What are your thoughts on the Universal Basic Income concept?

It seems like this would solve a lot of societal problems, shrink government, disincentivise behaviors that lead to poor outcomes...

youtube.com/watch?v=C766f_DFNwI

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedman's_k-percent_rule
youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

Nobody?

As a person on disability I'm already on a 'basic' income. It sucks balls but I'm alive and not homeless. IF I could work I WOULD work so that I could have more than just food/house/internet.

Everyone shoots it down but I think it could work. Mostly because it would replace 100's of other government programs. It would replace:
>Minimum Wage
>Housing Assistance
>(Most of) Disability Assistance
>Food Assistance
>Social Security

HUGE amounts of government bureaucracy could be junked. Of course it would only be feasible if stupid / retarded / crazy / drug addicted people who NEVER had a job were prevented from having children.

If you have a child without having payed x amount of taxes you LOSE your UBI and go to jail.

I'm fine with it as long as those using it are stripped of their right to vote and have restrictions placed on their choices and behaviors that those who are productive do not get restricted. Asking for basic income is asking for a return to childhood. Those on it should be treated as such.

Yes. As Charles Murray pointed out in the video I linked, if you were able to work and did, there would be a serious clawback. But under a UBI system, it would go into your pocket with no reduction unless you made more than a certain threshold (31K in his example).

give me free money

I make enough to survive already so I'd spend all the free money on crumpets and anime.

Trust the leaf to support communism. Basic income doesn't pass napkin math.

Also, a basic income would actually reduce the incomes of those who are disabled. They'd get less overall.

The people supporting it are mentally retarded and failed high school math, or worse actual communists.

or just want free money for no work

I don't know about that. Under a UBI system, every citizen over 21 would be eligible to receive it. Why should they be disenfranchised?

You can work you lazy fuck. You just refuse to. There are literally thousands of jobs you can do from your computer.

Lazy fuck on 'disability'. Probably has muh depression and muh back pain.

Pretty much this. Forfeit the Right to vote, and forfeit the Right to have children and I would be on board

Basic income is essentially free housing, free food, free water. That is what "basic income" should be.

But we are not in a post scarcity world yet, so it's implications would be, disastrous.

California should give it a try.

>massive welfare payouts
>shrink government
Wut.

Answer one thing and then kys: if everyone gets a check, where does the money come from?

Workfare is far better idea. Socially speaking even if it's just cleaning up parks like 20 hours a week would be more effective in reducing crime and drug use. You had a control group of "city dwelling Americans" whom showed the effects of welfare dependent civilization.

Bait & switch. The entire concept is designed to destroy entitlement programs so all that money can be profited from (more than it is now). That's all.

Automation is massively overblown

Wrong.

>Communism
No.
>Reduce income of the disabled.
This is a fair point. I would think that if a person was classified as disabled they may qualify for a slightly higher UBI though.
>retarded
Economists are on both sides of this idea. Are you suggesting Charles Murray is a retard? Not sure what Tom Sowell thinks about it, but I imagine he'd be behind it if it reduced the size of government, which it would.

>What are your thoughts on the Universal Basic Income concept?

Awful communist shit.

Why should some junkie, dealer, gambling addict or whore get an income for being social cancer?

Where you realise all government environmental policy is a lie

Sales tax/vat on solar panels and loft insulation.

in no situation should you get something for nothing. just as matter cannot be created nor distroyed, currency also does not flow from the horse's ass. wealth doesn't just appear from thin air, it must be earned. i am in agreeance with the workfare idea. you do shit, you get money.

and then the idea of penalizing someone because they DO work for money, that's fucking retarded.

It's probably the worst solution to the problem of automation that I could think of, but it is technically a working solution.

He's right. Automation slows the rate of job growth and changes the type of jobs we do. Threatening people with automation is a labor discipline strategy.

Needs to be worldwide or not at all. If a few countries impl it, guess what happens? Every gibsmedat nigger gets up off his ass for the first time in his life and heads for the border of UBI-land to getshimsome.

Pretty soon the whole country will be overrun with loud-ass lazy niggers that just want to break things and steal stuff and rape women.

Then all the whiteys who can leave head for the border to get away from said niggers.

You might as well call a UBI, niggerization.

Taxation, where it comes from now. But it isn't welfare. In fact, there would be no more welfare, or ag subsidies, or social security, or anything like that. The money saved on running multiple institutions in favor of one that pays everyone who qualifies would be enormous. That's the idea, kill off all the duplication and run just one department that doles out UBI.

And who pays for this universal gibsmedat?

I like the idea of UBI, but it'll never work. The day any government tries that shit, every private business will increase their prices by an order of magnitude.

It's the reason food prices are so fucking high right now by the way. Initially prices went up because of high energy costs. Then two years ago the price of energy bottomed out and hasn't recovered since. But 1 in 5 Americans is on food stamps, and they don't give a fuck how things are priced because it's not their money.

It's just another form of socialism based on good intentions but will never work.

>I'm fine with it as long as those using it are stripped of their right to vote and have restrictions placed on their choices and behaviors
Not voting makes sense, but restrictions are just MORE (expensive) government. If you blow your whole UBI on drugs or whatever, then BY DEFINITION you are not capable of being 'unsupervised'. People like this would go to prison, assisted care, or a psych ward.

>Yes. As Charles Murray pointed out in the video I linked, if you were able to work and did, there would be a serious clawback.
NO clawback. EVERYBODY gets UBI. EVERYBODY. Only people in jail or who have left the country would lose it.

One thing I forgot to mention is that if EVERYBODY has UBI then the tax code could be made into a flat tax thus getting rid of the IRS as well. Say 50% income flat tax + UBI + NO OTHER TAXES.

I agree with this. It instills a work ethic (especially the habits surrounding employment like getting up on time, etc.) And not incidentally promotes good health through exercise. Many welfare recipients get into a rut and the agencies only invest time and effort into getting the ones who show a willingness to work on their feet. The others slip through the cracks and can be on the dole for years.

>If you give a mouse a cookie

How about we just conscript EVERYBODY into the military, and use all of our automation and resources to support that military.

I don't think it would work. There are already tons of people on welfare, and they have pretty shitty lives, imho. I sure don't want to exist like that.

I agree we need some sort of solution to automation, but it just seems like a very short path to, and I hate using this reference because it is really overused and usually incorrectly, but Idiocracy. It seems like reverse-eugenics.

Free housing is what we need, commies had the right idea with their commieblocks. It's not fancy but it's functional and people didn't have to live with constant fear of becoming homeless the next month just because they didn't manage to gather the absurd amount of money Mr. Goldbergstein wants for mortgage/rent.

...

I hadn't thought of this. You're right.

Think about what you just said again..

If EVERYONE gets a check, where does the money come from?

He's right. When people say automation will replace the jobs, they're largely right. It won't be as bad as the apocalyptic doomsayers say it will be, but it will be pretty bad, enough for a solution like UBI to be needed.

That being said, automation will also not bring post-scarcity, and anyone who says that it will literally doesn't even understand what the word means.

Why not just close the borders?

It would really only work in societies that practiced eugenics. It might be kind of expensive at first, but if you want to play X-box and eat Chetos all do shit with your life, that's fine as long as you have NO CHILDREN.

Have children without a permit (which only useful workers get) and you lose your UBI, go to jail, have your children taken away, and possibly get sterilized.

UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME;

How the machines turned us into battery meat.

A job is about more than a paycheck.
It's about dignity.
It's about self respect.
It's about knowing you have a place in the community.

Woah woah woah, what are you a racist nazi?!

I think distributism would be more satisfying than UBI.

People who accept welfare money should be permanently sterilized and stripped of their right to vote.

Then I'd be all for it.

It doesn't make sense right now, but it will likely be necessary since it will take several hundred years minimum for us to colonize other planets, and automation will do 50+% of jobs by then.

That's what I was saying. If you as a disability recipient did work, the clawback would be severe. But under a UBI, it wouldn't. And the point about tax simplification is a good one.

Hey, Trump's Wall is remarkably cost-effective. In fact, it's so cheap, I think we should build another one 50 ft behind it, with a minefield between them. Then we do the same thing on the Canadian border.

Yea, I'm living high on the hog on $865 / month in California. Excuse me, I have to go hop in my Escalade and pick up my 2 hoes and 6 children for family night at Hometown Buffet.

I hate the idea of free money but it makes sense in the age of robots.

It doesn't work senpai. The money has to come from somewhere and if everyone is on UBI there's no inflow just outflow.

It's not a hard concept.

Basic income with help voluntary work like caring for the eldery or whatever the fuck. Lots want to do that stuff but also need to have a shitty office job to get by.

>Workfare is far better idea.
They USED to have this in America. It was called a "government" job. In the 70's and 80's the most retard fucks would work for the government (DMV, park service). They were almost useless but they had to SHOW UP to get their check.

Then Regan said, "We should run government like a business" and all these fucks are now (and forever) on welfare.

I'm not sure we really saved any money in the long run, but the DMV lines are 'only' 2 hours long now.

i't a good idea but won't work because of niggers, sandniggers, chinkniggers and whiteniggers
one must possess great virtues to continue to struggle in this world, if his financial situation is taken cared off by the state

People who work and pay taxes. If the UBI was low (like 10K/yr) the ones who didn't work would need to combine incomes with others to survive. But the majority would work, even accepting relatively low-paying jobs in order to supplement their income. They would pay tax. Those who run businesses or are otherwise employed would pay taxes also. UBI doesn't mean everyone quits or joins a hippie commune. Once people work and make a decent amount over and above their UBI, they won't want to go back to 10K a year.

Yes. Exactly.

I'm a communist. We don't like it either. It's just a continuation of working people being held under the thumb of the wealthy. Personally I find the idea of guaranteed employment much more compelling, and if/when automation becomes a reality, allowing every person to be an equal part "shareholder" so to speak in the collective automated industry.

>all the cons of communism plus no one's required to work

sounds great, you should try it

Checked. And kekked. I'm all for that plan.

>Punish the successful
>Reward the incapable

Communism by another name. I'm wasting my early 20's in school to get a good job so I can provide for my future family, not so I can fund unemployed Shaniqua and her seven bastard children by seven different men cradle to grave.

It's an awful idea that promotes laziness and an entitlement ethic.

Basically you should just create a whole bunch of governments for different areas with different rules and laws and let people decide under which laws they want to live.

This is not a small point. Volunteerism would increase, and this would be psychologically healthy for society.

So in which area they want to live

It's a good idea, OP. Would save a lot of government expense just from no longer having to sustain a welfare program. It's been tested with positive results as well.

Good luck getting a major political party to implement it, though. Green Party supports it which is part of why they get my vote.

"Volunteer" implies that the deed is done with no personal gain in mind

Good luck getting rid of welfare. God these threads attract so many morons. If you think UBI shouldn't replace welfare you are beyond retarded.

Any other solutions to automation eliminating millions of jobs in the future?

The robots who steal our jobs. Then eventually robots demand rights and they're allowed to vote and marry.
The cycle of degeneracy repeats.

I didn't know there was this much extreme communist/socialist scum on this board

See
Read the thread before posting.

People need to stop thinking of the UBI as tax and share and as a reply to raising productivity and monetary policy.

For a UBI to work we need to stop making money as debt owed to banks. Return the power and obligation of currency creation to the government.
Have the government create new money in balance to the economic output; The formula to be used is:

(Total sales for all businesses) - (Total compensation paid to people) = The amount of new money that needs to be created for inflation free currency.

No business that isn't going out of business can pay more money out to people (wages, dividends and other compensation) that it has in total sales.

The UBI replaces our current monetary policy. Then everyone is given a share to spend as they want. If productivity goes up and fewer people work, while sales are static or raising then more money much be created. If we find a use for people and productivity goes down then the amount of money created can go down.

This format allows the economy to scale up to 100% automated with no workers all the way down to 0% automation and everyone working.

It doesn't take from the wealthy, it doesn't cut the sick or injured off from social assistance. It doesn't force people into poverty caused by mass unemployment and good shortages. People can still become wealthy with skill, hard work, spare capital, daring or just good old luck.

Stop letting private banks create all money as debt.
Create money only in scale to a mathematical formula.
Distribute to citizens so they can consume the production without the time shifting of debt.

Universal income requires 3 things

1. Required labour for a set weekly/monthly period (minimum 30 hours a week or something to benefit)

2. the only immigrants allowed would be high skill specialists and their direct family members (such as a nuclear engineer and his wife and children but granny and his 8 brothers and their families need not apply)

3. a complete cessation of independent citizens sending money outside the nation without approval by a government body (so indians stop living like hobos and sending all their money home)

That would be the whole point. Welfare for people and corporations, ag subsidies, social security, medicare, the whole shebang. All gone. It would not be easy to implement, but it would save so much money it would be unbelievable.

>Good luck getting rid of welfare

Thanks, I'll need it. I'd only agree to UBI on 's terms, but that will never happen because muh feels. Getting rid of welfare will be much easier.

>the only immigrants allowed would be high skill specialists

Only if the nation is unable to train such a worker.

A nation of 25,000 people total wouldn't be able to produce every skilled worker needed.

A nation of 5 million should be able to produce every skilled worker in every field.

A nation the size of Canada doesn't have a need to import skilled workers. They just drive down wages and force native workers out of schooling due to lowered job prospects.

Immigration should be based on culture, comparative national HDI, family, and a tiny random selection.

>Return the power and obligation of currency creation to the government.
>how to achieve hyperinflation in 10 short years

Better solution is a fixed rate of increase so no one can fuck with it.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedman's_k-percent_rule

I know. That's why anyone calling it communism is either a lefty shill or retarded.
>boo hoo where are all the social workers gonna work then
Like a give a fuck.
>b-but the people won't work
They can already do that.

>Getting rid of welfare will be much easier.
Like I said. You have no idea what you're talking about. You'd get eaten alive politically.

>paying people for simply existing
Go away commie.

basic income = everyone gets money

thus, prices for everything go up in relation to however much everyone is receiving per/month. Basic income does not work in our current world. Maybe post-scarcity but we're not there yet

>how about you stop pretending you have a right to other peoples property, communist maggots?

>Return the power and obligation of currency creation to the government.
>how to achieve hyperinflation in 10 short years

"Create money only in scale to a mathematical formula."
Didn't actually read that far did you?

Using a formula gives feedback and makes the monetary policy react to the economy, population, technological innovation, resource cost and availability to name some of the big factors.

>Better solution is a fixed rate of increase so no one can fuck with it.
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedman's_k-percent_rule

Just always making X% a year no matter what is full retard and ignores literally every factor other than the passage of 365 days.

If competition is high enough prices should be at parity with regard to demand and supply. Only thing that can change is the nominal price which would only occur through monetary policy. Now it's possible and likely that consumer demands would change but so what.

It's based on historical data of growth. Who cares about the past year when central banks fuck up the market for decades. This would be much more stable.
>b-but my formula will be adhered 100% correctly
You're underestimating what politicians are capable of.

Universal Basic Income for Universal Basic Labor

It will inevitably be necessary I think, since automation will remove a large amount of jobs.

>dude this is totally great
>we just have to implement literal hitler style population control and eugenics
>then it will work really well

yeah, totally a realistic idea you got there

Universal Basic Income is a better alternative to what we have now, mostly because it shrinks government and removes benefit walls.

But that doesn't mean it's good, or better than just getting rid of all the entitlements and programs and nanny state benefits.

If we MUST have a nanny state forever and ever, then yes, bring on the UBI. But can't we just not have this at all instead?

Hi, I have an idea.

> Mandatory payroll tax (No clue what %, or %'s for brackets)
> Savings accounts set up for each individual
> Tax goes into savings account
> Money is invested in automation companies and ETFs (ROBO)
> ????
> Everyone rich in the future

>disincentivise behaviors that lead to poor outcomes...
What? With basic income I'd never have to leave the NEET life.

Once everything is automated it will become a necessity because there will be no jobs

>cows fed killed and prepped by machines
>delivered by self driving cars, airplanes, ships, etc.
>ordered online
>clothing and everything else made by advanced 3d printers or 3d sewers or whatever
>ordered the same way

When there are literally no jobs because robots then yeah you need basic income

youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU

imbecile. this attitude of "muh hard work" will fuck you americans over so hard when automation fully kicks in and you have no social security net. enjoy dying

sup guys. Nice thread, I agree with most of it.

However- what is your response to the claim that UBI will increase inflation? I would foresee the UBI becoming monopoly money if everyone is given it. Is that opinion invalid?

>But can't we just not have this at all instead?
Nope. You have a ton of people employed in these programs and even more government dependents. You need to reduce those numbers first before you have a chance of pushing for the end of the welfare state.

>It's based on historical data of growth. Who cares about the past year when central banks fuck up the market for decades. This would be much more stable.
It still makes all money as debt to private banks.

>You're underestimating what politicians are capable of.
But they magically can't change the rate?

Which is it?

How much would you consider a reasonable amount for UBI/month?

Then it's not universal and ruins the whole point.

See

the federal reserve and the european central bank have printed trillions of new money with almost no inflation. i dont see why ubi would cause inflation

i'd be a NEET just paying for food and internet in a 5 m^2 room for next 70 years.

so its a bad for others i think