Life long atheist here. Jordan Peterson has made the first compelling argument I've ever heard for religion: that it's not made up, but is in fact to morality as the common law is to law. I.e. a set of principles discovered (***not created***) by eons of human experience with the goal of achieving the optimal way to *be* human. JP paints the world we live in as a real hell on earth, and I can't disagree with him.
Nietzsche forecast the death of god. Is he back? Is this it, is the west now returning to Christendom? Are we returning because of JP alone? Is this man a literal saviour of damned souls?
People have been saying that for years. Peterson is just exceptionally smart and convincing.
Nathan Baker
This. Atheist having shitting on these ideas for decades and Peterson managed to say all the right words in the right order that made atheist think for the first time that maybe religion isn't stupid and shouldn't be banned. Atheist can eat a dick
Eli Robinson
The fact that you needed Jordan Peterson to tell you that means you are retarded.
Austin Morris
Well religious stories aren't true in the scientific sense. Modern epistemology is all clustered around the scientific method. Really people who believe religious stories without a measure for truth are retarded.
Jack Stewart
C.S.Lewis made this same retarded argument half a century ago. >Wow, people tend to believe some things are better than others and that people can be bad for doing bad things. >Somehow this proves Christianity
Nicholas Cruz
Do you think the common law is objective and valuable?
James Reed
Atheists have been BTFO constantly.
The only difference is that religious people and atheists pretty much speak different languages so the atheist attacks what is basically a translation error.
Peterson is the only one who can talk theology in the atheist language.
Hunter King
Not saying you're wrong there, but anybody with basic reasoning can reach the conclusion he brings up.
Matthew Sanders
All I know is if Peterson was leading an army, I would enlist
Kayden Allen
>Not saying you're wrong there, but anybody with basic reasoning can reach the conclusion he brings up.
No they can't. I've never heard it stated exactly before that our religious heritage is the MORAL version of the common law. In particular never with evidence.
The idea that our cultural religious morality has been refined and developed systematically through the lives, experience and suffering of thousands of generations is a significant insight.
Caleb Sanders
A link would make this thread better.
Sebastian Parker
>Peterson is the only one who can talk theology in the atheist language.
Exactly, the ONLY one. And he is growing quickly in popularity as well.
>The idea that our cultural religious morality has been refined and developed systematically through the lives, experience and suffering of thousands of generations is a significant insight Yes it is. But Peterson got it from Jung, it's not new.
Juan Powell
love this motherfucker. all hail his new glorious army.
Dominic Reyes
>Jung On my reading list thank you
Alexander Gonzalez
His argument for religion is fundamentally not one that requires anything supernatural and intentionally separates doctrine from belief. It requires the recognition of transcendance, the concept of an ideal or perhaps a thing greater than you could ever be that awes and inspires you. In his definition, anyone that places their values (e.g. the pursuit of truth) at that apex is a religious person, therefore some self-described atheists would be considered religious if they fit that definition even if they themselves have no supernatural beliefs.
This is very similar to what Carl Jung proposed if not exactly the same with regards to religiosity.
Asher Smith
so basically:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_morality >P1: If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist. >P2: Objective moral values and duties do exist. >C: Therefore, God exists. right?
i've always thought this argument was bad because it's difficult to back up the second premise to staunch materialists (most atheists)
It's not an argument that God exists; it's an argument that religion is good for human society.
Michael Hall
>dude don't fuck your neighbors wife >treat others as you would yourself >make friends not enemies Of course its all moral. Even parables should be noted if you don't believe in God because those still impart things that should be learnt regardless of religion. Even though its not law to do these things its good to do them anyway because people won't see you to be a huge douche
Jordan Baker
It's not a fallacy: 1. If not P then not Q 2. Q 3. Therefore P
It's logically sound.
Matthew Garcia
wrong
oh, who cares
Matthew Hughes
>who cares Humans, presumably.
Samuel Sanchez
Lol it is a fallacy.
If it does not rain my plants will not grow. My plants grew. Therefore it must have rained.
WRONG I watered them.
David Evans
Atheists argue that either objective moral values exist without God, or that truly objective moral values don't exist, only subjective ones do.
Hudson Green
If your plants grew and it didn't rain then "If it does not rain my plants will not grow." is false.
Jackson Phillips
social ones, but anti-social behavior tends to net the individual better results. not sure why anyone ought to give a shit what's best for society in a godless world.
Wyatt Ward
>If your plants grew and it didn't rain then "If it does not rain my plants will not grow." is false.
No you're confusing single implication with double implication.
If and only if there is a frost will my plants will bare fruit. (Double implication.) My plants bore fruit. Therefore there must have been a frost.
In single implication the causal direction is one way.
Jeremiah Diaz
>The stories from the bible are about morals not documenting historical events
Gee, you think?
Still bible sucks when it comes to moral laws. Moral laws are fundamentally inconsistent. If you need laws to know the difference between right and wrong you probably aren't a good person to begin with. That's why I stopped going to church. Lots of bad people looking to get credit for not doing good things. Also why I hate the idea of political correctness. Makes it easier for sociopaths to blend in and trick others that they are good people.
Trust your gut and don't lie. That's the only "law" I follow.
Andrew Fisher
>If I ignore reality, mathmatical reality, it is no longer true You're looking at the reason, right fucking there, you fucking moron. 2 years total vs 3 or 4 years total. Fuck you.
Sebastian Parker
We must each discover god on our own. Ask yourself - what is a god?
Joseph Turner
why are people like you this retarded
how come you accept theory as a fact and something to become cultist for just like that?
kill yourself
Logan Lewis
>Nietzsche forecast the death of god. Is he back? Is this it, is the west now returning to Christendom? Are we returning because of JP alone? Is this man a literal saviour of damned souls?
>Its been 8 years since I started browsing Sup Forums >I have never hated normalfag more until this point 8 years later
Telling you to lurkmoar just doesn't cut it.
Joseph Miller
>If you need laws to know the difference between right and wrong you probably aren't a good person to begin with.
They are principles rather than prescriptive laws right, I guess except for the 10 commandments which are prescriptive.
Morality is an incredibly non trivial thing. How do you be moral to yourself, to your family and to your society all at the same time in the same actions?
Calling the principles contradictory is just hanging a "too hard" latent on the exact thing I'm talking about. It's precisely because there are competing forces at work that a common law style morality is necessary. How else do you have a system both flexible and objective enough to account for any real situation?
James Stewart
>to become cultist
Atheists need to be shot
Owen Clark
No, because of the negative (plants not growing, morals not existing). "If it does NOT rain, my plants will NOT grow" is logically equivalent to "If my plants grow, it rained".
"If and only if it does NOT rain, my plants will NOT grow." is different and means it not raining is the only way your plants won't grow.
Easton Williams
Same here, I was saying this for a week now and I feel like JP answers most of average /polack thoughts. If you're lazy, here is 2 hour interview which sums up everything. youtube.com/watch?v=07Ys4tQPRis
>how come you accept theory as a fact and something to become cultist for just like that?
Everyone accepts theory as fact. Is the scientific method a fact? Is induction a fact? No. These are literally pragmatic models we use to perform a job. We never know the actual truth, as in an exact model, because there's always more complexity beyond our ability to model, right down to the fundamental uncertainty of the universe where the unknown is physically unknowable in the form of uncollapsed wave functions.
Asher Lee
you can read this really long boring explanation of the specific formulation of the argument from morality that i posted earlier by the guy who formulated that specific one if you're bored enough:
>however since it is **discovered** it is also an argument against religion, because there is no deity involved, just 'what works best'.
It very much depends on how you interpret deity. As an abstract idea or a set of ideals... the meta hero then it still has one.
JP makes the argument that our ancestors didn't have object models in their heads, so when they talked about things they were using percepts. Ghosts and spirits are basically just abstract concepts by our way of thinking. I think this is a very interesting idea.
Aiden Perez
Are you dumb or just shilling? He never argued for Gods existence. He just claimed that religion gives us moral guidelines. I swear, these fake "I used to support Trump but I guess I'm a #CruzMissile now" type atheist posts are getting dumb.
Connor Williams
Yet another theist or rather Christian that talks his own brand of nonsense that theists/Christians feel is a highly moving argument that will surely sway those atheists.
While he just seems like an exceptionally pedantic theist to most atheists.
I also like how op starts off with about being a life long atheist. It's like having a 7 year old try to lie to you. Do you actually think any atheists believe you?
Isaac Martinez
Also lifelong atheist here. I always had a feeling/a theory that religion is good as an establisher of a common morality so groups can live and work together. It also expand your tribe neatly to strangers, like "you're a christian so I can trust you and we have common ground hot to behave". I never really though about the underlying truth, that over thousands of years the more optimal behavior and lessons would survive. It does NOT prove the truth of christianity or the existence of god in a scientific sense, but there is truth underneath the ideology and dogma (which Peterson would say gives it the necessary structure).
Sebastian Cook
That implies all you are trading is their time inside for yours. Snitching has social ramifications. You're not even a narcissist, or a sociopath. You're probably just funposting. Go beat your meat to , faggot.
Jayden Martinez
Retard P may mean Q but Q does not necessarily mean P basic logic
I ran, therefore i exercised I exercised Therefore i must have ran
Nope i fucked your mother that exercised my dick fagit
Aaron Wood
CS Lewis did it first.
Look up his talks on Christianity on jewtube.
Only idiots don't believe in God. Most of them don't want to believe because they are degenerate faggots.
Brandon Richardson
>existence of god. Yes but what is god as an object... flying floating entity isn't really what they meant by god? Then you are mistranslating the intent of the writing. A bit like if we wrote down the words "mother nature" today and someone dug them up in 10,000 years and was like "pfft I can't see any proof of a woman in the sky, idiots"
Brayden Ramirez
>Snitching has social ramifications. that was my point though, there's no reason for the individual to give a shit if it benefits him
Brayden Flores
>It very much depends on how you interpret deity. Exactly as it has always been presented to me but theists; A sort of magical sky wizard.
>Ghosts and spirits are basically just abstract concepts by our way of thinking. I think this is a very interesting idea. Nothing abstract about the idea that consciousness is separate from the physical body and continues after the death of the body.
Caleb Bailey
>JB paints the world we live in as a real hell on earth wrong only some poeople live in hell, its psychological state heaven is nirvana
Aaron Baker
He argues for god's existence by reinterpreting what is meant by god, and effectively arguing that theists are currently misinterpreting it.
Aaron Gonzalez
God is Transcendence, which means everything "you don't know" or "can't grasp". Militant Atheist types would mock this as God Of The Gaps, but I think it is deeper and more significant than that. If you ever think that there will a point in human development where the Transcendent is not the Infinite, then you are some uber-scientific idiot.
Samuel Wright
>Do you actually think any atheists believe you? I don't care if you do or not lol.
The moral fabric of society needs to be rebuilt, most people would strongly agree. Where that rebuilding is going to come from is not clear. It is clear it's not going to come from the left. It is also clear that atheists have done a shitty job of putting forward any new moral standard, generally speaking. This is the chance for churches to step up their game.
Kevin Phillips
he is not misinterpreting the current understanding is misinterpretation
Julian Reyes
link to the video please
Ryder Collins
What /'m getting at is Peterson doesn't try to prove the literal existence of the christian god, and I doubt CS Lewis achieves this
Adam Hughes
Christcucks and religious mongs in general fail to mention how the greek writings of Aristotle and Epictitus etc lay a FAR greater moral framework down for us to follow without superstitious wank and a demand for literal worship of a cuck jew. Religious texts do not hold a monopoly on guides to life.
Cameron Gutierrez
Exactly. I'm somewhat thinking about going to church (literally for the first time ever) to see if I can sit through it without cringing on the basis of a new perspective on what is actually contained in the teachings.
I'm a physicist by training. So my scientific way of thinking is pretty unshakable.
Aiden Hall
Jung apparently claimed the Aryan unconscious was far richer than the Jewish one. It was also claimed he said Jews were an inferior race who would never have a defining culture of their own. Of course anti-semitism was thrown at him
He was a genius and a beacon of light. I'm surprised Sup Forums does not talk about him more.
Nathan Reyes
Hey man don't burst their little relicuck-bubble. Just because their brains can't comprehend the next level of human progress, doesn't mean they can't put all their faith in a made-up character.
Easton Martinez
>Peterson being amazing >now religious fundies faggot think that this is a secret license to tell people to eat shit
Yeah that's clearly the spirit in which Peterson is talking.
Nathaniel Watson
>Nothing abstract about the idea that consciousness is separate from the physical body and continues after the death of the body.
Literally we don't know if that's true. It may actually be. I'm a physicist. Wave function collapse (the measurement problem) is a huge issue for physics and as been for almost a century. What causes consciousness in the brain is unknown to this day. Why anesthetic works is unknown. Rats fed lithium 6 and 7 react differently, which they shouldn't because they are chemically identical. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3019440
This suggests that consciousness is affected by more than just chemical forces. Potentially it is a quantum behaviour, we don't know.
But also this can be taken as abstract. Your consciousness is not metaphysically present in your body when you are asleep. You experience a dreamscape.
Go for it. I think a catholic or orthodox church would be best, because they have retained some of the mysticism, where protestants are much too enlightenment and literal for my taste (but I grew up catholic so).
Ayden Turner
Glad this wasn't just me... also lifelong atheist and I also work in physics, I don't know if I'd actually go to church, but listening to what this guy has to say has totally turned my perspective and previous stance on religion on it's absolute ass.
Leo Evans
> I'm a physicist. Wave function collapse (the measurement problem) is a huge issue for physics and as been for almost a century No, you're not and no, it isn't. Quantum mysticism is not physics.
Jose Garcia
Haha alright Deepak.
Isaiah Smith
For christianity atleast you can't be christian without going to church. The services/traditions are required to have an understanding of the material.
There is also community and many other positive aspects of churches. Highly depends what denomination you go too, I'd rec reading it more of course.
Good podcast on history of the different christian doctrines, you will see interested trends how the culture is very much a product of the religon.
Chase Powell
I have a degree that says I am lol.
Quantum mysticism is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the completely real problem of what causes wave function collapse.
In Copenhagen (the mainstream interpretation) it is simply stated that a measurement is something that is made with a measuring device. However this remains a subtle reference to consciousness collapsing the wave function. Because if the measurement device is NOT READ by a human then it becomes part of the evolving wave function, part of the system. And if it is NEVER READ then the wave function will not have collapsed on account of its existence. And this is quite easily provable in a lab.
It's not a bad read. Peterson has no problem talking about religion in phenomological terms, mapping that to the structure of the brain, linking it with other myth, seeing religion as being the manifestation of a sort of collective process in which actions are represented in compressed narrative forms, whereby their being remembered indicates that they capture something fundamental about the activity of our mind and thus says something profound about human nature. He talks about fear, chaos, danger, order, life, death.
He's really trying to create a fairly powerful synthesis.
Cameron Clark
If you bothered to study even a little mythology you would have come to the value religion has had for civilization much faster.
As far as I know, Peterson wasn't calling for a resurgence in Christianity and religion as we've known it, but more that there will be (or should be) a lot of time spent on figuring out how to proceed when it comes to shared cultural values after everything that happened in the 20th century.
Xavier Moore
I refuse to believe you managed to attain a degree in physics while harboring such a fundamental misunderstanding of quantum physics r.e. the collapse of wave functions. Collapse does not require a conscious observer.
Carson Morales
>If you bothered to study even a little mythology you would have come to the value religion has had for civilization much faster.
Honestly though why would any scientist (in the sense of scientific method) do this? It really has to be brought to our attention some other way.
Nolan Richardson
>Collapse does not require a conscious observer.
Here's another person who confuses decoherence with collapse.
Luke Moore
> implying morality is some sort of social construct on which somebody has a claim > implying his version is superior
Jace Walker
Yeah, I'm reading it at the moment and have watched his lecture series,
>Christfags still worshipping their dead kike on a stick even after Kek has demonstrated miracles in the modern era Christfags are kinda pathetic, aren't they? Out of place and out of time.
Michael Allen
That's a cat
Ryder Green
Laws are created, not discovered. Are you sure you aren't stupid?
Matthew Price
Thomas Sowell pretty much summarizes the same thing too in his book conflict of visions.
Honestly read any text on common law and you will realize this. Every legal principle is as a consequence of a new case of actual people actually tried and the justice extracted from it by reasoned argument and analysis.
Jose Perry
When I was in college the required gen ed history course students take in freshman/sophomore year covered the importance of mythology and religion.
Not in a super in depth kind or psychological kind of way at the level Peterson approaches it, but enough to get across that a force like Christianity was pretty fucking important to the development what western civilization and culture values when it comes to what a generally virtuous and capable society looks like.
I dunno if they still teach history courses like that involving at least some mythology study, or if it's even required
William Kelly
By your logic sex fetishes are discovered, and not created, thus are given to us by a higher power.
Joshua Phillips
>The natural universe has no inherent ethics or morals >Humans need ethics and morals for their everyday behavior >Therefore the deity _you happen to believe in_ exists
Nope, he didn't say anything new, people have been throwing this about for a long time.
Colton Walker
Literally the only required course in my B.Sc was statistics. (Ignoring courses required for physics major.) I can certainly see the value in teaching more general groundwork courses.
Michael Powell
How many redpills can a man take before he goes insane
Sebastian Taylor
>Ethics are inherent in human behaviour and in the structure of being >They just need to be extracted and distilled out of experience >Religious writings provide one such distillation
Noah Ramirez
The Pope is not legitimate! He is a plant of Soros and the Obama administration!
The proofs are in this analysis, unfortunately it's in Italian. But for everyone to see here is a mail send from John Podesta to Sandy Newman: >“Newman: There needs to be a Catholic Spring, in which Catholics themselves demand the end of a middle ages dictatorship and the beginning of a little democracy and respect for gender equality in the Catholic church. (…) Podesta: We created Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good to organize for a moment like this. But I think it lacks the leadership to do so now. Likewise Catholics United. Like most Spring movements, I think this one will have to be bottom up”.
