Is there a logical...

is there a logical, ethical reason that the government should not give the same rights to transgender people as they do to everyone else?

>giving hormones to them is like liposuction for an anorexic person!
no, its really not
brain scans have shown transwomen have similar patters of brain tissue as ciswomen, as do transmen and cismen

>gender is a binary!
gender exists on a spectrum. since you all love to talk about chromosomes so much, consider this:
men can be born with XX chromosomes
women can be born with XY chromosomes
XXY is possible
XYY is possible
and being born with a single X chromosome is also possible

hormone replacement therapy is considered safe by medical doctors; they would not prescribe it if it weren't
arguments used to attempt to deny transpeople rights are based in pseudoscience

Other urls found in this thread:

newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome
isna.org/faq/y_chromosome
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome
youtube.com/watch?v=WPMDCJrRpT8
slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/17/the-toxoplasma-of-rage/
news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/09/101220-chimpanzees-play-nature-nurture-science-animals-evolution/
youtu.be/Bm9xXyw2f7g
nbcnews.com/id/40279043/ns/health-health_care/
npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90229789
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18194003
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3180619/
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

...

>here are facts
>however I will not link their source
you know what it means when you don't back up claims right?
they're not facts.

>rights
You want more free shit again.

>is there a logical, ethical reason that the government should not give the same rights to transgender people as they do to everyone else?

Yes, because it most likely is just a phase. Most transgenders are Kids/Young Adults who are going through a phase where they are just finding their sexuality and are indecisive.

>brain scans have shown transwomen have similar patters of brain tissue as ciswomen, as do transmen and cismen

Hormones are not damaging.

>gender exists on a spectrum. since you all love to talk about >chromosomes so much, consider this:
>men can be born with XX chromosomes
>women can be born with XY chromosomes
>XXY is possible
>XYY is possible
>and being born with a single X chromosome is also possible

Chromossomes don't work like that... They work in pairs of Two, and the only possible combinations are XX and XY. Chromosomes are PAIRS, not Triples.

Also, gender isn't a spectrum, either you have a Dick or a Pussy. Simple as that. Now sexuality is, you can be a man and like women, like both, like men, like nothing. And same for women. - But the culture surrounding it is pure cancer.

>hormone replacement therapy is considered safe by medical doctors; they would not prescribe it if it weren't

They are safe, yes, but that argument is awful. Why do they FREELY prescribe Opioids if it's so easy to get addicted to them?

>arguments used to attempt to deny transpeople rights are based in pseudoscience

You can't claim that we are the pseudoscientists when you don't even know how a chromosome work.

Please go back to your Bubble at tumblr, thank you.

Gender doesn't exist at all you're either biologically male or female

>brain scans have shown transwomen have similar patters of brain tissue as ciswomen, as do transmen and cismen

And do they do those brainscans for each an every person wanting to transition?

>Same rights

What rights are they lacking so far

Has nothing to do with rights. No right to take a bunch of other people's money for no real reason.

Your brain scans claim is pseudoscience. The brain and all variables surrounding it are not fully understood. Some may hypothesise that the tissue scans mean this or that, but it's not proven. A hypothesis doesn't mean anything despite what your otherwise-jobless university professor told you.

As for the safety argument, that's even more laughable. Pharmaceutical medications are prescribed all the time, and they're poorly understood and often unsafe.

Fuck off and cut yourself or something faggot.

brain scan differences:
newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/

you really haven't heard of having 3 sex chromosomes?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome
also
isna.org/faq/y_chromosome
>Does having a Y chromosome make someone a man?

You're wrong about the chromosomes. Having more or less than XX and XY gives you a serious disorder though.

Because transgender folks have a 40% suicide rate which is stupidly high if you compare it with depression suicide rate which is at 15%. How can people not see that people who want to switch gender are mentally ill ?

I'll only fund it if they give them a brain transplant instead.

>you can't fuck a 13 year old because they're incapable of consenting
>their brains haven't fulled developed and it's impossible for them to fully understand the ramifications of their actions


And on the other hand, you have leftists actively encouraging and enabling young confused children to undergo genital mutilation surgeries and hormone injections that will alter their bodies for the rest of their lives.

>is there a logical, ethical reason that the government should not give the same rights to transgender people as they do to everyone else?

They are mentally ill.

To treat gender dysphoria hormones are only considered as a last option, there are certainly levels that are tested for that you have to go through to get paid hormones. Most treatment just involves therapy and anti-depressants

As the leaf said, rights=free shit

See
Whenever someone is born with XXY or X or whatever the fuck, it's mistake, plain and simple. Are you going to tell me that Trisomy 21 is completely normal? No, because that's retarded. There is most certainly something wrong with transgender people but it's impossible to discuss without being labeled as Hitler

>Klinefelter Syndrome

This happens in one out of every 800 Males. And doesn't happen to females. Most transgenders don't actually have that.

Transgenderism isn't a protected class in burgerland

having a deep feeling that something is wrong with your body, and that your hormones are causing it to become disfigured is probably something that is hard to fully understand if you've never experienced it

gynocomastia is caused by estrogen in a male before the testicles fully begin to produce testosterone
slightly altering the hormone levels isn't going to cause long-term harm to a child
and no one wants kids to have genital surgery

that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I was talking about gender not simply being a binary

> is there a logical, ethical reason that the government should not abuse taxes and misuse funds?
All "government" money belongs to taxpayers, and government should act only according with interests of taxpayers. Taxpayers don't want to fund crazes of some snowflake piece of trash, thus its logical, ethical and moral to not spend any public money on it.
If special snowflake wants gender change, it should go fucking work and earn money for it.

my cousin has klinefelters, this isnt the same shit.

/lgbt/ cuck pls leave

Same rights, sure, but they're still mentally ill.

Now let me tell you about hormone replacement therapy. You could develop a behavioral therapy for these folks, you could study what their brain does and prescribe appropriate medication, but that requires time and effort. One psychiatrists don't want to waste on such minuscule problems. So if they give them replacement hormones, they're happy to "transition" and have less problems in general. This was a psychiatrist doesn't have to waste as much time on a gay ass dude who wants to be a womyn.

It's like that in every single medical department. Least amount of effort and money to ensure your patients doesn't die and doesn't waste your time further.

"Transwomen"

Chromosomes != Gender dysphoria
Also I doubt that's true that your cousin has that

>fucking with hormone levels in a developing body

yeah, no harm can possibly come from that.

I have a great treatment in mind for trans "people"

Lolbertarian here. People can do what they want to their own bodies and act how they want, but shouldnt expect others to play along.

>Does having a Y chromosome make someone a man?
Yes. You answered your own shitty point. XXY is a male. X is a female. This is attested in their appearance, behaviour etc. and is how the medical establishment defines it in these very rare cases.

he does. and hes a pretty normal kid, except some social awkwardness. Stop trying to make up random shit to get your way faggot.

Wasted electricity, Mike "Deus Volt" Pence.
Hormones are relatively cheap and they'll kill themselves sooner or later, anyway.

women can be born with a Y chromosome
that was the title of the article
another:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome
>All affected individuals are phenotypically female; they develop a normal female habitus, despite the presence of a Y chromosome

what is really sad is that most transgender people would actually go through that kind of treatment if it worked
hormone replacement is the only kind of therapy that is able to stop dysphoria from increasing with time

How does he deal with the rashes? Is the cream he use foritfied or un fortified ?

You do get the same rights as mentally disabled individuals, im sure you could get a gibmedats check and free health care and therapy.

You didn't answer my question.

hormones are fun. pls dick me pol

Wrong, Gender is a social construct. Problem is gender roles start to flip in a feminist ruled society.

Gender roles often flip in oppressive situations like in prison, on a boat mainly loaded with a single sex. This is why you see a lot of homosexual behavior in those situations as some males dawn the womenly role.

It's always been this way. But its never been as mainstream as it is now. Its never been supported so heavily with drugs as it is now. Feminism is a cancer, denying nature is a cancer.

they can have rights, but if you have a dick go in the mens room like every other dude in america

This is the reason right here, it just makes them complete bottom feeding sluts

he doesnt get rashes. atleast thats what my uncle told me. the only major thing he has is micropenis and the most obvious symptoms like low sperm count and no body hair. and the social awkwardness. I always thought he just had autism but never asked until a few months ago.

shouldnt you be getting blacked right now?

You're why no one likes you bugchasing freaks. Learn some self respect.

pretty much.

does anyone actually care about these debates. I just want a nerd boy inside me.

does anyone have the "screams in agony" jpeg of that woman at the trump inaug

kill yourself

do you want your mouth fucked?

no
but it seems strange that someone would be driven to choose to transition if something in them wasn't driving them to do it
I know some people like to think people will transition because its "cool" but in reality being transgender is a horrible struggle that no one would go through voluntarily
it involves a lot of sadness and self-doubt

thats a dangerous situation for transwomen because it instantly announces to everyone in the room that they're trans
also keep in mind that means you're going to be using the urinal next to a tranny

you're really undermining everything I'm trying to say desu

Kik?

...

> Here, buy some shit you never thought of needing until the msm pushed it onto you like peer pressure at X-mas small child. If you live in the UK a labour party stooge will force your parents to buy you this shit or take you away from them. "Textbook facism" we own all humans and will do whatever we like with them.

Even lefties recognize the existence of transtrenders. Attention-starved roasties say they're men for a week, cut their hair short, and completely destroy their relationships with their families because it's new and interesting.

youtube.com/watch?v=WPMDCJrRpT8

>no

Other than behavioural/psychological tests, what other testing is done?

ITT: closet faggots normalize a mental disorder

You sick fucking monsters.

give me yours.
lets see your bewbs

If you're over the age of 18 you should be able to do to yourself whatever you want so long as it doesn't interfere with the rest of us, so dosing yourself with tranny elixir who gives a fuck.

Nobody ever cared about tranny's until faggots with beards put on a dress demanded to get access to women's public bathrooms. This triggers everybody because they know some Ted Bundy weirdo is just going to slap on lipstick and a skirt in order to get access to young girls in an unrecorded/no security area.

Tranny's should have become their own activist group instead of jumping into bed with the marxist weirdoes of the LGBBq+ movement because they do these kinds of bullshit 'awareness' shenanigans slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/17/the-toxoplasma-of-rage/

sorry i forgot you but of course

> transgenders are just as normal as these people with serious disabilities!

Fill in the blank: Triple Chromosomes are to Transgenders as Serious Disorders are to ________

>XXY is possible
>XYY is possible
>and being born with a single X chromosome is also possible
And guess what, the people who want hormones most often have perfectly normal XY chromosomes.

news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/09/101220-chimpanzees-play-nature-nurture-science-animals-evolution/

youtu.be/Bm9xXyw2f7g

Nope. No one disagrees that they should have the same rights, they just don't deserve more rights.

Trans hormones/etc. don't fall under rights, just cosmetic treatment.

Gender roles are socially constructed, but gender itself is a very real thing not made up by us

Gender roles aren't socially constructed, they formed out of biological differences for millions of years to reach the optimal survival outcomes. Its basically denying underlying behavior.

no, the categories of gender a construct. they are aspects of culture. l2 sociology

the way we relate to our bodies is a very real thing not made up by us

Astute observation, leaf

>these people on the fringe of biology who cannot reproduce are just as viable as 99.9999% of all people who don't commit suicide at a rate of 50% and can reproduce

k. keep me posted

Transsexuals are four times more likely than the average person to be infected with HIV. Source: nbcnews.com/id/40279043/ns/health-health_care/

About 88% of children who have gender dysphoria do not hold those beliefs when they grow older. Source: npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90229789

Only 12% of boys who believe they are transsexuals still believe so when they are older. Source: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18194003

MRI scans indicate that straight MtF transsexuals are men aroused by the thought of possessing female genitalia.
And that gay MTF transexuals have the same brain structures as gay men
Source: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3180619/

41% of transsexuals have tried and failed to commit suicide. Source: nbcnews.com/id/40279043/ns/health-health_care/

Transsexuals who undergo sex reassignment surgery are more likely to commit suicide. Source: ://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

It's not even treatment, it's body modification like somebody going to get a bunch of tattoos or piercings done. "Bruh, implant these horns in my head and then fork my tongue and pierce my anus" that's essentially what it is, people who want to change their bodies (modification) for personal preference.

The whole pseudoscience that they are actually a different gender is clearly nonsense. When transgenderism is framed in body mod context then it becomes much more acceptable. You choose to be a tranny so nobody gives a fuck just like they don't care about goth chicks being covered in shitty tattoos and wearing too much eye makeup.

The problem is people make insane claims they really are women and the government should pay for their "treatment".

you're definitely right that transtrenders exist in some form but very few of them start getting testosterone shots
transtrenders will not take hormones was what I was more trying to say

outside of a psychologist recommendation, there isn't any other testing done
but very very few people regret transition and report much higher satisfaction with life, which makes sense given that it is trans people who naturally will seek out transition

>lets see your bewbs
no

honestly most tranny dicks can barely get hard (if they even still have one) and half have no interest in women anyway
trannies have been using the same bathroom as their true sex for a long time and ciswomen have not been in danger

That proves nothing

I have a tranny friend who did the hormone therapy early, looks like a qt grill now but you can still tell if you pay attention to subtle clues.

It's so hard being his friend, because if he's not constantly flirting with me and trying to get me to fuck him, he's super depressed and wants a shoulder to cry on. That's his only two emotions.

Sometimes I feel bad for him that he went through with the transition, but then I remember he's one of those liberal chucklefucks who wants rights to women's bathrooms and supported Bernie.

Don't you have a toilet to unclog?

>enabling mental illness
isn't that just ebin

>man doesn't feel comfortable in his body and wants to be a woman
here you go have some horomoes

>Woman doesn't feel comfortable in her body and wants to become a man
here you go have some horomones

>14 year old stacy wants to get fucked by every chad in her school without getting preggers
here you go have some horomoes

>Lonely autistic man doesn't feel comfortable in his body and wants to be strong and shredded
No we can't give you testosterone unless your levels are crazy low!!!!!

explain this

Too many retards on the planet.

Not everyone is meant to breed, or is worthy to do so. Some people are defective.

Let them self-select to become eunuchs and spinsters. It's for the good of humanity, ultimately.

It's a way to reconcile eugenics with free will. Media pushes it as a form of 'malign encouragement'.

Much like abortion, vaccines, contaminated food, and so forth...

The point here is that you don't HAVE to do it. You have a choice.

The worthy will make the right choice.

your argument is gay and possibly mentally ill.

Transgender people aren't people

They're inbetween people technically, neither being fully male or female. So therefore they're not a full person, and therefore not a person

An entire fucking college of pediatricians says that giving this crap to kids is a terrible idea. As for adults, let them fucking pay for it. The government has no obligation to make you feel better.

>outside of a psychologist recommendation, there isn't any other testing done

That is my problem. Psychological and behavioural testing is flawed and can be 'cheated' by the subject, either consciously or subconsciously.

Secondly, if gender is a social construct, then the status of a subject's genitals and hormones et al are not of importance. You can be a male with a vagina. You can be a female with a penis. You can be genderfluid with either.

Body modification AKA transitioning is not a rights issue. It is a personal choice that involves dangerous and life changing surgeries and treatments and is noted to INCREASE suicide rates and occurrences of mental illnesses.

I'm sorry, but the whole foundation of 'transgender rights' is a cluster fuck and framed so terribly. It is multiple arguments wrapped into one and barley any have any relevance to 'rights'.

...

>having a deep feeling that something is wrong with your body, and that your hormones are causing it to become disfigured is probably something that is hard to fully understand if you've never experienced it
so If someone feels that their arm is not theirs and want's it cut off is not insane?

I would have caved and smashed his boipussy by now, you have some good self control man.

Gender not being binary based on having an additional or missing Chromosome.
So i assume downs-Syndrome is now a new gender.

I got one for you: primum non nocere. The oath all medical professionals supposedly take when they enter their profession.

>FIRST, DO NO HARM

What does that mean in relation to giving hormone treatments? It's quite simple, hormone treatments almost always causes more harm than good. This is due to the fact that it does not solve the medical issue, it only exarcerbates it. People don't want to admit it, but transgenderism is a mental illness. It's a sickness of the brain that needs to be treated as such. Let's take for example schizophrenia, what is the common practice to treat someone who sees or hears something that isn't there? Do we:

A. Combine medicine with psychotherapy to convince the patient that what he perceives as real to not exist. The patient goes on to have a life of relative normalcy.
B. Tell the patient what he sees/hears is reality and provide him with medicine that worsens the condition, the patient goes insane.

Our problem is we choose option B for inane things like someone who believes they are a woman despite being biologically male. We enable these delusions they have about themselves, something that every psychiatrist would abhor if it weren't for "muh feelings" taking precedence. And you know why I know it only harms these people? Take a look at suicide rates for trannies and you'll have your answer. Soon after they complete their transition do they realize the grave mistake they made. They realize that it was all for naught, society won't accept them; even moreso know that they disfigured themselves with the assistance of medical professionals. Even if society did accept them they'd still suffer from the disease that tells them they're the opposite sex.

We are harming people with hormone treatments because they do not solve the problem, they only worsen it. It goes against their oath to perform this "treatment", doctors are causing harm to their patients which makes it logically and ethically unsound.

Bullets are more expedient

>People who are born sterile are not people technically, not having the same functions as the typical male or female. So they're not a full person, and therefore not a person.

That logic can be used for almost any group if you try to stretch it enough.

the point I was making is that gender and sex characteristics is a spectrum not a binary

there is no other treament

the group you're talking about is a conservative political-action group
the actual medical and psychological community does not agree

personally I don't know where I stand about gender being a social construct. in some ways it is, but in some ways it certainly isn't...changing your hormones causes changes is thoughts, feelings, and actions so its certainly biological to a certain extent
as far as evaluations being consciously or subconsciously cheated, I again just don't see why this would happen to a cisgendered person

There's no logical reason to enable mentally ill people and help them mutilate their own bodies.

Why even pretend to be her friend if you just think this about her and talk shit behind her back?

>being transgender is a horrible struggle that no one would go through voluntarily
it involves a lot of sadness and self-doubt
These people are full of sadness and self-doubt and then pigeonhole their problems on being born the wrong gender.
I know a trans MtF, who is now fully operated, axe wound and all. Still batshit crazy and suicidal.

And I'm not telling you the reaction when me and a couple other biological females were talking about periods and babies. Ended up crying because we were insensitive.

Even if they transition they will never be women. They aren't born one, they don't know what it's like to be one, half of the time they aren't passing well, their sweat gives them away and they stay riddled with anxiety issues, panic attacks and the like. I'm not sure transitioning helps all that much.

The main question I am asking myself is why everyone and their cat now has a mental disorder. Their amount is growing. You won't tell me that it's purely because it gets diagnosed better. It's like ADD, something in the environment is making more people craycray than before.

either a y chromosone functionally alters an X or it doesnt

thats only two states bud

>changing your hormones causes changes is thoughts, feelings, and actions
oh shit you're really close to a redpill here!!
see you tomorrow

>there is no other treatment
what about the treatment other mental illnesses get? dressing them in straightjackets and locking them up seems fine

_He_ is still a good kid, I grew up with him, we hung out plenty of times and we still hang out. Being a friend doesn't mean sucking their dick and not recognizing their flaws. I have tons of liberal friends that I find insufferable at times but I'd still invite over for a drink or two.

Oh god thanks based scientific bro.

That's the quieter and more expensive route. It still completely destroys a human being --- presumably the way hormones do -- but then they have to be sustained by the institution.
t. psych grad student

Transgender citizens have the same rights as every other human citizen of this country.

But, I refuse to pay for their mutilation.

Presently, we cannot change XY to XX and vice-versa.

>It's a sickness of the brain that needs to be treated as such
transgender people report significantly higher satisfaction with life after beginning hormone replacement
there is nothing better to solve the problem

>These people are full of sadness and self-doubt and then pigeonhole their problems on being born the wrong gender
that is just simply untrue. I can see why you may think that if you've never experienced dysphoria, but its not accurate
also going on hormones makes you smell like a female (less sweat and different odor)

thanks for not misgendering

>personally I don't know where I stand about gender being a social construct. in some ways it is, but in some ways it certainly isn't...changing your hormones causes changes is thoughts, feelings, and actions so its certainly biological to a certain extent

Fine, we'll put that to the side, even though I find it interesting to note that you are having a conversation on a topic DEEPLY related to gender, while presumably not being able to accurately define or defend your position on it (which implies there are multiple positions that could be taken, which is a detraction from your other arguments where you imply there isn't).

>as far as evaluations being consciously or subconsciously cheated, I again just don't see why this would happen to a cisgendered person.

Because people, as a whole, are utterly flawed and different in a myriad of different ways. Why does a man wake up after 30 years of happy marriage and kill his wife and kids before offing himself? Why do people support one sports team with their all, but bitterly deride another? Why do people suffer from mental illness?

Take a theoretical, and tell me if it sounds at all valid. Someone is miserable. Their life sucks. They are more masculine/feminine than is normal for their gender. They have been bullied because of it. They are a social outcast. They find a group of people online that are accepting. These people tell them that they may be transgendered. The diagnosis offers a reason for their woes, and transitioning offers a solution. They read more. They research, study, while already being inclined to believe they are transgendered because it 'feels right'. They go for their psych evals. They know what to say and how to say it, because they have researched it. They believe they are transgendered. They never knowingly tell a lie. 5 years later, after transitioning they don't like the changes they had, they thought it would solve everything. It made most things worse. They kill themselves.