viglantes because the rule of law of the nation state had failed.

Heroes can and should avoid killing when possible. But with how edgy modern comics get with the bad guys, they need to dis it out der more. It feels almost like the writers are justifying a kill. The bad guys are depraved, degenerate, barely Human nutters. But no got to keep you alive.

He's probably not too happy about all the univercide going around.

>The bad guys are depraved, degenerate, barely Human nutters.
pretty much how sucks it is for long time characters.

old villains have to step up their game to be a threat anymore but their heroes can't escalate their tactics/methods to deal with them.

Not a terrorist: no political bent to his crimes.

so anyone actually want Jiren to be the one to undo all the stuff that happened in the tournament via the wish from the super dragonballs?

there's a high chance goku would just wish for everyone to live again solely to have a chance to fight with them again.

Yeah, up to a point.

The problem is that comic writers kept trying to outdo one another and shock their audience.

Joker kidnaps an heiress so he can steal the crown jewels? Just throw him in jail and stop him next time!

Joker beats your sidekick to death with a crowbar? Ok, it's personal but it's just one murder, can't sink to his level.

Joker shoots the police commissioner's daughter through the spine? Gordon wants to show that the law works so bring him in without killing him.

This all makes sense.

Now, though, you've got Joker murdering hundreds of people on a whim and Batman does nothing. "We have to rehabilitate him!" Yeah Bruce, the guy dressed like a nightmare clown who murders people is gonna be fine with some group therapy.

Then why do you treat them like they are?

The thieving Jap bastard

he sounds much more interesting than in the anime.

>Is the no kill rule stupid?
Yes.

>he "stole" a recolor of his own work

This reminds me of people complaining about vidya developers selling ports of their games derived from pirated roms.

He didn’t even want to participate

>the animu skips out on all this characterization

Gay.

He’s fast

That's exactly why that rule is in place. It'd just make things boring for Zeno if someone did that.

In universes where Batman is a licensed member of the police force. Wouldn't him using lethal force be the same as a regular member of the police doing the same?

No other medium has it. It's indefensible garbage that was FORCED on the comics medium by the CCA. Anyone who supports it is supporting censorship, nothing more.

The only characters that shouldn't kill EVER WITHOUT EXCEPTION are characters where it fits their characterization. Batman doesn't kill, but that's a character FLAW. He'd literally let the Joker kill every person on earth if it meant "sticking to his principles". But that's a BAD thing. Batman doesn't kill because he's mentally ill, not because he's some "paragon on virtue" or whatever.

If he doesn't work to destroy Zeno then he is a fraud.

The only way the multiverse will be safe is when the gods are no more.

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Everything in Super is just lazy shit stolen directly from fanart/fanfic.

Anyone that defends the show is pretty pathetic.

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>Tien

It's a necessity of the medium. Cape comics (and when you talk about a no kill rule, it's almost exclusively about cape comics) are episodic, action-heavy pulp stories that are expected (or at least hoped) to keep going for many years. Such stories require an engaging, interesting, and most importantly, *recurring* villain. Start any thread on why Wonder Woman isn't so popular and within ten posts you'll have someone explaining that one of her biggest problems is lacking a good rogues gallery.

Notably, this is also the reason why villains break out of prison and kill more people again and again and again, which is often the primary reason why no kill rules are "stupid". A refusal to kill wouldn't bother so many people if villains could go to prison and stay there. They're two sides of the same coin, and it's frankly ridiculous that people take one side (villain comes back effortlessly again and again) as perfectly logical while decrying the other side - no killing - as illogical.

The no kill rule is in place so the single strongest fighter can't just nuke the entire stage off from the start. Remember, the tournament is there to entertain the OmniKings. The winning universe surviving is only there to make the fighters fight harder and put on a better show for the two toddlers. Also they say Super Dragonballs can do anything but until we actually see them reverse something being erased we don't know if they can. For all we know Super Shenron could just outright refuse that kind of wish because it would go against the OmniKings' decisions.

The omniKings are disgusting, they would literally be portrayed as the villains they are in Western Comics.
All the new deities are more petty, petulant and with more blood on their hands than the likes of Freiza, Cell and Buu combined.

More like the manga adds it in after the fact since it's an adaptation of the anime.

>Wanting to be accepted by society as a hero
Who the fuck cares? Your goal as a hero shouldn't be about wanting the citizens to like you but to do what is best for society as a whole, your civilian life is where you make actual connections with people, not as a hero (assuming you wear a mask in your hero costume)

There's something inspiring about the no kill rule, cause it requires the hero to push themselves to hold back the villain (that is usually willing to kill) while also holding back themselves from the easy and brutal solution of "just kill them".

It's a lesson that the right choice is often never the easy choice, but still a choice WORTH going for.

On one hand I like what I'm seeing from the manga pages being posted. On the other hand I would really enjoy watching the shit storm that'd happen if the anime conflicted with the manga and had Jiren say he doesn't have a wish. I think he mentioned he was seeking that which lies beyond strength but that was a few episodes ago already. I'm sure Toriyama has already forgotten.

The entire idea for the tournament arc is stolen this isn't new news.

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Isn't the guy who made up Xicor literally writing the show?

Did it seem a little, and I thought I'd never say this about Jiren, out of character of him when he called Toppo pathetic? I mean, even from what little we gather from his character at this point, it still seems off.

Visor eyes seems like a cool guy who is reasonably pragmatic.

Toppo gave up on justice. Even when Toppo was begging Jiren to help with the tournament I got the sense that Jiren holds Toppo in some contempt, probably because of his aspirations to succeed clownboi as GoD.

In the context of comic books where the justice system sends mass murderers and crime bosses to insane assylums, yes, the no-kill rule is retarded.
If it was 'real life' and civilian lives actually meant more than nothing, then no, Batman and Superman wouldn't have to kill anybody to keep madmen off the streets.

You got that from "..."?

More in the way Toppo was trying to make appeals to him. Jiren doesn't emote much.

We don't really know how well Clown Boy does his job or Toppo's reasoning for being a candidate GoD. He very well could be trying to get the job so "ONLY THE UNJUST WILL BE DESTROYED" or some shit like that. Unless the manga went over it but then again that's semi-canon at best.

I guess I can hear where you're coming from, especially from Toppo's last line.

>iren say he doesn't have a wish
The wish was already mentioned in the anime during the special.

Episode?

If you wanna be purely pragmatic about it then yes. If you kill two murderers then the world has one less murderer.

But making it that simple is boring. I like stories that experiment with the dilemma of when a person should kill another, whether or not it's ethical for someone to go above the law and be the sole decider of someones fate, and the repercussions of becoming a murderer.

Heros with no kill rules are fine but it needs to be constantly challenged or even broken. Heros that just indiscriminately kill enemies/criminals need to face consequences.

It's shaky reasoning to be sure, but it's the sense I got. Jiren doesn't like killing full stop, so the notion of an entity that exists explicitly to wipe out civilizations that aren't developing "properly" is probably not something he holds in high esteem. For Toppo to aspire to that, even for a just cause, might not make him too happy.

The special, so episode 109-110.

Toppo gave up justice and still lost

It would be like Green Lantern going red because of power

They convince Jiren to enter the tournament by telling him that, if he wins, he'll get a wish.

We don't know what his wish is, but we're told that it would violate his moral code. There's a theory that he's going to wish all the gods dead so they can't pull shit like this anymore, which would violate his "no killing" rule.

Toppo is only concerned with justice so long as it’s powerful

Toppo and Jiren are Paladins.

Toppo fell to gain more power.

I'm honestly more excited to know the clown's backstory than Jiren's.

I guess I was under the impression that they were closer than that. Even under the same circumstances, I couldn't imagine any Z-Fighter besides Vegeta saying some cold shit like that to someone.

Yeah

Jiren will win the tournament and kill the gods

Or depower them

>The special

This is the first time I've heard of any episodes of Super called "The special". That kind of name makes me think of something like The History of Trunks, an extended episode that does shit that wouldn't be done in the series proper. Granted I have been staying away from discussions for a while.

>Jiren wishes for all the Gods to be erased
>OmniKing just erases Jiren, Super Shenron, and the Super Dragonballs before the wish could be carried out

>expecting any of the GoDs to get backstory

Nice joke. All these other characters from other universes are only here to be erasure fodder so don't expect anything.

Jiren already resisted time stop, I wouldn't put it past him to resist Zeno's erasure. Power level is everything in DBZ.

Yes. But for the sake of stories, I understand why it's in place.

Even if he resists the erasure, I'm sure the Grand Priest and Zen-os guard could just beat the shit out of him the old-fashioned way.

If Jiren does this then he will actually become the hero Dragonball needs.

>just saw the latest episode
>feel conflicted
>on one hand having Vegeta willing to give it all to save his family and do the move he attempted to kill Fat Buu with was great
>but I feel him surviving with the "SSB is better than SSJ2 so he didn't die" excuse cheapened the entire moment
>he looked fucked up after doing the move but the preview for the next episode had him fighting in SSB as if nothing happened so there seems to be no consequence to using that move which sucks
>would like more Vegeta and Goku actually teaming up and working together against an enemy, something they don't normally do, instead of Goku just powering up and hitting them really hard
>but I feel like we're going to get that at the expense of something else that's just as interesting, if not even more interesting in some ways

Yeah, the "special" was literally just episode 109-110 stitched together, because the Goku vs. Jiren fight was too long for one episode.
I was hype as fuck while watching it

Jaco is a monster as well as a little bitch, and his "lol I'm SUPER ELITE" gimmick is tiresome.

His first thought was to genocide all the innocent people on Earth rather than fight a Saiyan infant.
Any supposed law organisation which would let someone like Jaco get their hands on a WMD while also being so incredibly weak doesn't deserve to exist.

I'm going to guess they, like GoDs, don't care about planets that aren't "developed" enough. Though why Earth is like that I don't know, maybe because far as we know Earthlings haven't tried to spread out and colonize other planets. I mean present Earth is close to having time travel, considering how much older Future Bulma was than Present Bulma even without the books help it shouldn't take too long for her to figure it out. Plus Earth has Capsules, something we've never seen any alien race in Universe 7 have.

>If the price of letting a mass murderer die is a lifetime of guilt, I'm prepared to pay it
Based

Jiren had a capsule gun he used to capture a badguy.

I don't understand why heroes won't at least violently maim. That's a healthy middle ground between slap on the wrist and murder party.

What episode?

we all joke that the joker comes back somehow but what if bats finally kills him and it sticks?

anyone else can kill him and he bounces back but to perma-kill him, batman has to do it.

Yes, probably why most superhero movies abandoned that stupid shit.

Violently maiming someone is more fucked up than just snuffing them clean.

>has legit reason why he was forced to do it
>high chance that the people saying "no killing is stupid" would have been throwing a hissy fit at this.

Now I'm just imagining a civilian behind Supes autistically yelling at him for killing and that he's a cunt

Its not like its the first time he's even killed Zod.

And honestly killing someone seems way more Just and humane than sending them to the 'Phantom Zone' to suffer for all eternity.

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I do like the idea of Superman killing when there really is no other choice. But I still think he should be torn up about it and thinking that he could have done something different. After all he's supposed to be "human" like the rest of us.