Let me get this straight:
Leftist americans want to be able to pay money each month to the government so they can get "free" healthcare within reasonable standards when they need it?
How is this different from paying money to a company of your own choosing so you can get "free" healthcare within reasonable standards when you need it?
The only case i can think of is when someone is born sick / deformed, but do my understanding those people already get compensation to cover that stuff right?
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Nobody around here ever said the left were smart.
Retards should be the burden of the families they're born in to. Wasting finite resources on "people" that will never accomplish anything is anti-survivalist and counterproductive to the advancement of humanity.
Once humans learn to evolve past empathy, then we'll truly thrive.
Even people who don't pay get it
>Leftist americans want to be able to pay money...
This was your misunderstanding. They don't want to pay for it themselves; they want someone else to pay for it.
No, they want well off people to pay more so the poor can subsidize their poor health caused by bad life choices.
People on the left wing have low self esteem and aren't ready to handle responsibility so they want the government to be their parents for their whole lives.
I'm not a proponent of government healthchare, but the Obamacare version is even worse because the middle class, the rich (yes, i'm defending them on principle), and virtually all contractor/1099 employees lose.
If you're a tremendous poorfag, or a single mother brood mare, you'll end up with pretty solid healthcare, while the people who actually pay for it have no access to it.
To top it off, the government is forcing you to pay money to a private company. This is a step beyond forcing you to pay taxes, because it's not going to some monolithic public slush fund...it's going to companies protected by government-mandated monopolies, and that's why premiums are skyrocketing while coverage is being dropped.
>Leftist americans want to be able to pay money each month to the government
KEK. They dont want to pay money. They want to stay unemployed and someone else to pay their bills.
>pay taxes relative to earnings so that everyone has access to ______
Woah. Such a revolutionary concept
>Let me get this straight:
>Leftist americans want to be able to pay money each month to the government so they can get "free" healthcare within reasonable standards when they need it?
No, they want others to pay for it
>expecting any sort or reasonable line of thought from leftists
this
Americans want to only pay for themselfs. They do not want to support others with their contributions. Even if the system in total ends up being cheaper.
Nobody is against people getting healthcare when they need it. We're against the incredibly inefficient and expensive socialized healthcare that we see everywhere else in the world. Whenever you make any product "free" this immediately increases the demand for that product, which then increases the price. This is why governments with socialized healthcare will always institute some arbitrary price cap on medical care, but this doesn't change the demand. This will always result in rationing and longer wait times. An example of this would be in Britain where something like 30% of treatable colon cancer patients are inoperable by the time it's their turn to get an operation, or you could even look in Sweden where doctors are told by the government to not waste precious resources on people who are 60 and older.
Like all socialist programs, they invariably hurt the people they're meant to people.
There has to be a cap somewhere. We can't spend unlimited resources to save every life. Absurd medical costs is the reason Healthcare insurance is so expensive. There's never going to be a way to "reform" insurance to lower premiums if the claims the insurance companies are paying are high.
t. 26 year old healthy male paying 600 dollars a month for insurance I never use
ITT: Nobody understands how health care worked before the ACA
fpbp
Okay, but the thing is, don't they realise that if they are avoiding paying the taxes the rich will do everything to sabotage that system whilst they go to private companies where they will even get better treatment?
The only reason it works in Sweden (and its dying now thanks to immigrants being exempt from all sorts of taxes for like 7+ years) was that EVERYONE paid, and people without work here get less and less compensation until the find work. In the end they don't even get anything other than a place to sleep and porrige 3 times a day (essentially).
The difference is the government isn't a business and by law will have to act within the interest of all citizens. It can also operate at a loss.
A private business is only interested in its own success and profitability.
Who's this kkkutie?
Spanish/italian(if i remember correctly) christian garm, not KKK.
You have to keep in mind that when leftist discuss taxes they are only looking at it from a perspective of equality, they're only concern is that people who have more are taxed higher rates. Because they have these "equality blinders," they don't even consider what the tax revenue, or total amount of money collected would look like under their proposed policies. Without external prodding they're incapable of even considering the idea that lower taxes would increase tax revenue.
>No, they want well off people to pay more so the poor can subsidize their poor health caused by bad life choices.
People born into poverty have made a bad choice? Because that's the most likely determiner if you will be poor later in life.
It's much more often a lack of economic opportunity, not a lack of ability.
It's some kind of Christian attire. Note the cuffs and brocade.
You are so right, a poor person cannot possible climb up the social ladder in america. I mean they would have to think for themselves and actually work, and that's just plain insanity aint it?
>It's much more often a lack of economic opportunity
I would disagree with this because I don't like this meme that poor people are stuck being poor. It's not true and leftists exploit this myth to support their awful policies that do the poor more harm than anything.
A University of Michigan study that tracked more than 50,000 Americans for three decades to discern the extent of economic mobility in America found that very few people are "stuck" at the bottom of the economic ladder; most rise quickly
-More than three-fourths of families in the bottom fifth of income distribution in 1975 had made their way up to the two highest income quintiles in 1991.
-The poorest families made the largest gains. Those who started in the bottom 20 percent in 1975 had an inflation-adjusted gain in annual income of 27,745 by 1991; those who started in the top 20 percent in 1975 also improved, but only by 4,354
-Less than 1 percent of the sample population remained in the bottom 20 percent during the 1975-1991 period
-More than half of the families who were in the bottom 20 percent in 1975 made it to a higher bracket within four years
Not every poor person can become wealthy in a capitalist system. Someone has to be losing money for you to make it.
>someone has to lose money for you to make it
wut? Money is just a way of exchanging value. Are you losing value when you buy food?
See, leftists are primaroly female.
Females always want free stuff, from others.
Females have no empirically dtectsble / profable inzelligence.
Females are fascists, they see others as their servants and slaves, as objects to exploit.
#leftismexplained
>Once humans learn to evolve past empathy, then we'll truly thrive.
This is dumb. Literal retards aren't the ones ruining America.
leftists don't want to pay the money, they want hard working american taxpayers with jobs to pay the money.
leftists want to sit around smoking weed and sucking each other's genitals while living on welfare and patreon donations.
Are you insane with the "losing money" thing?
Ignoring that madness, so there aren't apprenticeships in things like welding and carpenting over there?
If we moved to single payer we could spend 150-200% as much money per citizen as european healthcare systems currently do using just the money we already spend on medicaid/medicare - taxes wouldnt need to be raised at all, they could even potentially be lowered.
The appeal of national healthcare is that it gets the insane costs in control.
>apprenticeships
>welding
is this a thing? My friend became a welder after he got out of the navy, it seems like a decent gig but he didnt become an apprentice to anyone, he went to a trade school and paid into the military-industrial-academia complex the same as any womans studies leftist would have - the government paid for his because navy, the government pays for theirs because of any numerous mental illnesses they have. Dont be gay OR crazy and you have to pay yourself.
How does making something free, which increases demand, result in lower costs?
Its a thing here, and the joke being that its DEFINITIVELY a thing in america in alot of trade schools.
In Switzerland, not really a socialist country, we have to pay minimum 250$ / month to have basic health insurance. Every citizen must have one. Until 2500$ you have to pay for every medical bills, then 10% of the bills until you reach 700$. That's for the cheapest option.
No, but poorer people tend to be fatter and eat less healthy. They can still control their own health to a very large degree.
>Free
its not free, its paid for by taxes.
Taxes already pay for medicaid/medicare, 18% of our entire GDP worth.
The entire point of single payer healthcare is that it increases competition because companies have to compete for the national contract. It drives costs down radically.
Currently there are laws that prevent the government from actually bargaining for its own medicare/medicaid programs, else we would see the ridiculousness every time someone switched from some private insurance and noticed their medical bills cost 10% what they used to.
Medical is something that you really need a third party to haggle on your behalf for, because when you yourself need it, you are at a severe disadvantage. Group bargaining power is the point.
Single payer healthcare takes a ton of waste out of the current system. Healthcare is better under government control where profits are meaningless and deaths are bad publicity.
You never want your healthcare costs being a number on a balance sheet some ambitious insurance rep wants to erase to meet their bonus.
If only the group of people consuming the service could put their money where they want and have some sort of open marketplace that would lead to a form of group bargaining due to competition for these "consumers" from the companies.
Such a shame no such system exists right?
The law was introduced by a socialist minister and her cabinet and I still can't get why they did that as socialist because it was obvious it would end up the way it did aka you pay a fuckton per month and barely get anything covered.
A marketplace on insurance coverage is not going to cut medical costs. You need bargaining on the actual medical prices. For an insurance coverage market to work it would require the insurance companies to then try to bargain medical prices down. They do this already to varying degrees, but that does nothing to reduce the list price and so smaller companies with less bargaining power or individuals who want to pay for something their insurance doesn't cover are out of luck.
The issue is medical costs not insurance costs.
Yes, let's abondon the only trait that seperates us from animals.
Humans survived because we care for our sick and wounded.
>Nb4 muh intelligence.
Literally every time scientists have put forward something and said "humans have this and animals do not. This is what seperates us" It has always been proven animals have it.
She's been BLACKED already. Sorry lads.
Oh ofcourse! There's not like privately owned hospitals could bargain with cheaper prices with the insurance companies, because reasons amirite?
Because why would a hospital do that its not like they want insurance companies to use them to get more patients + more profit? That's just stupid business practice wanting to increase profit.
Not one of your cuck fetisch fantasy threads bong. Go shitpost somewhere else.
>every poor person ever could have become rich if only they applied themselves more
that's not how capitalism works friendo, just because one poor person in a million can become a millionaire, doesn't mean those other 999.999 people aren't still poor as fuck
the american dream is long dead, now we're just humping the remains
It's cheaper that way.
We have one of the most efficient system on the planet. Obama wanted to emualte that.
>We have one of the most efficient system on the planet.
Proofs?
lived in Mississippi for over 30 years and I've never seen a KKK outfit in real life
:(
Didn't say rich, merely not poor.
You might still be right though, but we do not know whether its possible or not because people like you scream on the big guy and claim its his fault you didn't raise your children right.
Job market for relatively well paid but low skill jobs (welders, road-technicians and carpenters are good example) are SCREAMING for more people in most of the western world as an example, after that market is saturated you can come back with that claim and I'll point at another job market ripe for new people.
It's because the government won't gouge you once you're injured for a profit. No one wants "free" healthcare, the majority of people who file for bankruptcy in the US is because of their healthcare bills. The government won't charge $250000 when you break your leg.
The difference is in the percentage of a person's income it costs. Furthermore, you don't understand at all how U.S. health insurance works. The amount you pay per doctor visit or procedure varies widely between different plans. Being on a cheap-to-pay-monthly plan can still end with you being bankrupt when you get cancer. A bunch of the people complaining about higher premiums under the ACA don't realize they've been forced to pay for better coverage instead of dirt cheap insurance that wasn't worth shit.
It's a well-known fact. In the West, USA's system is the shittiest. Obama tried to rectify that.
>I would disagree with this because I don't like this meme that poor people are stuck being poor. It's not true and leftists exploit this myth to support their awful policies that do the poor more harm than anything.
The University of Michigan has an excellent Poverty Center, and certainly there is upward mobility out of poverty, but social programs and safety nets are the reason th working poor are able to eventually rise to higher incomes and opportunities.
Wealth concentration, caused by income inequality, is parasitic slows the velocity of money in the economy. It also reduces the mobility of the working poor out of poverty by reducing their opportunities. Where a majority of working poor may have been able to rise quickly out of poverty, that rise has been slowed considerably since the Great Recession.
Non-meme explanation, which isn't something most of the supporters understand
The idea behind governmental healthcare is one of collective bargaining. 350 million unified people have a lot more negotiating power than 350 million individuals
doesn't that show us ahead?
Also for fucks sake use single payer, it's a dream unless you elect dirtbags like we have.
No they will bill your insurance company 250,000 and you'll pay 1000 if you're smart enough to be signed up.
Its the same in Sweden, hospitals bill the state for work done. (Since the state is essentially just an insurance in this matter). And we still pay fees, just small ones like the ones you do in america with insurance.
>SWEDEN calling me a cuck
Your wife is getting BLACKED as we speak Sven. How is the cuckshed?
Obama tried to get his health insurance buddies into a process that would net them a lot of money.
Not sure how that's rectifying stuff but okay. It's "noble" or some garbage.
>No, but poorer people tend to be fatter and eat less healthy
Food stamps should not be allowed to buy carbonated drinks.
>We have one of the most efficient system on the planet.
Yeah if you live in a rural kanton like Uri and/or never get sick.
Humans are animals subject to Natures law (s).
Careful there, kid. That edge is sharp.
Eww who wants to do blue collar work? That's for poor stupid racists. I'm going to get my degree is African gender studies and get a real job
>hurr fucking durr all markets are perfectly competitive
healthcare isn't an equal product, the vast majority of consumers know diddly dick about it, there isn't infinite supply, and there's excessive entry requirements.
Go read a economics text book you fucking retard.
>UK
>High
SHIGGY
The disabled are a YUGE demographic of non-contributing individuals.
I don't know, ask Europeans.
If only there was some open kind of marketplace where currency could be used as group bargaining since companies would want to entice these "consumers".
Shame such systems don't exists, and even if they did i mean why not just trust Big Brother to take of all your health decisions for you with noone else to go to?
Well memed my frame, sorry for triggering you le epic meme-master!
This is not that far from the truth sadly.
How much you wanna bet she took a big black load on her face at some point? She's been BLACKED
Ironically Hitler made retards the burden of the families they were born into...
because of the company's are shiting on the people by secretly speaking up the pricing.
They have a monopoly, all obama wanted is to brake up the monopoly and give the insurance fraud company's a competitor.
Retarded Americans stay retarded.
I'm going to act like a cock to every nigger I see today because of you.
Then go steal shit you fucking animal.
They argue that companies dont provide healthcare with reasonable standards at much higher prices.
This is why trump is interested in opening up the limitations on where healthcare can operate. (think of it like ISPs many insurance companies "own" large areas of states creating mini quasi-monopolies
Their other argument is that "it doesn't let people with a pre-existing condition get healthcare" Which is absolutely retarded, its called INSURANCE for a reason... you're not supposed to extort the company for money because you found out you had something, you're supposed to have the insurance BEFORE you find out you have something.
This is why insurance companies also offer free checkups and shit, because its in their best interest to keep you as healthy as possible, if you get really sick it costs them a lot more.
I can provide for myself. Stealing is niggertier.
My brother is retarded. Retards completely ruin the lives of everybody around them.
We really do need to just kill all retards, honestly. It might sound cruel, but in reality it would liberate the families that were unfortunate enough to have a defective child.
I'm talking about people getting born with diseases, really hard to get those people insurance was my point.
>Implying
Hey i'm just a fucking animal, why should i provide for myself when there's a bunch of fuckwits doing it for me? without empathy there is no society.
Think of all the goods and services wasted on him...what a shame.
mfw Sup Forumstards are against abortion
All animals instinctively provide for themselves though, don't rationalize your birth defects to me, I'm not your caseworker atbghe jobcenter or your parents.
Should be euthanized at birth. Problem solved forever. Life isn't a guaranteed right to anything in the Universe, one must fight for it. If you're not born with the tools to fight, you should be put down.
>Hahah guys why won't you let me through the gates
>Well you weren't providing to this society so we threw you out
>B-b-b-but you lack empathy why work together?
>If we pool our minds and resources we achieve a higher level of leasure with each person working less hours.
>But i want me gibs-me-thats??!?!?
>Hope you don't get raped to death by bears too soon.
Literally how society started ya doof. Even without empathy working as a group is beneficial.
It's called a public OPTION. Having a non-for-profit alterantive mean companies can't price gouge. You know how we have the post office and fedex. It's just like that.
Govt can set the prices of certain drugs and treatments. Private business loves rising costs because it means more money for them. Unfortunately there comes a breaking point, especially when it comes to unavoidable costs to health, in which people cannot pay their exorbitant medical bills. Having a public option allows the govt to step in a regulate the greed by subsidizing costs so that people can get treatment without going bankrupt.
We've seen what happens when insurance companies rule the market. They drive up costs and put people in financial ruin. Getting sick should not put you in desperate financial waters. We need a public option to protect us from heartless insurance companies who will look for any excuse to raise your deductible while doing all they can to avoid making payments.
Agree with that solution, eugenics in one way is the future, preferably without killing people at birth.
But we are talking the next ~50ish years here, no chance that killing kids will be that in style.
Maybe better screening and earlier (mandatory) abortions for kids with disabilites though.
>All companies raise prices together to artifically inflate prices
>New company crops up with lower prices
>Other companies all go bankrupt since all the patients moved to cheaper alternative
?
Mirin those digits IKEAbro.
You must be under 21 and have no job or never have used your insurance, truth is most poors have no access to other healthcare other than government social security systems, problem is that shit plain just doesn't work as intended no matter how many times it's reviewed and reworked
>paying a god damned insurance company for healthcare
Sure thing it's a good idea but the polices and policies of insurances are top kike tier, allow me to explain: those fuckers always strive to not cover whatever disease ypu have most chances of suffering, i.e. I have no social security (not like I cared government hospitals have shit resources even when they might have good personnel) so I pay a $120/month insurance which tops at $300k per hospitalization, since I have no cardiovascular disease risk I can get caediac inteventionism if I get a lethal arrhytmia that is unaquantanced HOWEVER since I'm a working middle aged man that is most likely to eat fast food and I have higher risk of gallstones or any billiary tract pathology insurance just doesn't cover that until the second year of quotes, average hospitalization, surgery and medical honoraries for that in beanerland is around let's see $2500 for hospital around $600 from drugs and $2000 more for endoscopic or laparoscopic surgery that I would need to cash out if I get a fucked up gallbladder before June 2017 that's worth 2 months of income truth is healthcare is more expensive than most can afford and I'm a general practitioner that has 1 year out of medschool with a lot of friends in several specialties that agree with me on that: most people don't fathom the cost of a severe or raee disease thet might need critical care manageraee and constant management by several doctors
>saying that keeping retards alive on other people's money is wasteful in every way possible, with an exception for muh feels, is now edgy
Amniocentesis screens for certain genetic anomalies but only a few. The blood screening machine from Gattaca...now THAT is something that will be a reality within my great grandchildrens lives, which is awesome.
>Paying 5000$ is unreasonable to save my life
You don't even have 2 months sallary saved up?
Yeah, hopefully "full" screens for atleast genetic defects will be up and running in 10-15 years.
Abortion is bad and against the will of God and nature, but it's ok when blacks and mothers of retard do it. Ironic isn't it? Most right-wingers have opinions that contradict their own narrative.
>"it doesn't let people with a pre-existing condition get healthcare
trump said he wants to keep that part
Then why isn't China doing so hot
Even if you acquire insurance with no preexisting pathology insurance companies will have Ifs and buts, always female between 12 and 45? Sure thing but we don't cover pregnancy complications, male with no important cardiovascular risk between ages 18 and 40? Of course but we don't cover billiary tract surgery and/or pancratitis, need traumathology and orthopedics review? Whew lad we can cover that expensive titanium alloy materials but fuck the bandages and casks you have to pay for them, insurance companies are made, run and operated by jews, when you contract an insurance a physician makes a clinical history and reviews relative risk for disease the diseases you're most likely to have in the future get either left out of coverage or have an adjusted tariff i.e. you're a lawyer with no CV risk it'll be covered UNTIL you turn 40 then you'll have to pay 75% of insurance deductable ammount of coverage so all in all the insurance will just pay to your cardiologist and some medicine hospitalizations and in-patient care is on you