Taxation is theft

>Taxation is theft
How to argue against this?

taxation is rent

Money isn't yours.

Government has property rights in all of the land. It claimed the land before you did.

U benefit from the government but it is not 4 free

>non-autistic people understand this intuitively

It's a good test to do on new peOopple you meet to figure out if you can control them or not

>argue against

government will never be better with my $ than i am

end of argument

Are all Americans this stupid?

> entering into a voluntary contract is theft... ok Stef

Why voluntary? Move if you don't like it.

fuck off toothpaste wetback

By being part of a state, you have to pay taxes. The same way peasants would pay taxes to their lord in feudal times.
If you're unhappy, buy your own land from whatever state and declare your independence.
Good luck having your own country.

Anyone who seriously says this isn't worth arguing with

Except it's not, since states don't own property.
Unless you think to own something all you have to do is say you own it, in which case I own the moon.

you dont because its true

fuck off gold cross wetback, i bet your happy when Mohammed and his 4 friends shove their cock up your son's asshole as he cries at knifepoint

if you dont like it move, cuck

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ROADS
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S

>states don't own property

Territorial Integrity, you idiot

You could also benefit from Tony mugging you and taking all your stuff if Tony decided to use a portion of what he stole from you to buy some gum you like and toss it to you.

Well guess it's okay if Tony mugs you then!

here is the real redpill:

private property is theft

You don't, it's an objectively true statement.

Sure it does. Property is a bundle of rights, some of those rights are yours and some aren't.

>all you have to do is say you own it, in which case I own the moon.

Then defend it, tripfag.

Prove it

Because to me the only thing you look like you own is a cum stained fedora

taxes are legally authorized. theft is illegal. do we really need to explain this shit? yes, nothing is perfectly justified. so what? grow up.

here is the realest redpill

anarcho capitalism, due to uncontrolled private property rights, will lead to neo-feudalism

Why don't you tell us what that is and what connection you think it has to legitimate property claims senpai.

Can't argue with that

Govt tyranny is no longer my friend

Someone has rights I don't?
What are they and how did they get them senpai?

taxation is community participation fee

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this is only true if I can effectively elect not to be part of the state, which I cannot as the state uses violence to secure its property monoploy

>le not an argument maymay

So you're going to pay me every time I encounter your ugly mug in public? Neat! How much you giving me senpai?

>fiat

have you paid taxes before?

It's the principle under which nations defend their territory

Their territory = their property

States can have property rights for the people by which they allow the people to develop their property, but in the end the property is still theirs.

It isnt theft, who do you think pays for the roads? The fire departments who keeps a small fire from burning down your whole town? The police to patrol your neighborhood (maybe dont bring this one up to a retard who actually thinks taxes are theft)? The sewage pipes to run your shit out from under your house?

thats the way the world works, faggot

too bad

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There's four criteria to become a state:
>Specific land
>People living on said land
>Ability to defend said land
>Other states recognizing its existence
So basically. I could become self-sufficient on my land and live on my own. I could refuse to pay taxes and murder kids wandering on my property.
If you can defend, somehow, your land from the police officers, you can pretty much say you have a country.

That doesn't tell us anything at all.
We've gone from "something is property simply by naming it property" to "something is property simply by naming it territory (which is just another word for property)".

Nothing has changed - it's still absurd. I still own the moon.

Renounce your citizenship and leave the country, pretty easy, they won't stop you.

Think of property rights like sticks in a bundle.

Each stick represents a right to a certain action, like renting or mortgaging.

You own some of the sticks in a bundle, the government owns some sticks, and some of the sticks change ownership periodically.

Protip: you can't.

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You understand what territorial claims are, right?

Something is yours if you can defend it. If you can defend your claim on the moon, then the moon is all yours.

Good luck though, since through international treaty, the UN will attempt to defend the moon

If I sold your car in order to give everyone bicycles, is it ok?

Might makes right. Taxation is enforced by superior firepower.

Where did those sticks come from?
How did the government get sticks I didn't get?

>use government currency
>complain when said currency is required to be returned to the government to keep the populous satisfied
just move into the Siberian wilderness and live off the land, poof no taxes

The state owns everything in effect

Might makes right is *really* a sound ethical system for property norms? I think not.

You can't because it is true. Taxation is theft. I never voluntarily agreed to any "social contract".

What makes you think ethics are relevant in the real world? The only thing that matters is what actually happens.

Oh so might = right.
So if I murder you and your family and occupy what used to be your house, it's then my property until I die or it's removed from my... proximity? "Control"?

Neat. You won't have any complaints when I come take it with my guns (that you don't have) then.

It doesn't matter if it's ethical or not

It's the way the world works

Triggered Tyrone.
>if you dont like it move, cuck
Or try to change the country.

The government has almost an effective monopoly and it's hard to change things. Yeah it sucks, but that's the way reality works.

Maybe if we get cities on the oceans things will change due to increased competition. Breaking down the EU etc. would also increase competition and lead to lower taxes and regulations.

Except my taxes have been used to pay for a police force which I can contact to help me out or at the very least jail you for committing crimes against me

But you're always welcome to try

Taxation is basically the bill the government sends you for being a citizen and all the perks that come with it.

If you don't want to pay the bills, you should stop ordering and eating the citizenship soufflé

>roads are theft

So if I assembled a powerful enough force to murder you and your family and take all of your property, you'd still have no complaints.

After all, all I did was make a territorial claim over you and your things and then defend it.

Well you bought your property from someone, who bought it from someone, who bought it from someone, and ultimately, it was bought from the government. The government sold some, but not all of the "sticks in the bundle".

what the fuck do you think war is, you idiot?

Of course he'd have complaints. Why wouldn't he? Do you honestly think the golden rule is a real thing? In real life, I beat you and complain when you beat me.

Enjoy living without electricity, sewerage, military, police, firefighters, many hospitals, or roads. Faggot. Go try to live in the Siberian wilderness and live off the fucking land if you don't want to pay taxes. Taxation is how the world works, even the ancient Romans payed taxes.

Is there no such thing as justice outside government, then?

Just call them racist

Not all property comes from previous property claims. Otherwise there'd be no explanation for how property ever came to exist.
But when you talk about states, no states actually have legitimate property claims - the U.S. might've "bought" areas from Spain/Frace/whatever, but they never actually owned those areas themselves. What it amounted to was a bribe between them - they wouldn't complain or threaten war over those geographical areas if they were paid for them. It had nothing to do with actual property ownership.

It is.

And everything has to die, nature is cruel, the Earth is insignificant in the cosmos, and your mom begged for hot dickings.

We don't live in a magical fairy world. We do practical things for practical results. Don't be a little bitch about the realities of life. A little bit of theft to protect your property rights is a small price to pay.

If you have a better idea, let's hear it.

how's that boot taste you fucking cuck.

There's no such thing as justice at all, in the ideal sense. When people say "justice" they typically mean "getting what I want".

I'm just establishing you have no complaints about being murdered.
And we've done that - you have a nice "life" senpai!

You don't

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking me

Correct
Justice is merely a construct that aids in statistically increasing human survival time and requires the monopoly of force to legitimize.

>even the ancient Romans payed taxes.

And look what happened to those faggots.

Why would it matter if I have complaints?
How is that even slightly relevant?

Oh you can complain, but there's no moral substance to your complaint in a world of might = right.
You have no moral grievance. You weren't unjustly hurt or murdered - you were just hurt or murdered. But there's no reason to care about your whining in such a world.

All of that could be done by the free market.

Why would you argue against it?
That is the case.

You literally didn't make any argument there.
You hand waved a few times and implied a few fallacies.

What do you mean by a legitimate property claim? As I've explained, ownership is a bundle of rights. If you have exclusive rights to land, then you are an owner. It doesn't matter how large the territory.

Its only theft when stupid niggers throw your hard earned money away for chicago hot dogs and give what they don't spend on themselves to people at the bottom of society encouraging them to breed like the mongaloid beasts they are and infest our nation with kids that can't tell the different between having a penis and not having a penis.

That's exactly what I'm saying senpai.
Nobody is gonna care that you were murdered and had your property taken and used as a brothel where your cousins would be raped for decades until they died of syphilis.
Or if they did, them caring won't matter.
You enjoy senpai.

>You weren't unjustly hurt or murdered - you were just hurt or murdered.
Now you're getting it! However, complaining sometimes works as a secondary method of getting what you want. See: Jews.

>electricity, sewerage, military, police, firefighters, many hospitals, or roads
Government didn't invent any of those things nor is it essential in constructing them. Idiot.

You haven't said anything at all about where those rights come from or how they're allocated.
So as far as this conversation is concerned, I have no reason to just accept what you're posited.

GET OFF OF OUR ROADS!!

Gun ownership and self defence bitch. Forming a government is against the NAP as governments use violence to keep power.

That world is our world
We form governments to care aboit thses grievances
Might doesn't make right/wrong as those are mere construct
Might makes what is

It's not theft, it's robbery.
/thread

Actually, I'm a classical liberal / Civic nationalist. I want government out of my life, just not eliminated entirely.

Rights are derived from the use of force or the threat thereof.

So you're basically just advocating that I kill you and take your things whenever I think I can get away with it.
Neat senpai.

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Those things have nothing to do with what I'm talking about

>argue against

That's nonsensical.
What rights do I gain when I drop a pot on your head and end your life exactly?

>our
That's funny.

Just because every 4 yrs I get to vote for who robs me and tells me what to do doesn't make it good. The government is just a gang.

Defending your life can be murder. We all agree to immoral acts for the greater good on some level.