Socialism/Communism General

>But the economic calculation problem!
macs.hw.ac.uk/~greg/publications/ccm.IJUC07.pdf
>But socialism has never worked!
Not true. What about red Hungary (before it got tanked) and Catalonia or Rojava?
>Labur theory of value is wrong
Explain please
>But commies want equality of outcome not equality of opportunity!
False. Labor is the measure of value. So not giving people more labor vouchers if they work hard makes no sense.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=sSDClxjcR-4
youtube.com/watch?v=Rys45B4OhV0
youtube.com/watch?v=QPxofHfffS8
reality.gn.apc.org/econ/DZ_article1.pdf'
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

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It's shit.

>basing your society entirely around the lowest common denominator of retards

I'm seeing state capitalism here.

It doesn't matter if you get a bunch of stuffy professors to make something sound good on paper it doesn't work in reality.

How many more millions of people have to die before you realized it will never work?

Marx's grave is in Highgate Cemetery. Like all cemeteries in the UK, it's open to the public. No charges apply. In fact, it would be illegal to charge people to enter it.

It is owned and maintained by the local authority, like every other graveyard, cemetery and burial ground in the UK.

A lot of people have died for shitty state crapitalism. Almost none for actual communism.

>>>//112726651
fuck off

Explain why.

Because we have a historical record of those states that tried and failed with communism.

every time real socialism was attempted it turned into a massive failure. EVERY TIME. you are incredibly naive and likely never worked a day in your life if you think it would turn out any different this time.

They had a horrible bureaucratic oligarchy. They didn't use decentralized planning. It wasn't a great system. And even then its the system that turned russia from a country full of illiterate peasants into one of the most powerful country's in the world. So even with bad planning and lack of worker control it still managed to create the soviet union.

Name an example of socialism where the workers democratically owned the means of production.

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But it still failed while the West continued. What is your beef with Capitalism that you feel there must still be some needed argument for failure?

Capitalism is causing most of the crisis we see now. Imperialism, Globalism, The fact that we have enough food for everyone but people still starve to death due to us just being wasteful. Climate change. Famines caused in the past by capitalism. Like when Britain killed a whole lot of Indians with a huge famine.the fact that capitalism is inherently exploitative because workers have to work harder solely to give their boss more money ect.

Plus the contradiction between use value and exchange means we end up with a lot of homeless people and a lot of empty houses. Its not profitable to address the urgent need for homes because we don't produce according to need.

FUCKING COMMIES!!!!!!

>Capitalism is causing most of the crisis we see now
>and Gommunism and sonig will figs id

> Climate change
kewl meme home slice

>Like when Britain killed a whole lot of Indians with a huge famine
>humans have the power to start famines

Politics causes Imperialism and Globalism not capitalism. Capitalism can be in any political system that does not blur the line into the economic realm such as in Socialism. A dictator can run a capitalist country as long as he does not place regulations upon the economy. And it would be up to him if he wanted to be imperialistic not the companies in his state.

Capitalism is solely responsible for pulling millions if not billions out of poverty. You make the basic leftist mistake in thinking you can end poverty. You cannot end poverty as it is the default mode of the mankind. We came into this world wearing loin cloths and looking for berries. What you can do is lift people out of poverty by raising the standard of living.

Capitalism is responsible for the food production that we have now, but it is not responsible for the price controls that are enacted which in turn create food shortages. Just as when leftist politicians enact rent controls to appease the poor voters and in effect cause a housing shortage.

Workers work hard because they undertook an obligation to work hard in exchange for payment. They do not have to stay on the job if they do not like the conditions. Labor is a scarce resource as well and companies do compete for it. If a company is too exploitative then it will lose workers and most likely go under. Keep in mind that capitalism allows for former workers to save their capital in order to create the companies that hire workers. So if you have beef with company owners than you have beef with the workers as well.

How old are you?

You'll grow out of your edgy teen communist phase when you get a real job and understand how poor lazy people deserve to be purged.

>Politics causes globalism and imperialism
No true. Company's need more workers so they either get the state to invade some place (In the past) Or bring in Mexicans who are more desperate to get a job.

Capitalism is not going to be around for ever. When robots take all our jobs or at least a large portion of them capitalism will fall.

>Company's need more workers so they either get the state to invade some place (In the past)
i forget when did the forces of the Mcdonald Mcarmy get a Mctimemachine?

I get a job because I'm hungry and I need food. I Make a chair in the job that sells for money on a market. My boss gets a portion of the money generated from my labor. If I quit my job then I either starve to death or have to be a hobo so that's not a good solution. I could start my own company but only 8% of company's actually work so thats not a good option either. I'm stuck in a job where my boss takes a portion of the product of my labor. I could work a lot less hours If I was only producing enough wealth for my self.

>MUH ROBOTS
suuure someday the robots will come to wisk you away to Marx's lap so you can suck his dick

They used to do this. They have mostly stopped the imperialism in favor of globalism instead.

if you hate globalism then why aren't you a nationalist? communism is globalism

I hate capitalist globalism. It hurts workers. Communism would have full employment so no one would want to come over seeking a job even if there were no nations.

dude i'm completely self employed. i sell scrap metal and have a rental property. you don't need to be an employee to have a job.

You aren't exploited right now but its not feasible for most to be self employed.

can you put a seed in the ground?

A company pays you based on the value of your labor. If you seek for income equality then there would be no income mobility. Income equality would entail lowering the bar way down to the weakest link. In your system how would you reward skill?

Company's do not pay you the full value of your labor. Your labor generates money for the company. More money than your paycheck. Yes In my system I would reward skill. The way to get equality of opportunity is to remove the boss and have the workers self manage the company.

>Labor is the measure of value
>pay janitors more than surgeons
>wonder why there are no surgeons to fix your liver or heart when they will inevitably be damaged by your poor living conditions

Surgeons work harder than janitors so we should pay them more.

hey i asked you if you could put a seed in the ground here can you answer my question?

Yes.

Of course they do not pay you what you consider the "full value" of your labor. They could not stay in business if they gave their workers whatever they wanted. Workers understand this and that is why they accept to work for a company. A hospital will hire a physician that brings in $200,000 a year in Medicare reimbursement for $150,000 but not a physician that can only bring in $150,000 but asking to be paid $300,000. However, if a really good physician comes along and he follows all Medicare protocol perfectly, the hospital may hire him at $200,000 if he brings in $250,000. The physician that wanted $300,000 for only bringing in $150,000 is shit out of luck, is that unfair?

The last general wasnt dead and had less than 100 posts before they made his one. Stop making a new one every time that retarded pedro makes you look worse than usual.

if you want to be self employed you can sell chives at your local farmers market. they are the easiest thing in the world to grow and everybody wants. every human with working fingers and working legs is capable of being self employed.

Each person should get what they produce.

Gas all leftist scum

Yes but do you honestly think that a poor person could just quit his job and grow chives and wouldn't starve or at least become a homeless person?

Would not this still bring about inequality? What are you truly trying to solve? Just name your number one issue.

There are charities and food pantries around thanks to private non-profits.

I don't care about inequality. I care about exploitation done under capitalism. I don't think anyone is entitled to my labor other than me. Especially nor my boss. To solve this the workers will rise up and self manage the firm without a boss.

>When talking about USSR's military strenght
LOOK HOW STRONG COMMUNISM IS TOVARISH
>When talking about USSR's economy stupidity or that of their statelites
IT'S NOT REAL COMMUNISM GOYM

So to avoid being exploited you have to become a worthless beggar and live in poverty? Extremely voluntary.

>Yes but do you honestly think that a poor person could just quit his job and grow chives and wouldn't starve or at least become a homeless person?
if he was poor and hungry enough yes. at the very least he could eat the chives himself to stay alive. i would know i'v done it myself and now i have enough money to have a rental property a house and a computer. money is everywhere you just have to be smart enough to take it

Not all of them work that many hours but fine, take a dentist instead. The fact that hard-earned knowledge and ability doen't matter compared to the number of hours of labor is beyond retarded. Why would anyone ever want a job that requires anything more than a middle school education?

Not an argument. The real parasites are at the top.

>name a successful socialist society

You can't.

Way to prove him right, you utter fucking spastic.

youtube.com/watch?v=sSDClxjcR-4
youtube.com/watch?v=Rys45B4OhV0
youtube.com/watch?v=QPxofHfffS8

Communism caused more mass murder than nazism even when you factor in war casualties in wwII and Aleksandr Isaejvitj Solzjenitsyn completely debunked the whole concept of communism. But the youth doesn't know.

Going to college to become a dentist counts as labor. They had to do a lot of unpaid labor to become a dentist. So now they get paid more than someone who didn't go through all the work.

A leftist who watches these videos will start to get a clue about how wrong he has been about what communism results in.

Just a friendly reminder:

It's perfectly acceptable, morally speaking, to punch communists.

So it's just like it is with capitalism? Oh right, all their extra money gets taxed away, so they don't have any reason to study in the first place.

>group identity kills society
the exact opposite

It's fucking sad how Czechoslovakia was literally richer than Finland and Italy

Who is being exploited? A rural community which has high unemployment suddenly gets a new dollar general store which employs people from the local community, in turn raising the standard of living and allowing people greater purchasing power. Who is the being exploited here?

If you think that no one else is entitled to your labor that is fine, do not seek employment and work for yourself. However, do not whine and complain about how hard it is to succeed on your own because it shows that you simply want a handout. You do not honestly care about other workers if you want to take away their ability to have income mobility. Capitalism is truly for the workers, because it allows workers to make all decisions as their own agent. Workers have the ability to create their own companies and hire more workers. You fail to realize this. You are advocating for removing the decisions of workers to manage their own affairs, and in essence are anti-worker.

As an example they starved the farmers to death in sibiria since the commies felt that they were oppressing the proletariat by being good farmers foistering thus unequality, subsequently millions starved to death because the farmers no longer cultivated the land..

Depends on the way of groupthinking, way to strawman the title before even watching the video.

Communism fucks you up for good
Don't try it, kids

>Depends on the way of groupthinking, way to strawman the title before even watching the video.
that's what the title is for

No it isn't leftist, this is why you don't understand anything. Please go watch those 3 videos, they tear you apart completely and show the error in your behaviour and naive idea of communism.

I want workers to control the company's they work at through democracy. They should get the full value of their labor. Everyone should have the right to be employed.

Whats the main argument?

You don't read/have understood the contents of a book by looking at its cover. This is the level of understanding that goes into the neo commie youth, and why they fall for the same disastrous idea because they are too far away in years from examples of the dire result of the implementation of it.

I'm not a leftist or a communist you naive liberal centrist

Just watch it, if you ask me again what it is, i won't respond. Just watch the first one it's 25 minutes, it won't take long before you get to something interesting.

Workers do control the companies. Not all work is of the same labor. So I see now that your issue is with rich people. You do not have what they have, so you are jealous and want it. Well some find that when they are envious of others it gives them something called incentive. From your earlier post about not wanting to struggle with self-employment, I can see that you are envious of rich people and are looking for a handout which is why you are advocating for communism.

How do you know whether a good is worth its costs in a communist society? Can you prove to me you solved the economic calculation problem? You delusional faggot?

>I want workers to control the company's they work at through democracy
then who starts the company?
>They should get the full value of their labor.
learn about chaos theory and entropy before you say you want shit that is literally impossible
>Everyone should have the right to be employed
should a business be forced to hire a sex offender or someone who has a history of violence?

>The true ones
No. There are the proleteriat, and the bourgeoisie.

>Who will tell you that having such a big house for yourself is not what a true communist does

Personal property is not private property. We're not going to collectivise your toothbrushes.

>The rich guys who's money you were about to redistribute
Socialism is not about redistributing money *facepalm*

Check out these 3 videos and save them. It explains the entire leftists progrom and it's very easy to see that it's communist and also goes into how flawed the ideas behind communism is, they look good on paper but when you implement it you can clearly see it all goes to hell if you do.

>What about red Hungary (before it got tanked) and Catalonia or Rojava?
not real socialism :^)

>do not seek employment and work for yourself.
This requires you to have capital to start your own business. So you either need to have your labor exploited by a business owner or exploited a bank.
>However, do not whine and complain about how hard it is to succeed on your own because it shows that you simply want a handout.
ok
>You do not honestly care about other workers if you want to take away their ability to have income mobility.
Socialists don't want people to be poor they want the workers to be entitled to the fruits of their own labor.
>Capitalism is truly for the workers, because it allows workers to make all decisions as their own agent.
No, capitalism is for the capitalist. Unless you are in a high position at a company or work in a co op you are not able to make decisions regarding your work. The only decision you have is the person who is going to get your surplus value.
>Workers have the ability to create their own companies and hire more workers.
There is nothing wrong with creating your own company. The problem is with extracting the surplus value from your employees. The money generated isn't from you, it's from the labor of the workers.
>You are advocating for removing the decisions of workers to manage their own affairs, and in essence are anti-worker.
Also wrong. Socialists want the workers to have the power to make democratic decisions in their workplace. In the current system the workers only have the ability to manage the workplace if the owner allows them.

i know about all that i'm just trying to chalange the kid to think a little about what he's saying

>This requires you to have capital to start your own business
seechives grow pretty much everywhere and nobody will bother you if you take them

>who starts the company
The workers? Remember, private property is socialized
>learn about chaos theory and entropy before you say you want shit that is literally impossible
Actually, labor theory of value is correct and there's empirical evidence for this: reality.gn.apc.org/econ/DZ_article1.pdf'

''Abstract: This study aims to investigate the empirical strength of the labor theory of value. Using input-output data and labor hour statistics for Sweden it replicates tests done by Cockshott and Cottrell (1998) for the British economy. Its results are broadly consistent: labor values are closely correlated with market prices. When it comes to reality, the labor theory of value works at least as well as the theory of production prices.''

>should a business be forced to hire a sex offender or someone who has a history of violence?
The workers decide.

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>Catalonia
no

How's middle school?

I LIGE GOMMUNISM TOO :DDDDD
AND I HEV UFOS IN MY VACCINE SO I ATUISTIC NAO :DDDDD

How's the starcraft league coming?

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>The workers decide.
that violates the write of that person to be hired
>Actually, labor theory of value is correct
what if a machine breaks? where dose the repair money come from?

What is being exploited? If a worker takes a job due to the incentive of wanting a higher standard of living, where is there exploitation? Workers are already entitled to the fruits of their labor, which is why they work. You also are able to make decisions regarding your labor by taking away your labor from a company that you deem unfair. Understand that labor is a scarce resource and that companies compete for labor with the greatest value behind it. Of course a company generates surplus value from a worker, this is a given. However, this is understood between workers in the form of pay differences. The owner owns the workplace, the owner is a worker, therefore a worker owns the company. Capitalism is pro-worker while socialism is anti-worker. Under socialism no worker owns their own company.

Vietnamese guy thinks Czechia communism was great. I was there right after 1990 the whole country was a shithole. My Mom fled from there risked her life. Not just my mom fled from there. It was shit.

tankies fuck off!
trotskyites piolet yourselves!
natsynd spics get out!
anarchists die in a fire!
t. Catalonian

Still waiting on a rebuttal, commie.

Property isn't real.

Read Bordiga and do fuck all.

Internationalism is flawed, but for the rest I could see a collective workplace ownership being common one day. Moreover, I do not understand how, if humans were always under what you consider shackles, can change in nature thanks to communism. Morover, rich people themselves commit heinous crimes and degenerate shit even if they have no direct interest in it (pedo rings)... therefore how will a communist society ensure goodness among humans solely thanks to provided basic needs?

>property is theft
>success is oppression
>let's steal their stuff!!
>wipe out the productive peasants for being oppressors, millions of people starve to death later on.

Welcome to communism.

>Guys i have an idea lets throw out all the democracy in Leninism and also do sweet fuck all forever.

NAZBOL GANG
A
Z
B
O
L

G
A
N
G

>ALL PROPERTY NEEDS TO BE SIEZED AND REDISTRIBUTED
>but property isn't real
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH