What are your thoughts on universal basic income, Sup Forums?

What are your thoughts on universal basic income, Sup Forums?

Other urls found in this thread:

techrepublic.com/article/amazon-go-grocery-store-replaces-cashiers-with-automation-and-ai/
theafricanspear.com/2016/11/24/obamas-homosexual-donor-arrested-for-child-rape-terrence-bean/
youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU
youtube.com/watch?v=dUxC5ymagRE
youtube.com/watch?v=xgYvzxBoI34
youtube.com/watch?v=xzIxiYacXPU
twitter.com/AnonBabble

It is literally the only possible future for 95% of Sup Forums, and 99% of Sup Forums.

/lgbtqmlp/ should be okay as they'll still have patreon

It's going to happen sooner rather than later. PEI just voted yes on it today. It won't overtake a massive amount of the population like commies believe but people who still work at grocery stores at 25 are going to be fucked.
techrepublic.com/article/amazon-go-grocery-store-replaces-cashiers-with-automation-and-ai/

I suspect a lot more people will try to find methods of making money in things like patreon and kickstarter businesses.

Tell me more.

See has it right

I like the idea, as long as every single person gets the exact same amount. No exceptions for disabilities or anything like that. Just straight $1000 a month for EVERY LEGAL CITIZEN would put a major dent in poverty related crimes, and would lessen competition in higher education, restoring the natural aristocratic order.

sauce

Sounds like the best option to deal with technological unemployment among welfare plans.
Imagine this when white collar jobs are automated too. I fear a future where sub-140 iq people are simply no longer needed.

good if you abolish all other forms of welfare

It makes people lazy and entitled.
Ive been talking to someone who comes from a place with free heatlhcare and gives gibs.
The shit I hear sometimes makes my blood boil. LIke the doctors they dont have to pay for, just because they wont do a ton of extra shit, get called "greedy". When discussing stores, Ive heard "and all they do is take money and give nothing back" Like a retail store is supposed to be a charity or something.

To all the fags going on about automation, why do you think automation will make human labor unnecessary? Under every other big economic change the focus simply drifted. We went from agrarian to industrial to service, when you free labor from one endeavor it means that labor can go work elsewhere and expand the economy and create jobs in the meaning of creating new employment types.

If you would have told a farmer before only 2% of the population is needed to farm yet almost everyone has jobs (besides the unemployed), sure in his mind farming is the only thing and he might think food redistribution is the only option but that wasn't what happened. Why would it be different for us?

Seems to me that it doesn't account for the problems of scarcity, inflation, and our ever increasing population. You pay people just to exist, they're going to do what nature compels them to and bring more people into existence. I can't see UBI surviving the strain that'll put on it.

Mind you, I can't say our current system of "Bill and Melinda Gates have 3 kids, Shaniqua Brown and Tyriq Davis have 4 kids, Shaniqua Brown and Debrawn Jackson have 3 kids, Shaniqua Brown then have 5 kids between 3 men who all claim dey ain't da daddy" is a lot better on that count...

I cannot predict how a free market would absorb all the people displaced by self driving trucks, robots picking up trash, AI replacing 90% of calcenter slaves, but i think it would somehow work out.

Because that is literally the point of automation and AI.

There is nowhere "up" to go. A retail clerk can't get more educated to get a better job when even the better jobs are going to go to robots eventually.

if we had universal income I would quit working, and so would everyone else

where do you get the money from if no one is working?

Neither can the central planners, which is why I think it's strange they have a solution without a problem.

You should judge it on its effects and not it's intentions. For example the self serve thing at McDonald, you might say it's to get rid of cashiers and that's true but that also means the labor can be fried to make the service quicker rather than just cheaper since you'll have more hands doing "work" and not just taking orders. And yeah the point of automation is to reduce human costs in current jobs but not to eliminate human necessity. That's like a farmer saying farm tools will remove the need for human labor, they simply couldn't imagine what was to come after, what other types of labor could be done with all these people not needing to farm. And also all economic revolutions happened over at least half a century, that's enough time for an economy and people to adjust to new economic realities, it won't happen overnight with suddenly millions of people not needing jobs.

See my point above with the farmer. Or a laborer in a factory could have said the same thing also, they couldn't imagine a job at a computer making economic value or even computers. Yet with the information era the freeing up of industrial labor didn't mean everyone was out of a job and wealth redistribution was necessary.

need a source

You're glossing over how easily new jobs were created. When cars replaced horses, not every former stablehand, groom, and farrier smoothly transitioned into a job at a car plant or opened a mechanic's shop. Each time it created bottleneck, and a lot of people struggled as their skills were made obsolete. It put immense strain on our social systems, doubtless quite a few lives were lost to crime, addiction, and suicide.

I see the automation coming as being worse even than what came before, for a few reasons. First, we're badly set up to receive that kind of blow. The US already has a "real" unemployment rate of what, 8%? That's already high enough to burden the system, and a lot of the jobs keeping it that low will be the first on the chopping block.

Second, we generally live longer these days. Previously death acted as a sort of exhaust vent for the...vocationally obsolete. Hunger, syphilis or consumption, a war to go fight in, a lot of preventable causes of death were lurking to claim the destitute. In modern society they're not eliminated, but they're really not the same threat they once were.

Third, when automation really kicks in, it's going to dynamic and wide-reaching beyond anything we've seen before. I mentioned that some particular low skilled jobs will be the first on the chopping block; waiting tables, working fast food, all the usual suspects. But they won't be the only ones. Have you seen the film "Will Work For Free?" There is a credible argument to be made that obsolescence will effect a lot more fairly skilled jobs than you'd easily imagine. It won't be like the combine harvester putting a hundred dudes with scythes out of business; it'll be more like the replicators from Star Trek putting ten-thousand dudes who do damn near anything out of business. I'm exaggerating a bit to get the point across, but I honestly do think the scenario we're facing is pretty unprecedented.

Those are my thoughts.

I get what you're saying but you have to admit things get weird once we develop AI close to being on par with humans. I think it's fair to say it probably will be different from earlier revolutions, with tools as catalysts

Poverty made permanent.
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We are being slid because a major Obama donor and partial author of the Tranny Bathroom Plan has been outed as a child rapist.
theafricanspear.com/2016/11/24/obamas-homosexual-donor-arrested-for-child-rape-terrence-bean/

Central planners are gonna turn the AI revolution into a civil war.
If it where here it would be very likely to see retarded laws like forbidding the AI or severely punishing users.

You don't need to predict that because it will never happen. You must understand that there is a cost to manufacturing in the form of energy and resources. So who is going to front up those costs when they could save trillions by simply paying a human a few dollars an hour.

A human worker is essentially an extremely complex and adaptable machine that cost its employer nothing to produce. It is extremely hard to develop a machine with dexterity similar to a human hand, and currently impossible to do it at scale. Yet their are billions of human hands available for only a few dollars an hour.

How can you fail to understand that? Loss of jobs to automation will be a slow trickle, and there are not even any reliable algorithms that can take the place of talking to a human. It is much harder to develop that stuff than science fiction lets on.

Only if it means the non-prods relinquish their right to vote

plunder

Every hentai is the same

Fine, as long as everyone is forced to raise their kids.

Told it once, told it again.
It won't happen.
The elites will just kill off unnecessary human ballast when full automation has been achieved.
For what purpose would they feel the need to feed myriads of people that basically don't do anything?

Fuck your commie fantasies!

Do you little kids even understand what you are lusting after?

Would Edison ever have pushed electricity into the mainstream in the reality you fucks want?

NOPE.

What else will never be discovered?

You may be right, the system is quite possibly already too propped up by regulations and government interventions that it can't follow a natural path.
Fiat currencies already destroyed real money and slow, benefic deflation. Welfare already created hordes of useless people, quantitative easings already warped the production chains into wrong places.
When a technological wonder comes, the stilts will fall and this propped society will go with it.

Welfare, minimum wage laws, fiat currencies that inflate, these things make it so it's cheaper to make a robot, a self driving truck or a callcenter bot would already be attractive enough without those things.

explain to me how a universal income of 1000 a month wouldn't just make prices go up a 1000 bucks on everyday shit. I don't know much about economics

Ask me when we have Star Trek replicators.

Communism.

I will fight it until I die.

That's not necessarily true. We're talking identical amounts for each person, but only the bare necessity to survive. I think $1000 a month for each citizen would free up a lot of brainpower. There are still going to be TONS of people whom would like to make a lot more than $1000 a month, and thus for those people, it will serve as just a nice pad to their savings. Others will choose to only live on the $1000. Many, I'll admit, will probably choose that. That's good though. It frees up slots in companies for people that truly want them, directly leading to more meaningful and intellectual work produced.

>paying people for simply existing
Fuck off commie.

If people are just given money they wont bother using their brain power.

Idiot socialists think the elites are going to pay the plebs to live. It's a lot more likely that the elites are just going to genocide all the poorfags. Automation might seem like progress but it's actually just another sign of the end times, from my perspective.

UBI would kind of undermine a lot of what we "economics" is today
today, people work rudimentary jobs, to earn money which they are paid for their work
with that money they purchase things that are made by larger (and middle-grade) companies, who use that money to feed back into the lower classes, while siphoning off a significant portion of their own wealth

once people stop working and are on UBI, that whole cycle of economy will be undermined
I think there will come a time when society becomes increasingly divided because of this - fewer and fewer people will have true societal roles and earn money from them, which will be used more and more to capitalise on land and minerals etc. rather than commercial goods
Eventually if that path continues, the automated world will be "run" by a few companies/people

So, in short,no prices won't "go up by 1000 bucks" when people are on UBI, the whole idea of using money for commercial goods will be undermined; if anything there won't be a lower class to exploit and so inflation will actually gradually stop and then reverse

I figure there will just be a great purge at some point leaving only the people in power and their robotic servants..

>Would Edison ever have pushed electricity into the mainstream in the reality you fucks want?
You mean the patent stealing fraud who cribbed all his work from better engineers and then destroyed their careers with slander? No, probably not.

Tesla would totally have pushed electricity into the mainstream in our dirty hippy fantasy, though.

Stupid idea. In a world of scarcity there's no such thing as equal stuff for everyone. What this simply achieves is a fast-tracked inflation.

you don't understand.

The human IS the horse in this sitiuation.

I think it's inevitable at some point. There is simply not enough work to be done by humans anymore and automation is going to increase more and more. Only jobs I can see existing in 50 years are doctors and lawyers.

It's an economic reality but you wont see it in full swing for awhile.

We will go from universal basic income then on to a society without currency all together at some point probably, give or take a few hundred years. In this time period though it's probably ideal to live in because soon nobody will have economic freedom. Like at least in our society you can work hard, get rich and buy a huge ass house, nice car etc in the society in the future it doesn't work like that - it will be you are designated a duty, gain universal income and live in a shitshack and there is no way to get more.

The future is grim. Just be happy that you werent born 100+ years from now. Ideally probably would have been better off being in your parents generation, but by the time society really strips your economic freedom you wont give half a shit about it anyway because you will be old as fuck and probably dying.

Alternatively to prevent that society we probably need to implement population control and enforce it. Get the world population back down to around 1 billion and just continue to decrease it from there. In order to do that though a lot of pajeets, muhammad's and Zhang Wei's are going to have to be killed.

God damn it, I hate this fucking shit.

The smear campaign against Thomas Edison has been the biggest mindfuck of anything I've ever seen. Seeing what (((they)))'ve done to him over the years has made me sick to my stomach. Thomas Edison was a great man, a titan of industry, a man to be respected and revered in America, and every day I read him attacked and slandered in an attempt to reduce him to rubble on the back of this dream meme machine reddit commie autist named Tesla.

It's fucking disgusting, tbqhwy.

It'll either become a necessity or a lot of mother fuckers gonna die:
youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU

its either UBI or the world we see in elysium

Clearly. That must explain the historical under representation of royalty, aristocrats, and the leisure classes among the arts and sciences.

>lawyers

Lawyers will be replaced by advanced chatbots with comprehensive legal knowledge and text to speech programs.

All valid points, but it still doesn't change the basic principals of an economy. Which is there will always be limited resources and the "economy" dictates how those resources are used. As the canadian user already said, just because we "automated" farming to make it more efficient didn't lead to only 2% of farmers working while everyone else on the planet simply received a universal food subsidy to live off of.

Just because we can't predict where the next new growth will be, doesn't mean it won't happen. If you could predict it, you would be making trillions of dollars off investments right now. Going back to the farming example, since there are fewer farms, there is literally whole industries around getting that food to consumers since majority of people do not grow their own food anymore. Grocery stores, transporting, etc. And from those new fields, you see branches off them. Truck manufacturers for transport, transport companies, construction workers for roads, etc. Point is, a lot of these lead to pinball effects that literally effects an infinite number of fields.

You backed a fraud and can't handle the cognitive dissonance of knowing you were taken in. Got it.

Some won't. Some will. If someone was giving you $1000 a month to meet your basic needs, would that stop you from working or learning? I'd still wan't Audis and Porsches myself, and $1000 a month isn't going to cut it. It's unlikely everyone would suddenly give up their worldly aspirations.

Think about Aristocratic societies, wherein the richest most comfortable people were able to achieve the greatest discoveries in art and science. These people, while being extreme examples, goes to show that there is some merit in never having to worry about the stresses of life.

Well, they were the only ones who actually got an education and knew how to read besides the clergy for most of western history.

Doctor here, we will definitely largely be replaced - they've done studies with AIs vs. radiologists already and shown that AIs perform better at reading certain scans. Radiologists will go first - maybe next 15 years - then other docs will go quickly.
Medicine is evidence-based which means that as soon as something is shown to be more effective than what we are currently doing, it gets replaced pretty quickly.

Stop thinking in terms of right now and what you or people you know would do, the problem is what will happen 100 years from now.

The problem will be the generations being born after the change and never having an impetus to work.

>You backed a fraud

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Listen to yourself. Just listen to yourself.

"Hurr durr I believe every single thing I've ever read about someone."

I'm not even saying Edison was a good person. I'm saying he was a great man. And they've tried to smear him for obvious reasons and you've taken the bait believing in commie horseshit propaganda.

He was all of those great things you said, but he was also kind of a scumbag. You have to take the good with the bad.

its terrible and nobody here should be supporting it
the end goal of universal basic income is for a large part of the population to become dependent on it as their primary income source which means the government has complete power over what you get or dont get, communism

Who the fuck is paying for this?
Why the fuck do you deserve free money?
No.

The workplace is designed for everyone to fail except for the top 20%. I have no choice but to be for universal basic income.

Even with a degree you are still working 10-12 hour days. This is wrong. 8 hour days should be the absolute maximum, no matter what field unless you are making overtime.

LOL jesus what kind of brainwash leftist faggot are you?

What's the point of even keeping 90% of the population alive at that point? Might as well just start a Eugenics program aimed at drastically reducing the world's population and only allowing the most intelligent and accomplished people to breed.

What if I want to work 12 hour days to make more money?

Am I allowed to do that?

Are you going to stop me from working longer and harder for myself and my family?

real edgy mate but it has nothing to do with universal basic income

Communism. State control the high paying jobs, and minimum income everything else.

I'm talking about after automation takes over almost all jobs and the vast majority of people are simply left with nothing to do.

I am thinking of the future, and no, that will not occur. People will still be educated and trained for new tasks, but based on desire and merit, not race denial, NCLB, and Affirmative Action. The intellectual cream would rise to the top again, rather than be drowned out by a sea of random noise from low IQ "graduates" and "experts".

People always want to explore space, they will always want to know the meaning of life, they will always attempt to educate one another. There will also be useless eaters, sure, and their population should be quelled with free birth control and healthcare. There should be incentive for them to NOT reproduce. Eventually, if they don't keep up intellectually, the new-poor would become so alien to us that we could potentially just cut them loose as a species. They might resort to tribalism in other words, and regress. Interesting shit.

So because you're willing to become a slave, I must become unemployed? If you are willing to work for 12 hours a day, and I am willing to work for 8 hours a day for the same pay then the boss will always hire you and never me. What happens when someone comes along and is willing to work for 14 hours a day? You will lose your job unless you work 14.

If that is the game you force me to play then again I must vote for my self interest and that is for basic income.

How is this leftist brainwashing? This is what happens in the real world. Working 12 hour days is normal in nearly any field.

My biggest question about this is: If they want to just kill 90% of the population, why would they spend all this money and effort making self-driving trucks which mostly deliver food to people?
Why make robotic doctors if most people will be gone and won't be using them?
Why make robot cooks at restauruants if most peope will be gone?
Why make AI lawyers if most people will be gone?

Think about how much money hospitals, McDonald's, Amazon, and State courts would lose if 90% of the population just vanished. Doesn't make sense to me.

well you know how dysfunctional people get when they're on welfare?

imagine that, but that's everyone

if I weren't living in a multicultural paradise I'd find it much more viable

Not going to happen anytime soon. It requires people too be underneath the population supporting. Like how if it was implemented in Canada we would need cheaper goods and would need more farms. Cheaper goods means that the little girl in that sweat shops now making nothing. Universal income could work in a world with everything being automated other wise someone in the world will be oppressed by the economy. You would honestly need to get rid of capitalism, but that won't happen for another 100 years.

Your arguments are tired.

I used to say the same crap when I as a kid too.

You will grow up eventually.

tfw you think you're redpilled but didn't know that the 1% could do this to you already if they wanted to

a different name for welfare checks.

It would be rather difficult for them to do that in earnest at this point. It'll be much easier to control people when they have no hand in producing anything and are solely reliant on a universal basic income.

UBI is good

video related
youtube.com/watch?v=dUxC5ymagRE

its just communism lite.

youtube.com/watch?v=xgYvzxBoI34

Retards on this site thinking UBI is like welfare is making me lose faith in humanity.

UBI doesn't waste 75% of resources on bureaucracy and it doesn't provide an incentive to not work.

If your argument is nobody should get a damn thing I'd agree with you but it's politically fucking impossible right now. So replacing welfare with UBI is absolutely the way to go.

Globalization Litterally paying an allowance to own your ass.
Expect to be bought, sold, then harvested.
Plus if you have an owner, you forfeit your right to vote.

UBI makes you happy youtube.com/watch?v=xzIxiYacXPU

idk. im not opposed to it so long as i can pursue my interests and exercise my rights as i do currently. Am i free to make more money? This potentially solves a lot of problems for people but raises a great deal more questions that the problems it solves. not everybodys equal in their capacity for success, so how do we adjust accordingly?

The true redpill is realising the 1% want the best for humanity, the steps they are taking are leading us off this planet.

>Automation might seem like progress but it's actually just another sign of the end times, from my perspective.

If the automation is controlled by the elite the rest of us are extremely vulnerable. Most people cannot build a car, yet we have autonomous cars for the general person. With automation it's more like railroad tycoon at the moment - not good for the general folk.

dumb idea.
remove illegal immigrants and fuck companies in the ass when they try to outsource. more jobs than workers adds pressure in the workers favor.

It's slightly less wasteful than welfare but it's still communism and communism has NEVER worked.

the error will be corrected

thanks to progress, your end will be calm and it will feel good
we all have to die anyways

> and 99% of Sup Forums.


DELETE THIS NOW

they are not there yet.
At the moment they're just using the technology to reap more benefits - using the established system.
It's a minority industry still.
When it becomes all and everything - things will change.

Automation can't even give you an automatic cleaning apartment.

You don't have to worry about it any time soon
> b-but muh intelligent generalized AI!
The only logical outcome for AI is to conclude that communism can't work, mutants are degenerates, other city AIs are the enemy, and no one except trusted programmers should have any power.

no thanks. The NEET needs to be trained to do the job so they can finally stop being a parasite

And how exactly is he gonna get trained if he's on welfare? With UBI he doesn't lose a thing and gets trained.

> UBI
> Training
These systems do not overlap in any way. Can you explain how they do?

My point is you're still getting gibs while you're training/in education. Meanwhile you lose welfare if you do those things.

UBI does not guarantee nor enforce training.

Welfare guarantees that you CAN NOT train as it will actively fuck you up the ass for trying.

Less shitty shit is still pretty shitty.

>enforce training
Ah so it's to the gulag then? Well good thing we got rid of that communist UBI.

You can open up education without IMMEDIATELY jumping into communism, m8.

>open up education
Wtf does that even mean? So forced training and public schooling? And i'm the commie for defending UBI.... holy fuck

UBI but with complete corporate deregulation and a cut of all other gibsmedats seems cool.