Health

>everyone needs health care
>amount of needed health care is largely outside a person's control
>health care costs vary wildly from individual to individual
>health care will always be provided regardless of ability to pay
>insurance increases complexity and cost of health care
>removing insurance lowers cost of health care
>government paying for all health care removes the problem of wildly uneven health care costs
>government can use its power to compel preventative care thus further lowering costs

This is the way forward and you know it. Unless we are genuinely willing to let the poor die in the streets (I'm fine with this but the majority is not) a true free market will NEVER work. This monstrous amalgamation of the worst parts of capitalism and the worst parts of government programs we currently have is ultimately more expensive than just going full commie and implementing single payer. Especially if we go a bit authoritarian with compelling preventative care and incentivizing healthy lifestyles with big tax penalties.

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>tax penalties for not living "correctly"

Fuck off libshit

>when corporations do this is through insurance and employment screening its somehow better

hokay

>being mad when the government tells you to not be twice your healthy weight

kys degenerate

There is literally nothing wrong with the government stepping in and saving a fat fuck from himself

>unless he can pay his own health care expenses, thus bringing back obesity as a mark of gentry

This. Remember what Gruber said? OP is one of the fucking idiots who fell for that bullshit tax.

>There is literally nothing wrong with the government stepping in and saving a fat fuck from himself
user I...

Universal healthcare is a trivial thing in Europe. OP's points about health largely being outside of a person's influence is very much valid, and for that reason, universal healthcare is a "socialist" policy i can whole heartedly support. On the other hand, products like cigarettes should be taxed to kingdom to come, to help finance healthcare.

>self destructive behavior resulting in increased healthcare costs should not be discouraged

>Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage, and basically, call it the stupidity of the American voter, or whatever, but basically that (lack of transparency) was really, really critical for the thing to pass.

he was criticizing Americas lack of demand for transparency in government while also admitting that in this particular case it helped the motion pass

Obamacare is an abomination and should be repealed with a pen dipped in king nigger's blood.

We have a system where healthcare is only affordable if you are so poor you pay nothing or so rich it doesn't matter. The capitalist answer results in a legion of dead niggers, so it is politically impossible. We gotta go authoritarian on this one. It's the NatSoc thing to do.

Once again I am impressed with the quality of Hungarian posting.

>The capitalist answer results in

the worst part of non-centralized healthcare is you have a thousand different formats and standards for transmitting healthcare and insurance information, which leads to (((cascading processing costs)))

Europe's health care costs are so low because every country has a unified standard for how to process doctor office visits, so there is 0 cost related to data processing that

t. former healthcare tech engineer

>he was criticizing Americas lack of demand for transparency
No, he was saying that liberals are to stupid to see it was a tax. Right no Obamacare is imploding and costs are skyrocketing. What are the Democrats going to do about it? What are their proposals to fix it?

>What are the Democrats going to do about it? What are their proposals to fix it?

They deny there is any problem at all. Their constituents either can easily afford ridiculous premiums or get health care for free. In their world it really is fine.

The white middle and working class, on the other hand, is being fucked hard.

Technically this is the way backwards not forwards. The US conducts most of the worlds medical R&D. Sure some random country with like 8 people and 22 acres might be able to afford to do this but if you want the cure for cancer someday someone is going to have to pay for that.

To bad Trump can't sign an executive order forcing congress to use Obamacare.

Put the money you save from (((insurance))) into R&D and we'll have big dick pills in months and AIDS cured by September.

>What are the Democrats going to do about it? What are their proposals to fix it?

This was actually a large part of the Sanders campaign if you were paying attention, which was fixing the issues with Obamacare, however if the Republicans turn around and change healthcare legislation drastically its just going to incur costs, anytime any of these programs gets replaces we're talking of billions of dollars down the drain and trillions of man-hours wasted in the doctor's office and in healthcare companies. The lowest cost solution, especially given that the democrats are going to take back the white house and congress soon because of demographic changes (elders dying off, Hispanic birth rates) is to just fix Obamacare.

most of the costs associated with insurance are from the influence private companies have on lobbying legislation that allows them to create thousands of competing, lackluster standards for healthcare processing

>poor
>healthcare

1/3 of Americans are obese. The poorer you are, the more likely you are to be obese. The rest of the poor have some flavor of drug problem.

Should the govt be able to force better lifestyle choices on people?

And just what is "healthcare"?

>especially given that the democrats are going to take back the white house and congress soon
AAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

>be poor
>be britbong
>fall from quadruple decker bus
>ambulence picks me up and fixes me for free
>continue on with of being poor / sue bus company and get rich
>pay an extra few quid on taxes to fund NHS

>be amerifat
>start dying from being so overweight
>am already paying stupid amounts of money for health insurence
>take a turn for the worst
>insurence jews make an excuse to not pay up
>spend everything i have to save myself
>atleast i dont have to pay taxes for other peoples health care

Nazi Germany had universal health care.

I am in neither party but I would love to hear how Republicans plan on winning elections when their prime demographic is dying and millions of hispanics come of voting age

>Should the govt be able to force better lifestyle choices on people?

Yes. f people are incapable of taking care of themselves they must be compelled.

t. fascist

Exactly. Hitler did nothing wrong.

They won't.

>elections

>everyone needs tendies
>amount of needed tendies is largely outside a person's control
>tendies costs vary wildly from individual to individual
>tendies will always be provided regardless of ability to pay
>insurance increases complexity and cost of tendies
>removing insurance lowers cost of tendies
>government paying for all tendies removes the problem of wildly uneven tendies costs
>government can use its power to compel preventative tendies thus further lowering costs

I am not paying for your healthcare user fuck off.

Prob the only issue I'm socially liberal about. Went to college in the UK, free healthcare is the shit

you already do, the question is would you like to pay more, and would you like to know how to pay less

>everyone needs food but we leave it to the free market why not healthcare too

Because everyone knows the amount of food they will need every day for the rest of their life and it is a laughably inexpensive category of spending.

Healthcare is unpredictable and expensive.

You already do. Nobody is ever denied healthcare due to inability to pay. Society pays for it.

Democrats lost the Presidency, Congress, Governors and state legislatures. You are the party of whiny crybaby liberals. You are also the party who stabbed bernie in the back and did absolutely nothing. Go ahead and let Hispanics gain in population. They will just move to big cities and you only get so many electoral votes in theose cities. Remember your liberal chant? "We won the popular vote" lot of good that did you.

My prediction is that the Democrat party is on the way out and the next party's will be Republican and some sort of Tea Party.

what is the goal of healthcare? is it to heal the sick or to make money?

the two are mutually exclusive btw.

Jokes on you I stopped paying taxes in 2008

>unpredictable and expensive

Why do you think insurance exists in the free market?

While this is baity there is some truth to the health care industry having a perverse incentive to keep the population ill. If I were a (((doctor))) I would shill healthy at any size constantly.

A properly nationalist government would exclusively be interested in a healthy populace. More productive and less expensive. Happier too.

When the premium plus deductible would bankrupt you there is no incentive to not just be a free rider since we won't actually deny you care.

Also, there is zero chance someone with cancer or something would be able to purchase affordable insurance. Electorate would compel he government to pay for their care and we're back where we started.

>Americans hate their current system where they can pick a company and pay them a nominal fee every month for security into a large fund that is dispensed when the minority gets sick (aka those in need)
>They'd prefer a system where you pay a nominal fee every month that goes into a large fund that is dispensed when the minority gets sick (aka those in need), except they can't pick the company

Americans are not only the unhealthiest westerners, they are also the stupidest.

>You are the party of whiny crybaby liberals

I'm not a liberal nor democrat, I'm just someone whos posting in this thread because I've worked as an engineer in both private and public healthcare tech organization, but I'm pretty sure you'd be better off planning for major Democrat pendulum swing wins in the next few elections.

>insurance exists in the free market

Bahahahaha. Insurance, healthcare systems, and pharmaceutical companies are all in bed with the government to keep the cost of entry super high and rack up costs for profit.

>except they can't pick the company

Repeat after me: the majority of healthcare costs are processing costs associated with thousands of competing standards. The items on a doctor's bill in America goes through several hundred companies before arriving in the patient's mail.

So 10 bucks you don't have any source on that nonsense? What do you mean "competing" standards?

>Healthcare is unpredictable and expensive.

Precisely because of insurance companies' willingness to pay it. Government will be no different.

I work for a government agency (county level). Everything we buy is more expensive when it's for government use. The vendors that we buy from jack their prices be size they know .gov has deep pockets.

Healthcare is exactly the same. Medical providers will charge an astronomical sum because they know that inflated government budgets will cover it through increasing your taxes.

>Also, there is zero chance someone with cancer or something would be able to purchase affordable insurance. Electorate would compel he government to pay for their care and we're back where we started.

>If there was a free market, the government would fuck it up by making random things free.

Not exactly sure what your point is. People with a disease shouldn't get cheap insurance for the same reason I can't buy fire insurance while my house is on fire.

>everyone needs healthcare

Bullshit. Do the following and you'll never need a doctor.

>get regular exercise
>eat sensibly
>don't smoke, drink or use
>never fuck anyone but your opposite-sex spouse
>conceal-carry
>avoid public places frequented by shitskins

>get cancer anyway
Whoops

>What is random allergic reactions without genetic components
>What is autoimmune diseases that come up from common mutations regardless of parents genes
>What is cancer

This is however solved by your parents getting child insurance and you then making sure you are insured throughout your adult life.
Easy af.

Research "EHR" 's, an EHR is an Electronic Healthcare Record, EHR's are usually bundled with software used to track insurance and billing information for doctors and patients, the largerst right now is Epic Healthcare who has about 50% of the US market, but that company and others like it purchased a bunch of smaller companies with competing standards that is costing HUGE amounts of money to integrate. The HITECH Bill of 2009 created millions of dollars in vouchers for increasing the complexity of these systems in attempt to bring them all to a standard (it is failing because we're still not single-payer).

When a doctor using something like Epic to process billing and insurance, Epic and their competitors works with /thousands/ of other companies. The market is in no way integrated. For example, one insurance company might outsource their data processing to a third party because it has a different HL7 (a very basic, unsubstantial format) form. Don't even get me started on Medicare/Medicaid.

Different HL7 fields = different ways to process them. This means you may HAVE TO HIRE TEAMS OF SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS AND PROVIDER CONSULTANTS just to get insurance information from two different people to communicate. It's a nightmare.

>everyone needs health care

I'm healthy.

i wonder who they think is replying? they're probably replying to themselves.

i kind of want to see the country try "single payer" since i know it'll fail miserably.

Again you are making no sense. Why would anyone need different insurance systems? Do you guys switch like every 3 weeks or are you just creating fake problems?

Because if its a real problem i'll just move to the states, start my own insurance company, and then not touch other's peoples data (because why would you). therefore saving tons of money bringing everyone premiums down and me out-competing every apparent retarded american insurance company.

This is probably the one issue I agree with leftists about. Health is no individual concern. People in poor condition exist as such to the detriment of more than simply themselves. Since the dawn of time people have strengthened themselves by making special arrangement with the medicine man, and since the dawn of time it has done them no end of good.
Now, obviously it has to be done well. There must be caveats and conditions. In particular, the expectation that it will work in a multicultural society as anything other than a drain on the public treasury is ludicrous. Public healthcare is the exclusive dream of a volk.

I would be perfectly fine with some old people shit. Medicaid for all with the option to purchase supplemental insurance. Have the option to purchase private insurance. Incentivize these purchases by making the fully tax deductible (last year I paid 15k for HI for the wife and I, did not use it once).

>Do you guys switch like every 3 weeks

Most Americans switch insurance when they switch jobs.

If you get your healthcare from the government or a government-funded pro-bono organization your insurance changes as you change income.

If you switch doctors the way your insurance is processed changes.

>start my own insurance company,

There are giant barriers to entry and you'd get to understand the clusterfuck I'm talking about.

>not touch other's peoples data (because why would you)

Different healthcare providers provide different ways or processing information /because there are so many multiple private EHR and billing systems used by a single doctor/, you would be forced to or go out of business.

This is hard for you to imagine because in Sweden it's so streamlined compared to here, and I don't think you understand the complexities of privatized healthcare, research EHRs and how Medicaid processes their data, its fucking nuts.

But then you do realize that government health plans will solve almost nothing seeing that the issue of adding on junk value is still there?

A single payer system with only 1 way to process insurance, reporting, and billing (many European countries do this and its why their costs are so low), would solve this clusterfuck. Everyone in the healthcare processing industry knows this but its also why their companies spend millions of dollars in lobbying to stay relevant because their shitty expensive system would become redundant.

>issue of adding on junk value

The junk value is THE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PRIVATE COMPANIES THAT HAVE TO COMMUNICATE WITH EACHOTHER JUST TO PROCESS A SINGLE HOSPITAL BILL.

So out of curiosity, why does this work in Sweden then? You do realize everyone here also has private insurance yes(I have insurance from a total of 3 sources excluding the default government ones)?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICD-10#Sweden

They were all required by law to process information the same way.

I think so as long as its reasonable. I don't mean like being 10-20 pounds overweight. Someone who is morbidly obese to the point where its causing complications that make everyday tasks difficult or impossible NEED to be regulated.

All bullshit aside the healthcare issue is very complex.

If you nationalize it you get inefficiency, corruption, and a burden on all taxpayers.

If you privatize it you get predatory suppliers, corruption, and monopolies.

Seems pretty lose-lose.

I like to think simply. If there was a tribe of nogs running around and one got sick the tribe would stop and try and help him get better. That is a argument for nationalization...

...but then I hear about how the cannucks ship their guys to the states and put it on the taxpayer dime for the care. I hear about how good our quality of care is. I hear about the waiting lists.

I wish I had an answer for the whole healthcare problem so many idealists seem to know the truth about but I don't.

>everyone needs health care
False. People did fine without it for thousands of years.

>amount of needed health care is largely outside a person's control
False again. Most is because of lifestyle choice.

Single payer needs to be coupled with concentration camps for the obese. And kill drug users and smokers.

Actually makes sense. Give incentive to those that are a burden on the system to stop being a burden.

I for one don't want to pay for the sex change the obese, smoking 50 year old that just contracted aids thinks they need to feel comfortable.

>did fine without it for thousands of years
Are you literally retarded?

Concentration camps for obese just makes sense from an aesthetic basis as well. Look at America. It used to be known for fine looking women, now 75% of them are overweight. Nothing worse for national morale than fat ugly women.

It's the truth. "Healthcare" is a luxury that isn't needed. In fact, it's extremely dysgenic, which is why healthcare programs must include a hardcore eugenics program as well to balance that out.

>government can use its power to compel preventative care
That is to say, the government will force it's perceived "best lifestyle" decisions on me, against my will.

Literal tyranny.

but when culture does that anyway its the free market right

75% is a huge exaggeration, or you have insane standards.

I would say concentration camps are a bit of an overcompensation, but taxing people based on bodyfat % wouldn't be.

I hate the fact that I pay for some NEETs double bypass. I just got a new job and the first month I paid over $1500 in taxes. Fuck medicare and medicaid.

>implying all diseases are related to genetics and thus can be solved by eugenics
What you gonna do about trauma and infections?

"Overweight" has a definition you know. And close to 75% of American females (I refuse to call them women because that implies they are human) are overweight. Taxes wouldn't solve the problem. They would just continue being fat and pay the tax because they have no self control. They need to be forced to do it.

Can I get a quick rundown on how Obongocare is supposed to crash and burn? I see theories about how this is going to help Trump because the ACA is doomed and the Dems are stuck with it. How?

They die off and the race is strengthened. Natural selection.

I don't think so

>R&D meme
This is not an argument, medical research will be done anyway as it benefits all people, including the medical researchers, in the form of increased life expectancy and quality of life.

Removing the money out of medical R&D will actually be beneficial since it removes the incentive to suppress new breakthroughs that conflict with current profits.

With out the money tied up in it we can use cheaper natural alternatives.

Because trump says so

People are fat because of insecurity. Its a natural reaction to stress and uncertainty. Ensure people arent afraid of dying all the time and they wont have the compulsion to load up on calories on case there are none in the future.

>individuals in a group dying of infection and disease strengthens a population

Someone failed bio

explain his reasoning then? or do you just lack the knowledge

>filename
I'm 95% certain that the typical doctor doesnt look like that.

Playing devils advocate. "Because trump says so" is all Sup Forums has

I sit corrected I was mixing up overweight and obese.

On a side note I am considered "overweight" by BMI (which is a shit measure) and am a 200lb 6'3" brick shithouse.

bodyfat % is a better measure. Sorry I lift I guess?

>it's another Americans try to figure out healthcare episode
You'll get it one day lads.

>health care costs vary wildly from individual to individual

Someone born with a singer's gene can become a popstar and make millions

Someone born with a athlete's gene can become a football star and make millions

Someone born with a extroverted gene can network their way into a high position and make millions.

I'm have no special genes but at least I was blessed with good health. Now people are saying this shouldn't count as anything.

It's like if you win the genetic lottery for professional talent you get to keep your winnings, but if you're lucky enough to win the health lottery the government steps in and steals your winnings.