Hello Comrades. This general is for the discussion of Leftism. Left-wing politics supports economic equality and egalitarianism. This is in opposition to economic inequality and social hierarchy.
This general is intended to be a ‘broad tent’ for discussion of all Left wing philosophies, ranging from social democracy to full on communism.
Social democracy is a philosophy which supports intervention into the economic sphere for the purposes of reducing inequality and helping the unfortunate.
Socialism, often viewed as a transitional state between capitalism and communism, encourages social ownership and democratic control of the means of production. There are market forms of socialism as well as forms of socialism which seek to eradicate the market.
Communism encourages a stateless, classless society with collective ownership of the means of production, and distribution of assets according to the maxim, ‘from each according to their ability, to each according to their need.’
Leftism Thread
Love trumps hate :)
Good post
I'm so tired of other people having more than me. What we need is a revolution so I can have some of their stuff.
Who here is fucking a Muslim? It is our duty to show them that we see them as any other human! Spread your legs ladies!
Are we to assume that all humans are capable of performing any job at the same productivity level as any other human being doing said job?
To me, it would seem that not all people have the same talents and abilities. People also don't have the same kind of family and living situations growing up, and so having schools tailored to specific needs would be the best way to combat economic inequality without burdoning citizens in other living situations. Education is a massive tool to fight economic inequality. That is one of the few things I do support higher taxes for... Education... Education that is specialized to identify how each child needs to learn so that they can develop into a productive member of society and not need help from an authoritarian government.
Meeting 'equality of opportunity' requires actions far beyond the supply of equal education to every citizen.
If children are growing up in poverty they are usually being damaged in a way that makes it harder to develop into productive adults.
Yes, and that is why I say that every child should be evaluated in their educational institution. My Aunt runs a medium to high end day care. She said that if she was running it in a lower income area that she would change the curriculum to adapt for what the child may need to learn, primarily social skills.
If we were to go to some form of welfare that supported a parent for the sake of the child, I would be seeking sterilization of that child if they choose to remiss and go to the way of their family relying on the government to support them. If the parents decide to abuse the system and use children as a way to get money... Sterilization or let them see how Darwin deals with foolish decisions.
That sounds cold and heartless, but I seek a society that is not dependent on the government. The social programs would be a stepping stone for everyone to become self sufficient.
Be careful, though. If you end up not being part of the new ruling class then everything will go badly for you.
Good occupations: English major, philosophy major
Bad occupations: doctor, teacher
I think sterilisation is quite heartless, and forcing people to choose between starvation and sterilisation is also heartless.
If your system guaranteed everyone work, it would be more acceptable- but even then, certain people just have objections to the whole idea
>classless society
Nomenklatura when?
I am talking full on government subsidy. That if someone cannot find work, but expects the government to foot the bill for their offspring, then they can accept this massive social program so that their child can rise out of poverty. They are appealing to a large authoritarian government, and the consequences of failing to meet the expectations of the government would be severe.
I do not assume that everyone can have a job necessarily.
Fully planned economies do not work because human consumption of products and resources is too difficult to predict on a large scale. So can you guarantee paid jobs? Not really. If airlines go out of business because someone comes up with cheap teleportation, what do you do with the airline employees? A centrally planned government would not be able to react fast enough... Then the loss of jobs for companies that primarily develop aircrafts or their subcomponents... Everything in an economy is intertwined. So I do not expect everyone to have a job at all times.
Bonus: Only way I think a centrally planned economy will ever have a shot at working would be an extremely powerful AI on a supercomputer (most likeley a quantum computer). That is the only time at which I think it would be wise to test this idea again. Humans are far too slow to keep up.
You could guarantee 'if we can't find you a job, we'll just subsidise you and you won't get sterilised'.
The only time you would get sterilised is if you turned down too many jobs.
Also do you think it's worth forcing people to work pointless jobs just so they're 'doing something'?
I don't like the idea; I think people are also doing something by staying at home and we should trust them to be raising their productivity, helping out with children, and enjoying themselves in general.
If they are to work, then find them jobs that have progression, or at least are useful- like a nursing home
Do you understand my criteria for sterilization: Parents took government subsidy program to ensure that their children developed into capable and self sufficient members of society; A child who was on this program does not develop into a self sufficient member of society and is forced to go onto the program his parents went on; At that point, the child is sterilized. Or... The parents go onto the program and have 2 children... They start having too many children (arbitrarily say more than 5), and then they are sterilized in order to keep them from just leaching off of the rest of society. In these cases, birth control would probably need to be provided.
Ehh... I think there is some responsibility on the individual. Yes, too many jobs turned down would probably get the child, as described above, sterilized. My entire point is to break a cycle of... incapability... and not allow a system to be abused.
No, forcing people to work pointless jobs is silly unless it is used to teach the value of work... It can give them a sense of accomplishment, but that should be built upon to seek further employment.
I think we should have better available higher education syatems and vocational schools so that people can learn skills to move jobs... Being at home if they are learning is fine. I am okay with short term unemployment pay so long as it is not abused.
One thing I believe the government should do is forecast what industries they think will be hiring 4 to 8 years down the road so people can make informed decisions on what to study...
I did not mean for that first bit to sound hostile... More of a, let me present my criteria so that you understand where I am coming from.
Doesn't sound terrible in theory but the reaction people would have, even just to the idea of sterilisation, makes it more bother than its worth
You are quite correct on people freaking out about that idea. However, if we are talking an authoritarian government, what are the people going to do about it? This is assuming a government that is willing to use force to take money from its citizens to fun these crazy expensive programs. I don't necessarily think this is right, but it is one solution to the problem of income inequality over a long period of time...
fund*
agree
love trump's hate
capitalism relies on government enforcement of private property in order to ensure that people far away can control what goes on in the factory that they own.
If you are a wealthy investor who subsists off of dividends, you are leeching off of the government's military protection, to a much greater degree than someone collecting meager foodstamps or other aid.
The best way to promote education AND mental health/stability is to make sure that families never have to worry about basic necessities like hot water, heat, food, school supplies, clothing, etc.
Part of the cycle of poverty is poor parents inability to involve themselves in their child's life due to economic necessity. Remove this economic necessity and the "nuclear family" that facists praise so highly can actually exist for everyone.
the only way to have a society independent of government is to abolish government and bring control down to local levels. this is anarchy, and it seems to be the only feasible way to eliminate violence and inequality.
is punching nazis good or great?
He probably doesn't want people dependent on the community either.
Ultimately anarchy faces this dilemma as well, of to what extent to 'force' people to work
>you are leeching off of the government's military protection, to a much greater degree than someone collecting meager food stamps or other aid.
i dont agree at all, private propert is one of the main reasons western countries are as prosperous as they are, so to say that even the poorest dont benefit from private property is ridiculous
>is to make sure that families never have to worry about basic necessities
but what are thenegative aspects of this? you could easily see that if you provide food and shelter to everybody you will have a large amount of people simply not working and living off the government dole while watching tv and neglecting themselves and their lives
>Part of the cycle of poverty is poor parents inability to involve themselves in their child's life due to economic necessity
partly true, but the main factor i think is that you simply have waaaay more single parents nowadays and even if you have 2 parents working near minimum wage they are going to find some time to engage with kids(its not like they can afford a regular babysitter), main reasons poor parents fail i think is lack of basic skills that smarer and more sucvcessful people have and the fact that wealthier people hang around more successful social circles which wont make their child a fucking gangster nigga by the time hes 16
>daily reminder that leftists are worse than Hitler
>daily reminder that every communist government has failed and caused massive human rights abuses
Ignore these utopian idiots. They call you a Nazi but their bodycount is far higher.
>leaf
>yay, got a (you) to my argument!
oh its a fucking shitpost
hahahaha le ebin XDDDDDDDD
Anarchy also faces the idea of "groups" banding together to forcefully subjugate other people... If there is no government to enforce certain laws, protecting property and the rights (yes, those are subject to each person's opinion of what is a "right") of the individual, then you will get something like Mad Max or Snowcrash... I am not really a fan of that either.
>implying you're not shitposting
>Rummel
lel
Also, most leftists by far are anti-Soviet and anti-communist.
uh.. none of those were real socialism...
>but what are thenegative aspects of this? you could easily see that if you provide food and shelter to everybody you will have a large amount of people simply not working and living off the government dole while watching tv and neglecting themselves and their lives
I don't think so; they probably made the same argument against giving everyone healthcare.
You don't need to feel the looming hand of death on your shoulder, and stress out about your children not starving, to want to provide more than that for your family
>main factor is single parents
Poverty could be a stress factor leading to more divorce. I am worried about welfare states and single mothers, but I heard more important factors have been the equalisation of men and women, the changing law, and declining religion. Also in America the war or drugs
F leftists. Go eat glass.
[spoiler]IF[/spoiler] this thread is real how about we take our fucking political party back from corrupt asshats?
[spoiler]MAYBE THAT WOULD FUCKING HELP[/spoiler]
Agree on private property...
Yes to second paragraph... See my shit on sterilization in this thread for a wild read.
With regards to your last paragraph, I think I agree. Have to develop those skillz.
Can't eliminate violence or inequality, you can only decrease it to a certain extent. Only way to eliminate it completely would be straight out of brave new world giving people soma to subdue them and eliminate any kind of awareness altogether. There will always be stupid violent people who just want to destroy shit can't get rid of those without something drastic
>all this denial
Every fucking time
>You don't need to feel the looming hand of death on your shoulder, and stress out about your children not starving
i dont think children starving is not a real problem in the 1st world regardless of how large welfare programs are. It is more about what you can do after that. Here lemme give you an example
1. in Socialistland parents can either work 0hours, have food shelter and whatever basic necessities or they can work 50hrs a week to get their kids a slighly better life
2. in capitalistland parents can work 40hrs a week to provide food/shelter etc or work 50hrs to provide a kid a slghly a better life
which do you think will have more parents working 50hrs?
ofc the example is a bit of an extreme but i think the logic still applies on smaller scale
>Poverty could be a stress factor leading to more divorce
I think you are correct there, not sure what the rest of the sentance is suppose to mean though
And that is something I am in support of. I like the threat of police hauling off the guy who tries to steal my car, and if they are threatening my life... Well... I can deal with that in my location.
When you have a massive part of the population subsisting off of food stamps, then it will become a huge drain... 20,000,000 people x $15,000/year as just pulling numbers out of my ass (I don't know official numbers).
I believe that this is a good goal if you use capatilistic means to achieve it. I have been developing an idea on it... Will post it here sometime when it is done. Using technology to make those basic needs very cheap and affordable by more people.
Lol, see my shit on sterilization. Enjoy.
Haha, give me that Mad Max world. I do have a few friends who would love to start our own gnag if forced to do so... Anarchy would let Darwin take over, and equality would definitely not be the result.
None of yours plans will work with a population of average 80 IQ niggers
Get fucked commies
Why did Hitler pretend to be a leftist to come to power but then oppress the people and help the elites?
Hitler was wrong about the economy.
We need to combine capitalism and nationalism.
it was in interesting read, but i cant say i agree. i think it would be much more moral to temporarly steralize people who are on full government welfare untill they are off the system than punish their child for bad parenting and loads of other factors they could probably not control.
When he criticised 'Jewish' behaviours, he wasn't just picking on them for being Jewish. He recognised that parasitism on the labour of the working person is not okay.
And that inequality eventually creates class divisions that destroy a nation.
Unearned income has to go
The same reason that Kim Jong Un has a solid gold watch and a private jet while his people starve. Power corrupts and the only way you can have a functional government is a separation of power.
left accelerationism is the only future
>And that inequality eventually creates class divisions that destroy a nation.
examples please, preferably with inequality figures
Somewhere in this thread I mentioned providing BC for families. It would be a good option.
Think of it as ensuring that the government does not continue to support a system that does not allow for natural selection...
Cold... but... do you want to drag those who are completely incapable with us? It is not fun to think about, I give you that.
Creates tensions and destroys the spirit- sad!
I would read up on non-european societies, notably native american non-hierarchical redistributive societies (iroquois/eskimos to pick two examples off the cuff.)
European society is markedly more violent than almost all other societies, due to a lot of factors, one of them being that europe was backward as fuck for a long time. (need i remind you -- european scholars only found out about greek philosophers via arabic texts, they did not keep that shit.)
These aren't the most unequal countries, even
I can't find that data. But I was thinking Latin America, Africa, Russia, getting to be the US and UK
and which one of those qualify for
>creates class divisions that destroy a nation.
and the result of inequality is capitalism?
not an argument
a much better idea than something like sterilization is i think just making a welfare cap, so you can only get so much from social contributions.
I suppose it doesn't naturally destroy a country unless there is something like a power vaccuum.
But then people begin actually killing each other, when previously they had only hated each other
FUCK LIBERALS AND FUCK NIGGERS
I think you are right, but the division doesn't necessarily come from inequality and that inequality doesnt necessarily come from capitalism. The division can also be from things like religion or ethnic group within a country.
and about inequality- there is what i would call good inequality where the rich start earning more than the poor, but the poor are not worse off than they were before and the bad inequality as we see in africa/lkatin america etc, where the leading government or a monopolistic corporations owns the only productive resource in the country, uses it to make their lives good and ignores the rest of the populace as they starve
I would agree that to by more preferred... My scenario was an authoritarian system like socialism providing indefinitely. I am not a supporter of such an authoritarian government, but I am providing solutions to some of the issues with their system... People who cannot contribute to society leaching off the system.
>pointing out your denial of objective reality is an argument
The world doesn't stop and start by your biases. Leftism has killed more people than any other form of government. You deny this without providing any evidence. You have lost the argument.
Inequality is made worse by capitalism because investment comes from surplus wealth, and the people who had the surplus wealth come to own the means of production and thus the economy. This means they get a lot richer, while the advances in the productivity of the society are partly kept back from being enjoyed by the working class, because they have to pay 'rent' to the capitalists
Stop classifying things you don't like as "literally Stalin." You're full of shit, as is your special personal kind of "objective reality."
Ahh, do we have an advocate for furthering a government controlled by the proletariat?
More anti-corruption laws and measure should be taken to make sure that the wealthy cannot "buy" a democratic (or any form) of government.
So what would incentivize people to innovate if we were to "forcefully remove" income inequality and "forcefully maintain" the resulting income equality? Why would drive someone to want to put forth a ton of effort that could result in failure?
>investment comes from surplus wealth
but the way most people achieve surplus wealth(not talking about 0.00000001% but top 10%) is by having a superb education and the smarts to support it. Only about 30% of billionares(or millionaies i forgot exactly what it was) inherited their wealth, which would, i think strongly imply that natural intelligence and education are the man driving force in achieving surplus wealth.
>because they have to pay 'rent' to the capitalists
i dont get this at all.
You don't get to change what words mean. You cannot refute that leftism has caused more human misery than any other form of governance so you're trying any trick possible to stick to your bias.
...
You don't get to change what words mean or what people are either. I'm not advocating Stalinism or authoritarianism so stop shitposting.
>
The US has been at war for 93% of its existence... 222 years out of its 238 years of existence.
What do you suppose Murrica's death toll is?
America has been waging wars for 222 out of 238 years of its existence.
Capitalism at work
The communist manifesto is fairly short and was published in English. You can find it for free online. I believe it advocates a cult mentality between the two classes it describes. I think it is cancer, but understanding it will help understand what he means by "rent"... It is that most of society is employed by their upper class, and when their skills are not needed, they are discarded... Maybe I am misinterpreting what he is saying.
>You cannot refute that leftism has caused more human misery than any other form of governance so you're trying any trick possible to stick to your bias.
see:
222 years at war in america. What do u think the US death toll is for capitalism?
I don't think I'm a communist, but I have a crush on the USSR.
I don't want complete equality, just to socialise capital and rent . Then balance society further with taxes
>NATURAL intelligence and education
And good luck and opportunity...
Why do you get to charge working people rent and hold the value of their labour from them due to these things? What gives you the right to monopolise these resources and charge money for them?
Capital rent is money earned just for having money, and it exploits those who don't have it. It must be physically removed
>rent
Capital rent is the difference between the value a worker is producing and what the capitalist pays him. It is the property of the capitalist only because he owns the means of production
>not real communism ploy
That's another trick. Please for God's sake give me an argument why I should support the most evil form of governance in history. Or do you have any besides dogmatic utopian bullshit spouted 150 years ago by an abject failure?
>won't provide any evidence
>assumes that the US toll is bigger
>m-muh 100 gorillion
He will not divide us
>le not real communism meme
Once again, I'm not a Stalinist or full Marxist.
The US is responsible for 20 million deaths since wwII alone
>globalresearch.ca
1.5 million US citizens killed in conflicts
>en.wikipedia.org
theres over 20 million deaths caused by US I just cited with proofs in 5 mins
My figure doesnt count the endless black ops and secret wars that the us has been responsible for, such as bay of pigs.
Those numbers dont exist on paper as the US wont claim responsibility for it
But hey, 222 the years of wars the US has been involved is a long time to keep a death toll for, right? the 20 million I cited only goes back ~70 years
>Capital rent is the difference between the value a worker is producing and what the capitalist pays him.
well wait a minute, what if the business makes a loss? does the exploitative capitalist now suddenly become a philanthropist and pays the person more than he deserves?
>What gives you the right to monopolise these resources and charge money for them
Value of labor and profits are entirely different things, if i have a company that employs 100 people and i get 10% net profit can you point out exactly which laborer did i scam?
Furthermore you compeltely ignore risk the capitalist takes when running a company, if the business goes under he loses EVERYTHING while the workers only lose their joibs and not their assets. Do you not think taking this risk would imply they are entitled to some form of...profi...i mean compesation?
>Still far less and has produced a higher standard of living.
>European socialist states have to depend on the US to pay for their defense
>If I change what words mean I win
Only figuring the ~20million deaths that i cited in which the US has been directly responsible, which only accounts for 70 years of the 222 years that America has been at war. since 1776 puts America at number 3 on your list seen here:
Keep in mind, I only took 5 minutes to provide a death toll w/ citation for just the mot recent 70 years. There is still another 150 years that the US has been at war since 1776 that I didnt bother to find a death count for
...
Are we arguing about standard of living and defense costs?
Or are we arguing about a leftist state vs right state death toll?
I was arguing this:
I claim that the US is just as bad as any leftist state
now you want to argue defense costs and standard of living.
Are you out of on-topic arguments?
Fuck off to reddit you filthy communist kikes
every day until you stop being a lefty and learn the way of the redpill and swastika
LE LOOK AT ME MOM I'M LE TROLLING LE SHITLORD FAGGOT TUMBLR SJW KIKES ON LE INTERNET!!!!111!!! XXXXDDDDDD!!! I'M LE EBIN TROLLMASTER EDGY REACTIONARY ALPHA MALE WHITE MASTER RACE XXDDD I'M SAVING LE WHITE RACE FROM LE EURABIA AND LE FUCKING DUMBASS NIGGERS AND DEGENERATE FAGGOTS PUTTING AIDS IN LE FLUORIDE WATER FUNDED BY LE JEWS AND LE CULTURAL MARXIST KIKE BITCH FEMINAZI DYKES DESTROYING MUH PROUD NORDIC HERITAGE AND MUH FOUNDATIONS OF CIVILIZATION XXDDDD
This isn't /leftypol/...
...
What the fuck is that?
I'm very happy that America has been killing filthy sand niggers and leftist shitbags all over the world for 222 years.
You're just a contrarian pseudo intellectual that wouldn't last 10 minutes in your commie utopia. You're a dime a dozen, and someone needs to mine coal, so grab your shovel comrade :)
You have a lot of fucking nerve daring to speak when your faggots are outside rioting right now. Go slit your own throat, dude. Seriously.
...
Damn reddit, it's easy as fuck to trigger you...
>Are you out of on-topic arguments?
No one can refute that Leftism has failed in every application and caused the most human suffering of any form of governance. Am I triggering you by reminding you? Do you want to retreat into your fantasy land where you read Marx and pretend that you're an actual intellectual? Would you prefer that we all larp and pretend that a failed 1850s economic model could somehow apply at all to modern times?
I'm here to help you pull your head out of your ass.
Redpill me on the war of the roses. Who was the cool guy?
>implying all leftists are Marxists or Stalinists
your free to have your opinons and discuss your autism on Sup Forums but remember well and good that once your here you never leave.
this isnt a hugbox this is a hurtbox and the ride never ends.
*tips le edgy fedora in your general direction*