What does Sup Forums think about collective ownership of the means of production?

What does Sup Forums think about collective ownership of the means of production?

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communists get out

Fine, as long as it's voluntary and private ownership isn't barred.

Just because an exchange is voluntary doesn't mean it's fair

There are benefits, but there are drawbacks. Some of these drawbacks need to be solved before I'm willing to buy in.

How do you deal with the paradox of universal suffrage?

The means of production should all be destroyed; we were all much better off as nomadic hunter-gatherers.

When Europe collapses it will be fun killing you disgusting rats

To the helicopter with u

What paradox?

>getting killed for Porky in the battle against your comrades who want justice
>?
Why

'Fair' doesn't really mean anything. Life's not fair and that's okay.

So long as the collective is the nation, I don't care about subdivision.

This however is a route to eternal cuckery IF you don't ban (voluntary) foreign ownership.

The paradox comes from trying to balance control and ownership. If you are said to own something, then you must be able to control it.

This leads then to the issues that come from collective control. If you allow collective control of collectively owned assets, then you NEED a way to filter out, or control poor decision making tendencies among that community. However, if you take away control, you have effectively taken away ownership, as now it is the "knowledgeable stewards" that are taking care of the "dead weight" owners.

This isn't a problem of specifically collective ownership, but in governance in general(community control). However, it is acutely relevant when speaking about ownership rights.

Remember- injustice is not okay
Demanding justice is good for practical reasons too

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Inefficient, Unsustainable and Terrible on all levels.

Marxists all need to die.

There's not collectivism in that.

It's just owned by a few dozens of cunts comprising the party's elite and that call themselves, "people" or "proletariat"

Hmm even in the dictatorships of Asia and East Europe they had actual communes and collectives, some of which still exist today

If they had more democracy they could have done more of this and got rid of more of the centralisation

Communism:
>has never existed, despite multiple attempts
>every attempt leads to mass starvation of their own people
>is easily subverted through other ideologies
>solves no problems that other ideologies don't already solve better
>no clear solution to fix constant failures
>claims human nature either doesn't exist, or is easy to change
>fixes none of the cultural issues that would derive from total automation of industry

Fascism:
>no two fascist nations have ever gone to war with each other
>fascism has never had a mass starvation problem
>fascism has actually existed, and it fixes all the problems communism seeks to solve
>early fascist failures are easily solved by reducing aggression and warmongering, as shown by other successful fascist nations
>utilizes human nature by designing a system meant to take advantage of it
>fixes all of the cultural issues that would derive from total automation of industry


youtube.com/watch?v=8LW6y-kgKtA

>fascism has never had a mass starvation problem
so you accept the holocaust was intentional genocide then, not just camps where everyone starved by accident?

LOL IT'LL WORK THIS TIME GUISE

>fascism solves all the problems communism seeks to solve

But that's completely wrong

We have a winner.

Of course the Holocaust was intentional. I don't support it, but racial genocide is not an inherent part of fascism.

Communism is caused by Jews along with all other problems

Fascism solves the Jewish problem.

Oy Vey

But it does though

It's impossible on any considerable geographic scale. it contradicts human nature, as our social selves function on a dichotomic paradigm of dominance or subservience, just like most primates.

Fascism is capitalism with relatively more racism and state violence, and potentially state regulation of more of the economy.

Hitler closed down trade unions and was back by the ruling class.

Explain how this solves the problems communism is trying to solve

Have you never been in a workplace or living arrangement where a particular chore was "everyone's" job?

every far left post on Sup Forums is another DIY space shut down

MODS please ban the commie.

Commies pls go

You can take my private property, but you'll have to kill me to get it.

Are you aware that there is a distinction between private and personal property?

Private property = things you earn profit from owning

You want to own the means of production faggot? Open a stock portfolio. That's literally it. Congratulations. You own shares of the means of production along with everyone else.

So if I use my computer to play games it's fine, but if I open up Excel then it should be confiscated?

Kill yourself.
All property is private property, and I will never give you what's mine.

>fixes class conflict through class collaboration
>fixes poverty through regulation and supervision of the economy
>fixes degeneracy through laws and incentives
>fixes most international conflict through autarky and isolationism.

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You earn wages that way, not profit
Profit would be, for example, owning laptops purely to rent out to people (essentially using your ownership of capital to exploit people)

>class collaboration
Nice meme, but this doesn't amount to much. The source of the conflict is not eliminated, so conflict will always return, especially during recessions.
And the problem isn't just class conflict, but the existence of the ruling class exploiting other people

>Nazis fix international conflict through isolationism
>invades Poland for Lebenstraum and to attempt a Slav massacre

And just because you don't think it's fair doesn't mean you should be allowed to steal from me. If you try it, I'll shoot you in the belly and snapchat your screaming death to your mommy.

is there a pepe version of this picture?

I feel like I once saw one

>providing goods/services to people is exploitation
You are a criminal and you deserve to die.

Read my image until you understand it
You're providing goods and services- for a price.
But you shouldn't be able to extract a price from people just because you have more resources from them
'I have money so I deserve more money'- sad!
Over time it gets worse because the elite become nothing more than a parasitic class who inherit all their wealth and property and live a life of idleness
Why are we supposed to put up with this?

>I like to own something, but not carry any risk in achieving it.

I did say most conflict. I'll acknowledge that Germany and Italy were both warmongering, but for Germany that was largely a reaction to loss of land after WW1. Fascist nations like Peron's Argentina, Salazar's Portugal, and Franco's Spain didn't have the same expansionist policies.

>And the problem isn't just class conflict, but the existence of the ruling class exploiting other people
That's a big part what fascism seeks to change. The capitalist are forced to stop exploiting the people and instead their work and competition is made to benefit them, and the leaders who worked against their country for capitalism or internationalism are held accountable and disposed.

>under fascism, the capitalist are forced to stop exploiting the people
Its inherently exploitative
A union of state and corporate power makes the oppression of the working class even worse. There will be corruption and bureaucracy and burdensome taxes
And no improvement at all on poverty or oppression

It's not a union of state and corporate power, it's a submission of corporate power to the state. They become servants to the nation, not masters.

Even if you don't want it to happen, don't you think it will?

Die, Jew

Actually, I'm an ATHEIST redardt

No I don't. We've seen it work with great success before.

Besides, this same kind of logic can be applied to communism and it's wishful thinking for removing all religion, culture conflict, tribalism, hierarchy, and personal ambition.

Did you really see it work in Nazi Germany or did the fascists just defend the interests of businessmen and pretend they were 'preventing class conflict'?

The real way to prevent class conflict would have been to abolish classes in the first place.

It worked in the nordic countries from the early 20th century to the 70's. Look up folkhemmet, it was the system they used (known in other countries as "social corporatism") and it worked fantastically. In fact, as soon as they abandoned it their economy stagnated.