Why does communism exist? The more I think about it the less it makes sense to me. Can't go on lefty/pol/ to talk about it because I just got banned for saying anything against it. Their reaction was something like >this guy just wants to argue and won't submit to our ideology without any debate >fuck him
Let's discuss why it is an unnatural system in this thread. It is important at this time as many of antifa see themselves as communist or leftist anarchist. Best to know your enemy Sup Forums know it well.
I've been to leftypol a few times. They are literally obsessed with Sup Forums and base a huge portion of their ideological framework on being the opposite of whatever Sup Forums thinks, no matter how retarded the collective narrative ends up being.
Most of them either don't have the capacity to understand or consciously refuse to understand the idea of empirical evidence. Whenever you show them data that goes contrary to their well established opinion that communism is natural law, they'll simply cite personal anecdotes or attempt to attack the legitimacy of things like the scientific method in favor of what they "feel" is true based on the propaganda they regularly consume. This is if you aren't permabanned for having a dissenting opinion by the perpetually assblasted mods, first.
>pic related After posting this once I got a plethora of responses like: >"You're ignoring other factors like level of exploitation" >"I don't see the source as trustworthy" >"This data was obviously faked by biased right wingers" >"Poverty isn't measured in dollars, it's measured in equality" etc.
It truly is a shithole and it makes me appreciate this place a lot more.
Levi Gonzalez
Of course to you it doesn't make sense, you are probably a fat lard capitalist pig. You hate sharing
Jackson Howard
I share with my family and friends pal :3 I'm a good person.
David Perez
>The more I think about it the less it makes sense to me. Because it doesn't make sense, empirical evidence refutes every part of Marxism. It's based entirely on feelings and the mad ramblings of a professional financial parasite.
In many ways it's more of a religion than a political theory. It's even got the same "do as I say, not as I do" thing going on: God tells us not to kill, but spends the entire Old Testament murdering the shit out of millions of people for no discernable reason. Marx tells us to stop oppressing the proletariat, but makes his living by mooching money off his business-owning friends and family, then rapes his indentured house-servant and throws her out on the street because he doesn't want to take responsibility for his rape baby.
Levi Ortiz
Not an argument
William Cooper
>unnatural system
What did he mean by this?
Charles Fisher
>c-communism doesn't work g-guys Yet they ignore places where it worked
Thomas Williams
> pic Bullshit. Commies clearly state > when idea is in the minds of the masses it becomes reality Communism has been tried. As any other ideology, that offers people to refute the democracy, it`s a harmful ideology of foreign collaborators and enemy influence agents. Socialists are mostly serving the anglo. All socialists, including nationalistic ones.
Luis White
I see no arguments in this thread
Connor Brooks
It started out as a self masturbatory thought exercise for a couple of college-age stoner types and accidentally butterflied outward. Do you know why far left people spend so much time thinking about rhetoric and tone of voice? Because it's not supposed to make sense, it's supposed to tap into a primal anger in certain minority groups and desperate people living in poverty.
Jaxon Parker
such as...
Kevin Cruz
Clearly it worked on his mother.
Cooper Ward
Seychelles, Cuba, Paris Commune, Free territories, Nagys Hungary do you want me to go on?
Jason Cooper
Not an argument convict :^)
Lincoln Hill
Without price signals and free enterprise, new products and services cannot easily come into existence to meet the needs and desires of consumers. In a communist system, you would have to submit and application or request to the committee that controls production, or to call for a vote on it. If the majority of people, or those in power, do not like your product idea, you don't get it. Products and services would be excruciatingly utilitarian, as well. If you like cars and want to drive a well-designed well-made car, too bad. The resources that could go into that would be better served for X purpose. You get to drive the Trabant like everyone else, comrade.
>Cuba Yes, because a sharp decrease in every quality of life and human rights statistic after the implementation of Communism clearly indicates a rousing success.
Caleb Flores
Yeah, I see. My bad, it really worked because everyone is poor as shit. Let's go home boys, communism works!
Ayden Williams
For u Not an argument
James Morris
Kek
Joseph Howard
>B-but my car is the same >wtf I hate communism now Hmmmm makes one ponder
Nolan Thomas
But they weren't poor as shit
James Ramirez
>why does communism exist? Why do "Nigerian princes" still manage to rip people off, user? Because as long as there are people on earth there's always going to be people who are dumb enough to get suckered in by the call of free shit, no matter how far fetched it is.
Robert Sullivan
No it's about worker control of society instead of just a small percentage of people dictating what we can and can't do only libtards think of just free shit
Evan Nguyen
Yes, I hate communism. I might have to drive a car that I hate, work a job that I hate, live in a place that I hate, eat food that I hate, and I might hate every other aspect of my life because my life is not under my control - it's under the control of commissars and People's Councils.
Daniel Moore
Go back to your plantation quarters, Tyrone.
Asher Mitchell
>Authoritarian communism is the only type that exists Google murray bookchin
Matthew Campbell
Australia strikes again.
Cameron Barnes
How can any form of communism be anything but authoritarian? What if members of the community don't want to contribute or disagree with the direction? What do you do then?
Cameron Barnes
>shitty aussie """""banter""""" >funny Made me think
Evan Rogers
If it isn't authoritarian then it is compatible with right-wing libertarianism, and there is no problem.
Jeremiah Carter
Anarcho/libertarian gommunism isn't >abolishing things that lolbertarians like >right wing
Parker Clark
How is "abolishing" anything not authoritarian? What if a community member wants to take part in an "abolished" activity?
Michael Roberts
humans as a whole are stupid
Connor Williams
Yeah, they weren't till commies happened. It's a shit ideology that tricks the poor and stagnates society. Believe it or not, it's possible to escape poverty. My family used to be poor then they worked their ass up to the top with no help. We have seen how communism ruined the country
Zachary Garcia
Communism is a perfect system of government.
The problem is that it requires everyone to be the exact same. This genetically,socially and economically is impossible.
Thus communism will never be tried because it is literally impossible to try.
Ayden Stewart
Income disparity is tragic and Utopianism considers tragedy to be the intolerable by virtue of the notion that it feels bad and they think there is a flawless (utopian) alternative end that will justify all the means.
Communism is a solution to that tragedy that supposes, inevitably, that if everything about us that creates tragedies would just go away, tragedy would stop happening. This causes two things: one, tragedy fucktuples; two, people have to resort to inhuman tactics to try and suppress everything about us that creates tragedy. This is why people in Communist countries inevitably go about behaving like automata inconvenienced with a soul. Everything human about them had to get squashed in order to cram them into this pseudo-functioning society that STILL isn't fixing any of the problems. This is why they like to reinforce dumb memes about the failings of Communism being in things like starvation and death toll - because those are tragic and tragedy can be found everywhere. They couldn't survive the discussion being less about the 100 million deaths laid at their feet and more about the lives those people were forced to live beforehand.
So that's it. Communists hate tragedy because it feels bad, in their one dimensional understanding of the relationship between sadness and joy, and they commit gross inhumanity in order to completely and utterly fail to even reduce tragedy.
Ethan Morales
I don't think they're stupid as individuals; even the dumb ones put the smartest "intelligent" animals to shame. They're certainly dumb in large groups, though.
Chase Campbell
>communism doesn't work once >guys pack up we are capitalists now Fuck off We abolish shit like private property, wage etc
Bentley Adams
>he is proud of Venezuela >proud of South America in general user, communism ravaged the entire region, and is one of the reasons south America is such a shit hole today. You have obviously never been to South America if you think that is communism "working".
Lucas Campbell
>they so what are you? a reptilian? ayy lmao
most human individuals are stupid who can't even apply basic logic
Logan Hill
Most retarded post I have ever seen
Dylan Nguyen
leftypol has become a huge hugbox. I use to go there to learn more about leftism or question their ideology but now all they do is ban non leftists.
Henry Turner
That's completely untrue though >backing Venezuela Course I don't Venezuela is state capitalist they support private property and other capitalist shit they failed because of their reliance on oil
Angel Taylor
Not an arguement
Alexander Howard
They don't ban people because they are not leftist >leftypol is a hugebox >pol isn't Top kek
Owen Young
Not a refute you didn't post an argument for me to argue against
Bentley Peterson
They also all tend to argue after a certain fashion which is easy, flippant, snide, and wholly without content. As of my typing this, there are 17 posts by a certain ID that make an incredibly strong case for this behavior.
Lucas Hughes
>We abolish shit like private property
What if the rest of your community ceases to be trustworthy with resources, for whatever reason? Wouldn't it be in one's own rational self-interest to horde resources for themselves and their families?
>, wage etc What if someone has a personal project and they want to pay someone a wage to help them out? What if someone is willing to contractually agree to complete that labor for that wage? How is stopping that from happening anything other than "authoritarian?"
David Morris
Stop having revolutions.
Dominic Reyes
Who owns things then? >the people of course! Ok, then who takes care of the private property if it is now public property? >we elect officials for it! So the officials now have control of all public property, which is simply all property.
Congratulations you have just created a neo-monarchism, where the crown owns everything. I swear communist are incapable of forward thinking.
Caleb Richardson
I think a lot of things people do every day, including things as simple as driving, require more application of basic logic, that's very impressive for Earth animals, than you'd assume. These things have become so ubiquitous in your daily life that you don't see the nuance that goes into mastering them.
Noah Jenkins
>What if the rest of your community ceases to be trustworthy with resources, for whatever reason? Wouldn't it be in one's own rational self-interest to horde resources for themselves and their families? Wouldn't happen do you think after a revolution people would abandon the ideas? >What if someone has a personal project and they want to pay someone a wage to help them out? What if someone is willing to contractually agree to complete that labor for that wage? How is stopping that from happening anything other than "authoritarian?" Why would a socialist do this? All labour is voluntary if someone wants help they can get help. If by wage you mean giving them resources I don't see a problem with that but it would rarely happen
Alexander Robinson
Communism works on when individuality is completely eradicated. Like in ants or bees. Capitalism isn't perfect, but it's the best system for dealing with the human element.
Eli Anderson
It is completely true, you college age b8. Have you ever been down there? I have. Quite frequently for work and family. It is disgusting how had it is, all because of socialist ideas that do not work and just encourages corruption.
Did you know if you want to be protected by the police, you are expected to bribe them? They will sit there and watch you get robbed, shoot the thief, and take your shit for themselves. This is the reality of your communism. You ignore the realities of human nature and it comes to destroy your ideal society from within. Enough with your fantasy bullshit, all it does is get people killed.
Leo Russell
>put words into my mouth >XD commies are dumb Retard I'm against representatives direct democracy would be better now google murray bookchin you uneducated y*nk
Anthony Lewis
fuck off corbyn
Angel Cruz
>Start thread asking them how they are true leftists when they are so different from the mainstream left >get banned
Meanwhile here there are hundreds of "DRUMPF BTFO" threads
8pol is a huge stormfag hugbox though. No better than leftypol.
Brody Fisher
walking is a lot more complex than driving, yet even shitty brainless animals can do it. and they dont need years to learn it like humans
what comes next? will you pretend you need an IQ of 800+ to make your heart beat? at the center of intelligence is the application of logic and reason. if you can't do that you are stupid
Luke Walker
I'm against Authoritarian communism as it can create corruption plus for (you) youtu.be/zIddCEBCKHQ
Hudson Edwards
No point in trying.
Commies are not commies because they neceserally think their system is good.
Commies fall in 3 categories:
The ideologue who has drank his own coolaid. The brainwashed pleb. And the exploiter who seeks either power at the head of it, or his own bettermet through manipulation.
Kevin Ross
You forgot inner enemy that never sleeps.
Dylan Myers
>dumpf btfo threads Haven't seen many Post proofs of ban
Chase Wood
>uneducated yank >yet he believes in communism How absolutely degenerate. Just admit that you are a lazy fuck that doesn't want to earn anything in your life. That is the real reason people attest for communism. Don't lie, mongrel.
Eli Walker
? If you're going to say human nature fuck off its compatible
Austin Thompson
>Why does communism exist? useless communists can't make it on their own so they plot to take what's yours in hopes of becoming future apparatchiks/totalitarians absolved of all crimes perpetrated during their wet-dream revolution
>The more I think about it the less it makes sense to me. that's why it was attempted in the most backwards and illiterate shitholes lacking any semblance of critical thinking
Jose Baker
>Hungary >Worked >A nation that got rekt by a nation that France told pls stop about 20 times and 3 months ago was holding to dear life
Commies are retarded.
Mason Young
>Wouldn't happen do you think after a revolution people would abandon the ideas?
Jayden Lopez
>Wouldn't happen do you think after a revolution people would abandon the ideas? What makes you think they won't? Doesn't sound like your system is sufficiently prepared to deal with variables that come from times/circumstances changing.
>Why would a socialist do this? With the community having a monopoly on the means of production, someone with a good idea, capable of lengthening/improving/saving lives won't be able to convince whoever's in charge that their project is worthy of funding and support. There would obviously need to be rules to vet which of these projects get greenlit and which don't, because you'd run out of resources if you funded and supported every single stupid idea that every single stupid fuck has. Which means you would have to have some sort of committee decide on things like this, which leads to corruption. Committees are made up of humans.
Ethan Brooks
All communism is authoritarian, you dip. How else do you enforce the >no private property rule? The moment you force someone to do something against their will, for the benefit of society, you are authoritarian. When will euros understand freedom?
Easton Morris
>degenerate Nice sjw tier buzzword No I just want a society in which we can have more time ton ourselves (through atomisation of jobs), preventing global warming, a better democracy and other shit it's not about a job people without a job get bored after a while and go back to work fuck off
Dominic Hughes
>It's compatible >The want of man to exchange goods and services >The want to stockplie for hard times >The want to own ones things >Compatible with gibsmedat the ideology
Jeremiah Jackson
Human nature is not compatible with communism. Sorry bub, even your leftypol agrees on that, which is why they harass anyone who says human nature by spamming >MUH HUMAN NATURE HAHAHAHAHAHA Because they have no rebutal.
Connor Myers
>Why does communism exist? The more I think about it the less it makes sense to me. Why does any form of political ideology exist? The more I think about it the less it makes sense to me.
Hudson Hill
>paris commune >not a bunch of retarded rioters who got BTFO by based Tiers learn history before spewing bullshit
Owen Harris
Read The Little Red Hen sometime.
Liam Walker
Protip: if you want to see why an ideology is flawed stop reading "criticisms" of it and actually go fucking read the ideology. If it's got flaws you'll be able to spot them, and if you can't spot them...
Anyway, whoever wrote that OP clearly doesn't understand the REAL reason why communism doesn't work, and that's because it's values unilaterial instead of values pluralistic, but that's not unique to communism. Pretty much every Enlightenment era ideology, including liberalism (and yes, this includes you too classical liberals and lolbertarians) is based in the retarded idea that there is a rationally correct way to live that can be demonstrated to be rationally correct to inherently rational men. This obviously sounds retarded to us now, but only because most of us don't see how this retarded concept underlies pretty much all of our ideology. Why do we have an IMF that goes around teaching countries how to economics? Because we believe that it's rationally demonstrable that doing certain things always leads to good outcomes for all people, except good is a values judgement, so we're really saying all people have the same good, which can be achieved through economics.
The point is that communism's flaw is a lot more complex than HURR UNNATURAL.
Colton Parker
Communism was born out of Jewish collectivist ideology. Almost all of the fathers of the communist ideology including Marx were Jews.
It was basically a way for Zionists in the 19th century to take over white goyim countries un the guise of improving the lives of workers only to then install a brutal regime that steals wealth from the goyim and transfers it to the jews.
Thats why Hitler and the Nazis were such raging anti-Semites because Jews are objectively and provably the closest thing to absolute evil that exists in this world.
Kevin Nguyen
"Measured in equality"
>so if I'm a millionaire >you have 900 billion $
No man that guy is in poverty >but he lives a comfortable life The other guy has to much >I can get what ever I want and eat No this is why we need communism. Your obvisouly brainwashed by the upper class.
Tyler Perry
You must be a new commie, because communism does not do what you think it does. Also >muh job automation Automation will only ever be supplemental labor. It is impossible for it to take over the entire labor force, as that will drive human labor down in value, which will make it more benefiting to have humans working instead of machines. Stop believing in fantasy.
Jaxon Nelson
Is this a shitpost?
Levi Phillips
>>What if the rest of your community ceases to be trustworthy with resources, for whatever reason? Wouldn't it be in one's own rational self-interest to horde resources for themselves and their families? >Wouldn't happen do you think after a revolution people would abandon the ideas?
Ya no way, now give me all of your shit. Don't worry, I'm just watching it for you :^)
Jackson Walker
Explain communist???? Explain!!!!
Chase Bennett
>drawing empirical evidence from the real world You're a retard. Real life isn't a science experiment with controlled variables. "Economic freedom" (itself a measurement constructed to suit some political purpose and likely tailor made to get the results of that graph because that's the graph that the think-tank wanted to make when it started researching) is far from the only thing that differed between those sample countries.
Not to mention that Marx himself fucking wrote that capitalism is necessary to move from undeveloped to developed, and that Communism is only possible in a developed economy. He anticipated the commies happening in Germany or England, not Russia, for this exact reason - he didn't see Russia as developed enough for communism to be viable. So pointing out that capitalism leads from poverty to prosperity is entirely in line with Marx and you've over a century late to the party you fucking idiot. Not to mention that communism is not inherently anti free-market, only anti private ownership of the means of production.
This debate over whether development is necessary for communism was part of the Trotsky-Lenin split.
Long story short you are wrong on every conceivable level and examining any discrete part of your argument, no matter how small, uncovers fallacies and evidence exactly as wrong as your entire argument, and this is why you got kicked off doubles chan.
Lucas Long
I was making fun of the commies. Yes
Jayden Torres
You fools don't even realize why communism was made. It was made for powerful people to take control of governments easily because they have the people on their side. Until you think about it in a different light you will always be one of the "useful idiots." Communism is one of the most evil things ever made and it shows in history. No person or ideology even come close.
Cameron Bailey
>We abolish shit like private property, wage etc That sounds like slavery to me...
Lucas Martin
You fucking arrest them you dumb fuck.
The American government operates jails, courts, and gas chambers as well. Authoritarian refers to a distribution of political power, not basic functions of the state like law and order.
Shut the fuck up you fucking moron.
Josiah Long
u mad, bro?
Logan Bell
> because local superpower embargo on your economics is socialism
Jackson Moore
I read a lot of marxist literature when I was younger. They have some useful and interesting insights, but they apply them inconsistently, or treat them as an all-encompassing theory of everything, when in reality they're just tools. They'll treat them as valid in some circumstances, but hand-wave them away when their theory leads them to a conclusion they don't like. I think Marxism has evolved into a very plastic theory- They've designed it so that they can justify whatever their immediate goals are, and have an easy way to label and dismiss those who go against those goals- 'false consciousness', 'labor aristocrat' etc.
What if capitalism is the thesis, and socialism the antithesis? Then the synthesis is a 'third position' beyond capitalism and communism. I just used dialectics to argue an anti-marxist position, but since that goes against marxist goals, they would probably argue that it isn't correct dialectics. According to my historical materialist analysis, the modern left (soft-leftism) is a coalition of large, rootless multinational corporations with lumpenproletarian ghetto trash and migrants against the conservative traditional working class. What's up with that? Why does historical materialism lead me to an anti-marxist conclusion? I guess I must have just done it wrong or have false consciousness or something like that.
John Morgan
>this commie brit trying this hard but still having no arguments except "n-not my communism"
John Foster
Humans naturally value property and arrange themselves into hierarchical classes.
Jonathan Lee
>I guess I must have just done it wrong or have false consciousness or something like that. Or maybe the industrialised world has only existed for a century and a half and your retarded historical narrative falls apart as soon as we go any further back than 1901.
Merely using the right buzzwords doesn't make your analysis correct.
Mason Thompson
Marxists fall into two basic categories-
-naive idealists who like the whole gay utopia aspect of it. girls who listen to NPR and munch granola. nice people, if a bit dopey -angry violent nihilists who see that communism can be used to justify any action, and use it as a means to justify their sociopathic urges
it sustains itself on those idealists- the nice girls who just want to help the poor, who do the grunt work. then the sociopaths work their way to the leadership positions of the organization and purge them all. the nice idealists are too weak and wishy-washy to do anything about the sociopaths, because they are true believers and are willing to forgive shitty behavior if they can come up with a sob story about how oppressed they are
Evan Sanchez
Lol " no discernable reason "
Zachary Cook
>Merely using the right buzzwords doesn't make your analysis correct.
actually, according to the immortal science of Marxism-Leninism, it does
James Brooks
Y'know, I can't say Sup Forums is really any different. We do at least require the graphs to have some sauce and real values, but remember, in this place your most carefully picked and well thought out arguments can still be ignored, and half the time are, just because they don't fit with what someone else is trying to share. Because it doesn't fit their perspective, it doesn't matter if you can pull DoJ, DoT, WikiLeaks, anything, they just yell Shill and move on to the next guy and only confront arguments they CAN shred.
I've rarely seen people concede that they were wrong on pol, but it does happen. And I've been here for quite some time.
Christian Scott
This is the number one problem with communism. If someone incorporated some type of "electoral college" into communism to give the minority a voice I bet communism would work a lot better