I have a question to the Christinas on Sup Forums: do you actually believe what the bible about Jesus

I have a question to the Christinas on Sup Forums: do you actually believe what the bible about Jesus.
I recognize the importance of Christianity for western civilization and I'm not really oppossed to it's message, but I cannot believe e.g. that Mary was a virgin.

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>but I cannot believe e.g. that Mary was a virgin

Why not? Many of us here are permavirgins.

why not?
could an omnipotent deity not make a virgin woman pregnant?

this
wasn't a rhetorical question, i'm genuinely curious.
i hear things like this a lot "i can't believe x," but a defeater ( iep.utm.edu/ep-defea/ ) is never given.

is it due to some dogmatic devotion to ontological naturalism?

>I have a question to the Christinas on Sup Forums: do you actually believe what the bible about Jesus.

Yes.
And I find people who accept views they don't believe for their practical value to be terribly foolish.

Hahahahahahaha

typical

>Hahahahahahaha

Was that a 'yes' or a 'no'? Or are you refusing to answer the question?

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Virgin probably is defined differently. not to do with the physical act but how the act was done. spiritualism is in a higher perspective in this way. for example, it could mean that no orgasm was achieved during conception which makes it immaculate because the evil of being tied to materiality via the orgasm did not occur. they might define losing virginity as being mentally tied to earthly desires and pleasure, spirituality says that the mind is what matters most, so if no pleasure or desire occurred she is still an innocent virgin and it was an immaculate conception

a lot of stuff in the bible you have to read from a spiritual perspective like this. This is what they mean when they say reading with your heart and not your brain. This means seeing the world as a manifestation of symbols from a world of soul that is mysterious. modern people see things in terms of materiality - sex is the physical act, a virgin is someone who had no dick inside them. But there is a deeper meaning and deep language of the world, and this deeper language is what is found in stuff like the bible

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>a lot of stuff in the bible you have to read from a spiritual perspective like this

Nope.

that theory doesn't jive with scripture at all.
>immaculate
the immaculate conception has to do with mary's conception, not Christ's

>This is what they mean when they say reading with your heart and not your brain.
you should start doing the opposite

r/atheism pls go, you act like children about things you have next to no grasp of.

Yes, I believe it all. Who are we to say what is and is not possible?

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i haven't read one page of the bible, but the laws of causality are never broken. however i won't dispute the bible for it suggesting such, as i will give it credit that it is speaking with a deeper language, or that it is flawed but there is truth found somewhere in it

Both of you stop fighting.

Some things in the bible are meant more simbolically than literally and it has been written by dozens of people over hundreds of years. Still keep in mind that God is being described as an omnipotent being in Christanity so anything you can imagine God is able create. The thing which stays as the foundation though is that God has sent his son Jesus to us so that we can find forgiveness for our sins through him.

How do Christians reconcile an omniscient god and free will.

Because an omniscient god gave his creations free will as a gift. He could have made mankind a hive of worker bees but didn't.

What's the problem?

How can man have free will if God is omniscient? God would know everything that person will do in life before they are born. So choice is just an illusion, you could never have done anything differently. Everyone that goes to hell was going there from the start.

I know an atheist is going to say some stupid ass shit before he ever says it.

Did I make him say that stupid ass shit?

Likewise, God's pre-knowledge of your actions is not the cause of your actions.

but he creates in accordance with causality. you can refer to chaos theory for example. the reason the universe is so large could be to give latitude of potential for synchronicities which are called miracles. There is always a way, but the way has to be within causal law which is why space is so big, because the amount of miracles on earth couldn't happen otherwise

Theism means that a God can intervene and inflluence everything. This does not mean that people are being created only to end up getting lost.

And? You're omniscient in the fucking Sims. It doesn't matter. You can create a character then never once click on them or ever look at them again, and they'll go about whatever the characters in that game do. So what?

>you could never have done anything differently
you could have, you just didn't in the end

it's like a guy watching a recording of a football game he's already seen
he knows the quarterback is going to throw a pass, but that didn't cause him to throw the pass

>Did I make him say that stupid ass shit?
No
>God's pre-knowledge of your actions is not the cause of your actions.
It's may not be the cause (though god could be since he is the creator and in a deterministic world ultimately he would be the cause) but it means there was no other path that could have been taken

>Theism means that a God can intervene and inflluence everything. This does not mean that people are being created only to end up getting lost.

It does if God is all knowing.

>has to play mind games to justify his beliefs

Christianity is literally a blend of pagan religions and Sun worship. Not to mention Jesus Christ never even existed.


>This is what they mean when they say reading with your heart and not your brain.

Yeah I'd prefer to use my brain, thanks.

Thats always the meme counter argument to destiny and freewill when it comes to Christianity. But is it so hard to Belive that everyone is given the option to be Christian and some refuse and some dont. That people's paths are chosen at an individual level rather than a predetermined outcome. Truth is you won't know the answer till you are dead so I gave to just go by faith which is just one of the main themes of the Bible.

>And? You're omniscient in the fucking Sims. It doesn't matter. You can create a character then never once click on them or ever look at them again, and they'll go about whatever the characters in that game do. So what?

I am not sure you understand, I would be omniscient if I knew everything each character would do before hand. and if thats the case they have no free will.

Probably because she had a baby you stupid shit

retarded cow fucker

>cant believe that Mary was a virgin

INTO THE OVEN

Fucking commie bullshit.
Go "No masters except for Stalin etc" somewhere else dirtbag.

>Not to mention Jesus Christ never even existed.
that's wrong though
>Yeah I'd prefer to use my brain
please do

>Not to mention Jesus Christ never even existed.

en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Annals_(Tacitus)/Book_15#44

>you could have
No, because then God would know what in the first place.

Imagine I draw a line on a piece a paper representing every single choice you were going to take before you were born. In what sense would you have the choice to do anything different? You have to make follow that line.

Plebbit memes

>is it due to some dogmatic devotion to ontological naturalism?

Most nu-atheists will never admit it, and even few understand what you just said.

But, the answer is "yes".

she got raped and she lied about it to prevent getting stoned, Christians worship a cuck

Meant in the sense that it is not specified that God controls every single action of their lives only for them to end up getting lost. The ability for someone that he can intervene does not mean that everyhting happening is directly caused by an intervention.

The only time they don't have free will is when you open their options and start fucking with them. You can read their character stats all day long, it doesn't matter.

God hasn't done any smiting in a long while. Frankly it'd be nice if he did. I can think of some places in Saudi that could use a meteor or two

I would never know what I am predestined to do, so in that sense it doesn't matter. But still, if God is omniscient then it means everything is predetermined.

yes

>Imagine I draw a line on a piece a paper representing every single choice you were going to take before you were born
God's not drawing that line though, the line is drawn by us.
in the end, there were many different branches we could've taken, but didn't.

God knows everything currently and past. God can see the future if he so wills it. However he instead lets us chose our own path, as long as we obey his rules. Also an omnipotent God can see the future and change it, and even let other beings change the future. He can do anything and thus nothing is impossible with God and thus one can have omniscient wisdom and yet free will can still exist.

Yea, God doesnt need to control every action, just KNOW every action. So he would know which people are ultimately going to hell from the start. Unless he intervenes in which case there still isnt free will.

The hero-type of a divine king was described by scholars Otto Rank and Lord Raglan who established 22 distinctive features that range from virgin birth to death atop a hill and disappearance of the body.
Jesus has 20 of the 22 features (according to the Gospel of Matthew, 14 according to the Gospel of Mark), compared to 22 for Oedipus, 19 for Dionysus, 17 for Hercules, and 14 for Jason.

No historical person provides a close match with the hero-type so the close match of Jesus with the hero-type means that he could not have been a real historical person. Despite this, each of the heroes was considered to be historical and placed in history in stories written about them.
So the theory of Jesus as a myth neatly explains how Jesus did not exist as a historical person yet was inserted into historical narratives by New Testament authors.

the basic first step of really using your brain is understanding, not using it as a reactive indexing heuristic. Your heart refers to a deeper function of the brain which most people do not use. It is where insight comes from, insight is that which did not exist before. you are just repeating what already exists in your mind, and justifying it which creates a feedback loop. You'll do this for awhile until you get bored of the same ol stuff kicking around in your head. Or not, IDK

>The only time they don't have free will is when you open their options and start fucking with them. You can read their character stats all day long, it doesn't matter.

But they will just follow what they are programmed to do. And if i was omniscient in the case of the sims then I would know everything they will do, even if i dont fuck with their options. If i didn't know every single movement and action then i wouldnt be omniscient

That picture is fucking retarded. We don't believe in miracles because there is no evidence for them, not because all the reports are false.

Stop being a dumbass and actually try to understand the point.

Just because an all knowing God knows what you are going to do beforehand, doesn't mean that He caused you to do what you did. God also knows all of the possible choices you could have made. If you ever bothered to actually study and understand the Bible instead of trying to be a bit more clever than anyone else, you would grasp this, since it is made clear in the Scriptures.

People can explain things for you, they cannot understand things for you.

>God's not drawing that line though, the line is drawn by us.

If God is omniscient then he is all knowing and knows what that line is.

>in the end, there were many different branches we could've taken, but didn't.

those branches are just illusions because we cant see that line that god sees. and even if we could we still couldnt break from that line or that line would have been different from the start.

>you are just repeating what already exists in your mind, and justifying it which creates a feedback loop.

Like what you are doing? What is your point, exactly?

Knowing everything is not limited to one possible timeline. It could be any outcome possible. An omnipotent being would be able to change every outcome.

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>bible

So God really could create a mountain too heavy for him to move?

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If he could see the future if he decided then it still holds that the path is predestined. Only if its something that God couldn't know before hand could we have free will.

It's quite a pickle user. Even if God is out of the equation freewill and destiny is still and argument to have based on events happening on earth. You either adhere to one line of thought or another. But sometimes events happen in one's life that seem to be part of divine intervention so who knows?

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>66
lol ex-prot retards are always the worst fedora atheists. "mom made me go to VBS over the summer when I wanted to stay home and masturbate reeeee"
>symbolically eat his flesh
hahah prot retard turned gaytheist doesn't believe in the real presence. sad!

This.

I believe in the Bible, as long as it is translated correctly. It's a bit hard to tell if it's been tampered with. Especially during the Dark Age.

But that would mean people could make choices beyond God's ability to know them, rendering him non-omniscient.

In that case he could also change his "limit" to move this mountain. We already struggle with concepts created by men so the ways God would be working then are way beyond our imagination.

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Your entire existence is faith. You wake up in the morning and faith is what allows you to move forward with your life without worry. People don tho through life based on on what they know because they know nothing. Jesus is your god and you will worship him because he forgives your sins whenever you ask for forgiveness. Atheists are propagating the current degenerate state of society and need to repent before they realize what they have done.

It's empirically impossible to prove that god is real
Why do you personally believe in god? What made you decide to believe it is all true?
Note that "you can't prove he isn't real" is not an argument here because I'm asking explicitly why you personally believe

>Just because an all knowing God knows what you are going to do beforehand, doesn't mean that He caused you to do what you did.

Not saying he did, though that argument can be made since he created everything and is all knowing, from the start of creation he knew the path of every single person.

>God also knows all of the possible choices you could have made
And all choices you will make, which is my point.

>If you ever bothered to actually study and understand the Bible instead of trying to be a bit more clever than anyone else, you would grasp this, since it is made clear in the Scriptures.

I have read a few of the gospels, but I haven't encountered anything on free will clearly yet. Which is why i asked the question.

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No it doesn't. It just means God knows all the possible outcomes. To wit:

1 Samuel Chapter 23

10. Then said David, O LORD God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake.
11. Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as thy servant hath heard? O LORD God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the LORD said, He will come down.
12. Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the LORD said, They will deliver [thee] up.
13. Then David and his men, [which were] about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go. And it was told Saul that David was escaped from Keilah; and he forbare to go forth.

So David says, "God, will the men of Keliah sell me out to Saul?"

God, "Yes, they will."

David left. So, the event God knew would happen if circumstances remained the same and David stayed where he was did not in fact happen.

Knowing the outcome, and ever other possible outcome beforehand, does not mean that God forces people, or predetermines, the choice made among the possible outcomes. He could, but He chooses not to. The very fact that He is omniscient, means He can do things in that exact manner. The ability to know everything beforehand and still allow free will fits neatly into the definition of being all powerful.

And? They made the choice to give up immortality for a basic understanding of right and wrong. So?

you go girl

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>Knowing everything is not limited to one possible timeline
Would still leave each person in their own timeline without free will though

>An omnipotent being would be able to change every outcome.
I agree, just that we couldn't change our own outcomes.

Ultimately we will never know our predestined path so it doesn't matter to much, but theologically/philosophically it seems incompatible.

The stories are allegories containing archetypes that are as old as our consciousness.

Sorry, pussy, but you can't always run away from ideas different from yours

Perhaps you'd prefer Maoist China

>It's quite a pickle user. Even if God is out of the equation freewill and destiny is still and argument to have based on events happening on earth.
Very true!

>You either adhere to one line of thought or another. But sometimes events happen in one's life that seem to be part of divine intervention so who knows?

Yea, I know people who feel that they have had that experience directly. It's just always been a question I haven't been able to sort out.

Jesus Christ did exist.

Roman historian Tacitus: Nero fastened the guilt ... on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of ... Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome....

Pliny the Younger: They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food – but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.

Josephus: About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he ... wrought surprising feats.... He was the Christ. When Pilate ...condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared ... restored to life.... And the tribe of Christians ... has ... not disappeared.

Babylonian Talmud: On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald ... cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."

Lucian: The Christians ... worship a man to this day – the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account.... [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.

Technically you could prove God's reality by having some Alex Jones 12th dimension type computers working together with some algorithims. Everything is usually a reaction to something and causes other reactions. These computer could keep track of everything, analyze what has happened and predict the future. If their predicitions are false you could prove the exsitence of outer interference into our reality.

I know for some, that acts of divine intervention such as surviving a literal war or making it through a extremely tough situation bring people to accept god. Christians spread Christianity though Thier testimony speaking out about what God can do In ones life.

These seem even more cringey now then they did in 07.

Not many people that go to /pol are religious

> christianity is another tool that makes liberals and Muslims alike very angry

Never give away your true feelings to Liberals were Muslims. Do not concede how ridiculous christianity might be. Say you are a believer

Never give an inch to liberals on anything

get triggered much?

>It's empirically impossible to prove that god is real
same is true with:
>the existence of other minds
>that you are not a brain in a vat
>the reliability of scientific data in light of the problem of induction

>Why do you personally believe in god?
i think God made me believe.
there is good reason other than that though:
>the arguments for theism in general
>the failures of the arguments for atheism
>the historical evidence for the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ

A pregnant virgin, a new star in the sky, birth announcements that somehow reach all the way to wise men from the east, a flight to Egypt and a massacre of babies? If it all sounds too outrageous to be true that's because it is.

The original Mary was not a virgin. That idea was taken from pagan goddesses. Vesta, Diana, Artemis, Isis – the pagan world knew all about virgins getting pregnant by randy gods. In the gospels, the shadowy figure of Mary, destined to become the most pre-eminent of all the saints and Queen of Heaven, at best, is a two-dimensional nonentity. But a few centuries of creative story telling fused all the paraphernalia of pagan myths into the Christian one and fashioned a handmaiden for the Church of Rome.

>David left. So, the event God knew would happen if circumstances remained the same and David stayed where he was did not in fact happen.

Then he must have also known the final outcome before hand too, right? But God is answering David with the assumption that it is if he will stay?


>
Knowing the outcome, and ever other possible outcome beforehand, does not mean that God forces people, or predetermines, the choice made among the possible outcomes. He could, but He chooses not to. The very fact that He is omniscient, means He can do things in that exact manner. The ability to know everything beforehand and still allow free will fits neatly into the definition of being all powerful.

That's the hard part for me to put together. People having free will seems to break omniscience, because if God wanted to know someones path before hand, he could. And from that perspective everything would have to play out that way unless he wanted to change it.

>That idea was taken from pagan
nah

Historians generally accept that a historical Jesus did exist.

Yeah, people who want censorship deserve to be mocked. The First Amendment says your little thoughtcrime fantasy is never gonna happen, pussy. Grow a pair.

>looks at flag.

Oh look, another white Germanistan atheist spreading Jewish heresy