The south voted to leave the nation legally and in accordance with the constitution, successfully becoming an entirely different nation, signed and sealed, by law. This is a fact.
It was not a civil war at all. It did not take place within one nation, but between two.
The north's holding and attempted reinforcement of Fort Sumter, which initiated the civil war, was an act of aggression against a peaceful nation.
The war was not about slavery. Simply paying slave owners the economic value of their slaves and slave production systems (as was done successfully in Europe) would have been vastly cheaper to the north than outright war, if ending slavery were the goal.
At the time of the south's departure, legislation could be passed into law without a single vote of approval from southern states. This concentration of political power is taxation without representation, despite the fact that the south was responsible for a majority of the farming and similar resource and industry activities that kept the north fed and prosperous.
Lincoln ordered southern politicians jailed without trial for discussing a vote to leave the nation. This man was not a hero.
The civil war is not, as you have been taught in school, a war of the noble north fighting to free innocent slaves from the wicked southerners.
Slavery wasn't as popular or beloved in the south as you may have heard, either— But that's a thread for another day.
Thanks, OP. I come from a family of wealthy Southerners who lost everything due to Reconstruction and ended up moving out west to start over. I've always been interested in my roots but it's so hard finding objective analyses of the Civil War and not the "Hurr durr Lincoln saved the black people, hurr durr the Confederacy were evul and had to be stopped" narratives you see in all the history textbooks
Isaac Torres
you have to register with the un to become a nation. they didn't.
Michael Foster
My family owned slaves, but after a predefined period of service gave them and their family freedom and a plot of good land.
Don't troll me m8 I'm not in the mood
Connor Williams
How did things go so bad between the South and the North?
>breed niggers >having entire economy based on breeding niggers >get more representation in congress by breeding more niggers >average whites poor as shit because they can't compete with nigger labor >Based Lincoln says stop that shit >confederates chimp out >700,000 whites die in the chimp out
Carter Martin
Daily reminder that Lincoln was a war criminal whose illegal war of agression is responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent Southern men, women, and children.
Colton Morales
*citation needed*
John Ramirez
My direct paternal ancestor great*3 grandfather fought and died for the confederacy as a volunteer. He did not own slaves.
He did not fight for the rights of wealthy men to own slaves. He fought for the same reason his neighbor's fought - yankees were in the South as aggressors. There's a good chance the man never even met a slave; he certainly didn't own one nor did any of his relatives.
I am not racist
He was a simple farmer with a young family. I've honored him by giving my son his name and am proud to know my son's namesake fought for his brothers and community as any capable man should do.
It is with no malice towards anyone that I am proud of my ancestor and his confederacy and I will not disgrace my blood because you get assblasted about ridiculous shit like a flag
Fuck you and fuck yankees and fuck traitor lincoln
Jaxson Johnson
>he fell for the manumission meme Hahaha. My grandparents told me this one too, then I looked into the records...
Jose Bell
Im glad to see there are more like me out there. When i was a junior in HS I took AP US History and it was just white guilt for a fucking year. I kept writing papers truthfully, not using their bullshit lies and whatnot and wound up failing the class. It was well worth it truth be told, more people need to hear the actual truth and more people need to know about the infringements on the constitution and the absolute tyranny that went on under "President" Lincolin. Thank you OP.
Landon Hughes
southerners defended southerners rights to brutalize slaves [before the war] - that is why there was a war.
Dominic Bailey
That's a complex topic which is difficult to summarize.
Virtually all of this is factually incorrect, but sadly a fairly accurate representation of how it is currently taught to american children.
Bonus facts:
Slavery was ending naturally in the south. It would have stopped completely simply due to voluntary releases if not for northern backed and proposed legislation to prevent this.
There are small african nations today in which more slaves are living than ever lived in the southern united states.
Northern sweatshops were criticized even by southern slavery supporters of the day as brutal systems wherein the Irish and others were treated far more inhumanely than the conventional slave
Sure. Give me a moment, I'll pull a few.
Josiah Flores
this is b8
Joseph Cooper
>muh south dindu nuffin
Do you think I give two shits about slavery? Slave states are the reason we have niggers in America
Chase Clark
>My family owned slaves
So your family kept niggers as pets and then set them free. Wow, thank you so much for bringing in a invasive species into America
Ryder James
If the south was allowed to leave in the union they wouldn't be in America
Henry Roberts
this is a retard
Hudson Watson
Yeah fuck them for fucking losing too
Jose Morales
Why not just let them leave?
Connor Adams
here are some, to start you on lincoln and the civil war
>Tfw my ancestors used to own slaves >Tfw I have African ancestrydespite being white according to DNA test.
Am I a rape baby?
Colton Harris
>rape baby? you cant rape your own slave
Josiah Cooper
A better hypothetical would be what would America be like if slave states didn't import and breed niggers
Matthew Robinson
Better What does that have to do with anything? The war was stupid
Luis Garcia
They were all "slave states" when they came here.
>southerners defended southerners rights to brutalize slaves
THIS is a big thing to understand;
Cruel and unusual treatment of slaves was outrageously uncommon.
There is a certain case of slaves found tortured and mutilated within a lady slaveowner's home; the white community tried to kill her, ran her out of town, and then burned the manor, not wishing something so evil to still exist.
How did the middle east treat black slaves, on the other hand? Brutal castration for each and every one.
In reality, of all nations which were holding slaves, the southern united states was by far the most humane and most conflicted of it.
Ryder Hall
Yeah it was, if South Carolina didn't jump the gun they could have negotiated a better deal than they got. The same goes for the rest of the confederate states. Perhaps we could have sent all the slaves to Liberia, but South Carolina just had to ruin everything.
Kayden Ward
Even after Fort Sumpter the North was not forced to go to war Skirmishes happen all the time that don't lead to war
Nolan Morgan
>The south voted to leave the nation legally and in accordance with the constitution, successfully becoming an entirely different nation, signed and sealed, by law. This is a fact. There is no legal apparatus for leaving the Union embedded in the Constitution. Furthermore, as the Constitution was ratified by special assemblies of the people and not State governments, the Southern State governments had no authority to unilaterally declare secession, even in the handful of States that held a (totally corrupt) referendum.
>The north's holding and attempted reinforcement of Fort Sumter, which initiated the civil war, was an act of aggression against a peaceful nation. The Island Fort Sumter was built upon was sold to the Federal Government by the State of South Carolina prior to the war. It was the sovereign territory of the United States Federal Government and the Fort itself was constructed by the US government. The South firing on the Fort and the Island, and supply ships, was more aggressive than the US protecting it's land. >The war was not about slavery. Simply paying slave owners the economic value of their slaves and slave production systems (as was done successfully in Europe) would have been vastly cheaper to the north than outright war, if ending slavery were the goal. Lincoln offered to purchase all slaves in the border states at market value and the slave owners in those States turned him down despite knowing that the War would end slavery.
What makes the South any different?
TBC
John Martin
Blacks were responsible for the south turning to shit. Blacks started slavery.
/thread
Jackson Gonzalez
Southern slaveowners were cotton Jews that wouldn't give up their cheap labor, slavery was taking jobs away from good white folk and giving them to nigger trash
Juan Brooks
>There is no legal apparatus for leaving the Union embedded in the Constitution. Texas v White was a shit decision that had to pretend the Articles of Confederation were still legally valid That being said there are no restrictions on invading a foreign country for any reason you want
Luis Nelson
>At the time of the south's departure, legislation could be passed into law without a single vote of approval from southern states. This concentration of political power is taxation without representation, despite the fact that the south was responsible for a majority of the farming and similar resource and industry activities that kept the north fed and prosperous. The Southern States held a majority in the House and almost every Supreme Court Justice. Lincoln's term would have been deadlocked if secession had not happened.
>Lincoln ordered southern politicians jailed without trial for discussing a vote to leave the nation. This man was not a hero. Suspension of Habeas Corpus is a device within the Constitution in extreme situations. 1/3rd of the Country being hijacked by Rebels is an extreme situation.
>The civil war is not, as you have been taught in school, a war of the noble north fighting to free innocent slaves from the wicked southerners. No it's not. But anyone who thinks slavery did not contribute to the war are as fucking ignorant as those who think slavery was the only cause.
Mason Hall
>How did things go so bad between the South and the North? Jews. Jews always try to profit off of differences between different people.
Southerners and Northerners don't have much problem getting along except for the Jewsh influence.
Austin Cook
DELET THIS
Carson Nelson
>hijacked by Rebels >legal, peaceful and successful votes violating no constitutional restrictions whatsoever
Jackson Jones
Farm machinery would have made slavery irrelevant.
Most people and farmers in the south didnt own slaves, it was mainly big plantations that owned most of the slaves.
The war was about state's rights, which lincoln killed. Slavery was a big part of it though.
Charles Turner
>legal There is literally nothing in the Constitution that provides for secession in any form.
Even the dubious proposition that the people of a State can elect a State convention to secede is nowhere made "legal" >Peaceful Yes, the massive voter intimidation, threats of violence, and outright fraud, in Eastern Tennessee, Western Virginia, Western North Carolina, and Georgia (which seceded by a 1% margin even with the Governor literally cooking the books) is clearly a peaceful and legitimate secession.
Tyler Thomas
Samefag here. Also, states used to be like independent countries with a weak federal government. Lincoln and his sjws back in the day destroyed this.
Bentley Morris
both sides of this argument are a bit dishonest
the "it was 100% about slavery!" ignore that the majority of the southern combatants didn't own slaves and pretty much were fighting to defend their homeland
meanwhile the other side doesn't want to admit that as far as the political elite of the south was concerned, yeah, their primary objective was to preserve the existing socioeconomic order
Benjamin Peterson
>The south voted to leave the nation legally
There is no legal right or law that allows secession in the American constitution.
>It was not a civil war at all. It did not take place within one nation, but between two.
Nope, no major power recognized the independence of the south.
>The north's holding and attempted reinforcement of Fort Sumter, which initiated the civil war, was an act of aggression
South fired first on unarmed ships carrying food and supplies.
>The war was not about slavery.
Incredibly wrong. "On March 21, 1861, Stephens gave his famous Cornerstone Speech in Savannah, Georgia. In it he declared that slavery was the natural condition of blacks and the foundation of the Confederacy." You can read seccession decrees by the southern states which declare thier defense of slavery. It was a war for "states rights" but what right specifically? The right to own slaves.
>This concentration of political power is taxation without representation
I can see where you're coming from, but having a larger population that carries more votes does not equate to taxation without representation.
>Lincoln ordered southern politicians jailed without trial for discussing a vote to leave the nation.
This is one of many criticisms about Lincoln. However, the union was in civil war and during war certain rights can be nulled. Think of the Japanese internment camps for instance.
>The civil war is not, as you have been taught in school, a war of the noble north fighting to free innocent slaves
You're kind of right, actually. In the beginning the war was focused on the preservation of the Union. However, as the war dragged on Lincoln and the radical Republicans began to realize that emancipation was the only way to preserve the union. They wanted to avoid another war about slavery, and slavery impeded greatly on the growth of the nation.
OP you have read too many revisionist books. The civil war was absolutely about slavery, to not see that is ignorant.
>Think of the Japanese internment camps for instance. We had to pay reparations for those
Elijah Gutierrez
A house divided cannot stand.
Fuck you and fuck your ancestors.
Jackson Wright
>is nowhere made "legal"
have you ever 10th ammendment
Joshua Bell
>A house divided cannot stand. why not? learn to engineering
Jose Myers
We wouldn't have been allowed to use them had it not been an executive order during a time of war. The fact that we paid reparations is irrelevant.
Isaac Myers
Yes, the point I was trying to make is that during war certain rights have to be nulled. Lincoln had to do what he had to in order to preserve the Union.
James Morales
>We wouldn't have been allowed to use them had it not been an executive order during a time of war. FDR didnt give a shit about the Constitution, Shocking
>The fact that we paid reparations is irrelevant. no its not The feds basically admitted they violated their rights
Xavier Baker
>South fired first on unarmed ships carrying food and supplies.
stopped reading here
Luis Long
The 10th does not explicitly make anything legal. It IMPLIES that a State could create a State Constitutional convention in order to secede, but it does not make it a legal fact by any stretch of the imagination.
Really, it would be entirely up to the Supreme Court to uphold that interpretation.
Levi Lewis
We didnt have to preserve the Union, it was a mistake and needs to be dissolved
Nathaniel Parker
based actually smart user
Nathaniel Kelly
>A house divided cannot stand. meaningless fluff.
Christian Moore
>be imperialist >favor union >be white supremacist >favor confederacy wat do
Owen Gray
>Supreme Court to uphold that interpretation. The supreme court didnt even base Texas v White on the Constitution They had to use the Articles of Confederation cause why the fuck not
Oliver Wilson
They were protected by union ships, but they were given the order to not fire until fired upon. Should the union have been a pussy and just given the fort to the south? What message would that send to the country and the international community?
If the union wasn't preserved we would be much weaker today. The defense of the Union is one of the nation's greatest moments.
Luis Stewart
And I wasn't referencing Texas v White, I was saying that in a hypothetical scenario in which a State held a referendum to elect a State secession convention, the result of that Convention would have to be upheld in a Supreme Court hearing in order to be anything approaching remotely legal.
Camden Reyes
It's really not though. Ever wonder how powerful "America" would be if it were two or more nations? Stupid motherfucker. Preserving the union was one of the greatest decisions in history. Eat shit.
Blake Turner
lincoln was a cunt, and the worst president we've ever had. if any president in the western world tried to do what he did, they'd be booted so fast it would make your head spin. but this was a long time ago, when news traveled slow (and, suspension of the writ of habeus corpus meant he was able to, and was known to, throw journalists in jail if they said anything bad about him)
Isaac Moore
By your logic the Declaration of Independence was an illegal act and this whole country is illegitimate. Participation in any government should be at the will of those governed.
Andrew Ramirez
>If the union wasn't preserved we would be much weaker today. Why? No Obamacare? No illegal Federal gun laws? States actually be allowed to defend their borders from foreign invaders?
Jason Rodriguez
>the result of that Convention would have to be upheld in a Supreme Court hearing in order No it wouldnt Why would they even hear the case?
Evan Fisher
If America were 2 nations, there would not be Muslim refugees in Europe, ISIS, Jews, Israel, etc
Really makes u think
Brody Miller
2 words. Yankee. Parasites. What is the Morrill Tariff?
Henry Bailey
The Deceleration of Independence WAS technically illegal.
The difference is that the Rebels won and where able to form a lasting legal Government.
There is no right of Secession, but I will never deny that a people have a right to rebel against a government they feel is working against their interests.
Basically, I don't agree with the South's LEGAL authority to do what they did, but that doesn't mean I think they necessarily did the wrong thing.
Sebastian Sullivan
What makes you think it would have stopped at two?
And if you're crying about 21st century problems while talking about 19th century alternate history, boy you sure are stupid.
Ryder Jones
>21st century problems while talking about 19th The Feds are cancer if if they went away 150 years ago we would be better off today
Jacob Gomez
Bitch
Juan Collins
Please tell me what they are good for
Brandon Parker
USN
Gabriel Edwards
What do we need them for?
Jayden Evans
Well, the tea tax was to pay for the war that YOU fuckers put upon the brits.
I guess that getting into wars and not wanting to pay for them is one of the oldest American pasttimes...
Brandon Martinez
>YOU fuckers put upon the brits. make Canda pay for it
Elijah Thomas
Fuck off. If you're not gonna put skin in the game, then I'm not gonna play it.
Adam Campbell
What game? You are the one claiming we need the Feds but can't give one reason why
Robert King
At this point, it's that you can't give me a reason why we don't need the navy. I'm not gonna do your shitposting for you, faggot.
Samuel Parker
bank and royal family inbreds want to split the usa into balkanized multiple countries. easier to manage amd loan profiteer. lincoln said "hell no, end the fed". and was killed, by someone who was in his inaguration photo
Jonathan Allen
>it's that you can't give me a reason why we don't need the navy Because there are legitimate foreign threats we need to protect from I am not interested in playing world policeman
Robert Miller
Reminder that the only circumstances in which it is appropriate to secede is if you actually win the resulting war.
>you must succeed in order to secede
Carson Roberts
>Simply paying slave owners the economic value of their slaves and slave production systems (as was done successfully in Europe) would have been vastly cheaper to the north than outright war, if ending slavery were the goal. This was attempted on several occasions. No one supported it. This no one includes the Southern States.
Your statement, while true, is neither evidence nor argument against the necessity Civil War.
Owen Green
That doesnt mean the war to keep them in wasnt a giant waste of American lives and money
Jackson Wilson
Looks like someone doesn't understand modern imperialism!
Nicholas Davis
>Slavery wasn't as popular or beloved in the south as you may have heard, either— But that's a thread for another day. The Cornerstone Speech would argue otherwise.
Julian Watson
I think if we won at Gettysberg, we would be enjoying life in the Confederacy now.
Mason Robinson
>doesn't understand modern imperialism! No I just dont care if we are a world power
Oliver Mitchell
>implying the war wasn't a protection of northern economic interest. no but it was worth the money
Jayden Diaz
Idealogy of Civil War Should Authoritarian National Americanism rule or Constitutional National Americanism rule our nation?
Jonathan Rivera
Nah. For the Confederacy to have succeeded, militarily speaking, it would have needed to both win and suffer fewer casualties at the battle of Antietam. If that'd happened, though? More than likely the Confederacy stands.
Isaiah Moore
Unamerican piece of shit. I'm as far right as they come but the Confederates were a bunch of treasonous faggots.
Joshua Howard
Your opinion blows
Jeremiah Bailey
cool bro just keep your traitor flag off federal buildings
Oliver Rivera
south shouldnt have fucking attacked then, rebel scum
Brandon Rodriguez
surprised it only took 3 post to mention jews
Xavier Kelly
Lincoln said the slaves should be free. He meant they shouldn't cost anything.
Lincoln received the fruits of his labor. A bullet in the Brain. A fitting finale of any revolutionary official.
Gavin Hall
10th amendment is broad enough to find that states have a right to leave the union, since all powers not ennumberated in the constitution are reserved to the states. Leaving is not enumerated, therefore...
Also, France was the first major European power to acknowledge the Confederate States. It wasn't the only one.
No need to make up shit, sempai. The North won so it got to decide things like "this war was purely about ending slavery and not about increasing the power of the federal government nor about making sure the United States of America survives instead of the Northern states breaking away to do their own thing leaving only a few states trying to be USoA." or "the federal government will go broke without the tax money from all the southern states and we will no longer be able to subsidize our industries in the north." or "we will never be able to afford the food from the south with the new tariffs put on agricultural exports to pay for the new confederate government, and then the union will fall apart and that will be the end of the union."
All those are true, but the North doesn't like those facts so they aren't broadcast very strongly. Just the "free the slaves!" bit.
Brandon Jones
Why? Our taxes have gone up Where are these global economic power dividends?
Christopher James
Confederate pride is just as stupid as nigger 'we wuz kangs!!' nonsense.
The victor writes the history. Get over it.
Easton Rogers
>lincoln said "hell no, end the fed". and was killed, by someone who was in his inaguration photo WHAT? Redpill us on this.
