Can some one explain why the Carrier deal is bad. Biology major but too dumb to understand economics

Can some one explain why the Carrier deal is bad. Biology major but too dumb to understand economics.

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wsj.com/articles/indiana-gives-7-million-in-tax-breaks-to-keep-carrier-jobs-1480608461
twitter.com/AnonBabble

It's not bad. People are just too stupid to understand what it does.
> Company gets a 7 million tax cut
> 1000 jobs stay in America
> 1000 jobs which will pay tax and support the local economy

That bitch needs to read a real fucking book

>explain why it's bad

It's not

It's kind of like how inefficient/error prone transcription would be without methyl tags.

Less jobs for poor people in other countries.

It's LIKE YOU DONT EVEN CARE

I wonder what that top book she sitting on smells like?

my nigga talking about methylation

Only good book in that pile is Lolita

Methylated masteron best masteron, desu

It's not bad.

Carrier wanted to fire 2100 people. Trump convinced them to retain 800 in exchange for 7 million in tax breaks over 10 years.

People think protectionism is nationalistic and will do all sorts of mental gymnastics to convince themselves that they're not hypocrites for simultaneously being progressive and also being against supporting the native working classes

I WANT TO BE THAT STACK OF BOOKS!

> but senpai its not bad

Carrier makes a little less money by staying here, but they're an established brand with sticking power so its unlikely theyll ever go out of business because of that.

Meanwhile they're not bloodsucking money out of the united states and not putting it back.

Which means they may get More Business to compensate for losing some profits by not moving out of the country.

The governments job is not to centrally plan the economy, which is what Trump tries to do when tries to get companies to do this or that. It's collectivism and it's wrong and stupid.

salty milk and coins

It cost around $7 million dollars total over the next 10 year period

Meanwhile if you do the math, you learn that 1000 people working at the mean salary and paying taxes generates over $5 million in just one year

Not to mention the state has to pay millions fewer in unemployment benefits, and the economic multiplier that factory jobs generate in the service sector

As long as all companies staying in the US get those same tax cuts it's a win for the US. But if he gave them under the table deals, without consistency for other companies staying it's a bad thing.

Wasn't it something like 7 million over 10 years? Seems like a very good deal for 1000 people making $25/hr.

>Can some one explain why the Carrier deal is bad.

They are keeping 1000 low skilled, non-competitive jobs going in Indiana as a political favour to Trump and Pence, whilst receiving a tax break in return.

Those jobs will certainly go in the near future. The US taxpayer is footing the bill to keep 1000 zombie jobs going. The deal offers no economic value.

In addition to air conditioners, they make gas furnaces.

Also it's not bad, the 1000 jobs will pay more than 7mil in taxes (that the govt wouldn't get if they were laid off and had no income for a year) this year alone, which will more than pay for the 'cost' of the tax cut. In the long run the income from this will actually outweigh the cost, but liberals haven't thought it through like that, they only see immediate benefits and disadvantages.

Trump lost jobs that he promised to save and to not lose even more jobs he had to give Carrier, tax breaks, and brown nosers on Sup Forums are twisting the facts to make this seem like a good deal.

You're an idiot.

>In the long run the income from this

The income from a non-viable air conditioner assembly facility. Which is pretty close to nothing. There is no long run, the plant is a dead duck.

The fuck are you on about, you FUCKING dumbshit?

You're thinking of a different kind of methylation.

As a one off deal it's fine. What's concerning is that it sets the precedent that manufacturers in the future can threaten to move jobs overseas in order to get subsidies.

>girlsittingonapileofshit.jpg

Gross

Creates an incentive for American companies chimping out and threatening to move abroad if they don't get tax cuts.

>> Company gets a 7 million tax cut

>It cost around $7 million dollars total over the next 10 year period

Were the tax cuts specifically targeted to Carrier, though? I thought these tax cuts were for all businesses, and just a part of Trump's tax plan in general.

Please refute him as I see some good points for the Carrier deal. But this is one of the negatives. If there is no counter point then it is hard to call him a faggot without a defending pov.

It's a great deal because you get to watch some amazing mental gymnastics from republicans who were complaining about corporate welfare and crony capitalism under Obama.

> How to tell if your Cat is plotting to kill you

>company gets major tax break for giving trump his pity 1000 jobs hes been promising to his redneck supporters
Meanwhile they still ship 1300 jobs to mehico and will continue shipping more. This was just trump just getting political points and thats all

Same question: >Were the tax cuts specifically targeted to Carrier, though? I thought these tax cuts were for all businesses, and just a part of Trump's tax plan in general.

It's not bad, per se. Carrier gets 700K a year in federal tax credits. They'll also pay 25M a year in wages in the US, producing a likely income tax yield of 2.5M a year. 2.5M is obviously much larger than 700K, so it's a win for taxpayers. Carrier also retains a net tax obligation. They basically got the EITC or Childcare Tax Credit, but for corporations.

It's basically a Euro-style public-private partnership for job preservation. I don't "support" it in principle, but weighing the options available in the actionable here-and-now, it's probably the best option.

The real long-term solutions are:
>let them outsource and/or automate if competitiveness requires it
>but no more migrants of any kind coming here to take the remaining jobs, period, and all fucking illegals out NOW
>no more tax credits, subsidies, or other state aid
>but lower their tax and regulatory burdens substantially; corporate income tax should be 0%, but since dems'll never let that fly, maybe 5-10%

It's really simple.

Even at a low wage of 30k per year averaged for all 1000 employees, State income taxes will collect approximately 9million in revenue. The deal itself was 7 million.

This isn't taking into account sales tax, Federal income tax, any property taxes, money spent in the local economy, or money spent to support 1000 people in government assistance if they were laid off.

I forgot to mention 9 million in 10 years.

>she
A nice leathery Balzac.

>biology major
>dumb

checks out

enjoy your liver failure cunt

That's what I don't get he didn't save jobs if they are still going to Mexico.

Someone who is arguing against the Carrier deal please refute this person now.

>Were the tax cuts specifically targeted to Carrier

Yes. They are part of an offset deal. They are sending their electrical component facility completely to Mexico, keeping a few hundred at the air conditioning place and keeping the R&D and back office staff in Indiana. 300 of the 1000 headline figure jobs they are "keeping" are the R&D and back office workers, who were never going anywhere anyway.

wsj.com/articles/indiana-gives-7-million-in-tax-breaks-to-keep-carrier-jobs-1480608461

tl;dr Out go the jobs, in comes the public money. Shoddy deal really.

Libtards sacked us with a doubled debt and now they're the experts on running a balanced budget when that's specifically what MIKE PENCE IS KNOWN FOR IN INDIANA, preying on ignorance but kek is meting out the justice with meme magic

someone tell women that books are used for reading, and not as a chair

Because Trump is a bastard man!

If that's true, he really only got 700 jobs.

>in comes the public money.

Actually, no. Tax breaks =/= Gibsmedats.

And in this case, the extra tax revenue well outweighs the $7m the deal cost.

The reason the deal caused so much autistic screeching from the left was because it was accomplished by means other than coercive use of government power. They are incapable of any other solution, and thereby suffer cognitive dissonance when they see the opposite of their only tool work.

>To Read the Full Story, Subscribe or Sign In
Screenshot? In the articles I've read, the phrase "incentive package" was thrown around by journalists, but all I've seen from the actual horse's mouth (Trump and Carrier) has mentioned the business tax breaks and reduced regulations, which will apply to every other business too, since it's part of his general tax plan.

The jobs will not be there for very long. There is no need to pay Indiana labour costs to assemble something which a trained ape could put together.

Actually 800 plus the 300 that would have stayed anyway. Somehow, the luggenpresse dropped a digit.

The biggest problem that has any credibility to it is that the deal sets a president of companies being able to bully the government around for money or threaten to leave the country. Flaw with this is that Trump gave Carrier what is effectively peanuts. Odds are the deal was something along the lines of "if you leave we're going to tariff you to hell and cut all you government contracts, but if you stay we'll give you a few pennies." It keeps Carrier from complaining about how they got nothing out of the deal.

It is an offset deal. The company are putting in $16m to the state, getting a $7m tax cut in return and shipping all practically all their low value added jobs to Mexico, to be nearer the components manufacturers and to exploit the cheaper labour.

It is worth keeping the jobs on for a certain amount of time if you can get $7m from the government. The assembly plant is non-competitive but it is presumably not leaking money that violently.

>Tax breaks =/= Gibsmedats.
It actually is. Its half the reason the current tax code is so shitty is because of all the tax breaks thrown in there for exactly that reason.

The whole "bully" argument always seemed stupid to me.

Economics has always been about incentives and groups willing to work together if they all agree with the terms.

That is essentially what this is. You leave and a lot of bad stuff. You stay and you get more benefits than before. If a bunch of companies and States can come to mutually beneficial terms that guarantee US workers staying in the US and mitigating or eliminating sending jobs to other counties, then that's great.

This is all without any official policy too.

Better than 0.

They're there for now, which again is better than nothing.

>The reason the deal caused so much autistic screeching from the left was because it was accomplished by means other than coercive use of government power. They are incapable of any other solution, and thereby suffer cognitive dissonance when they see the opposite of their only tool work.
Over Thanksgiving weekend, I played "Trump: The Game" with my family, and it's an amazing peek into how Trump's mind works. He truly believes in the principles of capitalism and the free market, and thinks that every deal should result in mutual benefit for both parties. As a quick summary: the first part of the game is kind of like Monopoly in that you move around a game board to acquire properties; but the second part of the game is free-style: you make any kind of deal with any other player in order to make a few bucks. The player with the most money in the end wins the game.

Leftists are like stupid nannies. Their only tool to get their way is the coercive initiation of force, and when they don't get their way, they escalate their force to imprisoning you or killing you. Trump is a Godsend to any country plagued with statists, like we are.

Leveraging the government to enrich people you like is a bad thing. If Carrier was staying because of Trump's corporate tax policy/regulatory policy then it would be a good thing but because he is bribing them with tax incentives its a bad thing that sets a terrible precedent.

Plunder is bad.

>Obama creates 805,000 net manufacturing jobs
Sup Forums: "Fucking monkey king nigger day of the rope when???"

>Trump creates 1,000 Jobs by selling America out to Carrier
Sup Forums: "FUCKING GENIUS GOD EMPEROR LITERALLY 15 D UNDERWATER BASKETWEAVING MAKING AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!!!"

You guys make me want to kill myself tbqh

Dumb retard Mohamad has officially weighed in.

Sounds like a good deal to me. I don't see the outrage.

>>Obama creates 805,000 net manufacturing jobs
Yeah, in China and Mexico.

I get that completely. I just mentioned it because it is THE best argument you can make for it being a bad deal.

Trump just needs to sell out to 804 more corporations to match Obama! Praise the god emperor Trump!!!

850k non full time, shit wage, or public sector jobs. Mcfucking kill yourself.

Basically company doesn't pay 7 millions in taxes over the next decade so government doesn't have to spend 5 millions a year on unemployed subsidies. At the same time ~1000 surviving workplaces give at least $15/hour jobs for local population.

Comparative advantage. Every nation should produce whatever they can make with the most efficiency. The US should import simple things that can be made cheaply in Mexico and China while focusing on making more complicated products in the US. Unless of course you want America to be more like China and have everyone work in a sweatshop.

>which again is better than nothing

I am not sure that is really the case. The jobs market in Indiana is quite good, and they are stuck in a zombie assembly plant waiting for the axe to fall. The plant and the workers could be put to a profitable use, it does real harm to keep non-viable concerns going for political reasons.

>805,000 manufacturing jobs are created in 8 years DESPITE Obama
>Trump personally saves 1000 jobs before he is inaugurated after having a conversation on the phone with them

>The plant and the workers could be put to a profitable use
That's not what happens in the real world, though. Laying off blue collar workers doesn't make them go get college degrees. It just puts them into other blue collar jobs, like driving for fucking Uber or working at a call center.

It literally doesn't matter. Trump got jobs to stay in the USA before he even took office, which is really an incredible first impression.

Screencap this post now, Trump has guaranteed his reelection before he's even officially president. Two terms 100% confirmed.

It's a tax cut, not a tariff.

>zombie jobs offer no economic value
>low skilled works will produce something useful rather than sitting around on welfare doing nothing

Why stop at two? There's nothing saying he can't go for more. Other presidents have done it!

>That's not what happens in the real world

That is what happens constantly everywhere. The process of creative destruction is how a demand economy works. In this instance the mechanism is being interfered with by the state, which is deleterious in small doses and would threaten the entire US economy and society if it became routine and widespread.

>driving for fucking Uber or working at a call center

Nothing wrong with that. The average worker in the US changes jobs every 11 months, the workforce is highly adaptable. That is how the US economy flourishes, it is its primary strength. If you start mucking with it you end up with something far weaker.

Yeah it seems like "bully" is a term that the Left uses when people on the right win arguments.

The Economist and Wall Street Journal don't want anyone to make any big economic decisions except for Central Banks and the few hundred ceos and board of directors members and hedge fund managers who own everything. Politicians are supposed to be rubber stamps, maybe even between the interests of competing billionaires, but they aren't supposed to come up with and implement their own economic ideas.

The Economist doesn't want the government to pick winners and losers because they want that to be the job of the moneyed classes instead, in other words, the people who the last government picked to be the winners don't want the new government to replace them.

Threatening to cancel government contracts if you leave the country is bad because anything that offends the delicate snowflake CEOs in any way reduces growth because these handful of totally irreplaceable elites with inaccessible esoteric knowledge will go Galt.

Its all bullshit. We can change all the regulations and tax shit that causes businesses to be more profitable by moving overseas. These old laws aren't laws of nature, they can be changed to entire businesses to come back. Butthurt liberals and establishment will be butthurt and lose some shekels but fuck them we're near collapse and can't sustain 100 million people not working with 20 trillion in debt and permanent zero percent interest rates and falling birth rates.

>Those jobs will certainly go in the near future. The US taxpayer is footing the bill to keep 1000 zombie jobs going. The deal offers no economic value.

funny how they never said this about the auto bailout despite those jobs literally leaving the country later

No, you don't know how the jobs market works in America. I'm going to stop taking you seriously because you are clearly ignorant.

>The average worker in the US changes jobs every 11 months
Anyone else think that is rather terrible? I know I'd rather stay at one job for 40 years than switch ~44 times in that span.

How exactly did Obama create 805,000 manufacturing jobs, Obamaleaf?

You fucking loser.

>low skilled works will produce something useful

At an uncompetitive price.

>sitting around on welfare doing nothing

You mean out there in the job market, looking for opportunities, starting small businesses, competing with other people for jobs. This makes the economy competitive.

I am slightly baffled that I am attempting to explain how a demand economy works to someone with that flag.

>totally irreplaceable elites with inaccessible esoteric knowledge

Nobody is irreplaceable and no knowledge is inaccessible.

>Planting her stinky bagina on all those middle-school tier books
It's like she doesn't want us to take women seriously at all

>selling America out to Carrier

It's bad in principle because it's crony capitalism which itself is a form of socialism. By giving selective tax breaks or incentives to specific businesses the government is essentially picking and choosing winners and losers. The government should be treating all businesses equally.

Because we haven't been a demand economy for a long time dumbass. That's why people are screaming for job growth.

>we haven't been a demand economy for a long time

You don't know what some of these words mean, do you?

Baracks's policies created millions of manufacturing jobs......in China.

now every company in the us can come whining to the president, "if you don't give us tax breaks funded by american taxpayers, we will move to mexico". suddenly, we no longer have any tax money for roads, etc, and the companies can operate any way they like. really stupid, shows that donald has no negotiating skills whatsoever.

>fire 400,000 full time workers
>hire them back on, working part time

You are now aware that jobs =/= employed people

>big business can pressure government
>big business gets tax cut
>small business can't compete because they pay higher taxes

> Single out one company to reward it for "changing behavior"

The only reason chinks can make it at a "competitive price" is because of currency manipulation and less regulation benefiting workers. China isn't exactly a laissez faire economy.

We should be trying to give our workers the same access to labor we give to Chinese workers or Vietnamese workers or Cambodian workers. The government forces American labor to be non-competitive because we wrap each employee in a bundle of rights and privileges that drives their cost up 3 fold.

It's not like the cost of shipping products from another continent, logistics, bribes to govt officials for licenses etc are cheap.

true. its very entertaining. and makes me realize i am a better republican than all those so called republicans, i can see how this is bad for business from a mile away.

>that god-tier bod
>those shit-tier books
what a waste

They should whine because taxes are too high. If anything the Trump deal demonstrated the obvious truth that lower taxes will keep businesses here and everybody wins in the end. With that 7 million tax cut the government is pulling in 40 million per year in employee income tax that would have disappeared.

(its not)

Good point. "Free trade" isn't free when one side of the deal exists in a system that is 100% controlled by the government to manipulate wages, the value of currency, the cost of living, etc.

>We should be trying to give our workers the same access to labor we give to Chinese workers

That is happening in this case. The Chinese authorities routinely prop up failing concerns for political reasons, their entire steel sector is an extension of the state. It operates like a giant workfare scheme.