Jordan Peterson

>Truth is what is useful

How the fuck does this make any sense? Truth is objective reality and nothing else

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>implying reality isn't subjective

shiggy diggy

le battle of ideas :^))))

>if someone held a gun to your head and told you to recite the order of presidents, and you have the wrong order, but they let you go anyway, is the order you gave true
>yes
the madman

>sort yourself out
>*weeps*

He is right

he uses more than one definition of the word
youtube.com/watch?v=ZmZK9W4V1Rc

>Everybody ITT that doesn't understand Jordan Peterson

from a Darwinian framework

>2+2 becomes 5 as long as it means you won't get the shock

4 would have been an insufficiently true answer.

i didn't ask for these feels

He's saying that objective truth isn't simply enough for humans to live. There needs to be more for us to thrive and advance beyond our current state. One of the oldest professions in human history is story telling.

The narrative is one of the oldest verbal tools we've designed, and it works out so well that we claim it was given by God himself (In the beginning there was the Word).

The stories in the Bible aren't often literally true, but instead they are a collection of truths that string together into a narrative the common person can remember.

It's like when you read Lord of the Rings. None of it is real, but you still feel for the characters. You look up to them, and think about how amazing that world would be. Even after you finished reading, they stick with you because they were written with real truths about humanity in them. So you keep them in your mind somewhere, hoping that their struggles will have educated you enough so you know what to do when faced with challenges in life.

Imagine not knowing what pragmatism means

If your goal was to not get shot, then yes the order was "true" in that context, because it fucking worked.

FPBP

>2+2=3 if there's a gun to your head
>Austrian "mathematicians"

>insufficiently true
truth isn't "sufficient" or "insufficient"
It's either true or not true

peterson is twisting the definition of the word "true" just like the sjws he derides twist the definition of other words

Are people really this stupid?

Jordan Peterson went full JUST by clinging so hard to his stupid idea of truth. He could have agreed with Sam's analogy and move on to talking about mythology and other areas he is an expert in. But instead he chose to die on this hill of his version of truth and it made him so incoherent. Sad for such a smart man but so confused on this one point. Hopefully he can sort himself out and return his /ourguy/ status. But fuck was I embarrassed for him during that awful podcast.

>hurr Darwinien truth

he looks like a tired retard. which should be relatable to Sup Forums :^)

Some truth is useful you can see that in (((current year))) politics and science. But the other fraction concerning mostly non sociological but mostly physical and scientific stuff is objectively true even though you can't really claim that because it takes one discrepancy to rewrite the laws of physics and the mind melting arguments about how you can't prove mathematics even when it works!

He's letting himself get tripped up on his definition of true. You can just call what Harris calls truth, truth, and what Peterson calls truth, *truth or Darwinian truth or wtv, and then proceed from there

Religion may or may not be true in the Harris sense of truth. I would wager it probably is not, but who gives a fuck. Religion is an extremely important and useful thing for the human animal, and at the end of the day we're humans, not truth machines.

This is a deliberate effort by him to subvert his own public image so there isn't as much heat on him from all the lefties.
Jesus Christ was said to hold the truth, all the truth and nothing but the truth, and it got him killed. Same with so many other enlightened individuals throughout human history.
Peterson is way up there with them. He needs all the mistakes he can get.

You can't objectively prove that 2+2 is 4 or any other number! I know that sounds silly and counter intuitive but that is one very peculiar thing about mathematics! It is mind boggling.

...

>Truth is objective reality = autism

>Truth is what is useful = astute

You have to let go of Newtonian rationalism and embrace Darwinian existentialism.

>What's true is the order you gave was false
>What's true is the other guy didn't know the order to fact-check you, or didn't care to shoot you.
>What's true is you must have eaten paint chips as a child to ask such a retarded question.

He was trying to set up that phony definition of truth so he could later use that bologna to support his sky dad. Sam wasn't having it.

Sam Harris 2020

You are conflating two different contexts, and I can understand the confusion because "2+2=" are in both cases the same symbols, but mean two totally different things. If you point a gun at me and you want to hear 3 for "2+2=" and I don't want to get shot, then 3 is the correct answer for me to say. But if you want to talk mathematics and about addition of natural numbers as commonly defined, the obvious true answer is 4.

I don't even know what is so outlandish about this, but please don't shy away from showing me your objective truth wherever it is.

Carry your friend through his Mordor.

Or stop calling yourself his friend.

This

I hope you're just pretending to retarded

That is the hill he dies on because it's the most important phisophical difference between him and most scientific thinkers. He values the big picture of how a person should act more than deducable scientific claims.

>He could have agreed with Sam's analogy and move on to talking about mythology and other areas he is an expert in.
IMO the whole point of them getting stuck was because sam didn't want to loop back to that disagreement afterwards

if you built a time travel machine and went back to the 800s and found another time traveler and he was your grandpa and it turns out that he was also the king of some very important country and the jester figured out you both were time travellers and he starte dmaking fun of you. is it true???

Oh boy, I'd love to see the mental gymnastics on this one.

Go on...

Are you really this fucking stupid? Please consider killing yourself.

This level of idiocy should be victim to a new holocaust.

I won't really go to ethics or morality but saying the truth that would make you suffer in any way spiritual, material, physical doesn't make any sense. I know Sup Forums considers the holocaust a holohoax but for the sake of argument lets imagine that a farmer who was hiding jews in his basement told about them when a SS officer asked him. He would have been shot, his family dead, the jews sent to ovens and so on what is the point of holding on to this truth and always the truth thing when it doesn't benefit anyone in some circumstances?

Sam, you need to go.

Philosophy Grad student here, Peterson's ideas are retarded and embarressing even from the perspective of the school of thought he's (failing) to represent

>objective reality

You have to be trolling.

>Objective reality doesn't exist
>But there's objectively only two genders

This

Holy fuck, you went to grad school for philosophy? kill yourself, my man.
t. philosophy minor

Numbers and other mathematical objects are simply concepts, and not things that are actually observable in the universe, so we cannot say that statements like 2+2=4 are true.

Not an argument

Go big or go home brainlet

>Brainlet
How come I didn't encounter this word before? Truly bantz worthy.

>Sup Forums hates peterson now

Seems fitting since we shifted timelines where trump is an incompetent doof

Guys, I need you in here. Please help me explain that art doesn't care about facts. That meaning has its own weight.

Jesus, these fucks just don't GET IT.

The fact that Americans accepted it into their ethos means something, and ignoring it and saying 'oh, it's just a statue built by the French with a poem written by a Jew, WHEN WILL THE LIBERALS LEARN THAT THE MEDIA IS LYING TO THEM' doesn't actually help with or mean anything?

From a psychological perspective, he's right.

The only arbiters of "truth" are us, and we can never be wholly objective. But furthermore, we'll believe whatever it is in our interest to believe.

For hundreds of years you could have asked whether the Earth being flat was true and they would have said yes.

>true
reality is twisted and constantly changing the rules, there is no objectivity in practicality

I love Peterson but if you expected him to be 100% logic&reason you're watching the wrong guy.

........Damn, that kind of makes sense.

A shekel for a good goy from a meme country.

>american education

You don't even learn about your own schools of thought anymore, don't you?

Please elaborate.

gender is a psycho construct that has no barring or benefit to the human sexes production and growth

this, most of the stuff he talks about is interesting mythos which has little to do with logic and reason

He's turning cynical. What he's saying is that the truth suits the victors.

They're a bunch of faggots who can't even figure out art is propaganda.

Why else do monuments exist and kings patronized artists?

ireland going big with literature pffft you are famous for game of thrones shittiest writers D&D

...

You don't even know what "objective reality" means. Objective refers to an object. Your only experience with objects is subjective. You cannot have knowledge of objects that isn't a product of your subjective experience. So why talk about objects like they exist independent of experience? "Objective" isn't the opposite of subjective.

>art is propaganda

doesn't this imply intent?

In truth lies moral bliss. Whoever believes he's on the side of the truth does so because it feels good, and whoever is wrong will believe his truth is the only truth.

The farmer in your hypothesis doesn't know whether the nazis would shoot him and his family for ratting out. If he continues hiding the Jews and he gets found out, then there will be consequences, but there's a chance he'll get away with it if he steps forward and tells the truth. Maybe he'll even be rewarded, there's no telling.

In the end however, truth is whatever resonates best with our perception. That's why we invent tools whose perception is perfect, like a spectrometer.

how can you guys be so retarded

has it right, he isnt saying that adding two things to two other things will leave you with 3 things just because a gun is to your head, his point is that the answer to his question is 3, the ideas behind "2+2" is different in the mathematical case than when the gun is to your head and you need to understand that how reality works is through symbols for ideas and not the ideas or objects themselves, since we dont perceive things in that way in our brains

Objective
>being the object of perception or thought; belonging to the object of thought rather than to the thinking subject (opposed to subjective).

Objective is the opposite of subjective. You can't start ignoring definitions in the dictionary for your own purposes

This has changed my perspective on this matter. I need to dwell on this a bit more. Thank you!

>objective reality
We don't even perceive reality in its true form we have something called perfection delay how Can reality be objective

deconstruction is a key philosophy of the left, get out now!

>how can mirrors be real if our eyes aren't real

define reality

THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS

Fucking this. Why do people have such a hard time understanding this?

Yes, but most art is often propaganda.

Obviously landscape paintings aren't valued as such, but a lot of famous paintings do.

but that's wrong, statements like 2+2=4 are true in many different ways, depending on what you use the symbols to represent

But he would argue that mythology is actually th most reasonable thing. Science is a stack of deductions devoid of any grand meaning. They are tools as Peterson would say.

Perhaps you'll notice that "what is objective" easily fits inside of "what is useful". Usefulness is a higher form of truth than mere objectivity.

Sort yourselves out.

Brain ‘15-second delay’ shields us from hallucinogenic experience – research — RT News
rt.com/news/brain-neuroscience-visual-information-709/
>Mfw when Jaden Smith makes sense

What said. Propaganda is art, but art is not propaganda. Art is meant to transmit ideas, emotions. To portray and explicate.

That makes it really good for propaganda, but you're making the same mistake as the art-blind
in the other thread. It's not a force from outside you, it's a force from within you.

Do you have 13 Death and 16 whatever that was? I missed those 2 last night. Please can you help an user out?

Have you ever had a perception or thought that wasn't your own?

...

>objective reality
Get a load of this positivist cuck.
There are no truths, only perceptions.

Yes it was in a dream it was a completely new idea a part of my subconscious told me

He's speaking metaphorically.

After dwelling on it a bit I'm having a hard time coming up up with an argument against the notion that art is always some form of "propaganda"

Why would you give symbolic form to anything if not to add social value to your ideas?

Only good post in this thread desu.

see my addition here

If you're writing for yourself, if you're painting for yourself. It's meant to portray, for yourself also.

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Baby's first philosophy how adorable.

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I mean that makes sense but I think you're conflating something being reasonable with reason itself? Sorry, I'm not sure if that makes sense or I'm just being retarded.

You're a meme. What was your thesis about?

Why do emo kids write? It's because their emotions are too confusing, too powerful, they can grasp them, like trying to grasp raindrops in a maelstrom. They have to put them down on paper so they can understand them, so they can grant them reality.

yes you can.

I get that user but I think if you continue down the path you've outlined you'll see that it is still about society and not one's self

G-good post