200 years after Jesus died some jews started writing down the oral tradition of the Pharisees. The Pharisees believed that God gave Moses spoken rules in addition to the written ones. These were always kept separate and not written down. Nonetheless, in a time when jews were being scattered, some jews started writing down this oral tradition, even though their forefathers would have killed them for doing so just like they killed Jesus. This translation of the oral tradition did not take a year, or two years, it took three hundred years. So the rabbis, as we now call them, were constantly editing and adding to these rules, now called the Talmud, for three hundred years. Once the Talmud was completed the rabbis declared it was on par with the Torah. This is seriously what modern jews believe. What we call jews today actually does not line up with the jews of the bible. The jews of today are Talmudists who came into being hundreds of years after the death of Jesus.
Most Absurd, Ahistorical Religion? Judaism
Feel free to add other jewish redpills.
>i dont really know anything about judaism let alone the talmud, just saw dank antisemetic maymays and now im reposting it again cuz there are never enough muh talmud posts on Sup Forums
eat shit and die
Every fact there is true. The Talmud wasn't started until 200 BC. It wasn't finished until 500 BC. The Pharisees did not believe you should write down the oral tradition. What facts are wrong?
Imagine being jewish in 250 BC. Your rabbi is constantly making up new shit. One week the rules are this, the next new rules are added. The rules you learn are different than the rules your father learned and your children will learn. You are told this is the oral tradition going back to Moses. That these rules that are constantly being augmented are on par with the Torah. You believe this.
>started in 200 BC
>finished in 500 BC
wow didn't know the jews were time-travelers you stupid fucking burger
judaism is actually a pretty bro-tier religion.its always been evolving which is what makes it so dynamic. there are some elements of reform judaism for instance, that openly admit that much of the torah is ahistorical.
I used to have a jewish friend who explained all of the different types of judaism to me and it was pretty fascinating. basically Sup Forums has bits and pieces of it mixed with bs.
AD, thank you for correcting that typo. You could have figured that out if you read the OP. The Talmud wasn't started until 200 years after the death of Jesus.
here you go
Most smart jews don't believe in judaism. It is basically just a tradition they follow. The smartest jews often openly reject their faith. There is a reason that former jews have the highest rates of atheism. The religion is absurd.
>evolving faith
God will announce it if he'll have a change of heart.
Well you need to understand that the talmud is not a dogmatic text the way the torah or new testament might be. The talmud is essentially the record of endlesses debates generations of jews have been having about every aspect of their faith. This element of debate and evolution is what makes judaism so dynamic compared to say islam. if you're serious about wanting to learn more, check out www.chabad.org/ or google your question with "chabad"; its an excellent resources for info. everything from reincarnation to the talmud is covered.
and you will announce God's intentions amiright?
This is mostly right, but the Pharisees were actually just one sect of jews from Jesus' time. There were a powerful and rich sect. The priests in charge of the Temple were actually from a separate sect that only believed in the Torah. There were also tons of mystics who had mixed beliefs.
>The religion is absurd.
by what standard? Judaism is probably the most versatile faith out there and certainly the most rational of the big 3. Hell, some reform jews dont even believe the torah is historical.
>www.chabad.org
Thank you for the response. I may refer to that resource in the future. However, this thread is about the historical creation of judaism as we know it today. Feel free to add to or correct any facts in this thread.
Goyim, seriously, stop trying to understand something that's was never meant for you to understand. It's whole purpose is to confuse you and you are taking the bait like a retarded infantile.
>torah is historical.
That isn't a rational belief. The Torah is historical. It may not relate fact by fact to what really happened, but it is a historical record. If you want to know about ancient times in that part of the world the Torah is a great place to start.
I should have said *completely* historical.
Feel free to correct any facts in this thread. Too many people believe fallacious rhetoric about jews and Jesus. We hear things like "Jesus was a jew" which just is confusing and wrong if you associate the jews of today with the jews of the bible. We also hear complete bullshit like Christianity came from Judaism, when todays Judaism is hundreds of years younger than Christianity.
The most important lesson from this thread is that Christianity is not an offshoot of Judaism. They are sibling religions and Christianity is the older sibling.
>This translation of the oral tradition did not take a year, or two years, it took three hundred years. So the rabbis, as we now call them, were constantly editing and adding to these rules, now called the Talmud, for three hundred years.
The talmud is not just a "translation of the oral tradition". Its scholarship, legal opinion, customs, debate, ethics, and more. This allows the religion to evolve and be subject to reinterpretation in new circumstances. In some ways, its comparable to the Catholic and Orthodox Christian extra-biblical traditions (as opposed to protestant scriptura sola) though even more breathing room than those. Some of what you are saying is technically correct, but you are attempting to frame it in the worst way possible. Try getting a mere cursory understanding outside of Sup Forums infographics and posts.
Westerners forget that it's an ethnic religion, it came out of apeople and not something conjured from a set of individuals.Like hinduism, european paganism, it's a set of stories dispersed around the communities, in various versions, it all started as oral myths and with time became written down and became standardized.Although if you believe in god shit, i guess your are forced to think that the faith was always monolithic, never-changing, Moses actually wrote his books five trillion years ago and they were preserved through god magic but Jews stopped following its laws.But even with Christianity, while people believe that it always was static, it's very diverse with a chaotic history.
The talmud should be seen as Christian books like writings of our Church fathers, various catechisms, monastic rites and rules within a particular monastery, combined into a set of tomes.Lay protestants took the sola scriptura meme too hard forgetting that Luther himself wrote many texts for the pious to read.
>wanting more threads about stupid shit
>not wanting talmud threads
Yeaaah, JIDF on your proxy there, gonna have to ask you to go kill yourself right faggot
>This allows the religion to evolve and be subject to reinterpretation in new circumstances.
In addition, this isn't some monolithic Jewish formulation. If you actually read it, most of them disagree with each other on a wide array of issues. There are several schools of thought and hundreds of different Jews with differing opinions on everything.
man, Mel Gibson really went downhill
>Some of what you are saying is technically correct, but you are attempting to frame it in the worst way possible.
Guilty, which is why I posted pictures of Trey Parker and Matt Stone. That should have given that away.
From what I have seen Judaism is more philosophical and less muh god and Holy Spirit. Rabbis are more like psychiatrists in the community instead of priests or imams.
Israel is the most secular state in the Middle East and most people don't consider themselves religious but still go to Synagogue.
>The most important lesson from this thread is that Islam is not an offshoot of Christianity. They are sibling religions and Islam is the older sibling.
this is what you sound like.
yeah to be fair though, some orthodox jews are as dogmatic as anyone else. but secular jews and reform jews dont like them for that
>The most important lesson from this thread is that Christianity is not an offshoot of Judaism. They are sibling religions and Christianity is the older sibling.
>Nonetheless, in a time when jews were being scattered, some jews started writing down this oral tradition, even though their forefathers would have killed them for doing so just like they killed Jesus.
Thoughts? I think jewish-Christian relations would be a lot better if we could all agree that the Pharisees were basically Nazis who killed, expelled, and oppressed religious minorities like Christians and other jewish mystics. They also got the Second Temple destroyed by being such assholes. They were so hated that the first rabbis intentionally hid their connections to the Pharisaic thought.
No, Islam is much younger than Christianity. That doesn't make sense. Judaism is a radical offshoot of the Pharisees. This offshoot happened hundreds of years after the death of Jesus. This is just a historical fact.
Geez why would those dirty handrubbers dare codify their oral law and tradition especially after the romans razed Jerusalem and buttblasted em.
>focus upon the fact that facts can be fabricated to form lies.
Eat shit opie
I didn't say there were wrong to do it. I said it was such a radical shift we should consider it the creation of a new religion.
It wasn't a "radical offshoot", it was an evolution. You may disagree with the direction it went but it still was an evolution. Christianity began as a sect of Judaism (yes, the Pharisee were one of several at the time. Through natural selection, the pharisees' Judaism won out).
>I said it was such a radical shift we should consider it the creation of a new religion.
Nope. They still speak the same language (though that too has evolved), share the same genetics (unless you unironically believe in the khazar meme), and reverse the same Torah.
>Through natural selection, the pharisees' Judaism won out
This is an interesting way of putting it. Christianity is much bigger than judaism, so it obviously won out by your definition of natural selection. The other sects were mostly destroyed by the Pharisees actively oppressing them and then by the Pharisees pissing off the Romans too much so everyone suffered.
There are many Christian sects that can claim the same, and I don't disagree. Christians typically don't care about the ethnic stuff as much, of course.
It wasn't just an evolution. It was a radical departure from how the religion was previously practiced. That is like calling Mormonism a natural evolution of Protestantism.
>Christianity is much bigger than judaism, so it obviously won out by your definition of natural selection.
I meant it won out against the other sects of Judaism by natural selection. Now Christianity is what made that "radical shift" that makes it fair to call it a new religion. Why? Because Paul opened it up to gentile converts. Judaism had always been an ethnocentric religion up until that point by definition; by abolishing that, it no longer became relevant amongst the majority of ethnic Jews.
We really need to flush out how strange this belief of yours is. Christianity is magnitudes bigger than judaism. If Christianity is a sect of judaism, then it is the real judaism now. As you can see we have a problem with language. Calling modern judaism Talmudists solves this and marks them as a young offshoot of Judaism. Alternatively, we could call Ancient Judaism the Abrahamic Faith. Then Christianity is obviously a sect of the the Abrahamic Faith, as is judaism. Christianity started hundreds of years before judaism under this naming scheme. The important thing is having clear definitions of words. Once we do, we can easily see that judaism is younger than Christianity.
>That is like calling Mormonism a natural evolution of Protestantism.
Not really, no. The shift from Judaism >>> Christianity could be compared to that.
The shift to Rabbinic Judaism was actually a pretty organic and gradual process in which many Jews were involved.
Your analogy would be correct if say, the majority of Christians gradually converted to Mormonism and now, Mormonism was the de-facto Christianity. In that world, it would be fair to call Mormonism a natural evolution of Christianity.
See we need clear definitions of the words we are using to avoid confusing.
No, it is a radical shift, and yes the Pharisees would have expelled, killed, and oppressed the first Rabbis just like they did to every other sect of the Abrahamic Faith.
>Christianity is magnitudes bigger than judaism
Yes, but amongst gentiles which disqualified it from it being Jewish. Christianity stopped being a Jewish sect the moment it opened up to the rest of the world. The descendants of the Israelites (or at least the closest thing we have to them), subscribe to Rabbinic Judaism. Thus, a natural evolution of the Judaism of the Israelites.
This is convenient reasoning. It is also sad. You should read the New Testament.
Also, I love the unintentional redpill in this thread. How many normies still believe that judaism is just a religion and isn't racial?
>You should read the New Testament.
I have and I love it. I'm not even jewish; in fact I have a Christian background and have lots of admiration for it.
Ur actually a humongous dingus with a juvenile understanding of Judaism
Feel free to contradict any facts in this thread. Or you can actually debate how we define terms like jews. That would be actually helpful.
What red-pill? Of course Judaism is racial or ethnic. Judaism has been tribe-based or ethnocentric from Day 1. Just as it was during the days of the Torah. There are countless Torah verses I could easily cite for you that will prove that. Jesus himself was a Jew preaching his own form of Judaism for Jews.
>I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Its doubtless that he ever imagined that his movement would become a worldwide gentile religion centuries later.
>doubtless
doubtful
So where dd the 500 part come from?
It took about 300 years to come to a consensus on what was to be included in the Talmud.
>Jesus himself was a Jew preaching his own form of Judaism for EVERYONE.
Don't mind me, just posting some OC I made while work in the office was slow couple of days before Christmas.
> tfw when this chan hasn't even discussed Tikkun Olam/Lurianic Kabbalah
> Claims to be red-pilled.
>>Jesus himself was a Jew preaching his own form of Judaism for EVERYONE.
Nope, that was Paul. If you read his letters, it is clear that Paul was at odds with the likes of Peter (people who were Jesus' own disciples!) and James (Jesus' brother!) over the issue of the necessity of the imposition of Jewish law on gentile converts. Who do you think had a more accurate view on Jesus; Paul or Jesus' brother + disciple?
The de-Judaizing of Christianity was a later, largely Pauline affair.
I have much more respect for mystical judaism than rabbinical. I would love to learn more. Do you have any recommendations? I think they are much closer to the beliefs of the common jews of biblical times, the jews that converted to Christianity. Historically, Christianity really is a mystical branch of the Abrahmic Faith. Miracles, resurrections, healings, etc. Remember that although the Pharisees were the huge assholes of the New Testament, Jesus did not agree with the priests of the Temple either. His followers were mostly the nomadic herders and farmers, not the rich city dwellers.
Jebem ti mater
>ignores most arguments that disagrees with him
I stopped paying attention to you when it became clear that you were not willing to define terms in the debate. That is the mark of someone who is just a bullshit artist. I trolled in this thread, but I willingly shifted and proposed we used reasonable, consistent terms. You had no interest in that. You are probably just a lapsed Catholic who has a fetish for judaism. Bugger off.
>I stopped paying attention to you when it became clear that you were not willing to define terms in the debate.
Nope, I disagreed with your terms and explained to you clearly in multiple posts, why they were flawed.
>I trolled in this thread, but I willingly shifted and proposed we used reasonable, consistent terms.
Nope, its your terms that are misleading. You have this cute narrative in your mind that Christianity is the true continuation of the "Abrahamic tradition" and Judaism is actually some offshoot created by evil villain pharisees. You know nothing of Judaism, of Talmud, Torah, or even New Testament scholarship. How do I know? Because I used to share this exact worldview thanks to Sup Forums before I went off to school, talked to jews irl, and read some introductory books on the topic. im shitting on my past "redpilled" self as much as im shitting on you.
Your merely stating the jewish perspective as fact and accepting it without reservations. You are pathetic and intellectually inept. I am not going to waste any more time on you.
>ITT Blue-pilled Christcuck lying to himself
Judaism predated Christianity
Deal with it
>Your merely stating the jewish perspective as fact and accepting it without reservations.
You mean the perspective of virtually all religious scholars and leaders. Not that im appealing to authority, my arguments laid out already debunk your point.
>You are pathetic and intellectually inept.
aww, babby is mad someone debunked his pet theory
> I am not going to waste any more time on you.
cognitive dissonance ladies and gentlemen
>The term ["Jew"] originated in the late eighteenth century
nigga what u smokin on
u got that kush kush?
pass the blunt to the nigga on your left
>Wtf I love judaism now
Agreed.
Timeline:
Ancient Abrahamic Faiths pre-Jesus:
Pharisees, Priests of the Temple, Nomadic Brotherhoods, Various Mystical Strains
Christianity is probably characterized as a Mystical strain of the Abrahamic Faith at this time.
Jesus Dies. Various Christian offshoots form.
The Pharisees go full Nazi mode and start expelling, killing, and oppressing all other Abrahamic Faiths (the Maccabees also did this decades before).
Then the Pharisees stupidly take on the Romans, because they are crazy assholes, and the Romans destroy the Temple. All Abrahamic Faiths are punished because of the Pharisees.
The peoples of Judea are being expelled from their own lands.
This keeps going on for like 150 years.
The first Rabbis appear. The purposefully try to hide the fact that they are the intellectual descendants of the Pharisees because everyone hates the Pharisees because the Pharisees were literal Nazis who got the Temple sacked.
Finally, around 200 AD, the Rabbis start writing down their debates about the Pharisaic oral tradition.
This takes 300 years, so now we are at 500 AD. The Talmud is done. Most of the jews that exist are these Talmudists or are politically ruled by them. Still some mystic branches of the Abrahamic Faith outside of Christianity exist, but the Talmudists constantly oppress them through political power and force.
Today we call the Talmudists the jews.
Normies like you think the judaism is older than Christianity.
These are facts that no one in this thread denies. Be it the jews or that intellectually pathetic cuck who believes every word a jew tells him.
If you're such an expert, why don't you give your point to correct him and enlighten us all instead of strawmanning him?
Either you are mentally retarded, 10 years old, or a shill. Either case, fuck off and die.
JUST
>Paul opened it up to gentile converts.
Christ did that Himself. Paul prevented cultural genocide via Christianity. Hence our surviving traditions from older times.
OT is just harder to decipher. Depending on the book of course.
What sect practices blood libel?
Paul was a studied man, Peter and James were not- instead of focusing on Christ's teachings they stumbled on tradition.
the talmud was basically Sup Forums for rabbis. no jew "believes the talmud." there are some fairly agreed upon doctrines but they mostly just study it and derive meaning from the debate and continuing to debate themselves.
>khazar hypothesis
disproven by genetic analysis. a cursory glance at roman records would disprove the notion that there wasn't a jewish nation in judea. the fact that they weren't called the english language demonym doesn't mean anything. that's like saying ancient greeks didn't exist because they weren't literally called 'greek'.
Do you deny the timeline?
There is nothing called a Talmudist you uneducated retards
I NEED TALMUD QUOTES FELLAS!!!!!!! THE MORE ESOTERIC THE BETTER!!!!
False. What predated Judaism and Christianity was something else. It had a temple, lineages, 12 tribes and multiple sects, one of which was the pharisees. They had the oral tradition, but were separated from current Jews by not being matrilineal, by having a temple and by having the lineages. Current Jews are descendants of not only heretical pharisees, but of pharisees who broke their own rules - such as writing down the oral tradition. Add in the khazars and the sterilization of Ethiopian Jews...
>khazars
This looks to be false now. DNA tests seem to contradict that theory (which was created by a jew).
(((seem)))
I see. I won't simply ignore the Khazars, though, as the records do have them converting to Judaism. Guess they left it as well?
>tfw I respect all mysticists of all religions that respect wisdom, be they Muslim, Buddhist or even satanic (like Dugin, many rabbis)
>I just want people not to break their claimed principles
>be born Finnish, a nation of pharisees who think they are the goyim
what do they believe happens after you die? I haven't been able to find a clear answer online
They claim that Christ is in fecal hell.
>Christ starts preaching on r9k
Don't shit on the main nigga Paul
ok but what about normal people, or followers of the religion?
I think they are waiting for the Messiah for that part, ironically enough. But they acknowledge an afterlife.
i don't really disagree with the basic outline of events but you're playing around with terminology in a disingenuous way. the pharisees were descended from the people of the kingdom of judah. as was jesus. as are in some measure modern jews. the religion of the people of the kingdom of judah is accurately called judaism. of course it changed and transformed with the march of centuries, as did the descendants of judah themselves. but it existed way back then before roman times and it exists in its much changed state today. there is a clear line of descent. the primary book of the religion of the people of the kingdom of judah is still the primary book of modern jews and judaism today.
it's like you're twisting yourself into knots trying to prove that ancient judaism and modern judaism are different when no one disputes that. post-temple judaism is explicitly, knowingly post-temple. the absence of the temple informs almost everything in modern judaism and the wish for a return to temple-judaism informs all jewish redemption narratives.
from my understanding of christianity, this should all be rather irrelevant to a christian.
no clear doctrine. you can find rabbis saying all kinds of things. there is a nebulous concept of heaven (eden) and a temporary hell (gehenna) but it's ill defined and varies according to the source.
>chabad.org
A few khazars converted but nothing on a mass scale. Only traces (if that) of mixture remain
>Current Jews are descendants of not only heretical pharisees
The winners get to define words like "heretical"
They lied about gays very nicely too and said everybody is a woman except Lucifer. Whom is. Including God and Adam and that this is why you need to regrow a vagina. Don't worry about Christ. The xena warrior princess messiah. Of myself. byhisspirit.info
These concepts are called platonic complementarity outside the kabbalah and talmud. Torah wasn't good enough. Messianic torah wasn't good enough
>The winners get to define words like "heretical"
That is a heretical view. Christ himself says that he'll create followers (Israel) out of rocks if He is rejected entirely.
That, and the numerous parables imply evolution to me... But maybe I'm the heretic?
so its like reincarnation with a brief stop in the Garden of Eden?
>i don't really disagree with the basic outline of events but you're playing around with terminology in a disingenuous way. the pharisees were descended from the people of the kingdom of judah. as was jesus. as are in some measure modern jews. the religion of the people of the kingdom of judah is accurately called judaism. of course it changed and transformed with the march of centuries, as did the descendants of judah themselves. but it existed way back then before roman times and it exists in its much changed state today. there is a clear line of descent. the primary book of the religion of the people of the kingdom of judah is still the primary book of modern jews and judaism today.
>it's like you're twisting yourself into knots trying to prove that ancient judaism and modern judaism are different when no one disputes that. post-temple judaism is explicitly, knowingly post-temple. the absence of the temple informs almost everything in modern judaism and the wish for a return to temple-judaism informs all jewish redemption narratives.
Well-stated.
>86754
Now that's a get.
>it's like you're twisting yourself into knots trying to prove that ancient judaism and modern judaism are different when no one disputes that. post-temple judaism is explicitly, knowingly post-temple. the absence of the temple informs almost everything in modern judaism and the wish for a return to temple-judaism informs all jewish redemption narratives.
pretty much this. Its like he thinks its some big secret he's uncovered that Judaism evolved post-temple.
This kike does not have a life. Always shitting here for shekels. Faggot manlet.
Jews have the highest rate of mental disorders. So you're a retard and a crazy manlet bitch.
Third temple comes. Israel and judah reunite. Christ does Codes with us. Until He fulfills whole thing after Millennium and final judgment and the flood of fire. Israelis are not israelites. Israel is spiritual. Jerusalem is trampled by Gentiles. Zion comes from God from the clouds with Christ. Not from Bibi