We all know that USA's army is by far the strongest and most efficient in the world...

We all know that USA's army is by far the strongest and most efficient in the world, but in hypothetical pre-war scenario what are the possibilities for China to mass-produce an army to rival USA's strength? Can they do it in a short span of time, given the number of people and resources?

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No.

short of literal turncoats taking control of america's shit for china, or actual ayy lmao aliens, no.

The Chinese military is trained and specializes in subduing rioting citizens, not fending off invasion

They're only good for massacring students.

china is an industrial powerhouse. that being said, there will never be a real "war" between china and USA. they respect each other too much to actually invade. you might see trade wars or proxy wars but the two are too dependent on each other to actually destroy one another.

Look at the short list of flaws:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingkang_incident#Second_Siege_of_Bianjing

The Chinese military is a paper dragon. The US military can destroy China in 48 hours.

Yes, I understand that any "big" war would put the whole world in deep shit, I was just wondering about their potential if they wanted to do so anyways

The us would crush china. Chinas only strength is that they have unlimited clone troopers but they are pretty fucking useless since they cannot cross the pacific to get to the US and the US navy is just out classing the chinks in every aspect.

So realisticly speaking china will be boxed in in their see region , that means the only thing that is left for china is the Air , which they also get outclassed by the US.
But the US cannot attack china in a naval invasion , that would be to costly in lives and the amount of soilders that would be required to fight against all the chinks would be enourmous.
This conflict would turn out to be a war of attrition , in where the US still has acces to most of the world to trade with while China is effectivly blocked off from the sea . I dont know about chinas food producution but i am certain that they import alot of food , with that cut off by an US see blockade i would forsee alot of Chink riots for food and shit. The longer it continues the more likely it is for a civil war to happen.

now? not even close, us >> china unless something really really strange happens (yellowstone/ cali secession war/ ...)
30 years later? maybe? nobody knows

>We all know that USA's army is by far the strongest and most efficient in the world
But that's Russia, you trained macaco.

Quality > Quantity

Just like any other scenario with a nuclear power, if things ever do kick off, well, good luck

Even the best missile defense systems on earth cant intercept 100% of ICBMs. If anyone were to consistently rain absolute hellfire on us were irrelevant overnight. The only thing preventing this is we just so happen to temporarily have a bigger dick.

>We all know that USA's army is by far the strongest and most efficient in the world
>efficient
BAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHHAHAHA
Are you retarded OP?

youtube.com/watch?v=_5BxwVfWt5I

Chinese soldiers are untested in battle and cannot operate on the fly like American soldiers. They still have the antiquated chain of command shit at all times.

America has been spending more on defense than the next ten nations combined for well over a decade. They would have an awful lot of catching up to do, militarily.
Pic related. This is a small fraction of America's carrier fleet. China has ONE carrier.

This isn't the clone wars, we need another hundred years for that

Also, worldwide there are about 25,000 combat aircraft. About 18,000 of them are American.

The thing they never tell you is that China and Russia don't need a big army like the US. This is because they own the strategic heartland of the Eurasian continent.

If you look at US forces structure, it's all about projecting power, that's why they have a huge navy and air force. if you look at their structure, it's all about securing their borders and airspace. They have put all their money into S400 anti aircraft systems and developed long range hypersonic anti ship missiles that make it impossible for the carrier fleet to get close enough to attack.

By virtue of controlling the heartland they don't really need to project power because strategically they are the center of power.

Look at the position of all us bases. They surround the heartland, but there is no way to get in and control it. The biggest effort was Afghanistan, 15 years and a few trillion dollars got them nowhere.

Eventually the US will run out of money and have to go home but China and Russia won't be going anywhere because they are already at home.

We also have a sub or two lying around.

>The Chinese military is a paper dragon. The US military can destroy China in 48 hours.

>repeating meme military strategies

Fly in all the slants you want, you cannot invade the US.

Oh cool a battle from almost a thousand years ago.

They don't have the same objectives or doctrine as us. Why play us at our game rather than develop their own?

From the few times we've been briefed on China, the consensus is that we really shouldn't underestimate China, especially when fighting on their own soil, but we also know their tech is rapidly falling apart if it isn't already unstable, and their average foot soldier is on par with something like 3rd phase of boot camp female Marine recruits. Our tech and our special operations forces unequivocally blow away our Chinese counterparts.

HK got it right.
All china wants for the next half century is regional control.

I disagree. I have traveled all over America and we have a substanial military presence pretty much throughout America.

Pic related. It's a map of all our heavy bomber bases.

Without international trade China dies on the Eurasian heartland

With mass conscription, and full war time production, they might be able to zerg rush. But if the USA countered similarly, the tables would turn fast and hard.

He is talking about bases in Eurasia

I disagree with his assessment.

The US has 3 massive aircraft carriers

South Korea
Taiwan
Japan

It doesn't need more to sink China

so your idea ... is to take Chinese quality control standards ... and speed them up?
Is this the worst idea anyone has ever had?

Because OP's question was if China could muster the forces to defeat America in a war. The answer to that question is no. Now if you want to muse about a variety of what Game of Thrones senario could play out where China defeats us with subterfuge, deceit and bare breasts, then you will have to start your own thread.

>>All china wants for the next half century is regional control.
offensive realists and other IR scholars don't think this is slightly less aggressive than soviet or american foreign policy. in fact, attaining then maintaining regional hegemony is the source of aggressive american foreign policy

>short span of time

Define "short span."

And, no. They could not do it in secret.

Could they do a "secret" build up, increase their capacity more than intelligence estimates would be accurate for? Yes. There would be limits as to how much and what type. And, a strategically significant build up of this sort would take "longer," probably "long enough" that there would not be a surprise, short span build up.

If the question relates to China countering other militaries, for smaller ones and others that are more compromised, it's possible a short span, surprise build up could be achieved. For example, if China wanted to take out North Korea or the Philippines, I'd rate their odds of success much higher. If they wanted to take out South Korea, I'd say their odds would be much lower.

For another variant, if China wanted to take out Russia with a surprise, short term build up, their odds would not be "good," but they would be much better than an attempt on the U.S. or one of the major EU powers such as Germany or France. Combination of location and capabilities of the opponent would need to be defined.

Also, factor in allies. If China wanted to take out Australia, they would have to also fool the U.S. and Japan (for the least examples) as well as Australia for a successful operation.

Most of the world is watching China very closely, with a lot of assets both in and out of the country. Any major build up would get noticed, and shared among intelligence agencies (especially allied ones). The best they can hope for at this time is to disguise the size of such a build up, and to target a (smallish) country that the rest of the world doesn't care much about.

Modern satellite surveillance makes it more difficult by the day, and that doesn't factor in economic data, internet traffic, etc.

Reverse the question and, also, No. The U.S. could not do such a thing either. Nor India.

This is correct

America has the 3 largest air forces in the world.

>US Air Force
>US Navy
>AMARG

Marine aviation with the arrival of F-35s will be more capable than most other air forces as well.

>developed long range hypersonic anti ship missiles that make it impossible for the carrier fleet to get close enough to attack.

Propaganda. Those missiles have never even been tested

As much as I hate those yellow monkeys, I believe the West frequently underestimates their war-fighting capacity. They're a bit like America before Pearl Harbor, a sleeping military-industrial "giant" that may eat the World if awoken. Imagine how many guns, tanks, planes, ships, and missiles their factories could churn out if their industrial capacity was fully converted to serve a wartime economy.

china has no force projection but america cannot invade china

With each passing year china gets closer and closer

But its still far behind russia. A better question would be, if china completely bankrolled russia, could russia do it?

I think so, but no one is gonna be rivaling US naval power anytime soon, it could be neutralized by a sub doctrine and hypersonic cruise missiles tho

A stalemate like this means Chinese victory due to the attrition of economics

their whole east coast would be destroyed though, and that's where their industry is concentrated

think outside the box, supercavitating torpedos seeded throughout the asia pacific, drone and swarm-intelligence to bypass CIWS, electronic and satellite warfare, the list goes on and on.

Tbqh the Russians have perfected the art of hybrid warfare against the West, their intelligence services won the long game

FUCKING STOP POSTING LIKE THAT REEEEEEEEE. get the fuck out or stop posting like a fag with lines in between ideas.

That's why they are building the Silk Road rail system to Europe

Bitch please

The US embargo would wtfrape china, its like when the US put sanction on russia and it only helped putin reorganize his economy, but this is the opposite, if the US started an embargo with ships and stuff and stopped paying their debts to china, china would be in deeeeeeeeeeep shit

China's economy is entirely based on exports.

China would be in a much worse position.

Look where that runs through and think how stable that will be.

Iron Silk road and Silk road only guarantee access to Eurasian markets... the biggest markets in the future are going to be Latin America, South East Asia, Africa and India, and of course the US and Oceania.

>China's economy is entirely based on exports.

not really and not for much longer, you realize that they have a domestic market of a billion and a half people, right ?

No, but so what, neither could we.

lel
China hasn't even achieved food self sufficiency.
Good luck with that attrition of economics.
Ah ... I long for the day when the chinks cannibalize each other again just like the old times. Like when the chinks exchanged their children to eat when the Chu state surrounded the Song in the Spring and Autumn period. Or maybe like battle of Suiyang where a few thousand chinks cannibalized a city of 30000. Even better, there's the Great Famine during the Great Leap Forward when flesh banquets were held. It would be great to witness such a sight in my lifetime.

Reminds me of Napoleon's delusional Continental System scheme.

I mean, a stalemate like this situation means the status quo continues = ergo, win for China. There is no point for them to force the hand of the West in this instance.

Contrasted to the US, which has refrained from attacking since 1950 (mcarthur wanted to nuke beijing then and there), and has gradually seen it's chance of balkanizing or fracturing China going down to near zero.

Global trade war in this current instance however has no winners. Even if the US enacts an embargo it can kiss goodbye to 10 years of economic growth, and say hello to civil strife or even war.

One thing that keeps coming to me in these scenarios when 'thinking outside the box' is those stories about aliens messing with nukes, activating them and then deactivating them in a soviet base, as if to send a message that they wouldnt allow us to basically explode themselves.

I think if the major govts KNEW for a FACT that nuclear war wont ever happen it would greatly change their calculus, make them more belligerant and agressive, and in some ways, might explain the US erratic behavior since the Korea war

do you have your posts in a bloc note and just copy/paste them in every thread about china ?

NUKES

I wish we had implemented the rods from the gods sattelite like in gi joe rise of cobra.

Tugsten rods weight Xyz tons dropepd from orbit, gravity make it hit chinese population center with large kinetic forces, with friction fire explosion supposedly more force than some nukes

wonder how it compares to hydrogen bomb

yes they do have nukes as well

And how are they going to absorb the overproduction of goods that China has?

They already have dozens of ghost cities, what else are they gonna do? Try the crazy ass voucher scheme Japan did so people buy shit for less than retail price?

The Chinese economy is fraudulent and depends on massive unsustainable growth.

Doubtful. The economic warfare would also be aggressive, and the U.S. would have the edge in OPs scenario where China is the aggressor.

First off, China holds a chunk of U.S. debt ... which are assets that would suddenly become unavailable to China in a war footing. That advantage in the current world marketplace would become a liability in the course of about an hour, or less.

China would find itself thin of allies, so the world economic balance would favor the U.S. The EU and India would side economically with the U.S., not to mention Japan, Saudi Arabia, Israel and Australia. Just to name the larger economies.

China would find itself starved for oil as a limiting resource, and food & clean water would also start to be a problem much more rapidly for China. That large population that OP referenced for a quick build up also needs to be fed and taken care of ... something the U.S. and the rest of the world could out-siege by a factor of 10:1, if not 20:1.

China imports enormous amounts of food, as well as harvests the oceans (and by "harvest," I mean "rape"). That supply option would get cut off almost instantly.

Other related note, no matter what sort of navy China built, the U.S. would put it at the bottom of the ocean pretty quickly, so loss of ocean force projection and defense would limit options rapidly, including supply lines.

I will also point out: nobody would emerge with a "Victory!" out of such a contest. The whole world would get fukt hard. There would just be variations on who loses the least ... which would be the U.S. of the two.

You realize that China's economy is predicated on cheap capital to allocate towards manufacturing, right? That domestic market is largely poor as shit. Worse, Chinese producers don't produce what China's growing middle class want to buy.

China has a small amount of nukes and don't mate their warheads to the delivery systems. In addition they reserve a no first use policy

>>I think if the major govts KNEW for a FACT that nuclear war wont ever happen it would greatly change their calculus, make them more belligerant and agressive, and in some ways, might explain the US erratic behavior since the Korea war

isn't this exactly the stability-instability paradox? the cold war powers and current powers seem to know each other's limits yet they get involved in messy shit anyways.

Economic growth for who?

As trump said, the us rebuild china, transfered all jobs and tech there, and now the US owes china, its like a magic trick

If there were no chinese guys doing dirt cheap labor, maybe they would have gone to mexico, maybe they would have stayed in the US, either way, if your companies can flee to a place that pays ppl 30-120 dollars a month to do a skilled factory job and then export back you will only get the bitter end of it

After first it might be awesome to buy something made in china for 20bucks that used to cost 200. But its not like this was an impossible goal to be achieved with doing stuff in the US, the greedy of the rich assholes and the absurdo corporate laws demanding people act like the greediest fuckers possible that ruined this whole shit

Normies don't realize this, or the fact that they don't even keep their ICBMs fueled.

US strongest yes.
Most efficient? They have more admirals than ships in their navy...

>We all know that USA's army is by far the strongest and most efficient in the world
>Strongest
Maybe
>Most efficient
No way

The stability-instability paradox is the shifting of metagames.

please refer to this when I say stalemate

I'm not in disagreement with you

something seems to be missing though. The US doesn't behave towards China as if the US could pull off a splendid first strike. If the US knew it had nuclear superiority, it wouldn't be afraid to bend over China in an instant

Actually, you are behind the ball here. Low cost manufacturing has been offshored to vietnam, indonesia and south east asia.

Chinese manufacturing is upscaling

McKinder would be proud of you, based hk

So basically pre-WWI america in south america.

>They already have dozens of ghost cities
literally a western MSM meme

>The Chinese economy is fraudulent and depends on massive unsustainable growth.
no it's not, they are still developing their infrastructure

you realize that you don't know what you are talking about ?
Their homemade brands are slowly overtaking western ones in almost all domains and they are transitioning from cheap labor manufacture to a middle class focused domestic economy.
They're even moving the low paying job to the -stan countries and vietnam

no one knows exactly what their nuclear program looks like, if you think they haven't been stockpiling you're delusional, and if the U.S. nuked first they'd expose themselves to worldwide sanctions.

Chinas nuclear doctrine and approach to warfighting is very interesting.

After living in the shadow of the USSR, particularly in the Sino-Soviet split, they possessed a massive disparity in nuclear arsenals.

It was born out of this disparity that despite them having nuclear weapons, they adopted a no first use policy and deliberately kept warheads separate to insure AGAINST a counterforce first strike.

It sounds stupid but it's really genius when you think about it.

An opposing nuclear power is far less likely to initiate a counterforce first strike if they KNOW for certain the Chinese are not in any position to even launch a first strike.

I expect Chinese nukes to stay at their relatively low number (300), but maybe this will expand after the THAAD network starts growing.

I say we gas them if we go to war. Drop a buch of vx or something and kill millions of chinks. Who would even care if a bunch of brainless gooks died.

>As trump said

Imbeciles listening to a know-nothing imbecile.

>Observe calmly; secure our position; cope with affairs calmly; hide our capacities and bide our time; be good at maintaining a low profile; and never claim leadership.

No because our navy can literally bomb every major Chinese city from the ocean

Be careful not to cut yourself on that edge, child.

Are you serious? Liaoning just admitted they've been supplying fake data for years.

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

chinas quality of material and engineering means 4/5 of whatever they made wouldnt work, and im being very generous there, its probably more like 9/10

besides chinks are the worst soldiers in the world bar non

Deng is easily one of the most brilliant statesmen in the last 50 years.
.
Their possession of nukes is a regional deterrent and is pretty much born out of the "no foreigners on the mainland" ethnic memory, which understandably, given the last 200 years, is troubled.

protip: all statistics are made up

...

Hasn't upscaled yet, and consumers tend to stigmatize low-quality producers for much longer than the period in which they are low-quality. Given China's record as of the past-since-1979, I'd be surprised if Chinese consumers didn't pay a premium for imported, untainted (even if just by recognition) goods. A more interesting problem is that China has a lot of different paths to failure now that it's at this point of the investment-driven model:

>China can't ease up on import controls without destabilizing its internal commercial paper market
>China also can't devaluate the Yuan to counterbalance this effect without crushing the Chinese domestic consumption market
>China hasn't been able to expand the domestic consumption market faster than it expands its internal debt market
>infrastructure investment payment schedules are drying up because the Yuan is still worth shit and infrastructure is only worth the value of labor it saves i.e if your currency is worth bupkis, infrastructure is literally worth less to you

There are historical analogies you should look at when referencing China; Brazil in the 1960s, Japan in the 1970s-80s, Germany in the 1930s.

Do you realize that you don't know what you're talking about? China isn't going to be capable of making that adjustment without extreme restructuring of its financial system.

And there's levels of that.

China's statistics make Enron look like anal-retentive accountants.

China doesn't teamwork well in dire situations. More of a what's do i get out of it mindset. They barely trust each other.

>Do you realize that you don't know what you're talking about? China isn't going to be capable of making that adjustment without extreme restructuring of its financial system.
What do you think they've been doing for the past decade ?

you're just biased because you're a weak mind unable to be impartial and realistic, 100% of statistics are made up to say whatever the people quoting them want to say

>What do you think they've been doing for the past decade ?

Not restructuring their financial system, Jacque. In fact it would've been easier for them to do this in 2007 than today.

>GAAP is bullshit
>You're too weakminded to be impartial and realistic

There's only two things who can take down America, none of them are good and both will result in the end of modern life as we know it, they are:

>American empire crumble and collapses on itself
>Nukes

Pick your poison, kiddo.

This is a graph I've made a couple of months ago. (Feel free to save it)

I've done some research behind the military buildup of the Chinese army since operation desert storm in Iraq 1990-1991 When the Chinese had an army equaling in size and technology that Iraq and they were absolutely scared shitless by how quickly the US annihilated them prompting the Chinese to heavily invest and reinvent their military doctrine.

Now If you look at the graph you can see a clear constant almost exponential growth of the military budget.

The military budget of China from 2000 to 2015 increased more than 10x in volume just in 15 years time.

Please remember that 1 dollar spend in China is worth 2.5 dollars spend in the US due to lower costs in China.

This military buildup is insane. The ONLY times a country has rapidly build up its army as China is doing right now is when it's preparing for an offensive war.

A similar growth in military expenditure was in Nazi Germany from 1928-1944. Napoleons army before starting its European conquest And Imperial Japan before attacking Manchuria and China.

It has NEVER occurred that such a massive military buildup DIDN'T end up as an offensive war.

I hope that people finally see why military generals over the last decade are seriously concerned about China. Trump whatever you may think about him has a genuine point being concerned about China right now.

>Hasn't upscaled yet, and consumers tend to stigmatize low-quality producers for much longer than the period in which they are low-quality. Given China's record as of the past-since-1979, I'd be surprised if Chinese consumers didn't pay a premium for imported, untainted (even if just by recognition) goods. A more interesting problem is that China has a lot of different paths to failure now that it's at this point of the investment-driven model:

It'll happen, same scenario in the 80s where Japanese made was synonymous with shoddy standards. Taiwan, Gorea and Japan all managed the transition quite well.

>China can't ease up on import controls without destabilizing its internal commercial paper market
>China also can't devaluate the Yuan to counterbalance this effect without crushing the Chinese domestic consumption market
>China hasn't been able to expand the domestic consumption market faster than it expands its internal debt market
>infrastructure investment payment schedules are drying up because the Yuan is still worth shit and infrastructure is only worth the value of labor it saves i.e if your currency is worth bupkis, infrastructure is literally worth less to you


I'm not sure I understand any of this desu senpai, I don't have a background in finance or economics. But I do know they have two separate currencies. The Yuan is artificially controlled too, so how can you say its shit.

>There are historical analogies you should look at when referencing China; Brazil in the 1960s, Japan in the 1970s-80s, Germany in the 1930s.

Hyperinflation, no, I think the Middle income trap rather. I do believe the CPC is planning for this, mainly by their almost frenzied drive into embracing genetic engineering, nanotech and robotics.They are attempting to simultaneously leapfrog up there as well. Their espionage efforts and diaspora population will greatly aid this process.

>GAAP is bullshit
yup, all statistics are bullshit


they have been reforming and deregulating for years

there is no such thing as overproduction you moron

the chinese economy is surpassing usa grwoth due to lack of regualtion and control

it will continue to outgrow usa

and usa will have problems unless we deregualte and lower governmetn spending also

our only hope is china ups the regs and governmetn spending and we get rid of the fed

Lol they'd get crushed.

America has a way better trained military

Nukes

Way better equipment

Also if you've ever read Chinese history one will learn that the zerg swarm strategy works kind of shit against an enemy that can concentrate its strength and throw shittily equipped shittily trained manlet chinks into a meatgrinder.

They could have years to prepare and the only way they would possibly survive is by nuking the USA to death.

you are so dumb

USA and China should copy hong kong and trade peacfull, have low flat tax, and very low government spending
few lawyers with little power

it's hard to trade peaceful when the U.S. is pointing a gun at your most strategic economic area

Expand where though?

South China Sea will be naval, and honestly will be more geopolitical and hybrid power (think Ukraine/Baltics/Crimea) than full out guns blazing. Duterte in the Phillipines accomplished what 10 liaonings can't. Even 50 years from now I don't see China reaching parity with the US alliance

I don't see a critical raison d'etre for Chinese offensive aggression because literally all they need to do for the next 50 years is sit still, avoid a war and chug away at the infrastructure projects they've started around the world. Then they let their demographics work.

Unlike Nazi Germany they aren't fighting against time or demography, nor do they lack strategic depth