Petersons stance on religion

So i watched a few videos of Peterson, because on /pol he is heralded as some kind of prophet bringing back christianity to the west.
After quite some hours spent listening to interesting stuff/discussions, i still get the feeling, that this guy is actually an atheist in the sense, that he doesn't believe in the existence of a higher being/creator; yet he would never describe himself as such and claims to be a religious person.
I get why he wants to promote christianity, and i can somewhat understand his claim being a christian (following archetypes like christ, using the bible to extract greater meaning from being human/how to live a good live), but without actually believing in christ and god, that's just basically an argumentum ad consequentiam

tl;dr: Jordan B. Peterson is an atheist LARPing as a christian

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=zGaEcAeTiP0
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
youtube.com/watch?v=Uv4kx2QP4UM
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c2a3.htm
youtube.com/watch?v=nbMq4NCHuhU
youtube.com/watch?v=ut9xlBfl25Q
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

youtube.com/watch?v=zGaEcAeTiP0

Use science to create a perfect religion. Okay do it.

Now how did you avoid everything terrible that communism (state religion) did?

I'm not arguing a Sam Harris standpoint; as i said i agree with Peterson, when he gets value out of christian belief.
I'm just saying that the disbelief in the actual existence of god/christ excludes him from being an actual christian

can i get a tl;dr;tl;dr on his actul religious beliefs? does he just think that jesus is actually horus, etc because they share similarities or something?

Peterson believes that archetypes are fundamental and necessary to human development.

as he said in the vid posted: you have to watch a 10+ hour lecture of his (which is great btw.) to get it, he can't explain it in less. But even after watching it, it isn't all too clear.
What i gather:
>our value systems and ideals are a product of billions of years of biological evolution
>that's why all cultures share basically the same ideas/archetypes in principle, like the hero story
>cultures may differ, but they have the same notions and goals as a foundation (altough some are "mislead"
>christianity is a religion that holds truth above else (which according to him lead to the rise of science and it displacing religion in the west btw.)
>therefore christianity is the best religion to follow, because it includes all important archetypes/fundamental ideas you need to have a rich fullfilling live (like Christ as the classical hero and THE perfect human being (as archetype; he's not saying he was)), as well a yearning to find and speak the truth, thus allowing christianity itself to filter the good from the bad in it's own belief/doctrine/dogma

Religious utilitarians are more cancerous than atheists.

Communism didn't suck because it was a state religion. It sucked because the economics of communism suck.

This nigga is accurate..

thanks; it wasn't easy to filter trough his content, since i'm not a humanities student.
It's interesting to listen to him, but if someone said i had to take notes, i would be completely lost.
In his videos i always see some students constantly typing/writing and i always wonder what the fuck they are actually writing down

A christian is someone who believes Jesus was sent from and as God to rectify the waning bond between man and God. If you don't believe this you're not christian.

Also, atheism rools religion drools. kys.

>A christian is someone who believes Jesus was sent from and as God to rectify the waning bond between man and God. If you don't believe this you're not christian.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

>No true Scotsman is a kind of informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect a universal generalization from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample.[1][2] Rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing"; i.e., those who perform that action are not part of our group and thus criticism of that action is not criticism of the group).[3]

He's a mystic, not a mere sheep
Take the western mysticism pill

what is a christian according to you then?

Basically.

God is dead, though, so it can't be helped.

still more christian than the pope

He holds to Christianity as a useful mythos. He does not hold to the supernatural elements of the faith, at least not publically.

Read A Confession by Tolstoy (around 30 pages long), that's how he views religion. Probably the most powerful reading to educate arrogant atheists by the way.

You are not operating on enough levels of abstraction to understand Peterson's approach to religion and god.

You need to stop thinking that Pinocchio is a historical report, you need to stop thinking about the story of Pinocchio and what is shown, you need to start understanding what it MEANS.

Don't hear, but listen.
Don't watch, but see.

Peterson says religious fundamentalists have it wrong.
Peterson says atheists have it wrong.
>Well how can there possibly be any other stance on religion other than these two???
You're hearing, not listening.
Fundamentalism vs. atheism is the WRONG discussion.

Fundamentalism is a mistake done by people with a proclivity to ideological thinking: "Why think for yourself when the infalliable answers are all right there in front of you?". It's a non-argument, there is no room for articulation, they already know the truth and they know it to be true.
Atheism is the response to this non-argument, it's the act of trying to convince a madman that Pinocchio isn't real at all. It certainly goes in an approximately right direction even though it's an overreaction, but it's still wrong and a miss is as good as a mile.

cont.

There is truth to Pinocchio. Not a literal historical report, not a literal depiction of the world, not a literal showcase of objective truths.
But an abstract one.

You're a puppet, controlled by something you don't understand or see, and you will never be a real boy until you stop lying, speak your truth and go face the monsters that you need to face, to rescue that which needs to be rescued. It's the essential human story, the pillarstones of our being.

Moses leads the Jews from Egypt into the desert, from tyrannical order into chaos. The group starts falling apart, they form small groups who worship their own deities. The groups start fighting each other. Moses acts as an intermediary, trying to solve the problems that the Jews face, and he does that for a while.
Until one day when God sends Moses the 10 commandments on stone tablets.

This didn't happen literally as you would imagine it to be.
Moses dealt with the Jews infighting for a long time and tried to solve their problems, he didn't just walk away. He tried helping them, and did so quite successfully after a while, for a long time when one day realization hit him like a lighting.
BANG, there they appear to him, the epiphany, the rules that govern not citizens, not populations, but humans. That which is fundamental to the human spirit and lets it thrive. Culture (God) manifested itself. And why stone tablets? Because humans carve things they believe to be eternal into and out of stone, not just eternal into the future but also the past, they have always been there, and people heard them, but nobody LISTENED.
And you KNOW all of this, because you adhere to these principles and thrive with them. You just don't know you know.

I also got the impression he regards Christianity as social gospel, nothing new under the sun

her derr my beliefs are too complex to possibly give a quick rundown on XD

can't this stand this pseud cunt. worse than molymeme

eh

he's also had some exotic experiences with psilocybin, crazy dream visions, stuff like that. I wouldn't make the assumptions you're making about what he believes and why. Of course he can't SAY that he experienced the presence of god while he was painting and retain any credibility as a scientist, but hes dropped little hints about that kind of stuff here and there

/myguy/

oh shit, i didn't know that. That makes him even more esoteric than i thought him to be

Is a belief in the literal existence of Christ a prerequisite to being a Christian?

No, you can be a Christian and believe that Christ is fictitious, just like the flying spaghetti monster

I tend towards this view too, user.

>read a proto-tumblr blogpost, written by a whiny little bitch that knew nothing about the actual dogma
Just never read real theologians, that's bluepilled

You can also let your wife get fucked by a pack of nigger and not be a cuck

Has he ever just stated clearly if he believes some of the basics of Christian doctrine? ala the Nicene Creed and Christ actually existing (not even controversial).

Yes it's also a a consequence of having actually looked into the subject, pretty much no one, even athiests, deny this.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

The Nicene Creed is the standard test, if you don't accept it you aren't Christian. You can't Larp that you accept certain things as if you actually genuinely "followed Christ" you would also actually listen to what he says.

Thinking he said some good things but rationalizing yourself past it (without actually looking into the subject based on these posts I'm reading) is nothing but Pride and sin takes you away from Christ.

Read Mere Christianity, or Reasonable Faith if you guys want a basic look at stuff

You can be a "Christian", but by that point you've just muddled the meaning of the word until it's non exclusionary. It's a bit of a stretch to claim he's a Christian, especially if God is a real being, thus making his ideology a form of blasphemy. That's assuming he is denying that the stories of the bible could be living metaphors rather than fictional metaphors.

You sound like you have personal experience with such things.

OK, I am happy with this answer. So let's grant that it is necessary to believe in his existence. To what extend then is it necessary to believe in the literal, rather than metaphorical, occurrences of his miracles.

>Has he ever just stated clearly if he believes some of the basics of Christian doctrine?
He looks at everything as allegories that prove that he is right.He is not even a larper, he just regurgitates Jung/Plato memes but ponders to larpers cause those idiots will make it rain on his patreon, cause larpers dont know dick about the Jesus they supposedly love.People like him are worse than atheists/materialists

If you want to be a faggy deist or pantheist, be it.Dont waste your time trying to make your own special snowflake version of Christianity that really is arrogance by proxy.

>
>

>being Christian
>literally worshipping (((Jesus)))

I never understood how these people can live with their cognitive dissonance

It's already clear that you have no answers or understanding, thanks.

Pretty much. This is why I like him.

>pseud cunt
get raped by a paki, anglo retard

yeah this does seem somewhat consistent with what he was talking about with Sam Harris but I wish he would give out the condensed version of what he is thinking

Accepting the historical Jesus only indicates that you've looked into the subject, not that you are Christian.

Read the Nicene Creed that's what is necessary

If you somehow think you have any basis to say God isn't capable of miracles your priorities aren't genuinely pursuing the Truth.

Again read Mere Christianity it's great for people who don't have much of a foundation.

Here is a fun youtube video you can watch if you aren't a reader but obviously reading is how you will actually understand stuff and unless you do I wouldn't be too hopeful youtube.com/watch?v=Uv4kx2QP4UM

At worst he is an agnostic. He states many times that religion is one of the human universals independent of culture. But he also understands that stories about being good people etc can easily be incorporated.

kek
that is one of the worst yet funny strawmen comics i've ever seen
>as soon as the trans people ask for respect... you're on the road to the gulag
heheh

Well, bit of both; part of his 'religiousness' is that the overman/jesus christ/the form/enlightenment are all similar ideals that man has constructed out of the world around him in order to best navigate it
Call that atheism if you will

>If you somehow think you have any basis to say God isn't capable of miracles your priorities aren't genuinely pursuing the Truth.
I disagree here. For example, I would be disinclined to accept that Jesus walked on water, without further elaboration. However, I am open to the idea that this may represent some sort of metaphorical truth, or that there are missing parts of the story.

Anyway, I will look into these books, thx user.

He's probably more an agnost or theist larping as a christian.

I think he just sees christian values as good, aside from issues of religious dogma

I consider myself the same. I don't believe in a God, but I'm culturally Christian; 10 commandments, golden rule, etc.

Must.fit.into.one.of.two.boxes.

It's literally God why wouldn't he be able too? He can literally create the universe but cannot walk on water? I don't understand why people have difficulty with this so I'm probably not good to talk too about it, but it seems like if you are able to accept anything outside the material, then it should be acceptable that things that go against our material understanding are atleast possible. Though if you haven't looked too into Christianity that might be fair, you just aren't familiar enough with God.
Nice quote from a demon
>About the general connection between Christianity and politics, our position is more delicate. Certainly we do not want men to allow their Christianity to flow over into their political life, for the establishment of anything like a really just society would be a major disaster. On the other hand we do want, and want very much, to make men treat Christianity as a means; preferably, of course, as a means to their own advancement, but, failing that, as a means to anything—even to social justice. The thing to do is to get a man at first to value social justice as a thing which the Enemy demands, and then work him on to the stage at which he values Christianity because it may produce social justice. For the Enemy will not be used as a convenience. Men or nations who think they can revive the Faith in order to make a good society might just as well think they can use the stairs of Heaven as a short cut to the nearest chemist’s shop.

> Muh no true Scotsman.

If someone claims to be a National Socialist but thinks Hitler was wrong and foolish then he's not a Nazi. If someone claims to be a Christian but doesn't think Jesus is the literal Son of God and doesn't believe in what he said then he's not a Christian.

that's the big secret, no adult in the west actually believes their religion is literally factually true, they just support the morals, enjoy the community and think its good for their culture, it's just that it only really keeps spreading if everyone pretends its real so that kids get into it and carry it into adulthood and its sort of like a society wide coping mechanism to just pretend God is watching over you and you'll go to heaven one day

that's why western people always say ambiguous things like "well thats why its called faith :^)" when asked why they believe their religion and not any of the other thousands and the only people who are actually willing to murder and die for their religion are low IQ sand niggers from third world shitholes

>google the quote to see who you're talking about
>first results are saying it's a fake quote not actually from C.S. Lewis

top kek

>
>Nice quote from a demon
>>About the general connection between Christianity and politics, our position is more delicate. Certainly we do not want men to allow their Christianity to flow over into their political life, for the establishment of anything like a really just society would be a major disaster. On the other hand we do want, and want very much, to make men treat Christianity as a means; preferably, of course, as a means to their own advancement, but, failing that, as a means to anything—even to social justice. The thing to do is to get a man at first to value social justice as a thing which the Enemy demands, and then work him on to the stage at which he values Christianity because it may produce social justice. For the Enemy will not be used as a convenience. Men or nations who think they can revive the Faith in order to make a good society might just as well think they can use the stairs of Heaven as a short cut to the nearest chemist’s shop.


>>Calm the fuck down. Egalitarianism through Christian concepts is not in any fucking way "social justice".

There are other forms of Christianity that predate Nicene Christianity.

The fact is however that it is just the creation myths of Judaism. None of it really happened. Just like aboriginal dreamtime story, it's the imaginings of ancient tribes.

so god is like santa?

damn...

>
>so god is like santa?
>
>damn...
God is Santa. Confirmed.

>i'm an atheist
>i believe in god and worship him
>muh no true scotsman

...

So literally memes

How is this news to 4channarians

everybody is LARPing as a believer, have you ever read the fucking bible ?

Everybody cherry picks the bible, and if you cherry pick, you have to do so based on something, that something is your values which means you already had those values and the bible was pointless in the first place.

People just see what they want to see, and the only reason they say they "believe" is because hey are too retarded to realize they don't.

Try actually clicking on webpages and reading, it's not fake.

Social justice doesn't mean things fat feminists say in those milo videos you watch
Social justice is a defined part of the Catholic Catechism
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c2a3.htm

>Jordan B. Peterson is an atheist LARPing as a christian

Why do you think he's so popular on Sup Forums?

That fallacy obviously doesn't apply, because it's the inverse fallacy of re-categorizing a word until unrecognizability.

You can define a "Christian" as "belief in Jesus as Christ", it's in the name, and thus carries a particular subset of common cross-sect beliefs.

What happens however is that "non-Christians" are persecuted by "Christians", so most people adapt to call themselves "Christian". Simple.

Every external utterance is a meme. We spread memes as we spread germs, since the dawn of man.

Agree. He doesn't believe in god, he suspends disbelief in god.

>Why do you think he's so popular on Sup Forums?
A lot of Westerners have been conditioned to believe that Christianity is the only thing that will save them from what they don't like.

For every problem, to them, 'Traditional Christianity is the only solution.'

They of course fail to realize that Christians are the SJWs who destroyed the Western civilization of Rome. They're really trying to be pagan Roman Conservatives, but don't know how.

So treating people with a modicum of decency is social justice. Right. The golden rule is not societal equality, it is the fabric of a moral being.

Sounds a bit like Theodore Dalrymple.
Conservative atheist, defender of the west, enjoys visiting churches, invokes the name of god, etc.
Reading Dalrymple is babby's first redpill, that civilization is fragile and welfare is corrosive.

he's really smart weather he is christian or not. he's saying those stories from the bible are not irrelevant, he saying ppl from are history were not stupid so learn from them. why sweep under such rich stories. atheist are fucking knobs

All social justice is essentially just social relationships

marxists/feminsits have taken the term but that doesn't change it's meaning so yeah.

>The golden rule is not societal equality, it is the fabric of a moral being.

The fabric of moral being is Christ. The Golden Rule doesn't actually make sense applied universally as people have different preferences.

>larping as a christian
You don't understand Christianity if you think that's even possible.

Kind of asking the impossible, his beliefs don't fit into neat boxes, he's not a conventional protestant or anything.

If I had to sum it up quickly, he's strongly influenced by protestant Christianity. He notably does NOT believe in biblical inerrancy and sees the Bible as a continuation of previous religious traditions, and not just Jewish religious traditions, but also pagan and Egyptian ones as well.

He points out that most belief systems including atheism require you to believe in unprovable axioms, and pushes the idea you should be agnostic towards which belief system you subscribe to, and more or less choose what works. He sees religion in general, mythology, and even fiction as all containing stories with good moral lessons of how to live your life. He sees variation in religious beliefs not as a sign of a weakness of religion, but an indication of how peoples religious beliefs vary to help them live their own lives in the best way. He is a strong believer in religion and spirituality, but he doesn't seem to believe strongly that it has to take a particular form.

---

It's interesting in that his arguments are steeped in science, philosophy, and intellectualism unlike a lot of religious thinkers. Listening to Jordan B Peterson is literally like listening to a university professors idea of what god is. It's a refreshing change after years of the anti-science religious right, and new anti-science SJW left.

I love how this comic has become a meme just on merit of how bad it is.

It has always been subjective. I ask myself "how would I react if this were done to me" before acting, which is all any one person can do.
The Bible, while holy and ancient is a tale woven together of moral distilled in one book. Take for instance the book I named my own child after, the book of Jude. That book is a tl;dr of the Bible, even noting events not even chronicled by the Bible itself. The author of the book of Jude was most likely to be written in the hand of the man who penned the book of David. "God" is the unknown, what we cannot actualize in our minds. This is why he is anthropomorphised. It's a foundation of here's what we know, here's what we don't, let's fill in the blanks. You see the shift in how Christianity fills in those blanks throughout history, and is also shown in modern willful cherry picking of Bible segments. I've never met a single Christian in my life who believes the exact same thing as the man next to him in worship. It is the subjective interpretation of the Bible which makes it archetypal for all western moral compasses, even "non-believers".

That's because protestants took out the heart of Christianity, tradition. Some people picking and Choosing doesn't mean anything, we have knowledge guided from the apostles, and those who the apostles chose. It's about humbling yourself to the wisdom and hierarchy, not about how you can't figure out what they think. There is no reason you should be able to understand all the decisions and intricacies of the wisest people in history.

It's not subjective, it's objective. If you want real Christianity read Church History, and look into the Apostolic Churches.

i dont give a fuck about christianity, any reasoning antisemite cant go around believing that a jewish teenage whore gave birth to a god

He is saying that memes are not simply random.

There is something physically fundamental to human biology that makes some memes stronger than others.

Why is kek so powerful? Because kek's memes mesh with the human psyche so well. not only that we have synchronicity with the Egyptian version of Kek.

Vatican 2 killed tradition for catholics too

It is amazing how big of a mistake it was in retrospect.

Santa is a patriarchal figure who judges people by their actions and rewards or punishes them with justice.

How is that different form St. Peter or God who judge people between heaven and hell? Santa gives annual justice to the living.
youtube.com/watch?v=nbMq4NCHuhU

May have injured them, not dead though.
The young are all either leaving the Church or going super traditional, especially those who are actually looking to become clergy.

>Peterson is a Christcuck
Whelp he had to have some kind of flaw, unfortunately nobody is perfect and if they are they're usually hiding something

It's more amazing that Catholics do not know they belong to the most evil institution on planet earth.

atheism and religion are not exclusive
if you don't understand this, think about it until you do. Then Peterson will make sense.

I believe Christianity of the sort that evolved in England and then the rest of the world is a very good thing and formed the moral core of of white people. I believe it should be defended against people trying to destroy it.

I don't believe jesus is any more real than kek.
And it doesn't matter to me in the slightest.

The problem is that you are broadening the definition of Truth so much it becomes meaningless. Your definition says that anything, any time can happen by will of God. This has major flaws. 1. It gives no moral direction. 2. It implies that any attempt to understand the Truth is futile, as the cessation of the natural order is always possible. 3. It directly contradicts human experience.

Tradition like being pro-life, charitable, wedded and baptized, respect of the husband, care of home and family, participating in the betterment of the community, participating in traditional holiday services, holding a confirmation for my child, confession and prayer?

qt3.14 would resurrect the father with.

Call me daddy and make me rise.

>Tradition like being pro-life, charitable, wedded and baptized, respect of the husband, care of home and family, participating in the betterment of the community, participating in traditional holiday services,
yes

> holding a confirmation for my child,
celebrating the child's maturing and inducting them into the community, yes. Empty events that simply come and go, no.

>confession and prayer?
meditation, atonement and return to the community for transgressions? Yes.

If you completed your atonement and the priest says you're forgiven nobody in the community is supposed to accept you back rather than harass you forever over every slight.

notice Atonement, not necessarily paying back in full, but at least trying to repay a partial amount.

tradition as in not taking the bible literally like protestants and allowing a centralized church to continue studying spiritual matters, not unlike the jews with the torah

Not at all you just don't know God. Truth isn't something you come to understand through rationality. If you truly want to understand what truth is live in obedience to God.
that means
Attend Church, be charitable, volunteer, forgive your enemies, and everything else that entails. It's never something where you don't know what to do, it's just hard to do it.

Traditions like hierarchy required for having any consistency, valid sacraments, or to be humble.
Most I've talked to even deny that the eucharist is literally Christ's Body. The second they start denying some difficult traditions they start denying Christ and call him a liar (figurative meme)

Don't get me wrong they are still far better then anyone else, it's just not the complete Truth. I grew up in an atheist home and was myself for a while so I don't know what growing up in that sort of environment is like, but if you are coming from nothing and look back and read Church history and doctrine the tough Choice is between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, protestantism is just never even considered. To deny hierarchy is to deny God.

Though also look how those traditions were maintained in very protestant countries like sweden vs catholic coutnries like poland.

Protestantism sort of came from the same individualist, rationalinist veins that would lead to nihilism and modernism. Way better then anything that isn't Christian of course but still not perfect.

You say that, and I look at Pope Francis.

A man who watched the oldest churches in Syria and Iraq be destroyed and did less than nothing. I'm not talking about the buildings, I am talking about the people.

And what does Pope Francis do? Kiss muslim feet and import illegal immigrants into Europe, he doesn't even house them, he just dumps them off in Italy.

Wait, wait, if someone says "this cracker is FIGURATIVELY Christ" they're off to the bad Christian camp?

i watched this one yesterday: meanings of genesis 8min
youtube.com/watch?v=ut9xlBfl25Q

i need to watch it again to fully take it in.

The people fleeing the country aren't the ones destroying the churches you nimrod.

He's just another pseudointellectual fag that Sup Forums latched onto because he pissed off some tranny freaks.

the golden rule is good to go by because most people dont want to be stolen or murdered

meanwhile jesus christ promoted turning the other cheek which is pretty fucking terrible advice

You seem to have evaded, and even illustrated, my point. And in fact, all the Truths you list *can* be easily rationalized, assuming we accept basic values such as empathy over indifference.

The paris attackers were refugees, genius.