God's paradox

Come up with an actual argument that kills the meaning of this quote.

I swear to god (irony xd) if someone comes up with a counterargument, i will pull out my carpet and fucking pray to Allah, or go to my local church and pray to God.

- Calling me a fedora-tipper isn't an argument.
- Judging me by my nationality isn't an argument (I'm talking to you, SWEDES)

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god is simply the seed planter of mankind you idiot. it is interchangeable with 'creator(s)'.

>oh, another why does god permit evil thread

Consider what would happen in an Atheistic worldview. First you wouldn't have any moral values to call anything good or evil, and even if you did, all the evil that did happen would be meaningless because in the end there is no ultimate justice and whether you lived as a Mother Teresa or a Hitler makes no difference.

Now to address the issue itself, it's actually not a problem at all and the existence of evil in fact proves God's existence, because without him there would be no objective moral values at all. Also pain and suffering did not exist at first, they do now because of original sin and our fallen state, but God uses everything for good, and knows exactly what to allow and what to not allow for his will to come true.

We do not see this world from God's point of view, and cannot decide why some seemingly needless pain and suffering occurs. If Jesus didn't suffer and die, nobody would be saved, but when thinking like men we think we're doing the right thing (Like when Peter tried to save Jesus, not understanding that he had to die, because he was thinking like a man).

The "problem of evil and suffering", can only actually be a problem, if God exists. You have to borrow from the Judeo-Christian morals to be able to disprove the Judeo-Christian God, because without him, there would be no objective morality as such.

Watch this: youtube.com/watch?v=Kg5fTKWaqn4

He's addressing the Yahweh cults, you deist meme

This concerns only the morality of God, not his existence. And it doesn't make sense to call immoral the inventor of morality itself. Whatever he says is just is therefore just.

If God is able to prevent evil but not willing, that does not necessarily make him malevolent.

One could argue that a greater good is achieved by making us confront and overcome evil than by allowing us to be mindless drones in a padded container.

>because without him there would be no objective moral values at all

>Man in tribe starts stealing everyone else's tubers
>everyone gets pissed and exiles or murders him
>moral value created: don't steal my shit

>Man in tribe starts killing everyone for no reason
>other men find out who did it and murder him to stop him from killing everyone
>moral value created: don't kill

Many such cases.

I doubt this is even truly a quote from Epicurus but I will paraphrase Augustine's response: evil is bad for those who are bad but good for those who are good; for the bad, hedonistic weak sort of person (like Epicurus) evil is a threat to their only source of meaning and happiness (self gratification); however for a good, stoic or Christian type person the evil in the world serves only to test, discipline and instruct--ultimately serving the greater good of overcoming it..you see God did not want to make a hollow simulation when he created Man, he wanted something with real life, and to the ones he has chosen for his Kingdom, it is a life of patience (yes) but also ultimately one of Triumph and grace

It's a fucking fairy tail

Genesis 2:7
>And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Humans have the ultimate power in the universe, free will, which was given to us by God. The Bible makes it very clear that determinism is bullshit, and that it's not all just dominoes going all the way back, but that we are a sum greater than our parts, and have agency in this world.

There can be no greater display of omnipotence than granting free will to something (i.e. humans) as this gives us, fundamentally, the capacity to violate EVERY law in the fucking universe as we're no longer bound by a series of previous inputs determining our current and future outcomes.

Given this ultimate power of god, you cannot simultaneously hold that he can also prevent evil because that would inherently mean erasing all free will and turning us into little meat robots.

In fact evil can ONLY exist if God is indeed all powerful because otherwise calling deterministic, meat robot humans "evil" or otherwise ascribing moral qualities to them is every bit as nutty as screaming at a rock for falling down a hill "wrong" or a leaf blowing in the wind "unvirtuously".

Fairies don't have tails you numb nuts

Why should god make your life perfect? Greed is a sin my friend. If your whole existence was just pure pleasure all of the time, then what's the point? How will you even know that what you are experiencing is pleasure if you have nothing else to compare it to? Isn't true happiness overcoming problems in life? Everyone wants to go to heaven, but no one wants to die.

If God didn't allow evil to exist, He'd be forcing you to be a mindless lemming that worships Him.

Furthermore, your argument is predicated on objective morality, which can't exist without a God in the first place. Self-defeating.

Regardless, God's goal isn't to remove suffering, not sure where you got that idea.

Kan ikke, "Gud" er en jodisk opfindelse.

If there is no evil, there is no good. If all was well, how would we learn what is wrong? This exile on earth is a test for the righteous.

>1 post by this ID
Wtf op?

Evil is a byproduct of free will

You can either be free and live in a world where evil exists or be a soulless robot in a world where everything is always perfect

Epicurus was a Greek faggot. Faggot philosophy is not valid. Your argument is moot, oh and read Rene Girard if you want to ask about why is there "evil" in the world

He created the universe and left it at that.
Evil comes from people.

>Come up with an actual argument that kills the meaning of this quote.

what is free will for $2000?

Not stealing because you don't want to suffer the consequences of being caught stealing is not the same as a moral value that says stealing is wrong.

>All these religious shills on Sup Forums

Since when did this board become filled with religious god-worshipping NEETs? Are you all serious or just trolling? Honestly cant tell nowadays, Sup Forums is becoming more batshit retarded with religious """"""redpill"""""""" memes.

you didnt disprove shit you just said that people living by the bible would be better for society. I happen to agree, but that doesnt mean Epicurus is wrong.

Yeah but the question is if god does put us in a shitty situation and won't do anything about it, how do you justify worshiping him other than because he is more powerful which is just slave morality.(why call him a god)

I like it

>Babys first theological argument

Come back when you are older.

lol. Greeks can't into Christianity.

Stupid fuckin' Greeks.

God is all those things and beyond man's comprehension. Of course the Greek's can't understand this.

lol.

Stupid fuckin' Greeks.

Right? That's the whole point of free will in the first place.

And if God designed a situation that was catered to our every need, we would progressively see easy things as hard.

At what point do you say God is not evil? When he wipes your ass for you?

It sounds like autistic kids screeching out their parental issues tbqh senpai.

Because if you manage to live a moral life you will be rewarded, and also you only exist because of him.

>god allows things that we think are evil with our limited perspective
ever consider that god knows everything is gonna turn out ok for you?

God is neutral. He is not good. Anything else is just a meme.

How is this a paradox? God is unwilling to prevent evil. The end.

If only this was answered in the Bible or something... Book of Job? Never read it.

If God didn't allow evil none of us reading this would still exist.

It's up to us, it's our choice to turn back toward God.

Expecting to understand the mind of God and apply a human rationale to God is foolish.

That's where faith comes into play. I know God exists and that Jesus is Lord so I trust in Him.

Lmao, "Divine Command Theory". On this logic, there is nothing you can say morally about ISIS, other than the fact that they are praying to the wrong god, if they were praying to the right god, what they are doing would be morally good because God would have commanded it.

>argument from compensating benefits.

literally the thesis of brothers karamazov.

read a book faggot this (((argument))) has been refuted

The paradox is that the bible claims that he is the most benevolent being that exists. Thats why he says he is "malevolent"

> then he is malevolent
no we deal with free will and the repercussions

Thats not the argument. The bible claims that God is benevolent in every sense of the word, but also just. This shows he is Malevolent

How does allowing people to decide for themselves and suffer the consequences make someone less benevolent?

Making stunted people that are just mindless drones that never get to experience life is a very malevolent thing.

You would surrender your own thoughts on morality and choose gods because of rewards? This is not a good argument for a moral life. And even if you think you can't trust human morals you are using human morals to choose gods morals and you stand by that

Clearly thats not what Epicurus means. He means evil as in getting slaughtered for no reason in the barbaric times that had so many devout believers. Of course it still happens today.

You are sent here to be tested. Any evil/good you encounter is a part of this test. You assume that your life in this world matters, but it doesn't. You will be rewarded for enduring evil without turning away from God, you will be rewarded for doing good, you will be punished for doing bad.

If every evil/suffering was prevented, there would be no test.

>Is he both able and willing
>Then whence cometh evil?

One of the major aspects of my religion at least is that we are not supposed to be hand-held throughout our entire lives by a God who will prevent us from doing evil. God made man with free will and it is his free will that creates that which you ''subjectively'' call ''evil''. There is no evil in the universe and the universe does not evolve around one death or 100000000 deaths of mammals.

By the way since you brought up an Ancient Greek, here's another Ancient Greek quote

> συν Αθηνά kαι χείρα kίνει

It means that together with Athena (Goddess) you need to move your hands as well, aka it's not enough to just pray to the Gods for something but you also have to put in the necessary effort.

The existence of God does not imply life is meant to happen on auto-pilot by a God who has everything fixed just the way each of us wants it. What's the point of life then?

>1 post by this ID
Truly kys if it stays this way

The vast majority of human history has been filled with more evil and horror than we could ever imagine. In fact, the same is true within the third world today. People are brutally slaughtered for no reason, why did God let Hitler come to power? It has been proven its not the fault of Germany and most people will harm others in command of a leader.

>You would surrender your own thoughts on morality and choose gods because of rewards?

He rewards you for your morality paddy.

>And even if you think you can't trust human morals you are using human morals to choose gods morals and you stand by that

Human morals are subjective paddy, if there is no measuring stick then everything is up to ones feel, wants and other what nots.

>morals don't exist without gods
Didn't plato disprove this in the republic?

btw marcus aurelius proves this whole argument is pointless

There's a ton of evil. However, we cannot understand the full picture with karma and reincarnation. Everyone ultimately gets what they deserve. Both victim and perpetrator.

Well, the Bible says god created all man even the wicked for his own use. Plus god isn't your mom, it's not his job to prevent evil. PLUS.. how do you know that you haven't already received protection from evil? YOU weren't raped by a pack of n words today.

>paddy
Kek the jimmies are rustled

All that evil was done by humans. Because humans have free will. Also I would argue what you perceive as evil is a bit blown out of proportions and still is a lot more preferable and I would argue even moral do to the free will than just being a puppet.

And if we take the Christian God, then if you managed to live a moral life despite the evils done onto you, you will be justly rewarded for your suffering.

Probably somewhere north of "There are entire species that only reproduce by burrowing into mammals (including humans) eyes and bursting out of them like the scene in alien when they hatch, permanently blinding the host."
Can't see the omnibenevolence in children blinded by a parasite that will go extinct if it doesn't.

>Can't come up with a counter
>yo...jimm.. ies..a.. ruslted seee

Love is the answer. You cannot have free will, love, and good without the other being present.

There are infinite combinations of events, emotions, decisions, actions for life's simulation to be possible. It's a necessary casualty of the life/level/frequency we are currently in. Others it's not.

Suffering of a crushed ant is to man, is what suffering of a man is to a god, is what suffering of a god is to All of life.

Let me ask you this then, imagine someone who is a mass murderer. Someone who has a literal different chemical makeup of their brain, meaning their brain does not function like ours. These people did not choose to have the brain of a serial killer, one with the incapacity for empathy. If god does not stop this, the bible is wrong in claiming he is BENEVOLENT

Gods works in mysterious ways

see

I just showed this to my Priest, and he called the local Bishop. The USCCB are going to have a meeting next week and present this to the Pope. It's over, folks. This one argument is going to take down the Church.

Why didn't anybody think about this before? We've had 2,000 years!

>people were pieces of shit until some God came and gave everyone rules.

That' stupid and provably false.

Of course he is able and willing, but he has also created us with freedom of the will, and God cannot freely make you do something.

Moreover, sometimes God allows evil to happen (not causing it) in order to achieve a greater good. Biggest example is in the Bible itself: Crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

This quote assumes that God has full control over our lives, and that is not the case, we are called to love God and do what he commands us to do, but he cannot force us to do so.

It is part of God's love to give us freedom, he didn't create us as robot slaves, but free creatures made in his image. We used that freedom to get ourselves in this mess, then God sent Jesus to pay for our mistakes and reconcile us to himself.

I'm sorry the world isn't perfect.

See, if I were a God, I would stick you straight in hell for being entitled to think something as insignificant is worth perfection from the get go, but that's probably why I'm so humbled by the concept of a God who wouldn't do that.

By the way, what makes you think you're entitled to a world of perfection? What makes you think you're entitled to anything at all? You've clearly affirmed your own value, but on what basis I can only imagine.

Because that cycle you just explained takes a bit of time and there are millions of fallacies in the bible

Don't argue theist fags from the assumption that God exists and you need to prove that he doesn't.

Instead, just ask "Why should I believe in God?"
There is no good answer to that.

That's because you didn't pay anything against my argument
>god rewards you for your morals
That's what I said, but my point was that why throw your own morality under the bus for rewards
>human morality is subjective
That's what I said but you trust your human morality to choose gods morality so why not just choose your own.

oh right the rewards for selling out your own morality.

>he hasn't read Senaca

Yeah dude, some kid being born to starve a week later is totally not malevolent

Pendejo.

God is nothing but our own creation, science is way superior, and people couldn't find a way to defend themselves in an argument about genesis/evolution.
As an excuse for that, they have created the 'Divine plan' that includes science as an invention of God. This is utterly stupid. And they teach that in schools. This basically contradicts many things if you say God made science, then science say that human made God. But humans made God in order to justify whatever they couldn't explain or to feel safe. Probably to make some order as well. Though religion was a huge means of manipulation even since prehistory and antiquity. To think you, the king/pharaoh are the intermediary to God or even God yourself... that's such a way to impose authority. Religion played a great factor in our history. Crusades. Djihad. Even Holy Roman empire of Germanic origins. Even the separation of Rome. Religion changed radically the course of history, for worse, usually. But it managed to keep some nations together, under the same ideals or hopes. But it doesn't make it any better. Religion is destruction. Violation of other's opinion or perspective because it isn't like yours. Killing in the name of God, huh? But what if your God is nothing but a fantasy? There are scientific studies that show how hallucinations happen. And how Jesus' magic could be nothing but hallucination. A man who is dead doesn't wake up and fly through rock 3 days later. Maybe he was in clinic death, but still. Moving a massive rock all by yourself weakened by whatever just happened... improbable. And how is it possible for Herod to die in 4 BC if Herod was contemporary to Jesus and Jesus born BEFORE he gave an order to kill all male babies under the age of 2?
It's all fantasy, people must believe it or not.

>existence of evil in fact proves God's existence
So why worship him then? If he's god and unwilling to excise evil then he himself must not be benevolent and not worth praise

Looks like that kid shouldn't have used his free will to create his own suffering :^)

only dumb amerifucks are larping as ultra religious christians on here

it is obviously normal to be a fucking idiot over there anyway

>If god is good
>Why does this world have plagues and shit

Again babys first theological argument that amounts to basically bugger all.

A few things, free will. Even if one is incapable of feeling empathy that doesn't mean he has to go killing people, there have been people diagnosed with psychopathy that didn't harm anybody. And also it's up to the people of this world to deal with him, not god.

A second thing is that we were banished from heaven, meaning that now we must deal with our shitty situation, plague and disease included.

And last but not least in Christian doctrine one doesn't stop existing after death. Meaning that all the evil or good things you have done and have suffered can be in a way undone.

>fallacies


I hate this word and I hate people who use this word. Fallacy fags are cancer.

>He's a Praeger university memer

>no moral values to call things good or evil
Yes, precisely. Truth has nothing to do with what's desirable.

Why do you think people like Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Osama, etc lived? They believed what they did was right. Obviously morality is subjective if you consider that crime exists.
Just because YOU can be confident in your moral judgements doesn't make them objective.

>Whether you lived as Teresa or Hitler makes no difference
Except in how you interact with others. Do you want to be remember as one or the other? Do you want to commit suicide after destroying your country at the age of 30 something? Or live until you're 70.
These are all differences.

Read some neurology man. The only things that come close to "inherent" values are extremely broad principles such as "do not impose will over another agent's autonomy"

However the way that that is interpreted by other cultures changes: because muslims don't see women as "agents" they find it more accept able to rape and kill them, etc.

Read Jung you uncultured nigger. There is nothing inherently wrong with a paradox. The nature of life itself is inherently multi-faceted and paradoxical.

Because evil is a human aspect and if we are not able to do evil then we are also unable to do real good and become nothing more than puppets.

>atheists are immoral

that's literally the only argument you can even make anymore and it's total shit

just because your sense of right and wrong got hijacked by a middle eastern belief system doesn't mean you're an authority on morals at all. get the fuck out

Jung was a hippy faggot that forgot that the true basis of philosophy is empiricism

Evil exists, and god allows it to exist. That's not an argument

>Meets a discussion of religious people
>Thinks these are ultra religious people
>Clearly haven't met true ultra religious people

I think you've told us more about yourself than any of us.

You make me glad the wall is going to be built.

10 minutes into the Kybalion my friend. Youtube it. Listen. Absorb rationalist anti-empiricism. Consider that god is a primordial force, and not a Zeus like sky-daddy. I know Italian renaissance art can be quite charming, but it's not the reality.

Jung supported Empiricism, he just wasn't purely materialist.

>rationalist anti-empiricism
Literal contradiction

>I think you've told us more about yourself than any of us.
i insult you and you come up with this ridiculous fucking reply. well done you protestant trash

You can't be a non-materialist and also be an empiricist
There is no evidence for substance dualism
Qualia fags fuck off

Oh so you just inherit problems and that's moral?

The existence of natural disasters that cannot be prevented and which kill millions is totally fine because we're "banished from heaven"?

What the fuck did YOU do to deserve that?

Do you think that the son of a criminal should be put in jail because of the crimes of his father? Is that fair? Is that just?


Every time I take a break from this board I forget that there really are people that are so dull that they believe this shit. Its really sad and pathetic.

Evil is a human aspect, if there is no evil, humans are no longer the same.

we made him up so theres that.

That's easy. There good=right. Evil= wrong.
God has a specific aim for the universe. Humanity is just one part. God does what's right to that aim. To do what's wrong is self defeating, so God does what's right, all ways. Humanity's view point, limited by time and knowledge, is flawed and selfish. God is right, if man chooses to go against God he is wrong and evil. No matter what excuses he may use.

...

what did you or i do to get banished from heaven though? the fact of the matter is that people nowadays could live a completely perfect life and die due to some retarded circumstance that no one deserved because some asshole however long ago fucked up once. thats malevolent

>mortal human on Sup Forums
>actually suggesting that your dismal understanding of life, justice, or existence is anything compared to the Creator's
>obnoxiously claiming to know better than God's plan or Will

You've got a lot of learning to do, boy.

Also, what's your fucking blood-type?

If you are a man of faith, you understand that God's benevolence is irrelevant to what happens in your mere xx years of human life on planet earth.

You can be raped, tortured, killed, maimed, burned alive and yet God is still benevolent user. IF you believe, that is.

Besides that, one could also argue that if someone is SO fucked up as you claim he is, why didn't the other humans do something about it to prevent him from going serial? Do you NOT want to have free will user? Do you want to be absolved of every responsibility and consequence by just saying GOD DID IT! NOT BENEVOLVENT! HA! while you just sit there doing NOTHING?

Lastly, if you don't believe at all, I don't see why you bother yourself with this; There is no God therefore mass murderers are just evil people who are evil for science reasons or etc.

So what? Fuck humans

>leaf
>hates when people point out logical fallacies
>hates qualia
>buttmad atheist
You """people"""

Can't tell if you're retarded? It's the first thing you learn in Philosophy 1010. Empiricism is what you learn with your senses, and it's the model of the scientific method. Rationalism is what you can discern without using sense. So basically particle physics and the existence of something you can't see. It's how the Greeks figured out the world was round and guessed a decent estimate for the circumference based on shadows behind sticks without ever having to circumnavigate it.

Religion is rationalist, philosophically.

You are a degenerate empiricist. No, I'm not here to save you like a good Christian ought to. You should be ridiculed for living in an age where this information is easy to come by and you refuse to learn.

Like budism and a journey to the west becomming a budda, there are different ways of thinking about the jeorny of life. And perhaps Gods learn through difficult life jeorneys simulating reality or to simplify it for you think of it like dreaming if you like.

When I dream I can create people that talk and think and act independently, so no reason a god cannot. So that said, if life is a dream of a god:
- your experience is their experience, your soul returning to god makes a lot more sense in that context.
- can you do wrong in a dream? Can a creature you create do wrong?
- in my dreams I am essencily a god and sometimes I alter reality, sometimes I let situations play out. If you were in my dream you might think you are hurt when you fall and scrape your knee, but when you return to me no one was hurt, it's just a dream.
- demons could be thought of dreams or ideas that get away from you for a bit, but that is all.
- heaven and hell, places we put memories of our dreams and what we learned, sorting out what is good and bad. Like that memory where you were walking around school with your fly unzipped, it may eternally torment you if you think about it, or if you think about a moment or idea you really enjoyed then it is always there, but that is the extent of heaven and hell.

If you think about god being the universe and you're part of a thought or dream, then it all fits pretty well. You shouldn't need to be an evolved AI to figure this out. You have dreams so you should be able to understand.

>Why must I also go through life

If it's so bad kill yourself.

If it's not then deal with it.

The whole "why am I also punished" mentality is irrelevant when again going by Christianity your existence doesn't end after death, and anything that happened here outside of your own actions and reactions irrelevant there.

>First you wouldn't have any moral values

...