Traditionally, priot to the sexual revolution of the 1960's, women often saved themselves for marriage.
Today this is not the case. Women have more and more partners at younger and younger ages, to the point where once they get married their husbands are "just another man" in their life, making it just another relationship, increasing the chances of breakup and divorce.
Some argue this has always been the case. In pic related, its shown that humans would basically have orgies all the time, similar to Bonobos, because it helped the tribe bond more.
Other genealogical studies have shown that in early humans and even modern humans, that a relatively small portion of men were successful in reproducing. This means that females were often in harems
Yet traditional religious culture dictates that men and women should be monogamous, and this is both natural and ideal
So which is it Sup Forums? In the search for truth, and understanding of the true role of women in society and politics, what is the true human sexuality?
Are men and women inclined to be orgies (sharing women), are they meant to be polyamorous and engaging in harems, or are they inclined to practice monogamy?
Remind me again, which culture invented the modern world and which one lived in caves and mudhuts?
Ethan Bell
were talking prehistoric here
the key is by understanding the motivations behind the subconscious we can make better conscious decisions, particularly when it comes to women and relationships. the only way to know that is by studying the mating patterns of all people, who at one point all lived in mud huts
Joshua Brooks
It's generally speaking a loosely organized system where an alpha male ( think actor, CEO, etc ) has a wife and then flings on the side. After that, people in beta positions typically just pair off.
You CAN have a "natural" system where say a small group of men have exclusive access to all the women. The result will be spikes in crime from sexually frustrated men who feel like they have a lack of options. You also CAN live outside without heat or electricity if you want the all natural experience. Not all changes to human lifestyles have been negative. Part of being a self-aware animal means re-engineering or organizing ourselves.
Evan Perez
Yes, sex is a bonding mechanism. You approximately can't separate sex and its emotional impact.
However, if you make that argument now that we have the pill, you're messing with dangerous rituals by using the incentive but without the actual process of childbirth and tribal setting.
Alexander Anderson
What I'm getting at is this;
Men will often cheat because they are naturally inclined to have sex with a lot of women
Women will cheat not because they're inclined to have sex with lots of men, but they will have flings with genetically superior men
So what im asking is how much of a role does evolution have here? it seems to be quite high, basically 80% of our decisions
David Rivera
You can't really use prehistoric humans to justify behavior within the context of a civilization.
civilization is not a natural thing.
We developed civilization and family groups and the distributions of people among those family groups(father, mother etc)and what duties/obligations are expected of them(morality).
Nicholas Brown
The truth is that a subjugation of the feminine sexual imperative is what allows society to grow. Yes, in early humans, we were all fucking around like bonobos and the entire tribe bonded over fucking.
But then we learned how to subjugate women, apportion them to meet the men's sexual demand, and control them to stabilize society. That is the foundation of property, and by extension the foundation of civilization.
Gavin Morgan
>bonobos
Jack Donovan paints a disturbing picture regarding this in Way of Men
Henry Reed
but women are very subjugated in Pakistan yet Islamic society has largely stopped growing
Leo Price
Monogamy is the foundation of civilization. If men are guaranteed one wife they all have equal stake in seeing their society flourish, and they aren't driven to infighting over the women.
Evan Richardson
The human subconscious is rooted in the past, in past human social structures, and in primitive, neanderthal-like tribal patterns. It enjoys violence, and it is not monogamous; there is a darwinian core to it, which dictates that ~10% of males in a large social tribe have sex with most females.
The human conscious mind is rooted in structure, social order, civilization, and sequential events and their relationship to each other (i.e. past and future). It likes civilization, its problems are intrinsic to fitting into a social order and creating in this civilization and solving this civilizations' problems. It does not have the survival issues that were the creator of the human innate, primal, unconscious/subconscious, and it cares for other beings and people. The current ( ~25,000 yr ) social order it belongs to dictates ( through false, artificial social experiences, I might add ) some idea of "1 man, 1 woman". The human conscious will tend, when presented with an idea in a repetitive manner, with emotion, to believe in it very strongly; if the idea is repeated again and again (say, in every movie or in ~70% of movies you've ever watched, for example), it will tend to discard all possibility of this idea being "wrong" or "false".
tl;dr. The 90% of peoples' brains want lots of high-quality people to have sex with. The ~10% (or whatever it is in truth) will want 1 marriage and a sequence of events in physical reality that align with its expectations ( engagement > strong emotions > marriage > heavy emotions > kids > stressful emotions > problems > "maybe I cheat" > divorce ). Anything else, in its perception of events, would be "wrong" or "weird" or "untrue" ( i.e. most males living today, will never actually say "I should have sex with ten thousand girls, I should have ten thousand babies!", despite what their genes or instincts tell them. This is morally right to them. )
I say this independent of any sort of preference - that I'm conscious of :)
Zachary King
This harem shit worked for hunter gatherer high mortality 30 years life expectancy no wealth accumulation societies. This means it worked for most of our history since civilization is very new. When civilization formed and people stopped dying en masse culture took over biology. When it became possible to accumulate money and property and transfer it through generations you needed as many men with a stake in society as possible. Each building up his small savings, home or serving in the army for the sake of future generations. You needed as many men as possible to invest themselves in maintaining your culture/civilization/state. This means you needed them to have offspring as this gives meaning to such endevours. Hence socially enforced monogamy. Until 1950s if you were a well socialized hard working man you were pretty much guaranteed to get a wife and familty via matchmaking. So a lot of men were hardworking and contributed. Now women chase a few alphas and a lot of men dont even see a point in adding to society. Its more natural but does not maintain civilization. Especially an advanced one.
Jaxson Carter
Monogamist societies were stronger because every male was entitled to have a woman and his own offspring, so every male had reasons to work, fight and die to protect that society. Monogamy = every male has skin in the game.
Feminism and promiscuity breaks down this type of society because men are not more entitled to a wife and kids. Most won't have any skin in the game. So we end up with a big portion of males not working, not engaged and not investing in the well-being of the tribe. This lesser social structure becomes ripe for the taking when in contact with other monogamist cultures that are more cohesive and have more males invested in it.
Bentley Hill
Man, I don't know what you're talking about. The average male has something like 6-8 sex partners in their entire life. You can take a look at basically any sex study you want. Even if you look at millennials, they're recorded as having relatively little sex compared to their predecessors .
The myth/meme that most of youth is just raves and clubs where you drown in pussy is just that for most guys. More often than not a night at the club is just you standing around awkwardly for a couple of hours, paying for overpriced drinks.
People are naturally serial monogamists. The idea that we're all just barely constraining ourselves from random fucking is absurd.
Ryan Collins
The only reason it started growing in the first place is because they learned a whole bunch of stuff from the Persians. They were able to maintain the technology, but not improve on it, as proved by the collapse of the Caliphate soon after the mongol invasions.
Andrew Myers
>Evolutionary psychology >not utter pseudoscientific bullshit pick one
Levi Nguyen
Men are meant to kill other, weaker men and take their women for their harems.
Jace Phillips
>You CAN have a "natural" system where say a small group of men have exclusive access to all the women
thats the case
Jeremiah Parker
The contention that natural human sexuality follows an animalistic pattern of mating - the "fuck everything I am attracted to" model, so to speak - is undeniable. Alongside finding: food; water; and shelter, sexual activity would be one of the most important components of the daily agenda.
The paradigm of human behaviour has shifted with the rise of modern cultural society. Yes, the natural sexual urges of humans remain as they were historically, but it is now clear that there may be societal imperative that this changes to a new model, for example, monogamy. This is even true from the atheistic perspective.
A couple of reasons are (though I invite you to suggest more):
- Through modern education we are now aware of sexually transmitted diseases. In order to preserve oneself and ones bloodline, one must be diligent in regards to choosing sexual partners. If sexual activities were to devolve to the prehistoric model, think how quickly everyone would be riddled with HIV, HPV, Hepatitis and a plethora of other diseases.
- The accepted societal standards in regards to childcare has now changed. I invite you to reason how this may change the mating patterns of modern humans.
Joseph Wilson
Heartiste review:
Chris Ryan has to ignore female hypergamous mate choice and male jealousy to concoct this vision of a peaceful hedonist paradise.
The reality would be considerably darker; women would still want to bang the alpha, leaving the beta male out in the cold, clawing and scratching for rode-worn scraps, but now shackled with the obligation to help provide for kids that are likely not his own. What then happens is a complete breakdown in male investment in women and families. Men spend their working hours battling it out in vast, unproductive “Who’s the Sexiest?” competitions for privileged access to a veritable harem of vaj. If you think this is a recipe for creating and sustaining an advanced modern society filled with creature comforts, I have a grass hut somewhere in the Congo to sell you.
A happy hippie free love egalitarian commune it would not be. Widespread polyamorous practice where childrearing is done by the village and all men, uncertain of paternity, contribute resources to the well-being of the single moms and their unholy bastard squirtage, will not convince women to equally distribute their sexual favors among the men. Just the opposite; it would liberate women to single-mindedly pursue the few alphas in their purview, knowing full well that a beta blood-latticed safety net exists to protect them from destitution. In other words, socially-sanctioned and state-supported polyamory lets women have their cake and eat it, too.
Colton Adams
kek
Landon Lewis
Society, though, flies in the face of evolution, though. The evolutionary process helped get us to a point where mankind was able to "master beast and burden"; to allow society (and eventually, civilization) to exist.
Civilization = Beta Cooperation (We have walls and security guards that keep the lions and shit from eating us after night time). We create laws and order that are meant to preserve the "family unit". We invent religions to bring order and morality to the immoral and disorderly.
Evolution = 80/20 rule, distribution of the resource called pussy. 80% of the guys out there will turn to avenues of societal cooperation (betas), or just go and do their own thing, refusing to play by the rules (omegas). 20% (alphas) reap the rewards of the genetic lottery and spread their seed, letting society watch after their progeny for them. Julian Marriage laws, though preserving Rome for a time longer, are anti-human nature. This is why they were mostly abandoned shortly after their enforcement - humans cannot comply with them.
This is a tough one that was kept in check (mostly) with religion. Now that religion is losing (or has lost) most of its influence on a majority of people (thank you, internet), we're seeing something now that one can only catch a glimpse of in history when observing the fall of one religion before the rise of the next: A cynically hedonistic generation of "me me me" who will be mercilessly conquered by religious (or at least ethno-related) savages (middle easterners) bent on bringing order to the chaos they view as the west.
But yes, women are biologically predestined to release themselves into someone much stronger, confident, focused, somewhat protective, and solid as a person; EVEN IF THAT PERSON INTENDS HARM TO HER CULTURE AND HER PEOPLE - and that's because women to not bare those concepts (culture and people) as valid.
Caleb Wilson
low test spotted
Kayden Ramirez
>Are men and women inclined to be orgies (sharing women) are they meant to be polyamorous and engaging in harems, or are they inclined to practice monogamy?
Females are fundamentally worth more than males in reproduction. This means women call the shots, and men adapt or their DNA dies with them. Female sexuality determines male sexuality, in general terms.
Female sexuality is "what have you done for me lately?" The eggs go to the best available man on the menu, but that man is not constant; it's one man at one time, another man later on, and so on.
So the natural human (and many other species) sexual order is chaos, where women vie to be fucked and impregnated by the "best" man possible, and men vie with each other to be that man. Obviously most women win in this scenario, and most men lose.
But is "natural" tantamount to "best for the species"? No. The natural chaotic order is one without cooperation and cohesion, without high investment parenting. High investment parenting is THE fundamental basis for a civilized society.
Ryan also has this idea that tribes that were unconcerned with paternity were more successful than tribes that were, but if that's the case...where are those tribes? And why do they still live in a world where they shit in the woods and might die just by stubbing a toe on a rock?
Julian Murphy
so our laxness has caused us to regress, basically
Colton Green
>Sex at Dawn Sex at Dusk completely took that crappy romanticized noble savage garbage book apart
Joshua Lewis
It's also notable that women will get knocked up by alphas, but since alphas don't stick around they are able to have society (ie beta males) pay for them
So they have their kids with a genetically superior male and have someone else pay for it
it's a win win for them
Gavin Walker
> This lesser social structure becomes ripe for the taking when in contact with other monogamist cultures that are more cohesive and have more males invested in it.
So we can expect even more men jumping ship to other cultures that give them a reason to invest in them? Expats and so on?
Ayden Moore
The point being, there are many factors we don't live in mud huts currently, and among those factors was the maturation of human sexual relationships. Bonded life mating was better for society.
Jackson Wilson
THAT'S CORRECT, I CALL IT A "360 WIN", I COINED THAT PHRASE, THAT WAS DECLASSIFIED.
Kevin Thompson
That's what happening with all the white people going to Thailand and getting wives
Aaron Ross
This book is entirely wrong, in case anyone is wondering. This is the author. The other author is her husband who is a psychologist. That should tell you all you need to know.
Easton Nguyen
"Society rises in wooden shoes and descends in silk slippers."
-paraphrased quote from guy whose name I don't remember.
What happened is that we advanced to the point that we have this heretofore unimaginable excess of resources and lack of predators. Those are the conditions which create a Matriarchy. Matriarchies collapse. They then are replaces with Patriarchies, if there's anyone left to give a fuck at that point.
Wyatt Stewart
>friend had blonde, big tittied white wife >she left him and took their kid years and years ago >he's re-married to a lady form SE Asia >they moved here, all the wives/gf's in our circle are corrupting her and talk smart ass shit about him >she's being bitchier and shittier all the time
I told him not to bring her here, to stay there with her where his money makes him rich by their standards.
Women are the root of all societal decay, but only because men let them start to make their own decisions in a leisure society with ample resources.
Matriarchy is primitivism writ large.
Patriarchy is the only reason some fat bitch can complain on an iPhone in an air conditioned Starbucks.
Without patriarchal family structure, society literally melts down or becomes conquered by a patriarchal structure.
This is what is happening in Europe, the hyper patriarchy of Islam is conquering the feminine numale Europe.
Mexican machismo may take over America some day, though I feel we have a better chance given the rural masculinity in the heartland.
Nolan Perez
This is all dependant on the "appeal to nature" fallacy . It assumes the natural human sexuality is some how "correct " and "good" . Instead of viewing our breaking from it as a necessary consequence of advancing as a society
Brayden Cooper
>So we can expect even more men jumping ship to other cultures that give them a reason to invest in them? It's a good option but i don't think it's a natural instinct for men to do that. In chimp society it is the young female that may move to another tribe to mate, and sometimes she even goes back to her original tribe to raise her offspring there. Young males that can't mate just hang around the alpha male band trying to lure one of his females for a sneak fuck. They don't move to other tribes because they would just get killed, unless they are in large bands to kill and subdue the other tribe's males and conquer their females, absorbing that group.
So it could happen in humans, it's just not a natural drive.
Lincoln Baker
The only way for Europe and European people to survive is the revival of basically fascism.
William James
It seems you haven't read the book. If I recall correctly, the author argues that hunter gatherers did not follow an alpha/beta mating behavior, but a free-for-all mating style. Harems only formed after agriculture was invented, when a small minority of men owned the means of (re)production.
Evan Young
pic related
Brody Davis
Straight, chaste, family oriented civilizations are the ONLY growing civilization. All others are in decline or gone. google.ca/amp/s/ethikapolitika.org/2014/08/19/civilizations-sex/amp/ If you want to act like a animal, don't be surprised when the impulse for violence succeeds your need for cum.
Bentley Phillips
theres 3 theories, the first comes from the book (free for all) the second is post agriculture, the third is post monotheistic religion
Logan Diaz
bump. some interesting shit in here
Isaac Kelly
So human desires are constant throughout history, ie women always want the best, they will tend towards hypergamy
So the question is what do we do now? Do we reject these women and just use them as sexual tools to be fucked and dumped? (most of them are already ruined anyways) Do we try to fix them and turn hoes into housewives? Or do we move to places where women adhere to more patriarchial values. Or is our only hope to restore patriarchial values in society (seems like a stretch, won't happen unless there's some kind of crisis imo)
