Can we have an actual discussion of Islam?

Can we discuss Islam, peacefully, without devolving into Ad-hominim?

Islam- Religion of Peace, or oppressive/violent?

Islamic Extremists- adherents or just extremists?

Muslims- peaceful, or violent?

Kindly refrain from defaulting to the "Other Religions" excuse. It's not an argument.

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide
answeringmuslims.com/2010/05/quran-532-nazam-and-neglecting-context.html?m=1
youtu.be/ydWB090QNIM
youtu.be/rh34Xsq7D_A
youtube.com/watch?v=udV8QY1HZRY
thereligionofpeace.com/
theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

You've really come to the wrong place if you are expecting to leave this thread even a little bit more educated and informed.

I want to have a discussion. I don't want to be more educated or more informed. I just want a factual discussion.

what's there to discuss? it's primitive poorfags believing in a magic pedophile and murdering others over it. story of mankind.

...

...

Islam is a death cult. They have some peaceful members, but most of them support violence against non-believers. It's like pre-enlightenment christianity. It is an ideology of conquest.

Bangladesh genocide of 1971
3 million hindus murdered and 300,000 women raped.
islam is still a peaceful religion.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide

NOT ALL MUSLIMS

All I have to do is look towards Sweden and Germany to know everything

Devolving to ad-hominim already?

I mean, nobody here is Muslim, (that has posted yet) but it is still ad-hominim type things

Then you should reply to this instead if the shitposter
>>

He's not wrong though. The only reason people follow it is due to pic related.

>islam
>peace
pick one

Okay, we have something important already

"Not all Muslims" complaint debunked. Thank you.

Liberal excuse: "Those weren't real Muslims".

See above "Liberal excuse"

No, we can't - there's no acceptance for bacon in Islam.

He may of used insults but he is spot on. Most of them are economic migrants for free shit so therefor poor.

Mohammed was a pedophile who claims to know everything with talking to an angel so therefor magic. And they murder anybody who disagrees.

The Quran endorses and attempts to justify killing anyone who doesn't follow Islam. Anyone who claims to be a "moderate Muslim" isn't a Muslim at all. This isn't presented as a social issue (such as, say, the Bible saying women should sit in the back of the church), rather killing non-Muslims is a path to salvation.

>but it says don't kill innocents
It defines innocent as "anyone who is Muslim".

Kind of defaulting to "other religions" excuse...

calling something by its name is no ad-hominem.

If we are going by liberal logic their is literately no winning. They constantly change the rules to fit their own needs.

The only way to win is to get another minority in to play identity politics.

They are the definition of insanity.

I agree

Liberal excuse "Not all Muslims"

Yeah. I tried to give Islam a chance. Then, I read the Quran and the chance was gone.

Islam is all about the believers and followers. People pull stuff out to say it's peaceful but right after you will see it will or won't apply to non-believers.


>“…if any one killed a person, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind; and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole of mankind…” - The Holy Quran (Chapter Five, Verse 32).

But then look further and you see
>"unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land"

Or another interpretation
>"other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth"

I have read these passages myself. I don't speak or read the language so I have to trust the translation but this theme is common. Jihad is the highest praise they can give to their god.

answeringmuslims.com/2010/05/quran-532-nazam-and-neglecting-context.html?m=1 as an example.

Yeah, I'm kind of stereotyping. I wish a "real Muslim" would show up to plead their case...

Very true

>Islam- Religion of Peace, or oppressive/violent?

Well, it's a religion. Most religions want to expand and get territory/followers. It's definitely a religion which in it's narrative is more offensive than defensive.

However, looking at average islamic adherents, it seems to be a working model of life. Wife is at home taking care of kids, man is the boss and working. Everyone respects the man. Adherents don't feel oppressed, because this is a normal model of life for them.

>Islamic Extremists- adherents or just extremists?

Extremists.

>Muslims- peaceful, or violent?

Mostly peaceful, when in their own countries. Abroad they are prone to flipping out. I think most muslims would fight for islam if push came to shove, but so would probably most Americans for muh freedumbs.

Source: Lived in the middle east for 3 years. Had muslim friends.

Let's just go here...

There is a stink turk here.

Some pics, simple image search brought me these.

Islam is based

...

>Source: Lived in the middle east for 3 years. Had muslim friends.
As a sex slave?

If you asked if treason against the state should be a capital offense you can bet that 30% of a given country's population would agree. Especially in the Americas.

If you asked a typical red-blooded American whether muh Democracy should be implemented everywhere you can be sure he'd say yes.

You're just blinded to the fact that most of the world is adherent to one form of religion or another. This board right here is mostly followers of a secular religion known as nationalism.

Also- anecdotal evidence fallacy.

Strawman fallacy

I mean, you can go to a Muslim country and see for yourself.

Still a fallacy. Especially if used against statistics.

You seem to know your fallacies, I better back the fuck up.

Watch this guy. There are other videos too. He gets his fellow hosts to admit they basically support isis and cuts through their taqiya.

youtu.be/ydWB090QNIM

Also, from Turkey, bias already clear. You contribute no statistics and ignore all facts.

What's fun is that if you made this survey in 1500s in any christian place, the results would be similar.

Islam as a religion is nowhere near as diluted as christianity is. They are still in the dark ages, but in 2017.

Doesn't need commenting really. War or genocide is not an exclusively Muslim thing.

Clan stuff is really important in Arab culture. It's mostly to broker alliances and keep power in a certain bloodline. Not much different from European royals back in the day when they were all each other's cousins. Except in the middle east average joes do it still today.

Well, I can't argue with what's written. I went to a school where I was the only white person (aside from a South African) and non-muslim(s). There was passive agressive shit going on all the time, but never anything physical because we were relatively big guys. Was it because they were muslims or because they were kids being kids, picking on other kids who were different? Go figure.

But the everyday experience in the middle east (even Saudi) is that vast majority of people are normal and don't wish non-muslims harm.

It absolutely isn't. There is qualitatively nothing that differentiates Islam as an ideology versus nationalism. I'm going with Fromm's term secular religion since I feel it captures the essence.

Where there's a weak secular political organization you'll have a strong religious political organization pop up and vice versa. Unless you're as naive to think that countries like KSA, UAE, Iran, etc. use Islam as anything but a tool to control their populations.

Deflection/Strawman fallacy

>m-muh strawman
>m-muh fallacies

Ok, I guess I will go jump out the window now because you really destroyed my worldview beyond any repair.

Then what good things islam brings?

Just look at islam countries. It's 100x worse than Brazil and Brazil fucking sucks.
Islam is a fucking cancer. Plain and simple.

That is the biggest strawman I've seen today. We are talking about people agreeing with killing apostates and supporting suicide bombings, not putting your country first or (ideally) helping places have democracy. Even though "spreading democracy" is mostly a ploy, it's noble in its merit in the heads of the uninformed. We are talking about something on completely different levels here.

There are you able to understand now?

Contribute something more than just "But Christianity". Then we'll talk.

Ok, go pray for skydaddy you faggot

erdale jes to ti?

Can you stop shilling?
Fuck all Shitskins and fuck you too.

I'm a Republican, dumbass

I'm gay, I've been called far worse tan a faggot.

While you may be right that the majority won't act on that stuff, or just doesn't believe it, there is a large number that does. The books give instructions on how to spread the religion and that's through lying and/or flat out conquest. Look at how he conquered Mecca.

Islam hasn't been properly reformed and being naive about it and defending it as it is just enables them. I'm not saying to hate all Muslims like most here do, but again it's goal is to spread by any means necessary. It's not just a meme that Europe is being taken over. It's mecca all over again. What else would you do if you needed to take over a city or country that was stronger than you? Attack them head on? No. Muhammed wasn't an idiot, he wrote subversion into the religion itself.

Why do you not think that the muslims themselves in their own mind are not pursuing a noble cause? Seriously, it shouldn't be a surprise that people who fight for a cause usually believe in it.

After all, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. A martyr is a martyr.

I'm not saying that. They are. As I said here jihad is the highest praise they can give. I was responding to his illogical argument. I am however saying it needs to be reformed. That's obviously easier said than done but making excuses for it won't help.

It would be like if there was a cult that was obsessed with turning people into pillars of salt because God did it in the old testament. Or actually sacrificing your kid or something. Or if Jesus was a warlord that conquered cities and told you to do anything necessary to win.

Let me be clear - I'm not a fan of islam nor am I defending it. However, I feel it's my duty to break the mold of the anti-islam hugbox that this board is, because my experience is different and the generalizations usually unfair.

However, let's be clear - muslims in their home countries are different than the ones who immigrate. Immigrant muslims are usually pieces of shit. Ones living in their own country can be respectable.

They can also kill gay people.

Good. I'm not like a lot of others here. I find it interesting but at the same time I hate the oblivious (not saying you are).

Check out it's good. Need others like him.

>ones living in their own country can be respectable
>sharia
>respectable

Islam is not a problem imo
Monkeys wich follows it - are.

NO, we cannot, you fucking ugly Kike shill. Go neck yourself, youo filthy of crap. You don't come in to my house and tell me to get my feet of the table, you gay faggotalskdf;laknsdv;laknsd;lkvna;slkdnf;alsdnf;alksdvl;aksdf;lkasd;lfkas;dlkfal;skdfma;sldkfm;alskdf;alskdf;alsdkm

How is it not a problem?

>Then what good things islam brings?

Nothing good and nothing bad. To say Syria, Palestine or Iraq are shit because of Islam would be equally as false as saying UAE and Qatar are so wealthy and prosperous because of Islam.

It's just an ideology, a tool for governing people. Just like nationalism, just like Christianity used to be before it was mostly abandoned in favour of nationalism. There is qualitatively no difference in Russian or Assad's soldier fighting and possibly dying because his officer told him to versus an ISIS or rebel fighter doing the same because a cleric told him to do it.

>We are talking about people agreeing with killing apostates and supporting suicide bombings, not putting your country first or (ideally) helping places have democracy.

Do you not understand how this sounds? You would support capital punishment for treason (and indeed how many Americans have called for Snowden's or Brady's execution) because it erodes the political organization you're used to, but at the same time can't understand how someone would call for execution of people who erode whatever political organization they're used to - and make no mistake Islam in majority of Middle East is closer to statehood than to religion, because the local states are so weak (again in no small part thanks to foreign interventions).

The same goes for spreading of democracy. You find the secular ideology you're used to to be noble and supreme. Someone else finds a deistic ideology to which they're used to to be noble and supreme.

The zeal in your post is literally pushing my point home.

>Immigrant muslims are usually pieces of shit.

I have to disagree. Usually whenever they're successful in their domain, whether it's entrepreneurial or in whatever (better) profession they work in, they tend to be nice people. similar to natives, but when you add poverty to immigrants, it becomes a shit show. similar to natives, just that with immigration the likely hood of poverty is far greater.

apart from that you also have to keep in mind that shitty behaviour gets way more attention than going your way without making problems.

Strawman 101, people.

your the first person ive ever seen on this board to make that distinction

Islam works in Muslim countries, a Pious Muslim even a Moderate one living in a foreign country will have a hard time accepting things the way they are because of the way Islam operates

>I'm gay
You do know that Islam has a directive to kill us brutally right?

Never have I ever seen a Muslim who doesn't absolutely hate gays. If they want to kill me I fucking hate them too and for this I will support any initiative for keeping them out of this country as a protective measure for my own life

Well, fun story is that I recently went to a wedding in a church with my unmarried long term girlfriend. When the people in the church found out we were unmarried, I just felt death stares everywhere. I felt more harm was wished on me in that afternoon than in the whole 3 years I interacted with muslims.

Most religious people are smug insecure assholes

You think I'm defending Islam? I'm really not. I don't like Islam.

It becomes peace when everyone has become a muslim. Until then it's murder murder war war war.

And then, when everyone is a muslim, we'll have peace for a few seconds, then start killing eachother because some muslims are the wrong type of muslim, and some muslims aren't extreme enough in their belief - so it's back to murdering and war! Yay!

All the informations are wellknown

The fundaments of this religion are inhuman crimes and war, therefore the ones strictly following it with autism are evil while the majority doesn't follow it that strictly because of their morals

Not all islamists are evil, but the religion is based on war, rapes, pedophilia, racism, etc and is partially praising it.

I have been to several islamic countries. Maroco, Tunisia, Turkey and Jordan. Most of the people are really nice and I never had problems because I was an infidel or whatever.
However I would not go to Saudi-Arabia or UEA or so. They execute people like ISIS for being gay. They are Whabist extremist and they use their oil money to brainwash all Arabic countries in beliving that their Islam is the only true Islam

By the way, being a follower of islam is like praising fritzl's 'way of life' while complaining that you are just trying to live your own life and nobody should judge it

>Can we discuss Islam, peacefully,
Yes, as long as there is no muslim in the room.

Having been there, it's not really that bad. It's not like you have a need to have gay sex in front of a mosque with packs of cocaine strapped to your chest.

Just don't do things which are not allowed and nothing bad will happen. Most of the time, they are things which are not (morally) accepted in the west either.

>Even though "spreading democracy" is mostly a ploy, it's noble in its merit in the heads of the uninformed.

I already noted that. I'm not disagreeing with you on that point but your argument boils down to

>dummy A thinks X is noble and it is bad
>dummy B thinks Y is noble and it is bad
>therefore both are fine = checkmate nerds

Do you not see that?

>therefore both are fine = checkmate nerds

I'm not saying they're both fine, I'm saying they're both the same.

>I just want a factual discussion
>factual
Do not use this word here, we have some sort of facts autism. Are you ready for the fact and statistic train?

Anecdotal Evidence Fallacy

Relevant: an IQ^2 debate

youtu.be/rh34Xsq7D_A

Spoiler alert, the pro-Islam debaters get fucking rekt

That's retarded.No different than saying "voting for trump is basically saying that hitler did nothing wrong."

Anecdotal evidence fallacy

Yeah, I've seen that. I was labeled a racist for using an FBI report on race and crime. Liberals hate facts

Protip: once every one is a Muslim, there will be peace only once everyone is not a moderate Muslim.
Then, there will be peace only when everyone is radical as fuck.
We can theorize that then, there will be only peace once everyone is a bloodthirsty animal.

So what the hell is your point? Lol

Look at my other posts im not your average muslim hating poltard. I don't like the religion but I find it very interesting.

It's not an anecdotal fallacy. Having gay sex in public with cocaine strapped to your chest is not a human right anywhere.

No, liberals have no problem with facts when it goes there ways. Liberals have a problem with pro white things.

Is it my fault if facts are pro white?

There is a fundamental difference.

Christianity is a religion.

Islam is a political, legal and religious system. It permeates all layers of society. Sharia ruled countries dont have constitutions, or civil law. They have the quran, and the hadith.

Even in the darkest age of the spanish inquisition, we had civil authorities and religious authorities. Civil laws and courts, and religious laws and courts. That is not the case in the muslim world. EVERYTHING is islam.

Since i live in this shithole, i was offered compensation for attending religious classes, you know, shit where you learn about Islam.
At first they tell you stories, anecdotes, ballads and whatnot, all related to "historic" events descried in Qur'an.
>boredasf.jpg
Then they teach you prayers on Arabic. Total bullshit imo. If there was a God, you could just pray to him on your native language, not having to learn that unnecessarily complicated sandnigger language.
>Havetomemorizethisshit.gif
Then they'll teach you how to read and write the actual language, reading it from handbooks and, finally, the Qur'an.
Everyone has to buy one of their own.
>smallfortune.jpeg
Now that you've spent around 2 years learning how Islam is the most beautiful thing ever, and that there is an afterlife worth to die for, you can go out in the world and, driven by the enthusiastic epiphany that by conversion of others to your side, you'll magically win points with the Lord. Who does not convert, does not understand.
>We will make them understand.
>We get that sweet piece of Heaven
>Inshallah
>mfw

Here's your redpill for the day :

there are religions of peace. Abrahamic religions are not among them, they are based on xenophobia and war.

Try another one that wasn't written by Jews

All of them are a dictature or a borderline dictature.
Muslims are nice people when the 1% of them who want to kill you are forced to keep cool. Set them free or send them in a free country and see what happen.

Not all people need the same way of life. As long as we all have the policies fitting our needs, the world will be a good place.

Lol @ Literally an internet poll

>lies, damned lies & statistics

>I was labeled a racist for using an FBI report on race and crime

That's stupuid. Islam is a religion and not a race.

BTW I am not pro-Islam. I just wanted to point out that there is not only black and white. I have only been to rather liberal muslim countries (at least at the time I was there)
You even get alcohol there and if you don't get shitface like hell and piss at a mosque you will have no problems

North Africa is probably the safest place for "Infidels", Saudi Arabia and UAE are also okay to visit as long as you dont disclose the fact that you are gay, i mean UAE has Dubai, they couldnt care less if your a christian as long as you spend money there

youtube.com/watch?v=udV8QY1HZRY

>5 minuets into the quran to see how bad it actually is
>Already talking about stoning non believers

"23. And if you are in doubt about what We
have revealed to Our servant, then produce a
chapter like these, and call your witnesses
apart from Allah, if you are truthful.
24. But if you do not—and you will not—then
beware the Fire whose fuel is people and
stones, prepared for the disbelievers."

ITT:

> white men who want to (((forget))) their women have (((((((cucked)))))) them

Is goat-fucking Ad-hominem?

how is that pro white? if it weren't for environmental hippies the whites supremacists would be dead last in kill count.

Not all religions are equal in the matter of violence. Some religions never have been violent. Others left that way centuries ago. Today, only one major religion use violence.

>Islam- Religion of Peace, or oppressive/violent?
islam comes from "al-slim" meaning submission.
>Islamic Extremists- adherents or just extremists?
Adherents that follow the religion to the letter
>Muslims- peaceful, or violent?
Violent

thereligionofpeace.com/

Whites are the peaceful one. We are the only culture in the world to reprove slavery, to value human right, to send humanitarian help, we gave the world 99% of the good things it have and are one of the few who can offer new technologies to mankind.

God told Bush to go to war.
theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa
>One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."

I'm not pro-Islam, but that idiocy isn't just confined to Islam.

I live in northeast Pennsylvania. Over the last few decades, the population here has skyrocketed as people moved from New York City and urban parts of New Jersey to escape the city.

They move here to escape the shitty place they came from and then fight tooth and nail to make this area just like where they came from.