This is the greatest thing North America built before the arrival of europeans

This is the greatest thing North America built before the arrival of europeans

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teotihuacan
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chichen_Itza
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerica
google.com/maps/place/Tienda El Maguey/@38.6581992,-90.0568272,17.19z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x7bfd291e14313fb6!8m2!3d38.658255!4d-90.051658?hl=en
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Yep

kinda cool to be honest

I guess they were a group to be admired for their ability to build straw huts atop small, man-made hills

They built the mounds. Cahokia was the greatest thing north of the Rio Grande prior to the arrival of Europeans.

Glad we changed all that nonsense.

Shit if we had left them alone, in another thousand years they may have progressed as far as pic related.

actually it was/is pic related.

the aztecs actually discovered the city as ruins...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teotihuacan

also chichen itza
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chichen_Itza

>north

>American education

Thanks dad.

Generally Central America is called Mesoamerica for the sake of separating the natives into different camps. There was possibly trade between the two.

since when is Mexico not North America?

>This is the greatest thing built in Northern Europe before the arrival of Mediterraneans

It is. When talking about natives, you split it though so that you don't confuse those that were found in the US with those found in Mexico and Central America.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerica

You give them another millennia or so and it could have been something just as amazing as western civilization. It's just like a headstart. While indians were still crossing the bering strait, the beginnings of civilization were already happening in the middle east
>no metal working
They worked gold and silver, they hadn't quite got to the point of using it as weapons. They even started working with iron shortly before europeans showed up
>muh barbaric sacrifices
Mesopotamia had plenty of savage shit going on too
>pic related: fucking amazing incan stoneworking

Also they figured out the advantages of star forts while euros were still fucking around with circles and squares

WRONG

>Christian church
>Before Mediterranean influence
???

North America was the hardest hit by the younger dryas comet impact.

They lived in villages, like pic related.
Pretty comfy.

More like this desu senpai!

>stave architecture popped up out of no where

Stave architecture was a mixture of indigenous Nordic temple building and Christian church building, which is why it looks different to mainland European churches.

Where do they shit

I probably couldn't build that.

Humans only started reaching the Americas about 13,000 years ago, despite modern humans being 50,000 years old. More to the point, I doubt that the humans who were living in the Russia-Alaska area had much contact with other humans anyway, and they certainly wouldn't have had any use for farming in their home region of frozen tundra and ice flows.

Think about it instead this way. Humans were living in and around the Middle East starting around 30,000 BC, but didn't develop agriculture until 13,000 BC - so for 17,000 years they sat in a region where agriculture was more than possible but can't be definitively shown to have done any agriculture in the area.

Humans entering the Americas (who, again, were for all intents and purposes completely isolated from any other humans and with no way to have any knowledge of agriculture going in), meanwhile, needed to schlepp through the tundra and taiga of Alaska and northern Canada, and then down into the rest of Americas. Then they started up agriculture between 8,000 (Mesoamerica) to 12,000 (South America, go go potato) years ago.

So the early Americans figured out in 1,000-5,000 years what it took the early Middle Easterners about 17,000 years to do so, and they managed to do it completely independently of the Middle East.

Or another way of looking at it: Humans in the Middle East started agriculture in 13,000 BC, humans in the Americas in 10,000 BC or so. So the Middle East had a 3,000 year head start.

Compare what North America looked like in 1491 AD to what Europe or sub-Saharan Africa looked like in 2500 BC, ~3,000 years earlier. They're roughly comparable, just as the civilizations of the Andes and Mesoamerica are roughly comparable to Egypt and Mesopotamia in 2500 BC.

They didn't start at the same time; why do you expect them to have advanced as far?

And what's your excuse for Africa?

>implying ancient South America wasn't built by white people from Atlantis

injuns are just savages m8

>a mixture of indigenous Nordic temple building and Christian church building

i.e., it has major Mediterranean influences.

Show me what the Nords were building before ANY meaningful Mediterranean contact.

The level of human sacrifice in central and southern america was way higher than Mesopotamia.

Bullshit. Natives did not build star forts. Cahokia's walls had little archer bastions, but they were all circles and squares.

I'd say the giant fucking piles of shells that are still readily visible on St. Marco Island in Florida that the Calusa Indians left behind. They built everything out of this shit and basically doubled the size of the island with food waste.

I could probably wax on about it if I wanted to, but this thread is about the Americas. I want to stick with that, if you please.

Feel free to pop over to /his/ and start up a thread about African civilizations, though, and I might show up there. Maybe. I'm a bit busy at the moment, I just wanted to point out the innate stupidity of expecting a people who started 3,000 years behind Eurasians to keep up with them.

I mean, if you have a 100-meter dash, and start one runner at the 0-meter line, but then start another runner at the -300 meter line, even if that other runner is Usaine Bolt, he's probably not gonna win.

>The level of human sacrifice in central and southern america was way higher than Mesopotamia.
Sure, but it's still savage shit. You can't be surprised when savages are savage
>Bullshit. Natives did not build star forts. Cahokia's walls had little archer bastions, but they were all circles and squares.
Why don't you look at the picture I attached? Do you think they built random protrusions for no reason? It was so that they could attack people attacking their walls from a location not directly overhead

>feel free to pop over to /his/

No thanks I'm not a faggot

Pic related. It's not a full blown star fort. It's a series of zig zags to form half-assed bastions. Looks kind of like the way the greeks would build walls if they didn't build a bastion.

>The level of human sacrifice in central and southern america was way higher than Mesopotamia.

The numbers that Moctezuma II gave to Cortés are generally believed to have been erroneous, inflated in order to impress a guy who he, after all, thought was his god. "Oh, we sacrifice thousands! TENS OF THOUSANDS EVERY YEAR, GREAT QUETZALCOATL!" In reality it was probably no more than a few hundred at most, simply because Mesoamerica didn't have the population to sustain an annual human sacrifice of tens of thousands of people.

Even if they're spot-on, though, that only means that they're winning the race; they still have plenty of competition. The early Israelites certainly practied it. The Ammonites sacrificed children to Moloch; the people of Phoenicia and Carthage were also fond of child sacrifice to Baal-hammon and other deities.

Then there's the Ver Sacrum, an old Italic (especially Sabine and Samnite) rite in which everything born on a certain spring, including children, would be sacrificed to Mars. This was usually done in times of calamity or danger.

> I'm a bit busy at the moment, I just wanted to point out the innate stupidity of expecting a people who started 3,000 years behind Eurasians to keep up with them

This^

When writing in Mesopotamia was being used to keep track of grain sales, nomads were crossing the Bering Straights. While the Egyptians were building the Great Pyramid, there were still Mammoths in North America. When Oxford was established, the Aztec empire hadn't begun yet. Civilizations did not have a uniform starting point.

Heres the pic

A scathing rebuttal, sir.

They killed all of the major animal species that would have been useful for creating civilization.

Such a noble and pure culture.

Spics are natural born savages. Their art shows their inner vision of beauty. Turns out it's skinned bodies and decapitated heads.

Heads Shall Roll.
Looks comfy enough

Most of the draft animals were already extinct, camels and horses and such.

I thought Northern European pagans were the master race and that Mediterranean Christians are non white shitskins though...

I don't think I'm going to convince you of anything. But don't you think mimicking Greek defensive tactics, the highly regarded pinnacle of ancient society, is worth something on it's own? Why do you say that like it's a bad thing?

t. buffalo nigger

Mexico was pretty based back in the day

In each other's mouths and on their penis's

That's not true at all. Buffalo were still around in the tens of millions; given time they probably could have been domesticated in the same way that aurochs were eventually turned into modern cows. Llamas WERE domesticated by the Andean civilizations. Turkeys were cultivated like chickens.

And of course, Man's Best Friend made the trip across the Bering Straight alongside the early Americans. Native Americans used dogs for everything that their Eurasian counterparts did, including herding (Peruvian shephard dog), hunting (Tahitan bear dog), lap dogs (chihuahuas), retrieving (Innu canoe hunting dogs), sledding (Alaskan Malamute).

Some native peoples were even subhuman enough to eat dogs: the Cheyenne, Dakota, Lakota, Mexica, and Kickapoo.

...

...no, seriously, eating a dog is a subhuman act, excusable only in times of desperate starvation. In any other circumstance I consider it to be, for all intents and purposes, cannibalism.

Fuck the Chinese. Fuck the Swiss, too, for that matter. Yeah, the Swiss eat dogs, bet you didn't know that. Fuck the Swiss.

I can actually smell the fedora on you

It's not a fucking star fort. It's some zig zags to get a better perspective. You can't even explain what constitutes a star fort or a bastion. The greek walls i'm thinking of were only built when they didn't have enough room to build a real bastion.

I live 10 minutes from this.

T- Edwardsvillian.

>[The Aztecs were] a culture obsessed with death: they believed that human sacrifice was the highest form of karmic healing. When the Great Pyramid of Tenochtitlan was consecrated in 1487 the Aztecs recorded that 84,000 people were slaughtered in four days. Self-sacrifice was common and individuals would pierce their ears, tongues and genitals to nourish the floors of temples with their blood. Unsurprisingly, there is evidence that Mexico was already suffering from a demographic crisis before the Spanish arrived.”

Colonalism was terrible! How dare those bigoted bible thumpers overthrow such a noble, loving, peaceful, earth-friendly culture?

I live like 20 minutes from it, it's actually pretty nice, has a great Mexican restaurant down the road. It actually had several thousand inhabitants at one time.

Actually I'm of Irish extraction; that is to say, my parents didn't even get off the boat (plane, whatever) until 1986. I was born in 1987 in Massachusetts. My family tree is Irish back hundreds of years.

I'm just what some folk like to call "educated and informed without a priori bias to prove a point".

I tell it like it is or was, not like how I want it to be or wish it could have been.

>but can't be definitively shown to have done any agriculture in the area

There were harvest tools, but no planting tools. The climate allowed for natural fields of crop land. The first planting tools appeared in India.

What a charming and beautiful native culture. I can't wait until we return to this more earth-friendly way of life.

Tienda El Ranchito?

>pic related: fucking amazing incan stoneworking
THE INCANS THEMSELVES SAID THEY DIDNT BUILD SACSAYHUAMAN

No, they died out as they expanded.

They killed most of the useful animals and then moved into jungles.

No, the Aztecs were, objectively, a terrible group of people and I'm glad they're gone from the Earth.

However, the Spanish were not "the good guys", not even by comparison; or as I personally like to say, the lesser of two evils is still, by definition, evil.

In the Spanish conquest of Mexico, there were no good guys or bad guys, just a lot of horrible people doing horrible things to each other.

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chichen_Itza
chicken pizza?

>Europe had a head start

but that's bull shit, nobody made a line and said start here

You guys want to know the best part? Straight across the highway from it is the biggest trash dump in the region. Literally 7 times bigger than Monks Mound. Really makes you think.

Yeah yeah you're the ubermensch. Why did I even bother. By the way
>figured out the advantages of star forts
I never fucking said they built full fledged star forts

>Tienda El Ranchito?

I'm not sure, it's LITERALLY right down the road from Cahokia, like 2 minute drive into the town that's next to it. It's been a while since I've been there.

did you realize it was a buried pyramid

WE

carasillos is the best restaurant in the area

WUZ

and yes it is a burial mound.

are we ignoring Tenochtitlan because Mexico is still more or less in North America.

Even if it isn't the Anasazi have some pretty awesome stuff around the southwest.

Here I found it on google maps

google.com/maps/place/Tienda El Maguey/@38.6581992,-90.0568272,17.19z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x7bfd291e14313fb6!8m2!3d38.658255!4d-90.051658?hl=en

Didn't know there were so many Southern Illinois fags here, I just had dinner at the Tajj yesterday in Edwardsville

>They killed most of the useful animals and then moved into jungles.

No, they didn't. The last native equine went extinct in North America more than 12,000 years ago and had been on the decline for millennia already. Humans at the worst only completed a process that was already long underway.

Second point,

>moved into the jungles

Objectively wrong. Human cultures flourished all across North and South America; you had people living in all the biomes. The Andean civilizations, who were technologically the most advanced, most certainly did not live in jungles, they lived in rugged, mountainous region that looks more like a warmer version of Scotland than anything.

Got a lot of favorites down on Cahokia in South City.,,,depending on the day, haha

Cherokee, not Cahokia...stupid typo

You said,
>Also they figured out the advantages of star forts while euros were still fucking around with circles and squares

Which is totally fucking wrong. Their zig zag shit is not even a bastion. It's not capable of the level of fire output of a bastion. You're a stupid cunt.

There are a lot of us. I used to eat at La Fonda a lot but it has went downhill in my opinion. I really like to hit up the Fairmount City mexican places..some are in a store looking setting but the food is always amazing. It's a mexican community most St.Louisans don't know exist.

WUZ KANGS OF AMERICA N SHEEEIT

The area it's guarding is also not capable of being attacked to the same extent of the area a bastion defends

How is their Indian food? I have a few indian friends that own a certain liquor store but they won't ever show me the dank Indian food.

Yes, someone did. OP did, when he made his post with the implication that the North Americans were somehow lacking when compared to their European counterparts.

The Americans managed to develop what they did in total, incontestable isolation from the rest of the world; Europe (and elsewhere) got to benefit from a gradual wave of agriculture spreading outward from the Middle East and the attendant trade and exchange of ideas and information.

>tfw you know where this came from and you know it's a commie that doesn't want to make america safe again.

Benjamin Franklin:
"When an Indian Child has been brought up among us, taught our language, and habituated to our Customs, yet if he goes to see his relations and makes one Indian Ramble with them, there is no perswading him ever to return. But when white persons of either sex have been taken prisoner young by the Indians, and lived a while with them, tho' ransomed by their Friends, and treated with all imaginable tenderness to prevail with them to stay among the English, yet in a Short time they become disgusted with our manner of life, and the care and pains that are necessary to support it, and take the first good Opportunity of escaping again into the Woods, from whence there is no reclaiming them."

There was much to like about tribal life. The men had no jobs except to occasionally hunt some buffalo and if they felt courageous to go to war. The women did have jobs like cooking and preparing buffalo, but they still seemed to be getting off easy compared to the white pioneer women or, for that matter, women today. The whole culture was nomadic, basically riding horses wherever they wanted through the vast open plains without any property or buildings or walls. And everyone was amazingly good at what they did; the Comanche men were probably the best archers and horsemen in the history of history, and even women and children had wilderness survival and tracking skills that put even the best white frontiersmen to shame. It sounds like a life of leisure, strong traditions, excellence, and enjoyment of nature, and it doesn't surprise me that people liked it better than the awful white frontier life of backbreaking farming and endless religious sermons.

These excrepts are to show that there are other possible values in life, aside from leaving impressive ruins behind as your race is destroyed.

Of course Comanche didn't build this crap, but the point stands.

Sexyhuman was an inside joke in our Spanish class ayy the nostalgia

>minecraft hill

Was it autism?

My issue with this claim is that it's the easiest thing in the world to either prove or disprove.

Grab a shovel and start digging, you lazy fucks. Either you'll find a pyramid and be vindicated, or find nothing and realize you only ever had delusions of grandeur.

Seriously, if you really believe this, then there is no excuse to not try and prove it. With a shovel.

Surely Bosnia has shovels.

There's nothing like the stave architecture in the Mediterranean. The stave churches are the only ones to survive because they were churches and therefore holy enough to be preserved. We began making more normal stone churches later when the influence from the South increased.

I went there once and it was boooooring

I like El Mezcal since it's convenient and right down the road from where I live, I don't go to St. Louis much to be honest, unless it's to check out a midnight movie at the Tivoli Theatre, which plays old movies on the weekends sometimes.

It's pretty good, I'm a sucker for their Chicken Tikka Masala, but it's a expensive, but the naan bread is tight.

lel

We were living as one with nature before the Mediterraneans came.

They were hardly negroid savages. They're descendants of East Asians who actually had civilization.

And I still bet they had more culture than you pasty fucks

El Mezcal is legit for sure.

So you can't even show me an artist's interpretation, then.

Yeah, I'm officially and unilaterally gonna call you "full of shit".

Either show me some pre-meaningful Mediterranean contact buildings, or admit defeat. Specifically I want to see what the Nords were building around 2500 BC, but really anything from 1 AD or before will do. And it can even be an artist's interpretation if you like, just as long as it's something roughly to the quality of the thing in OP (i.e., not some hillman's bad weaving or cave art or something)

It's good they're gone. This is even dumber than early Pharoahs and Sumerian King's being buried with their court.

Mass human sacrifice was very common in early civilization through. Bretty bizarre. Chinks did it too.

I know that feel

Cliff dwellers were wiped out by the plains Indians
Basically mongol hordes of North America
This is why we can't have nice things

>it is a burial mound.
my quads and picture destroy that theory