Question for Catholics:
How do you respond to evangelicals when they claim that Grace is a "free gift" that you can't earn and then start rattling off bible verses?
I have basically been non-religious for years but recently have been going to mass. I told my dad thinking he would be glad to hear it and he sperged out on me because YOU CANT EARN YOUR WAY TO HEAVEN! SAVED THROUGH FAITH! I am new to this so I was pretty much dumbfounded and had nothing to say
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am catholic. i really don't give a fuck. just love and accept jesus. the rest will work out.
being religious and not giving a fuck about what is true seem to go hand in hand.
jesus is truth. all of the different rituals don't really matter in the grand scheme.
good goy
You americans crack me up, first world but religious.
What next, you gonna elect Donald fucking Trump as president?
oh wait...
I see good works as putting your money where your mouth is.
You can profess to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and claim salvation all you want, but where is the proof if you don't actually put your back into it and help your brothers and sisters in Christ?
Christ was willing to be crucified to save us, the martyrs were willing to give up their lives before denying their faith. What the fuck is your average Christian (cath, prod, ortho, whatever) willing to give up?
Anyway, I usually just let them rattle off whatever they want and put my faith in two millennia of tradition, study, and meditation rather than some autistic German fanfic.
Well your dad shouldn't have a problem with you being Catholic because, according to him, you're saved through faith alone.
I Just say trying to separate faith from good works is erroneous and that just believing things about "Jesus Christ like that he was crucified for our sins, died, buried and rose again" or some variant of that, is not really having faith IN him.
>I see good works as putting your money where your mouth is
this. Faith alone is something that doesn't transform the reality according to the Gospels and it would imply they were written only for us to read them, and that's it. Should ideas be transformed into reality?
the crux of the issue is a series of seemingly contradictory passages in the bible which imply you can both "never" lose salvation AND that you can lose salvation through your actions.
This is one of many issues where Baptists and Catholics REALLY can get into serious arguments. Baptists believe once saved you can never lose salvation. The Catholics obviously believe differently.
After studying the issue for a long time I think the Baptist view is more in line with the overarching themes and lesson in the bible. The baptist position also, if understood in a certain way isn't contradictory to the catholic passages supporting thier position. Meanwhile if you support the catholic stance on salvation, you will be supporting a stance that directly conflicts with other passages in the bible.
The key to reconciling these two positions, and the proof that the Baptists probably are right, lay in the concept of salvation itself. The key is "are you saved?" The Baptist position holds up if you believe there are people who "think" they are saved who are not actually saved.
The key to salvation is fidelity to god. If you think of fidelity as you would a knight swearing loyalty to a king, would you believe that was an honest oath if made in the hopes of getting something from that king? how about if they then slept with the king's wife and stole from him? Obviously that oath wasn't given in good faith. It was made by someone with a lie deep in their heart. They never were going to remain faithful to that liege.
The same could be said of salvation. If someone has gained salvation with no intention of doing god's will in this world, are they saved? I would argue they are not. It's not that they lost salvation through their wicked actions, only that their lack of salvation is exposed through their works.
This is why the Baptist position holds up under biblical examination.
You are not saved by faith OR works alone. You are saved by GRACE alone. In other words, only God's grace can save you because we are all imperfect. Also, read James 2:14-26. This essentially refutes all of protestantism. Faith alone is a myth. Catholicism is the way.
lol please leave
I suppose his argument if he had a real one was that you aren't saved through obligations. He thinks the Church tells people to worship as an obligation while Protestants do it out of thankfulness
Question for catholics
How do you compound diddling kids and homosexuality being an abomination?
Oh no, did i disagree with you and you had to say something but had nothing better to say?
Am i right or am i right?
Why can't it be obligation and thankfulness? A basic tenet of catholicism is that we do not boast or show off what we do. We go to church and fast on Fridays during lent out of love for God, not to show people, "oh look at me, I'm so holy."
Reminder CTR is alive and well
There's a reason why the church said the priest should be the one to read and interpret God's word. Not having a toothless fuck out there handling snakes
Roman Catholic here.
So the 10 commandments are just recommendations? You can get into heaven if you're a complete dick as long as you have faith? Does that honestly make sense to you?
If heaven is real, it's like Harvard or Yale. Nearly impossible to get in. That doesn't mean you go straight to hell if you're not good enough- that's what purgatory is for.
I have no idea why protestants dwell on the whole "faith" portion, and act like it's all that matters.
Roman Catholicism, is Christianity in its fullest. Protestantism, (All 30 billion different denominations) cherry picks things to satisfy their own personal ideologies.
the rituals are part of eternal return and are probably the most important part
Envangelicals are some of the lowest tier brains in any church. Who cares. Ask your dad why evangelicals are hardcore israeli cocksuckers, pro open borders, pro refugees?
Ask yourself, why am I following a second wave abrahamic cult, designed to encourage multiculturalist belief in the host population?
If you just pay lip service to believing in Christ but you don't actually try to follow him then in what sense do you have genuine faith?
God's grace is unearned, but you do need to be sincere in your efforts to follow Him for him to choose to bestow it upon you (which He is under no obligation to do).
by anally torturing people in the name of jesus christ.
Catholicism is pagan corpse worship. and arrogance. Lent is exactly designed to show people "oh look at me, I'm so holy"
>No replies
Protestants BTFO forever?
/thread over
No, lent is certainly used in that way by pretend catholics, but that is not lent's intent. For example, I have taught my children the tradition of giving up something as a sacrifice during lent, but have also taught them not to tell anyone about it - not even me. That is between them and God.
>Catholicism is pagan corpse worship. and arrogance. Lent is exactly designed to show people "oh look at me, I'm so holy"
No.
...
Okay hardcore Catholics, explain these things to me so I can regain faith in the Vatican.
>Pedophilia and Homosexuality in the upper echelons of the Papacy
>Extremely secular changes made by the Second Vatican Council
>Pope Francis in general
Former Protestant converting to Catholicism. Protestants have this problem with something called proof-texting as in referencing individual pieces of Scripture without taking into consideration the entirety of salvation history. Atheists ironically have the same problem and is why they see so many "contridictions".
In James there is a verse "Faith without works is dead". Salvation is a free gift and faith is necessary for Heaven however if your faith does not breed good fruit Christ states you will be thrown into the fire. You need to take the entirety of Scripture into account. I would suggest talking to your Priest about these questions, fair warning most Priests are terrible at answering this stuff though.
(side note don't take the Eucharist unless you are confirmed Catholic and gone to confession within a year of receiving)
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You tell them the truth which is a non-sequitur: Protestants are to blame for (((modern times))). Let's think about this, the Anglos came up with all these theories, during the time the Jews were expelled, about how they needed to welcome the Jews back to England and covert them to begin the process that was the apocalypse. Many church fathers were writing on these matters without having ever actually met a Jewish person. Around the same time Puritans, who shared much of this theory, left for the new world and settled there. Allowing the Jews to enter England once more quickly red pilled the Protestants living there who realized the Jewish people were quite happy in their beliefs and for the most part, excepting a few upstarts who converted for political reasons but still practiced Judaism at home, were unconvertable. The puritans who left before this happened, however, never tasted that red-pill and have always included Jewish conversion as a central tenet of their eschatology. Fast forward a few hundred years and we have 'Judeo-Christian' values as the hallmark of American evangelism. Evangelicals are the biggest supporters of Israel outside of religious and nonreligious Jewish people. Many evangelical groups are literally bankrolled by lobbys and organizations with political affiliations. Not that any of this exempts the Catholic Church but everything is muddled when it comes to organized religion.
no replies?
>Catholics BTFO forever?
Hardcore Catholic who's planning on entering a seminary soon, here.
>Pedophilia and Homosexuality in the upper echelons of the Papacy
It happens with all organizations (Boy Scouts for example), but is greatly exaggerated in Catholicism. Why do you seldom hear of Jewish rabbi's sexually abusing children? Because it goes against the left's anti-Catholic agenda, and would be deemed anti-semitic. It's largely anti-Catholic propaganda (which is somehow acceptable to them) by liberals, atheists, and the Jew run media.
>Extremely secular changes made by the Second Vatican Council
Most Catholics don't like this. But, with Catholicism, it's all or nothing. And if you really hate the changes that much, just go find a church nearby that preforms the Tridentine mass (Pre Vatican II Latin Mass). Which by the way, are fairly easy to find.
>Pope Francis in general
Ex Cathedra (papal infallibility) only applies to matters of faith, regarding the church's teaching with the doctrine and sacraments. You can still have differing opinions with Pope Francis, and not have it contradict your faith.
>Implying torturing heretics is a bad thing
>>Pedophilia and Homosexuality in the upper echelons of the Papacy
youtube.com
>>Extremely secular changes made by the Second Vatican Council
trueorfalsepope.com
>>Pope Francis in general
Doesn't matter how much of a shitty Pope he is, he will die sooner or later. He hasn't changed dogma yet. The traditionalists in the Church are keeping him at bay with the dubia.
>implying your mortality left
most (((tortures))) are just prottie and enlightenments propaganda.
I suggest you watch this for a thourough point of view:
youtube.com
This.
The theological "No True Scotsman" argument.
...
In your Bible are saying, "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" or "Peter, you are a stone and I will found this business on you, I do not know what it is And let Hell prevail for 1500 years, a period that I'm going to leave my church forsaken, and then after that time I'm going to send a mentally ill alcoholic who's going to commit suicide and then he's going to found my true church which will later be subdivided into more than 30 thousand with each one being able to choose its truth since it is relative and hey I do not care about right or wrong "?
lol no, baptists are one of the most unbiblical and heretical sect
spoken like a true idol worshiping heathan.
>worshippers of Christ are idol worshipping heathens
...
I drink.
grace is an intangible, theological concept, like virtue, or a soul.
You can't debate shit like that no more than you can argue over how many angles can dance on the head of a pin.
I will say the idea that you have to "earn" grace through good acts will probably stop believers from becoming smug assholes who do nothing but quote Bible verses all day, and get them into charities and maybe make them a little more humble.
Hell is going to be full of you and your kind, Rabbi.
we're not perfect, we have our problems, but at least we are his children and are always lifted up in the end, whereas you are cut from the Body of Christ and therefore he doesn't know you. Matthew 7:21