Real talk.
In a communist society what is the incentive to work a harder job (Doctor, Engineer) instead of being a fast food worker or cleaner? Surely this is a glaring flaw in the whole ideology right? I don't think people would be a doctor out of the good of their heart with no increase in pay.
Or is my understanding of communism flawed? Do higher skilled jobs actually pay more in a communist world?
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Goodwill. Yes, really
>Or is my understanding of communism flawed?
Yes.
Marx said very little on what a post-capitalist communist society would actually look like. He theorized that the course of human history would end with the abolition of private property, but didn't say much about how exchange or compensation would work.
You could say that there's some ridiculousness in Marx basically going "i dunno lol", but I imagine you already had some idea on how your question would be answered by posters here, and that the intent in asking was to reinforce your preconceptions rather than to sate genuine intellectual curiosity.
This is the answer you seek
If you could choose your jobs freely, I would expect an outcome quite opposite to your theory.
Why should anybody to the "simple" and unpleasant work if they could study for free to become an architect or whatever they dream of?
Who would work in the sewerage if they could be a (((movie star)))?
Communism was never meant to empower the working class. They are cannon fodder, or were, during the 1960s communists realised that they would never perform a revolution under welfare states and instead went out looking for new hopes, which lead to so called Cultural Marxism (women, blacks and gays mobilised by radical students as the revolutionary class), Maoism (peasants), Third worldism (inhabitants of poor countries), Multiculturalism (non-whites imported unto white countries) etc.
Communism is about giving power to the intelligentsia. This is why the intelligentsia is the class that clings the most to the communist ideal.
Hell, best as I can tell the whole shebang relies on the working class never attempting to switch jobs or improve their lot in life - work in a factory until you drop, and then your kid takes your place. Sounds like hell to me.
>Surely this is a glaring flaw in the whole ideology right?
Well geez, if that were true the whole thing would probably end in mass starvation, and if that happened we'd learn that in history in school eh?
Fucking hell. Still cracks me up.
lol
so basically that's your not so clever way of saying you don't have the intellectual capacity to give him an answer.
>what is the incentive to work a harder job
You'll be killed if you don't do it, probably.
The point is to get jews into an eternal position of power over all humans, it is nonsense for goys to fall for.
>in a communism
Communism just can't work because we are people and we need a motivation for work and private property.
Stop discussing about utopic theory of XIX century and do something nice and useful. Join some right-wing organisation for example.
We aren't bound to be essentialy right wing, but we are bound to be anti-communist! Join VoL and represent our 4 values in the struggle against this scum ideology!
intelligentsia are generally more idealistic, or rather less practical, about the world is probably what would explain that, they don't want power, they exert it to their ideals and change society enabling then to get more power
>Or is my understanding of communism flawed? Do higher skilled jobs actually pay more in a communist world?
I'll put my money on this one.
Trump is equally corrupt as the previous establishment and the media
There's definitely a change of faces, but hardly for the better
This.
I don't know where the
>everybody gets paid the same in communism
meme comes from.
If you look at the crippling economic disparities in most communist countries I think it's pretty obviouisly not true.
But then it's not equal is it? Then we're at capitalism but no currency, so pretty worthless system.
The meme behind communism is that every member of society is supposed to be an equal partner in the ownership of the societies wealth.
In practice some people just end up being more equal than others.
I always adored that term, more equal than other, we have a pretty similiar sentence in Poland too.
Too bad for commies the free market already learned how to commidify that: it's called religion.
Communism can't get anything right.
AFAIK it's derived from a George Orwell quote.
All ideologies are flawed because they don't look at what happens after the end-game. Colonization of Earth-like planets and moons in other galaxies is the only goal human should have, but doesn't seem to care about in modern society.
One would wish to accumulate self-wealth instead of material wealth.
Basically the same idea now that some people like to work hard and be better than those around them, and some are just lazy slime.
People would work for the social status instead of the financial status
>communism
Who needs that trash?
Seems pretty vague, can you please explain more.
From what i've understand, that still pretty much means that the cleaner has the same wealth as the engineer, which destroys positive reinforcement/reward system.
well you know, that's news to me - and, i imagine, those idiotic enough to believe this crippled system would ever properly function
the vast majority of their arguments comes down to redistribution of wealth. take that away, and what's left?
oh, and btw - given two factories, one more successful than the other; is it "fair" to the workers of the less successful, that the workers of the more successful receive higher wages, when in reality it's management that fucked up?
and who exactly sponsors the loss, when the losses of the first takes it to an inevitable bankruptcy? the state?
if so - why?
I don't think equality is possible.
Humans always inevitably find a way to project status and power over others in any system.
>All ideologies are flawed because they don't look at what happens after the end-game
not quite.
capitalism addresses means, not ends. ie, we want a set of laws equal to everyone, within which you're allowed to seek your fortune.
socialism addresses ends, not means. ie, if you become excessively wealthy (where a set definition of 'excess' doesn't actually exist), we will redistribute your wealth in a "fair" way (where "fair" isn't properly defined either).
Thx Nip. /thread
both of my parents are space engineers and working since mid-70s in USSR.
There was no real financial incentive for them to be engineers, but obviously they didn't want to work on factory\plant and doing stupid labour and be part of not very intellectual social circle.
I'm saying that communist theory says very little about what post-capitalist society would look like, including compensation for services. I'm not a Marxist. Pick up a book for once in your life, faggot.
there is no incentive to work harder.
There is an incentive of doing what you enjoy; evidenced by NEET shitposters. But obviously man is flawed.
Anyone here capitalist but thinks that we're headed to automated post-modernity anyway as well?
I get that, but when all that is done with then? What entices capitalists to reinvest in the advancement of humanity? Because God knows nobody can or will in socialism.
you know, that's actually rather telling. they clearly don't even know themselves.
That might be true, and i don't know if this counts as capitalism's flaw since it's pretty much outside already, but i think it's government corruption.
Well, obviously, if one becomes excessively wealthy, he tries staying wealthy using his wealth. And corruption is the easiest answer.
Socialism? Not much better.
the vast majority of wealth is stored in assets, such as bonds and equity - both of which are cornerstones of the capitalist model.
ie - when your company needs or wants to raise cash, it either sells debt, or files for an IPO.
>I don't think equality is possible.
>Humans always inevitably
Communists thought about that a lot, and soviet communists in particular were proclaiming new type of human - new soviet man
en.wikipedia.org
Obviously human psyche should be altered to let communist happen, either via some social engineering and brain washing or even via genetic engineering.
But yep, take humans as they are now, and build communism is absolute utopia, even if all other (e.g. economical) conditions are met.
Real talk, nigga
>kys
i don't really think corruption ties in exclusively with either. i think it's highly prevalent, regardless of the system.
transparency, regulation and oversight usually help in this regard, though within reason. you don't want to end up with a red tape nightmare, when nothing happens until it goes through 7 government departments...
A) alot of people get harder to do and get jobs because it pays more.
B)people have proven time and time again that most are actually lazy, willing to do as little ans as easy of work as they can get away with and still get what they want.
these are not contradictory, as what people want is often that higher pay so they are willing to put in the effort. many however are not.
without any incentive and reward for the higher and harder job you would see a drop in those willing to do them, guaranteed.
why be a farmer if you get no more share of the crops then the man pulling a lever in a factory? why be a doctor if you get no better life(in care, expenses, etc) then the drunkard down the street?
there are genuinely good people out there, but not all of them are fit to be doctors, and they certainly are not the majority of the population.
There's literally no reason to be a nurse in most capitalist countries with socialised healthcare because you get paid nothing and treated like shit
Yet people still do it for the good of the country
Because studying is hard you fuckwit. Becoming a doctor or an engineer is hard. Being a doctor or an engineer is hard.
>why be a doctor if you get no better life(in care, expenses, etc) then the drunkard down the street?
Because your passion in life is being a helping people instead of paying a mortgage.
Provided a doctor went through the same schooling would you rather have one that got paid the same as a fast food worker? Or the one chasing money?
>In a communist society what is the incentive to work a harder job (Doctor, Engineer) instead of being a fast food worker or cleaner?
Not getting a bullet in the head for refusing to obey the government?
That's he issue though, would people truly strive as hard for arduous mathematics based jobs if they knew their compensation wouldn't offset the investment?
honestly the one chasing money because he will get paid more if hes good at his job.
money is a good motivator, history tells us that if nothing else.
also just look at,well, Europe, america, you name it. there are so many higher end jobs that need filling, many states will even pay for school/training for.
they are still empty. worse, people go and get degrees that are useless but otherwise easier to get.
supply and demand of capitalism cant even fill the job quotas perfectly why would LESS incentive to get those higher paying jobs suddenly do the trick?
oh because there's just so many people that want to become petroleum engineers out of the kindness of their heart, duh! They would do it even if it didn't pay 3x the median salary!
Yes. I don't think the true ardous mathematicians are that rich; the ones on the cutting field. Shit can you even patent mathematical laws discovered?
The novice mathematician will go into business and make a shit more money.
That's very naive.
Men who are actually passionate working in their jobs are pretty rare. You'd understand that after a long time of being an employer.
You'd also understand that having a reward system is necessary if you want things to progress.
Reminds me of workers unions. Get paid same (or less) than the lazy malingering sonuvabitch next to you. Never mind that you are twice as productive as he. Unions promote mediocrity.
>honestly the one chasing money because he will get paid more if hes good at his job
He also has the intention of keeping you sick rather than keeping you well right? You well means no more money for him. You don't think there are any flaws in the capitalistic idea of healthcare?
Wow, it's almost like you're saying that doing useful things gets you high salaries.. Appalling!
>Men who are actually passionate working in their jobs are pretty rare
but they the ones best in their field are they not?
Nigga wtf do u think happens if word gets out that a doc ''keeps his patients sick''? He'll be out of his field for GOOD.
this.
most retards think marx wrote a shitload about communism but das kapital is entirely about capitalism.
The main incentive one has to become a doctor or engineer in communism is to be able to flee that shithole and find work in a free country, which is exactly what happened in many of those countries.
Okay simple rights question for you.
Should mathematical laws be subject to intellectual property?
not necessarily true. i know many people who are intently passionate about what they do, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have a natural talent to pursue this topic
it's pretty much a direct quote from animal farm.
'...some animals are more equal than others'
>right wing socialism is bad
But even if socialism is bad in it's nature, why not implement the ideology to a capitalist society?
I had a foot fungus in America that I was charged $100 for the cream. it didnt do shit. 20c of baking soda cured it over two weeks. The pharma comp paid her to sell their shit cream. Where was the incentive to just tell me to use baking soda?
I am a burger btw and this happened in burgerland
>implying you get to choose your job under communism
If there is a shortage of doctors, the central planning committee will just conscript a bunch of smart kids and force them to become doctors. The only downside is that the committee will probably be corrupt and incompetent and unable to fill multiple shortages at once. See Cuba. Doctors are literally the only thing they don't have a shortage of.
You would argue that people chase both fame and fortune though?
You don't think Trump became president to become more rich do you?a
Do you not believe him when he said"I dont care about the money anymore; I just have fun in playing the game.
It's a fallacious criticism, because it assumes that the only incentive for working those jobs is money, when it has been proven that money is very often the least important factor for those professionals (if given the choice, they would much rather take a much lower wage than switch to an easier, better paying job)- it is like asking 'In capitalism, what is the incentive to become a doctor or an engineer, when you could become a football player or pop star that pays a much higher wage?' - it doesn't make any sense in the real world.
he cant cure me i go to a different doctor.
i die because hes an idiot who thinks he can just not fix my leg and ill keep paying bills, he loses customers, thus money.
we live in a capitalistic society now and doctors arent trying to make and keep me sick. nor would they in a communist one despite not getting paid any more.
the difference is both are in deep shit if they try and fuck me and others over, but only the capitalist doctor after money can get more money by being better.
capitalism isnt perfect. nothing is ever perfect. but you're really naive if only because we(or at least me) live in literal proof that doctors arent going to IV tap poison in you to keep raking in hospital bills.
Cartelized medicine which is practically a prostitute to Big Pharma is a cause of protectionist regulation they lobbied hard for in the past.
Seriously, research what happened in your country with the AMA and how it manipulated the healthcare market to turn it into the turd it has become nowadays.
True, but so is the guy who's working hard to get promoted to a higher job to provide a better life to his family.
Both of them are pretty passionate, just not on the same thing.
Given that, i'd obviously take a lot of passionate people than wait for the rare ones.
...
yeah guess what?
now you know not to go back to that doctor.
also in all honesty, cant be sure, but its not impossible they just mis diagnosed the type of fungi. some are rarer then others and i know, both fungi and diseases, they sometimes see symptoms that relate to one thing more common then another and thus dont check for anything else.
shit and shouldn't happen, but again, even less incentive if you wont get more customers by being correct and helpful more often.
>but you're really naive if only because we(or at least me) live in literal proof that doctors arent going to IV tap poison in you to keep raking in hospital bills.
No but they'll charge you $500/liter of saline water drip.
You're pretty retarded if you don't think there's a healthcare problem in the US.
You underestimated the power of brainwash. Communism is a religion.
that kinda shit happens all the time though. I go to one doc with an ear thing and he tells me to buy $150 cream(w/insurance). I don't cause fuck that. I go back later, same office, see his sister instead actually which was interesting. She prescribes me antibiotics which are given freely at a local supermarket.
Let's say there's a man who publishes a law/math formula describing how air flows around a board. For all he cares, it's useless and he has only done so to bump his publication list.
Said mathematician doesn't realize that's how planes can fly, an engineer sees the equations, kickstarts a plane company and makes a fortune. Should he pay the mathematician some percentage of his profits?
This is a question of implementation, not of principles.
hmmm. That seems pretty retarded. A mathemetician studying air flows is at least partly a physicist. and and would understand that low pressure would create lift.
when did i say there isnt a healthcare problem in the US you cunt?
i said the doctors have more incentive to properly diagnose and fix me. a $500 saline drip incentive.
our medical bills are insane and they shouldn't be, but our doctors are far from terrible at their jobs, hell they have ALOT of incentive to do their job properly, both on lawsuits, return customers, and paychecks.
also hard to GET that $500 from a corpse or someone stuck in a bed and unable to go to work to slowly pa it off.
seriously fuck off with that shit, just because you dont like or have an argument you cherrypick a single sentence then jump loops to make it be something i never even implied so you can both change the topic of the discussion and try and win through arguments not even being made.
fucking communist fucking shithead, fuck try to actually discuss shit with you and you instead decide to be a fucking faggot, who could've fucking guessed?
He wouldve noticed it in the wind tunnel...
Meanwhile Sup Forums is shilling for capitalism despite the fact that capitalism can't be the end game
If you're good at something don't do it for free. It's the mathematician's fault for releasing that information for free.
He can live off his work if someone hires him to develop such formulas or buys them. If he releases that information he's got nobody to blame but himself.
lol u so mad bro.
I've had far more shit doctors than good ones.
You'd be suprised how many mahematicians and physicist don't realize how what they're doing might be used commercially.
never had that problem.
though i also dont go to the doctor unless i feel i absolutely need to because $10 or $500 dollars if i can just power through it, or in the case of athletes foot, just pickup a random cheap brand or two and one of them works, why waste time going to a doctor in the first place?
still, never had a doctor fuck me over when i have gone, at least in what he prescribes i mean.
i dont know anyone who has either.
because cleaning up people's shit as a janitor sucks? If janitors and artists and traveling musicians got paid the same amount nobody would be a janitor and you would have about 10,000% more traveling musicians/artists who just wanna see the world maaan
>inhales weed.
...
>You'd be suprised how many mahematicians and physicist don't realize how what they're doing might be used commercially.
So they're studying it more as a passion than a monetary thing?
Thanks for proving my point.
...
Yeah, that's my opinion on the matter as well. People need to think about how they can make this world a better place, i.e. how they can produce value. They need to leave the ivory tower and pull their head out their asses.
What's the incentive to work hard in a nominally capitalist society? Here's something I became acquainted with this year... Tax brackets.
In 2015 I made $85k. In 2016, I made $102k, because I worked harder, put in more hours and worked "premium shifts." I put in the extra effort to enrich my family and find a better lot in life...
But little did I know that I was straddling a tax bracket... And that, after income tax deductions, I earned almost exactly the same amount of take home income.
Tax brackets in Canada only go up to $200,000+... Which really doesn't target the right people. I live in Vancouver, have to be in the region for work, our household income doesn't go very far and you pretty much have to have a household income of $200k to live a comfortable middle-class lifestyle and own a detached home here. I have my family piled into a vertical cuck shed. Despite the ease of doing business in this country, our commitment to "free trade" and an egalitarian economy, you're being punished for working hard, especially if you live in any of the three big cities.
Sure, the guy earning $200k in Turtleford, Saskatchewan is probably kicking ass... But a dude that grew up in Vancouver and doesn't want to leave and make room for rich foreign pieces of shit? Yeah, he's getting fucked.
Neo-liberalism, folks... Not even once.
No, my point was merely that they're stupid in this sense.
yes, because every fucking commie ive ever tried to have a reasonable discussion with ends up just like you.
they ignore parts they dont like or have no answer to then cherrypick a single sentence, often out of context when taken in my full post, then go further still and dont even apply an argument to it that even the sentence by itself would imply. they often use this to move to a conversation topic they think they have a better chance at "Winning" because apparently conversations cant be about simply discussing ideas it has to be a fucking competition.
sick and tired of trying to be reasonable with you people, no fucking wonder most of Sup Forums doesn't even try and just flings memes at you faggots.
also this fits well enough to both your posts.
i don't really care about trump in this regard. i can point to many an example of people who are, frankly, wasting their time chasing fields they will never succeed in.
Because you still only need so many of each profession in any economy. There's only so many jobs to go around.
Ive had several so perhaps that leads to my bias.
I had a rockstar surgeon once who put my stitches in so well the retarded nurse missed one and my skin grew over it for a month or so. Fortunetly a kind urgent care doc took it out for free because she pitied me. But if I had gone through the paperwork there it probably wouldve costed $100 (I'd fucking invoice the office that fucked up of course though)
they do it for fame instead of money.
Einstein's name is more well known than Rockefeller's.
>Meanwhile Sup Forums is shilling for capitalism despite the fact that capitalism can't be the end game
there IS no defined "end game" for capitalism. that's the whole bloody point. you are free to pursue whatever you'd like, provided you follow the law of the land.
>despite the fact that capitalism can't be the end game
true
the game ends when another system takes over and kills all of us
>"To each according to his need, from each according to his ability"
In other words: if you have the mental skills to become a doctor/engineer/etc., be one, or get thrown in the gulag.
im a fucking trump supporter you dumbass. A former libertarian/ancap too; never been a fucking commie. But I don't hold convictions like a faggot either.
You full retard ancap or lolbertarian?