CATHOLIC GENERAL - Behold Thy Mother Edition

-Talk about the faith
-Ask questions and have them answered
-Listen to sweet chant:

youtube.com/watch?v=Dlr90NLDp-0
youtube.com/watch?v=0U-fERimjL4

aaaandd GO!

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=-oagv9-fWpM
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disconfirmed_expectancy
en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/mass
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

Continued from here:

Thanks for the thread. Public safety user here.

Mother Marry

Does anybody else think that Catholicism is low key pretty polytheistic? I mean, first off there's
the trinity- basically 3 gods maybe.
Satan- basically an evil god you could say.
But the main thing is the saints, and Mary. Like, you can pray to them, so they're basically gods. It can be argued that saints that are the patron saints of whatever, are the same thing as gods that are the gods of whatever.
Thoughts?

I just realized when I was going through night school at Church to take my first Holy Communion that I hadn't learned much from the night classes. I would be tired from school previously in the day and be asleep sometimes in the class.

I also just realized I haven't taken my Confirmation yet and I'm almost 25 years old.

Is that bad?

You have to go to RCIA.

>Is this problematic in some way?
Extremely as political power waxes and wanes to much for it to be a measure of objective truth. Hence the Roman and Chinese Religions were true until Christianity which was kind of true until Islam rose ect.

Not only that but gaining political power was often done in very unchristian ways. Burning Libraries temples and murdering pagans who attempted to worship as well as genocide.

Scientology and Mormonism are two modern religions that are very useful to study when it comes to this kind of issue.

>It gives me a way to spot red flags in religious doctrines.

I see it as turning all doctrines into one big redflag and changing theology into politics.

>By the way, where did that leave you?

Kind of bothered as I thought I had this whole Christian question figured out. I could no longer just handwave protestant claims after that.

What was most disillusioning was discovering the willingness of its followers to lie and deceive me as to the church's history and the ancient records - it was very reminiscent of the leftists in point 15 of this picture.

It's not bad. If you've been baptized you can go to confession and receive communion after. I was baptised as a child but was never confirmed. I came back when I was 19 and wasn't confirmed until I was 21.

This. It will be an opportunity to learn more and become a soldier for christ with the sacrament of confirmation.

>Am I worthy of Lord's forgiveness despite my sin?

My friend, this is the very central teaching of Jesus. It is the foundation of the new covenant. The main difference that Jesus made during his life on earth is to make this well known: Forgiveness is available to all! As long as you TRULY repent and let the lord into your heart, he will forgive your sins no matter what they are. The Lord's forgiveness is limitless beyond our understanding. The Lord's love for us is again limitless beyond our understanding. You need only to seek it truly and honestly and so you shall have.

By the technical apostolic argument they are not polytheistic however of all branches of Christianity they are the easiest for polytheists to come into as their practices whilst not polytheism are very very close to it.

This gives me feels every time, when Mary comes up to Jesus

youtube.com/watch?v=-oagv9-fWpM

It might sound a bit corny, but I feel almost like I've been saved just from finding these threads.

I've been having a lot of dark thoughts lately and this helps bring light into my life.

Well no.

>the trinity- basically 3 gods maybe.

God is one. The trinity is one of relations, not that of distinct natures between them. An example of what I mean would be Augustine's: The relationship between The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit is akin to Mind, Self-Knowledge, and Self-Love.

>Satan- basically an evil god you could say.

No, this is a modern misunderstanding.

>But the main thing is the saints, and Mary. Like, you can pray to them, so they're basically gods. It can be argued that saints that are the patron saints of whatever, are the same thing as gods that are the gods of whatever.

Catholics understand prayer to saints to be asking someone in Heaven to pray for them. This is not worship and does not make them gods in any practical sense or traditional sense. Same with Mary.

Confirmation this late is not an issue. Heading to classes and not learning is not good. You should try to get refresher work from your parish. Anything we can help you on info-wise?

>

She was the first red pill women

Hey have you updated your guide on Orthodoxy theres another aus user who could really benefit from your perspective

I'll look into RCIA.

I am going to look into getting confirmed as soon as I take it upon myself and learn more into Catholicism as I should have when I was 12.

This hit me.

Should I read the Bible in its entirety? I want to learn it all again, I will seek getting a refresher from my local parish as you suggested.

So whats the deal on masturbation? Is it really considered sexually immoral and sinful?

I hope I never have to take somebody's life. I respect your decision, friend. You, while snuffing out someone's life, helped further and save others by doing what you had to do.

This is my dilemma, how will I feel if I have to do it. I've seen firsthand what death causes and I don't want to have to willingly place that sorrow on anyone if I can help it. But I understand sometimes it's inevitable. My wording was bad in this post, you did what you needed to do. But I totally understand you 100%.

The lord sends you only the challenges he knows you can handle. In fact, when the Lord challenges you it's not to break you down; It's in order to build you up. The guidance you may receive here or anywhere isn't just from us, it's from HIM through us.

He's a mysterious and wily one, that LORD. But you'll always get where he wants you to go, you just need to work with the big guy.

>Hence the Roman and Chinese Religions were true until Christianity which was kind of true until Islam rose ect.
By doesn't that follow the narrative of Christianity completely? Also Islam did not replace Catholicism. Without Rome, there would be no Church. That's how the revelation came to pass. Are you suggesting there was a better way? That God did something wrong?

>Scientology and Mormonism
Popular but non-nonsensical.

>changing theology into politics
One cannot exist without the other. I should state that theology does not require being the top dog or the top of society, it only needs room to follow its trajectory. Religion and politics have always had a relationship and the only difference is metaphysical claims.

A hermit on a mountain with the absolute truth does the world a disfavour because he tells no one. Dissemination is spirituality.

Catholicism is the church of Satan and the Whore of Babylon

I have not. I really regret saying that but things are never easy over here. I apologize. Any particular issue that the user wished to confront, however?


I recommend it, but with many stipulations.
As a general refresher, I would recommend the Catholic Catechism. This is the collection of doctrinal Catholic teaching in plain text and directly said. There are additional commentaries on it if you need it.

The Bible is an extremely valuable read but you must remember that the Bible isn't a book but a collection of books so going cover-to-cover doesn't aid you at all. Moreso when you realize that each book has their own genre, history, structure, etc. It is better to head to the relevant books you wish to research currently and use commentaries. Scott Hahn has good commentaries and for a good study bible I'd recommend the Ignatius Study Bible. Ultimately, reading the whole Bible is valuable but without assistance on the scholarship of the text you may get confused or, more likely, waste your time.

The Catechism is free and online as well.

>2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

>To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

Good to have you, Prot. We couldn't have a thread without you.

...

>Let our child raping Pagan intellectuals interpret God's Word, trust us user. The Protestant Reformation never happened

Rather, let the teaching authority guided by the Holy Spirit teach accurately rather than hoping for unity from textual criticism from the masses.

Forgot a picture

...

Cracker eating satan worshipper thread? Haha. Fuck goats you Mooslims (thats what Holy Faddah wants zu to become since catholics dont believe jesus really did anything).

...

>hope doesnt disappoint

ivory tower coddled faggot. opinion and literary works discarded

>St. Paul
>ivory tower

Oh
how
little
you
know

You probably don't know much about his life then do you?

Are they servants of Christ? I’m talking like a madman — I’m a better one: with far more labors, many more imprisonments, far worse beatings, near death many times. Five times I received 39 lashes from Jews. Three times I was beaten with rods by the Romans. Once I was stoned by my enemies. Three times I was shipwrecked. I have spent a night and a day in the open sea. On frequent journeys, I faced dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my own people, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the open country, dangers on the sea, and dangers among false brothers; labor and hardship, many sleepless nights, hunger and thirst, often without food, cold, and lacking clothing. Not to mention other things, there is the daily pressure on me: my care for all the churches. Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation?
2 Corinthians 11:23-29

Another more fundamental issue i have even when I go to confession and get out of mortal sin for just a little while is...how do you guys deal with the knowledge of how sinful you are? Like honestly I think about all the evil inclinations I have, all the laziness, all the timidity, all the anger, and all the rest, and then I look at the saints, and I just wonder...how do I get to where they got from where I am?

It's a bit hard where I am because honestly the sort of catholics my age don't care to much for this kind of traditional way of looking at the faith. It's all about feelz and praise and worship protestant-lite rock masses and making the faith into a club.

It's just, where do I go for that comradery to encourage me (and for me to encourage them) into becoming saints?

>teaching authority
Catholic Church collects hundreds of millions of dollars from ignorant people every year, still teaches Purgatory, the Infallible Pope, praying to Mary, and a million other anti-Bible lies.

Btw Appeal To Authority is a logical fallacy. Every person saved by repenting of sin in prayer to Jesus Christ is given the Holy Spirit and the Bible says there is only ONE mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ. No need for child rapists called priests. No need for a faggot sitting on a throne calling himself God on Earth, claiming to speak for God.

>hoping for unity
Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather DIVISION: 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
>masses
There is no such thing as "the masses" as you insultingly call the priesthood of believers.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

>By doesn't that follow the narrative of Christianity completely? Also Islam did not replace Catholicism. Without Rome, there would be no Church. That's how the revelation came to pass.

My point is more that God really does let us have free will with all its ugly consequences and that we really have to be careful about applying acts of men to Gods work.

For instance would you say that the fact that Islam blitzed Eastern Christianity in the middle east and North Africa and defeated the Christians in the Crusades meant that God was on their side.

>Popular but non-nonsensical.
I didnt mean study their doctrines but the history of their formation and development of doctrines. New religious movements give great insight into historical ones.

Heres an interesting yet seemingly counterintutive study that gives insight

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disconfirmed_expectancy

>One cannot exist without the other. I should state that theology does not require being the top dog or the top of society, it only needs room to follow its trajectory. Religion and politics have always had a relationship and the only difference is metaphysical claims.

At this stage it seems more like an analysis of ideology rather than an absolute religious truth.

Say you were a Chinaman during the early Song Dynasty (Mid 900AD). What would your knowledge of the poverty and techonological ignorance of Christians lead you to think of their religions truth?

>A hermit on a mountain with the absolute truth does the world a disfavour because he tells no one. Dissemination is spirituality.

Depends on the outcome and impact of that truth, likewise the God of Christianity would seem miserly when it comes to dissemination among non Jews + Europeans)

Side note here the question of dissemination is one of the more disappointing parts of east Orthodoxy.

>I have not. I really regret saying that but things are never easy over here. I apologize. Any particular issue that the user wished to confront, however?

Their arguments regarding Catholics being innovators whilst they have held tradition perfectly and that this is proof of their correctness.

Good thread.

Anyone else notice that Catholic priests really love to rape young boys?

I'm going to delete this post in a minute incase somebody is answering it. I think I should just read the book I posted (which around the very beginning describes where I am and how to move on).

You would think the Vatican would turn the child rapists over to authorities when they discover the massive epidemic of rape that has been happening in almost every Catholic church, but huh... For some reason they only protect the rapists and move them to other areas so they can rape more children.

Doesn't seem very Christian to me! Maybe I need their army of expert spin doctors to tell me why it's very complicated and we shouldn't use common sense when discussing Catholic child rape epidemic!

Good book, user.

>Wat do?

Go confess. You bargain with yourself, on good grounds - no doubt - but it is a bargain nonetheless. The self-examination and grace from confession is plainly good for you, m8, and the abstaining will be difficult at first but through overcoming it you have much to gain in your daily life.

As with the book you link, it is a failure and ultimately destructive to supporting a sin in act but still support it mentally - still long for it. This comes from the belief that people in sin are at peace with themselves, which doesn't hold to be the case at all. It is best to move away from what is bad for you in body and in mind and seek what is good for you as a human being.

Now this does not mean that the task can be settled quickly or simply but it is a task you are always winning, given you are willing to fight.

>...how do you guys deal with the knowledge of how sinful you are?

We all struggle with irrational desires. Our fight as Catholics is to tame them rationally without repressing them and while still giving dignity to all things. Honestly, I found St. Therese of Liseux to have a good answer for the manner of entering a spiritual path towards growth. She was a young woman so her writing is pretty easy to pick up but don't let the simplicity fool you:

>“Miss no single opportunity of making some small sacrifice, here by a smiling look, there by a kindly word; always doing the smallest right and doing it all for love.”

Living by this is difficult, but remember that saints are not perfect. What makes saints great is not their grace or perfection but their willingness to repent and continue to try.

>It's just, where do I go for that comradery to encourage me into becoming saints?

Catholic Generals here and 16/2chan's /christian/, but if you want something in your everyday life then I'd recommend a lay Catholic order to give community.

Thanks bro. I'll go to confession ASAP. I feel resolved now.

I think I'll have to frequent double chan's /christian/ board. I honestly shouldn't come here given the prevalence of porn which is a stumbling block for me.

>Btw Appeal To Authority is a logical fallacy.

Which I was not doing. You need to grasp the distinction between an authority speaking authoritatively and its justification from appealing to an authority and leaving it at that

You seem plenty confused about what you disagree with.

>Luke 12:51

Please don't try to pull quotations out of their context to justify things they are not even speaking of. That is disingenuous.


>There is no such thing as "the masses" as you insultingly call the priesthood of believers.

en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/mass

Definition 3.1

Also to the priesthood comment, here is the Catholic view:


>1546 Christ, high priest and unique mediator, has made of the Church "a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."20 The whole community of believers is, as such, priestly. The faithful exercise their baptismal priesthood through their participation, each according to his own vocation, in Christ's mission as priest, prophet, and king. Through the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation the faithful are "consecrated to be . . . a holy priesthood."21 1547 The ministerial or hierarchical priesthood of bishops and priests, and the common priesthood of all the faithful participate, "each in its own proper way, in the one priesthood of Christ." While being "ordered one to another," they differ essentially.22 In what sense? While the common priesthood of the faithful is exercised by the unfolding of baptismal grace --a life of faith, hope, and charity, a life according to the Spirit--, the ministerial priesthood is at the service of the common priesthood. It is directed at the unfolding of the baptismal grace of all Christians. The ministerial priesthood is a means by which Christ unceasingly builds up and leads his Church. For this reason it is transmitted by its own sacrament, the sacrament of Holy Orders.

>grasp the distinction between an authority speaking authoritatively and its justification from appealing to an authority and leaving it at that

Why do you endorse child rapists? Do you realize that it causes lifelong trauma for the innocent victims? God will send the Pope and his army of Satanic blasphemers to Hell for all eternity. Praise God!

>You seem plenty confused about what you disagree with.

Only if you're retarded, which you clearly are, since you are willingly part the Satanic mind control program called Catholicism

>Please don't try to pull quotations out of their context to justify things they are not even speaking of. That is disingenuous.

Don't like the truth huh? Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, and his followers created many small churches tailored to their cities (maybe you would have noticed if you read the Bible) which means there was not supposed to be a central universal church. No wonder Jesus calls the Vatican the Whore of Babylon in Revelations!

Babylon tried to unify all mankind and build the Tower. The Catholic Church tries to enslave all mankind under the authority of the Pope. Peter even calls Rome "Babylon" in 1 Peter 5:13.

Ecumenism is a sin

>the Catholic view:
I don't listen to Satan when I want to learn about God.

Apologies for the delay

>God really does let us have free will
How much? To the point where we can potentially whipe our all possible Christians?

To put it in the opposite, does God give us just enough free will to choose him or too much that we can defy his plans. Since we are not God, our free will is very limited. Whatever we have is only just enough or else everything would collaspe.

I don't understand the implications of saying: we have freewill therefore different possibilities exist. What kinds is the question, how far can we stray from the pen before the leech tugs at our necks?

>Disconfirmed expectancy
I can admit that I could be in error but 2,000 years of history suggests it is unlikely. These American denominations are new kids on the block comparatively and the weight of history in on the side of the Church.

But yes, there is insight and they could be the correct pathway theoretically.

> it seems more like an analysis of ideology rather than an absolute religious truth.
It really is. It has limited uses but otherwise I would be totally lost.

On the 'imagine you as ancient chinese' bit, it seems like I would be in the wrong there according to Christian salvation, but God is just I cannot speculate on my possible fate it would be out of my hands.

> the God of Christianity would seem miserly when it comes to dissemination among non Jews + Europeans
It would seem so but I feel like I am arguing a theological issue here about salvation and not whether the Catholic Church gets its authority from history.

>I've been having a lot of dark thoughts lately and this helps bring light into my life.

I'm totally with you user
I honestly think this thread is a sign
Over the past few weeks I've just had these feelings of immense sadness and emptiness.
I haven't wanted to socialise with my friends, hang out with my gf or go to work/do anything productive.
All day and night I've thought about killing myself

And this thread has made me realise that for the last 3 months I've been drifting away from the lord by not going to church, or praying, or living in a way without sin

Brothers, I ask you to pray for me to walk on the path once more

>I honestly think this thread is a sign


Its not like there is a thread on Sup Forums like this every single day

I pray that you will escape the Whore of Babylon and find the liberty of the true Gospel!

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Amen. I've personally never seen a Catholic general thread before but I've been given the sign. I will pray with you.

Ignore this heathen, Europe is finished and your little weed bars won't save you when the real fire rises and hits you dead square in that face of yours.

"If there is a God, Cardinal Richelieu has a lot to answer for. If there be none, he certainly has had a successful career." - Pope Urban VIII

I will pray for you m8. Prayin right now.

Hahaha, well that's a big topic in itself, I was expecting something more specific.

Well there are a few major places in which Orthodox would claim innovation. This would be the filioque, papal infallibility, the real presence, and essence + energies v. divine simplicity. This is not everything but this is the most common stuff.

However, funny enough, for pretty much all of that except the papal infallibility the two churches are pretty much together in how they view these things. Papal infallibility is the conclusion of the Catholic position on the primacy of St. Peter, which Orthodox simply disagree on, and so this really isn't a case of innovation there either. Theologically, what I continue to see if not so much a disagreement but a lack of interest in Orthodox churches in agreeing to state Christian doctrine with as much thorough detail as Catholics. Many will say this is due to just the Orthodox Church being obstinate but I won't try to assume of them.

Lets begin with essence/energies v. divine simplicity.
There is evidence for divine simplicity in the church fathers:

>"For God is simple and non-composite and without shape" - St. John Crysostom

Again from St. John,

>"[Paul] knows [God] in part. But he says, ‘in part,’ not because he knows God’s essence while something else of his essence he does not know; for God is simple. Rather, he says ‘in part’ because he knows that God exists, but what God is in his essence he does not know" -St. John Crysostom

>"Far removed is the Father of all from those things which operate among men, the affections and passions. He is simple, not composed of parts, without structure, altogether like and equal to himself alone. He is all mind, all spirit, all thought, all intelligence, all reason . . . all light, all fountain of every good, and this is the manner in which the religious and the pious are accustomed to speak of God" -St. Iraneaus, Against Heresies 2:13:3

part 1/2

part 2/2

>"But there is neither nor ever shall be such a dogma in the Church of God that would prove the simple and incomposite [God] to be not only manifold and variegated, but even constructed from opposites. The simplicity of the dogmas of the truth proposes God as he is" -St. Gregory of Nyssa, Against Eunomius 1:1:222

>“We perceive the operation of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to be one and the same, in no respect showing differences or variation; from this identity of operation we necessarily infer the unity of nature.” -St. Basil, Letters

The strength of the latter quote being the comment of essence. If we were to weigh Palamas' interpretation of God against this view the argument of St. Basil would fall to plurality of essence and lead to the same "polytheism" criticism it is known to get.

Despite all of this, though, the essence/energies distinction is also present in the church fathers. The issue that causes the conflict is grasping the distinctions between the two, to which there is almost nothing and the situation largely arises from the difference in terms that developed over time between the west and east. The Orthodox would state that God's essence is distinct from reality and that what is present sustaining reality are "energies" of God but the distinction is not an ontological one and God is still one. The Catholic view is that God is simplistic and so is synonymous with His essence but his essence cannot be apprehended by those in nature and so still remains transcendent.

I would go so far as to say that this is more a semantic issue than anything. I'll tackle the other topics next.

NEW POPE WHEN!?!?!


POPE FRANCIS IS KILLING CATHOLICISM

>like this every single day

I haven't seen one in a very long time
Perhaps it has just been drowned out by the shills
Care to explain
Or just shitposting?
Thank you, let me know if you'd like me to keep you in my prayers and thoughts this week and at mass
Thank you brother. Keep the faith, I pray that you never stray like I have.

Salve Regina

This is fascinating, but should I be Catholic or Orthodox?
Being intellectual all the time takes its toll.
Give me a hint and I can work backwards from there.

Why bother ? as a former atheist i always tried to convert atheist but the real cancer is in christianity it self , and a lot with the deus vult meme wont be saved , if god gives them delusions why should we bother to save cathocucks?

2 Thessalonians 2
> 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The proper focus should always be on authority. Focus on the proper claim to authority and you will find answers from there. If you really wish to work backwards, I'll give you one hint:

>starts with a C

...

...

...

This has been my reasoning also.

While I have your attention:
The whole Vatican II and Antipope situation. These are temporary problems, yes? They will get worked out soon? Can you make me feel better by outlining how? I can just be faithful instead. But these elements concern me.

>Jesus was never 'humiliated'.
The miracle is that Orthodoxy still survives in its intact state. Something special here.

...

>The miracle is that Orthodoxy still survives in its intact state. Something special here.

If something is already corrupted the devil does not have to attack it any further

For the filioque, it is entirely accurate to note that the filioque was not introduced with the original Nicene Creed in the First Council of Constantinople. Further, it is also accurate to state that in the Council of Ephesus that it was ruled to not create new creeds. This was not a doctrinal ruling but one about church practices, which are often overturned for newer rulings on church practices in later councils. This overruling occurred in the Council of Florence. And, hell, additions that Orthodoxy accepts came about at the Council of Nicea as well.

However, while it is not against church teaching to change the creed itself, the key charge is that the filioque is theological innovation.

The Western Church commonly uses a version of the Nicene creed which has the Latin word filioque ("and the Son") added after the declaration that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. Scripture reveals that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. The external relationships of the persons of the Trinity mirror their internal relationships. Just as the Father externally sent the Son into the world in time, the Son internally proceeds from the Father in the Trinity. Just as the Spirit is externally sent into the world by the Son as well as the Father (John 15:26, Acts 2:33), he internally proceeds from both Father and Son in the Trinity. This is why the Spirit is referred to as the Spirit of the Son (Gal. 4:6) and not just the Spirit of the Father (Matt. 10:20).

The quotations below show that the early Church Fathers, both Latin and Greek, recognized the same thing, saying that the Spirit proceeds "from the Father and the Son" or "from the Father through the Son."

"Through" the son is the more accurate claim of Catholics theologically and one that is ultimately aligned with the Orthodox ruling as well.

Forgive me but it's late and I think I'll hold off on the real presence and papal infallibility until another time.

>If something is already corrupted the devil does not have to attack it any further
You're going to have to elaborate on this claim.

stop splitting the generals

get in here

>Why do you endorse child rapists? Do you realize that it causes lifelong trauma for the innocent victims? God will send the Pope and his army of Satanic blasphemers to Hell for all eternity. Praise God!


The Catholic Church has less child rapists than Protestant denominations and public schools. They get attention because people in it tried to hide a massive scandal and it, rightly, blew up in their faces.

I do not endorse child rapists, nor do I endorse priests. I endorse God and His church.

>Don't like the truth huh? Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, and his followers created many small churches tailored to their cities (maybe you would have noticed if you read the Bible) which means there was not supposed to be a central universal church. No wonder Jesus calls the Vatican the Whore of Babylon in Revelations!


If there was not to be a central, universal church then it would be unwise to promote Apostolic Authority like Jesus did or give us the task of uniting all things in the Body of Christ. But Jesus is wise and did do those things, so maybe the only fault here is you and your satisfaction with disunity.

>ecumenism

Ecumenism deals with unity between denominations, not within churches in a single denomination.

But surely you are continuing to be obstinate and it's late so I'll just giveyou the last word.

One last question: How come Islam is incorrect?

OK I'm out. Thanks for the replies. Will check back later to read the remainder.

Godspeed.

Honestly, I'm not sure the best means of addressing traditionalists on Vatican 2 besides sorting out every single issue in front of them. Vatican 2 is largely focused around disciplinary changes - mainly over the church coming to understand that 'Christendom' is no longer a thing. The Catholic Church as pilgrim in the world is a major theme of these changes which influences it heavily. People unhappy with these disciplinary changes are within reason but they take it too far to claim the illegitimacy of the papacy post-V2 or antipope nonsense. From my knowledge, traditionalists tend to be loyal Catholics who are extremely suspicious of the post-V2 church so will get wrapped around with thinking the worst and assuming conspiracies needlessly.

So yes, big problems but also temporary problems.

>How much? To the point where we can potentially whipe our all possible Christians?

Yes, Take a look at the various times the Jews were almost annihilated in ancient history.

>To put it in the opposite, does God give us just enough free will to choose him or too much that we can defy his plans. Since we are not God, our free will is very limited. Whatever we have is only just enough or else everything would collaspe.

Remember he gives us enough free will for us to be dammed and tortured in the worst possible way for all eternity. The collapse of the world is not something he would automatically prevent.

>I don't understand the implications of saying: we have freewill therefore different possibilities exist.

My point is that we have free will therefore worldy success and strength is not proof of God's approval.

>I can admit that I could be in error but 2,000 years of history suggests it is unlikely. These American denominations are new kids on the block comparatively and the weight of history in on the side of the Church.

I think you missed the point here: namley that they show what the veil of time obscures - the impact of document control.

Not one of the documents that dams these two faiths were preserved and produced by these groups but instead by external ones. Remember our previous discussion on this.

Likewise that link demonstrates how the failure of prophecies does not kill religious movements and can even strengthen them.

>But yes, there is insight and they could be the correct pathway theoretically.

My point here is that it is illogical and unreasonable to hold age as the metric of truth and orthodoxy.

>It really is. It has limited uses but otherwise I would be totally lost.

Well think of the weaknesses of ideological lenses and apply them here.

II'm out.
Goodnight, Anons.

>On the 'imagine you as ancient chinese' bit, it seems like I would be in the wrong there according to Christian salvation, but God is just I cannot speculate on my possible fate it would be out of my hands.

You are begging the question here and working backwards "God is Just" therefore the God that best fits my understanding of the Just must be the correct one with outwardly or by mystery.

>It would seem so but I feel like I am arguing a theological issue here about salvation and not whether the Catholic Church gets its authority from history.

These points are intertwined though as you base the CC legitimacy on this matter on its history. Hence why we arent discussing prots and the like.

Thanks, dont forget to save this stuff for others as well.

>One last question: How come Islam is incorrect?

For that you need to read the quran it has some major errors like the trinity is the father the son and mary , jesus is actualy god because he can create in the quran

Because its not taught by the Catholic Church?

>said there would be quotations below
>no quotations
>already left for bed

Fuck. Filioque support.


Tertullian
"I believe that the Spirit proceeds not otherwise than from the Father through the Son" (Against Praxeas 4:1 [A.D. 216]).
Origen
"We believe, however, that there are three persons: the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and we believe none to be unbegotten except the Father. We admit, as more pious and true, that all things were produced through the Word, and that the Holy Spirit is the most excellent and the first in order of all that was produced by the Father through Christ" (Commentaries on John 2:6 [A.D. 229]).
Maximus the Confessor
"By nature the Holy Spirit in his being takes substantially his origin from the Father through the Son who is begotten (Questions to Thalassium 63 [A.D. 254]).
Gregory the Wonderworker
"one Holy Spirit, having substance from God, and who is manifested through the Son; image of the Son, perfect of the perfect; life, the cause of living; holy fountain; sanctity, the dispenser of sanctification; in whom is manifested God the Father who is above all and in all, and God the Son who is through all. Perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty neither divided nor estranged" (Confession of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Didymus the Blind
"As we have understood discussions . . . about the incorporeal natures, so too it is now to be recognized that the Holy Spirit receives from the Son that which he was of his own nature. . . . So too the Son is said to receive from the Father the very things by which he subsists. For neither has the Son anything else except those things given him by the Father, nor has the Holy Spirit any other substance than that given him by the Son" (The Holy Spirit 37 [A.D. 362]).

Basil The Great
"Through the Son, who is one, he [the Holy Spirit] is joined to the Father, one who is one, and by himself completes the Blessed Trinity" (The Holy Spirit 18:45 [A.D. 375]).

Now I'm out.

Every Pope has been a faggot

Every priest is deluded and dangerous

Every distortion of God's perfect Word will cause the guilty to be destroyed in Hell.

Praise God for His Word that we can all read freely without Roman Pagan idolators telling us to confess sins to Mary or other blasphemy!

Probably a stupid question but how does one go about getting back into the church?

I've been feeling what I can only describe as a call to go back to mass and start practicing again. I'm 30 years old, have a comfortable life, in a stable relationship for nearly a decade but I'm still not feeling happy with life.

I never described myself as an atheist or agnostic, just a Catholic that didn't practice his religion. Haven't been to mass since in about 15 years and haven't been to confession since I made my first one. I'm not happy and content in life like I feel I should be, and I've been feeling like maybe I should try get back into religion but I'm not sure if that is a genuine desire or if I am grasping at straws.

Whats the best way to go about it?

Vatican II was stated to be a pastoral council that proclaimed no dogmas. A lot of people after the council want to turn it into a dogmatic council that traditionalists "must accept" before they are allowed any place to speak or work. But it's just not what the Council was about.

I think Dignitatis Humanae will have to be condemned in some form in the future. I'm sure the theologians will find a way, like they did with Haec Sancta.

The main issue is their core values and the moral character of their false prophet. They place too little value on truth and moral behavior and the end result is obvious. You don't even need to waste your time on their theology to see that.

Catholics are worse than Muslims

Have you been baptised and confirmed?
If so that will make things much easier. Regardless either go to mass and catch up with a priest afterwards or call ahead and explain your situation, as long as you dont take the communion wafer and wine you'll be set.

>I'm not happy and content in life like I feel I should be, and I've been feeling like maybe I should try get back into religion but I'm not sure if that is a genuine desire or if I am grasping at straws.

Whilst Im not telling you to not go just be aware that kind of feeling can come from many factors and that just because something addresses those in part or whole doesnt mean its true - this is particularly relevant when it comes to new age and protestant movements.

>Have you been baptised and confirmed?

Yeah I was born and raised in a Catholic family. I just fell out with religion when I was in my late teens because of bad influences in my life at the time. However I never became an atheist and always have felt like there is something greater than ourselves influencing our world.

So there is no formalities really with picking your faith back up? Even for some who has lapsed as long as I have? I can barely even remember the basic prayers anymore.

>this is particularly relevant when it comes to new age and protestant movements.

Even though I have been lapsed for a very long time. I have always identified as a Catholic culturally because of the environment I grew up in.

>So there is no formalities really with picking your faith back up? Even for some who has lapsed as long as I have? I can barely even remember the basic prayers anymore.

The only formal hurdle for you is confession which the priest or the internet can help you figure out, once you clear that up you will be able to to take the sacrament again.

As for the other stuff its just a matter of relearning it by being observant at mass and reading up on the internet/ YouTube videos.

Itll be tad awkward for awhile but youll pick it up over time, Catholicism doesnt place a lot of burdens on its parishoners during mass.

If you're a baptized catholic, you'll want to do an examination of conscience and go to confession before receiving communion again. But other than that nothing is really required, although you might want to look into an RCIA (rite of Christian initiation of adults) program to learn more about the faith.

Bump

Bump again

Bump for pedophile network masquerading as church