Is Taxation theft?

Is Taxation theft?

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Not paying taxes is theft, everyone receives benefits from the government, directly or indirectly.

Not when you benefit from it.

Yes. Every modern country is a tax farm.

Not if you know exactly what is being done with your money.

The problem here in the US is that government spending has grown and become so convoluted that it's impossible to know anymore.

Mafia gives you back 20% of the 100dollars he stole from you, clearly not theft.

Mafia forces you to buy their services under threat of violence, not theft since you got a service you could use out of it :)

Mafia tells you they're gonna use the money to hire more goons, suddenly not theft since you know where it's going.

It's hard seeing all these brainlets at once.

Yes.

Didn't he pretty much drop all of his libertarian values and become a full on stormfag?

Let's assume this utopian perspective is correct. What happens when a government official decides to take some of that money and give it directly to his friends, who do not do things that benefit everyone?

Yes.

You don't pay taxes, NEET.

As a country run by both goverment and Mafia, I agree with this post.

I am a socialist.

Yes, it is.

If given the option, would you opt out of any and all social services and government-aided utilities, and in return, you wouldn't have to pay taxes?

Yes, and everyone saying otherwise is jumping through hoops.
"B-but the thief bought me really nice shoes with the money he stole! I know t-they're not my size/preferred brand b-but I got like 40% of my m-moneys worth after bureaucratic waste... so it's totally not theft!

Sadly there isn't an easy way to remove yourself from society.

No.
Fuck, no.
Taxation is just the money you need to pay for being a citizen of your state, for using its structures, services, etc.
You are always free to renounce your citizenship and move away and stop paying taxes

this meme really needs to die

he's gone through a dramatic shift in tone over the last year or two, but I think he still advocates a stateless society - just with the caveat that it only works with a white population

Taxation in general is not theft.

However certain taxes, like income tax and property tax, are theft.

I'd pay for defence only because that's what a government's main purpose is.

How is that utopian? For example I cut my arm and go to a public hospital, public money was spent there to help me, only fair that I pay taxes for it.

And government officials can't just take money and give it to their friends, that would be illegal. Obviously it happens but that's why the justice system exists roight?

Property tax is.

You never really own "your land", don't pay they can take it away.

Death Tax is.

Money loved one leaves you and (((They))) feel entitled to it.

Income Tax could go either way depending how much they take and whether it is truly reinvested in the welfare of the citizens (and by welfare I don't mean gibs).

Sales tax, no.

Sure, the money I'd save would afford me all the things the state offers me.

I'd agree to paying 1-5% of my income for upholding courts, police and military tho.

this, property tax is infuriating

In a fantasy world, sure. But Government is a necessary evil. You give up some of your possessions for security, infrastructure, and welfare.

People grew comfortable and soft and let evil in the government grow beyond control and now we are facing the consequences but it's still necessary regardless.

Since the Constitution literally granted power to the feds to do it, nope.

when you get to the point where the government has so egregiously over spent that it starts making taxes that it hides from it's citizens, like how your employer matches all the taxes that you pay, and then says that it's not taxes on you (that is taxing value that you created and would otherwise be compensated for, it's a tax on what you would be paid) so that you don't realize that even on the bottom you're paying around 50% taxes then it becomes theft. then it is taxation with a twisted form of manipulated representation.

Of course. If you can't make this observation yourself you are indoctrinated.

No, since I can't steal from what I believe to have created and own. It's harvesting

yes but it's a necessary form of theft

Yes, and I hate it when people try to deny it, those people should be shot in the streets like dogs.

Now, it's another thing to admit taxation is theft but say how we should use the taxes anyway, at least those people are being intellectually honest.

Honestly I can't argue with that.

Seems fair to me.

Except you're absolutely free to opt out of taxes whenever you'd like. Just leave the country and renounce your citizenship. It's not like you'd want to accidentally benefit from any of those things that tax dollars are granting you, right?

Is it theft if I take your money to spend on things I think you'd like, even if you don't want or use them while also donating a portion of it to NEETs and funding wars nobody wants?

depends on the tax, what it is for, the amount, if it's properly spent, etc

You never get in the same amount what you gave in, so its either you are robbing someone else or you are getting robbed

Yes

That government function would only cost 0.5% in peacetime and maybe 5% in wartime. The government, when operating at barebones is cheap, it's when it attempts other activities that it gets expensive and bloated.

Considering the concept of "theft" only exists under a code of law enforced by a state, no

Yes but you have to realize that property is also theft.

If I were asked to answer the following question: What is slavery? and I should answer in one word, It is murder!, my meaning would be understood at once. No extended argument would be required to show that the power to remove a man's mind, will, and personality, is the power of life and death, and that it makes a man a slave. It is murder. Why, then, to this other question: What is property? may I not likewise answer, It is robbery!, without the certainty of being misunderstood; the second proposition being no other than a transformation of the first?
—Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, What is Property?

>Somebody is forcing you to do something you dont want to do
>Lmao just move away from that person
>The person forcing me to do shit shouldn't stop

Are you victim blaming me?

taxation is theft regardless of consent

I'm saying that if you're receiving goods and services you didn't pay for, you're a thief.

Being forced to give money to a government isn't theft?

youtube.com/watch?v=fasTSY-dB-s

if the taxes aren't reverted in proper investments, yes.

rich people love to complain about taxes, but the truth is that society needs it.

if they don't want to pay taxes them fuck off to monaco and carry your biz with you. go try being rich there.

What is the difference between leftist progressivism and right wing Liberals (Libertarians for instance) in regards to personal freedom? Libertarians who hate degeneracy? How can you go against their personal freedom? How can you reduce society to something so atomistic with universal personal rights on an individual level?

Why are Libertarians so incoherent?

>unconsensual removal of my dignity

It's more like rape

If you steal 20dollars from me and buy me a chocolate bar for 2dollars, that doesn't make your initial action ok. It's just some shitty compensation you gave me to try and justify yourself.

Everyone grows out of libertarianism at some point

Not going to bother watching your 11 minute rebuttal video. But let me guess... you think paying rent is theft too, right? Having to spend money on a car is also theft, right?

being forced to give to the government is theft even if you eventually get money back.
its
forced

yes

>but the truth is that society needs it.
no, only low IQ googles or incompetent people need it

no, because somebody owns the building that is being rented, meaning that they voluntarily entered into a contractual agreement where they purchased the house
same with the car

just watch the video you fucking autist

No. You are willingly pay your taxes

LIBERTARIANS

NEVER

ANSWER

THIS

QUESTION

It depends on whether the taxes end up serving the tax payers or not. Sending millions of dollars to Israel each year without the consent of taxpayers is theft, where as road maintainance, water supply improvements, and public land management are not theft.

You just ostracize them. If "degenerate" behavior is detrimental, their numbers will dwindle.

It's like preventing obesity through shaming fats so people don't want to become them.

Except I didn't take your $20 yet. You ATE $20 of chocolate bars and then I came around asking everyone to chip in the money for the chocolate that was eaten. Everyone else throws in their $20 and you suddenly announce how even though you've benefited from that chocolatey goodness, you shouldn't have to contribute like everyone else.

By virtue of you just existing in a country with taxes, you're already consuming those chocolate bars. Like how you weren't murdered in your sleep? That's thanks to taxes and cops. Like how your house didn't collapse on you because it was made with refuse and bubblegum? There go your taxes again!

>a man points a gun at you and asks for your wallet
>you willingly give your wallet to him
>this is not theft

So let me get this straight, you understand and even seem to agree with the concept of paying someone to receive goods and services, even ones that are basic human necessities, you understand the concept of contracts and location...

...yet the idea of citizenship are the costs inherent in that are too complicated for you?

the concurrence of libertarian and progressive forces in society will only result in social degeneration

this "ostracization" is dubious

watch the FUCKING video you stupid nigger
it addresses every single point in this line of questioning

I'm not even a libertarian, I just understand their point of view

>watch this 11 minute video because I'm too stupid to make my own point

Libertarians. Every single time.

Ah, in case you didn't read the no in that: no.

>'I defend a taxless society that'll inevitably form a caste system in which I daydream of making part of the top, but in fact don't and never will.'
Tome juizo.

CONFIRMED

4

AUTS

Degeneracy is usually costly.

When people will have to bear the brunt of their degeneracy will learn to stop or will die.

Ostracism is always an effective strategy.

I didn't choose to have cops protect me tho. It's a service forced upon me, and I'm forcibly paying. I didn't choose to be born here, the state decided that since I am born here, they're going to give me X and take my Y. I never agreed to it, thus it is immoral.

What's worse, I'm forcibly paying for government services I don't utilize. Paying for chocolate I didn't eat, just because those who did eat it has guns pointed to me.

>WATCH THIS VIDEO
>no
>WATCH THIS VIDEO
>its 11m long, no
>WATCH THIS VIDEO
>lol no
>OMG WHAT AN AUTISM

Solid exchange, my man. Seriously though, did you have any opinions or views you could defend yourself, or do you need YouTube to do ALL your talking for you?

Jerry steals $20 from Tim and gives it to Max without Max's consent so Max is a thief? Not Jerry? You need to be shot in the street because there's no having an honest discussion with people like you You're dangerous in the long run.

If it goes to welfare, yes.

If we disconnect all groups of people in the US from the state, which do you think are going to prosper? The hard working white and asians with strong community bonds or the niggers in Detroit who's got no tradition of business and being orderly. Of course the whites and asians will prosper the most, and other groups will to adopt their way of life.

it's retarded to go full libertarian/ancap

Give to caeser what is caeser's, give to God what is God's.

If you are a libertarian then you cannot be christian.

>I REFUSE TO LEARN
>SPEND 11 MINUTES TYPING OUT EVERYTHING THAT IS SAID IN THIS VIDEO FOR ME SO I CAN SKIM THROUGH IT AND DISMISS IT IN A SNARKY ONE LINE COMMENT

not replying to you anymore
you clearly just want to shitpost and continue believing you're right

Is taking a large sum of money from a person under penalty of retribution theft?

Regardless, you signed the social contract. You elected to place your residency in land owned by that government and accepted the taxes included therein. Whether you're enjoying the chocolate you're consuming or not, it was still your decision to make and you've made it.

Or, and seriously, this is going to blow your mind... don't type out the entirety of the 11 minute video. Sum up the parts that you found relevant to the conversation we were having! Or even better, take the information you learned having watched the video and formulate your own argument! Look at that, now we're cooking!

You're never going to make it here kid if you think dropping YouTube links is going to substitute for being able to defend a position.

Not if you consent.
And if you consent, and others don't, they are stealing from you.

>whites and asians will prosper the most, and other groups will to adopt their way of life

Except that social development in a democratic but libertarian society will inevitably lead back to egalitarianism and that social development in the modern world will inevitably lead to decadence and decay without traditionalism.

>being born
>consenting to a social contract

Whoa dude you're like blowing my mind

nice strawman faggot

Are all Americans as insufferable cunts as you?

This, except I'd say income tax should be illegal. Sales tax is fine.

>Being born is signing a contract

I didn't choose my place of residency, I was born here by forces outside of my control, and I was kept here by forces outside my control. I have never voted in any election in Sweden since I've not been 18yo or older at the times they were held.

I did not choose make Sweden my place of residency. No agreement between me and the state has ever been made.

>gets told
>'waaaaa s-straw argument'
no one rich enough to be at the top of the system I mentioned would be here.

Whoa whoa whoa, are you saying that something is out of your personal control? You faggot communists need to be purged.

Based swede is based.

Your parents formed the contract for you, exercising their power of custody. As of the age of 18 you became an adult with the ability to choose your residency. If you've elected not to for whatever reason, that complacency and continued absorption of those delicious Swedish government chocolates are your confirmation that you consent to the social contract on taxes. But again, you have the right to leave and denounce your citizenship at any time.

Decided to switch gears and cry through a proxy?

>Muh social contract

This is the lazy intellectual equivalent of calling someone a racist and thinking you've made an argument.

First, if you're opted-in by default and have to opt-out, it shows that some level of force is required.

Second, all existing projects (roads, libraries, etc.) have already been paid for, this doesn't justify the continued extortion of people for future projects. Nor does it bar me from their current use should they be privatized or I stop paying my taxes.

>traditionalism
You can have it alongside libertarianism. The state just can't force it upon people.

If degenerate ways are detrimental for society, which I believe you believe since you speak of it in a negative manner, then they shouldn't prosper to the same extent traditionalist ways do. Let the niggers be niggers and let them ruin their cities, those who want to build good societies will do such and not allow for others to ruin it.

Libertarianism is like evolution for ideas and culture, adapt to be beneficial and effective or bite the dust.

>This is the lazy intellectual equivalent of calling someone a racist and thinking you've made an argument.
Not an argument.

>First, if you're opted-in by default and have to opt-out, it shows that some level of force is required.
You're not opted in by default. You have to be in the country first, which means you either went there willingly in which case seeking citizenship, work, asylum whatever is your consenting to the contract, or your parents birthed you there and they as your guardians are exercising it on your behalf.

>doesn't justify the continued extortion of people for future projects
As long as you elect to live in that country, it does.

>If my parents lived in an apartment without my consent I should be able to live in that apartment even if I/they decide to stop paying rent

You dumb hippies always make me laugh.

Stupid nigger why didn't you leave your fucking country when obongo reigned? It's about trying to change and improve one's nation, the way he thinks is the best way for it.

>Stupid nigger why didn't you leave your fucking country when obongo reigned?
Because I understand the purposes of taxes? I don't really understand the point you're trying to make, unless the opening was you prefacing as "I'm a stupid nigger, make sense of the following if you can:"

>Your parents formed the contract for you
That's something you can't do.

A person can never sign a contract with you without your consent. Otherwise I would sign people that I dont like up for some retarded agreements and make them suffer.

The fact that my parents signed it has no bearing on the matter, they are individuals like myself and have the very same rights I do. A person should never hold additional juridical power over another on the basis of how they are biologically related.

So by this logic you should be allowed to do whatevet you like(including theft) as long as you haven't signed any papers.
Therefore it is not wrong for the government to commit said theft by gunpoint

>A person can never sign a contract with you without your consent.

Think not? From the moment you're conceived she can sign a form to have you aborted, sign a form to have you adopted out, sign a form to make you a ward of the state, sign you into damn near everything and anything.

But that's besides the point that was being made. The parent has assumed your social contract while you're a minor. You're not paying taxes, they are. When you become of age, that's when your contract itself is signed. Sweden has no obstacles toward emigration. Regardless of where your parents ultimately decided to sign their contracts and give birth to you, you as an adult are free to sign yours wherever you like.

Why you elected to stay in Sweden and not go to the Cayman Islands is entirely on you.

Yes.

its not theft, its actually slavery. lets say your tax bracket is 30%. that means 1 and a half day out of a 5 workday week is spent working for free for the government.