Can we have a serious discussion on Brexit?

The German finance ministry says: “Any Article 50 agreement will have to include the UK’s assurances that it will honour the financial commitments it undertook as an EU member state.”

Heribert Hirte, a legal expert for Ms Merkel’s Christian Democrats and member of the Bundestag EU affairs committee, adds that a breakdown over finances would “rule out any chance” of negotiating the future UK-EU relations agreement.

Other German officials and politicians also highlight the obstacles to a mutually satisfactory deal. Detlef Seif, the CDU’s parliamentary Brexit spokesman, says: “We all see it’s going to be difficult. It would be a miracle if we got a good result.”

Norbert Spinrath, Brexit spokesman for Mr Schulz’s Social Democrats, says: “We expect the British to do the honourable thing. If they don’t, the EU can take them to the international courts.”

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union
lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html
ec.europa.eu/budget/explained/management/deciding/deciding_detail/decide_detail_en.cfm
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

>Sup Forums

>serious discussion

uhh

Fuck these kikes

Out is out

We would have serious discussion more often if fags like you didn't ruin it so much.

The anglo will pay for his backstabbing treachary.

We'll keep our financial agreements when you keep yours Germany. You owe Trump $300 billion, get paying it.

Yeah, ... not really.

Personally I don't see how brexit could be a good thing. They wanted control of the boarders? Great, noone from Europe can enter. What are they going to do about millions of pakis and other sandpeople? Nothing because they're not from EU. So they still have massive immigration, but now whites are baned. Trade deals? With who? US? They will deal with EU first because of the mass. UK is left with what? India? Brexit ftw

Basically : "I'm a dickhead with countries that doesn't follow MY politic, and I will make fucked up laws just to piss'em off".

Calm down there, Ahmed.

You had a financial agreement to spend 2% of your GDP on your own defence, for this you would receive various benefits like the protection of the US.

You reaped all the benefits but consistently failed to meet the financial agreement you had.

Pay your own debts before you demand others pay their future debts.

And that is bad (not to mention anti Sup Forums) why?

Here's the only thing Merkel should be concerned about right now...

You're not Trump are you?

Seriously, the last hundred years you've been doing nothing but piggybacking the americans.

The thing about brexit is, if the EU does well we are seriously fucked.
If the EU fails afterwards there are plenty of opportunities to work with other countries/blocs that may form.

I mean the EU will lose British contributions if we dont pay. that means that the other Net contributor states will have to have to shoulder more.

If France leaves then whats really left to fund the EU project?

>international courts
What?

>You had a financial agreement to spend 2% of your GDP on your own defence, for this you would receive various benefits like the protection of the US.
No, read the actual guidelines, idiot. The summit agreeing on the 2% was in your own damn country.
-----

We agree to reverse the trend of declining defence budgets, to make the most effective use of our funds and to further a more balanced sharing of costs and responsibilities. Our overall security and defence depend both on how much we spend and how we spend it. Increased investments should be directed towards meeting our capability priorities, and Allies also need to display the political will to provide required capabilities and deploy forces when they are needed. A strong defence industry across the Alliance, including a stronger defence industry in Europe and greater defence industrial cooperation within Europe and across the Atlantic, remains essential for delivering the required capabilities. NATO and EU efforts to strengthen defence capabilities are complementary. Taking current commitments into account, we are guided by the following considerations:
Allies currently meeting the NATO guideline to spend a minimum of 2% of their Gross Domestic Product (GDP) on defence will aim to continue to do so. Likewise, Allies spending more than 20% of their defence budgets on major equipment, including related Research & Development, will continue to do so.
Allies whose current proportion of GDP spent on defence is below this level will:
halt any decline in defence expenditure;
aim to increase defence expenditure in real terms as GDP grows;
aim to move towards the 2% guideline within a decade with a view to meeting their NATO Capability Targets and filling NATO's capability shortfalls.

>$300 billion
Wouldn't you write 300 billion dollarydoos as "$billion 300"?

Any country can let immigrants in. When they are citizens, they can come over through schengen. It's obvious british people don't want mass immigration and see it as a high priority. One wants to hope the conservatives see that.

You seem to have forgotten all the numbers comparison on UK spending on eu vs not. As I remember brexit guys said "they were wrongly understood" when they were called on theyr bluff.

>The German finance ministry says: “Any Article 50 agreement will have to include the UK’s assurances that it will honour the financial commitments it undertook as an EU member state.”

the german finance ministry can fuck right off

hey, germany. pay your outstanding NATO and Greek obligations before you start lecturing others.

>british people

You are giving your species a bit too much credit there.

(((International courts)))

>serious discussion
newfag detected

How did we backstab you? Just because you eat shit and like it doesn't mean we have to be tied to your dining table.

The EU is not going to do shit.
Not because they don't want to or because they don't have the power to do so, but because it takes the EU about a decade to finish even the most mundane task.

Gotta love the bitter "Aryan"

What's there to discuss? Not much.
It's a bit unexpected that the EU looks so united regarding Brexit. Different countries have different economic relations with the UK. Also the German car industry has been quite restrained. Maybe they got told to get a really good deal when they don't interfere.

>[..] adds that a breakdown over finances would “rule out any chance” of negotiating the future UK-EU relations agreement.
That's pretty bold. Impossible to hold up.

* eu vs nhs
Damn autocorect

Article 50 is the method for exit and mentions nothing about financial penalties.

Other articles do not mention that there will be financial penalties in case of an exit.

Clause 1 of the contract says: you must do XYZ. Clause 2 of the contract says: you can cancel the contract this way. In that case, canceling the contract obviously cannot lead to penalties for """not doing""" XYZ.

>That's pretty bold. Impossible to hold up.
The EU position is to sign an agreement on the divorce and get the money from the UK BEFORE any UK-EU post-Brexit relationship is negotiated.

The sick man of the world is making demands?

How many votes are needed to immediately kick out germany from the EU?

it's not a penalty for leaving.
the cost comes from other contracts like paying the pensions for certain people

My EU law teacher keeps spreading propaganda about how the UK economy will crash in the very next year after the end of the negociations if they go for a "hard" brexit because of no more single market etc

it's impossible to kick out members.
they must leave on their own :^)

You better pay your denbt, too.
ALL OF YOU PAY YOUR FUCKING DENBT!

>Article 50 is the method for exit and mentions nothing about financial penalties.

yeah but krauts will start looking for loopholes just about now

>How many votes are needed to immediately kick out germany from the EU?

can't throw out germany, you need the sucker to pick up the tab

everyone's a friend of germany's as long as they pay for the bar tab

Whites are banned? Where do you people get this fucking shit from? May is raising the threshold that non EU citizens must earn to be able to come here, so that will rule out thousands of bottom feeders right away. And don't pretend for one second that EU immigration = white immigration, not only are all those "refugees" going to get EU citizenship and therefore free movement rights but our European neighbours have very leaky borders and shit immigration policies already, pic very related.

We'll just Jew our way out of it.

hah, i'm a bong on a dutch VPN

>Article 50 is the method for exit and mentions nothing about financial penalties.

The point is not financial penalities. The point is that there is an EU budget until 2020 and the UK voted for it including its financial obligations under the budget.

Outside of the EU budget, there are other long term projects of the EU which Britain has signed agreements with obligations including e.g. space and defense projects or long-term infrastructure programs such as railways or highways co-funded by the EU.

And you have no intention on comparing actual spending amount I'm guessing. I only hope that you understand that 1% Germany is way more than 2% Belgium

>the cost comes from other contracts like paying the pensions for certain people

See:

>Clause 2 of the contract says: you can cancel the contract this way.

If the obligation to pay pensions follow from being a member of the EU, and there is a defined and agreed way of not being a member which mentions nothing at all about continuing obligations, then the EU is obviously bound by that.

Otherwise you are into the absurd scenario of having obligations under the contract, and a way to cancel the contract, and the claim that even if you cancel the contract as agreed you still somehow have obligations under it when no such thing was agreed previously.

>We'll just Jew our way out of it.
You seriously think that? When has such a thing ever happened?

We didnt vote for your country to fuck up the EU.
so no thanks, you aint getting a penny

>kick out one of the two net contributors left
and why exactly would you do that, italy? if france or germany leave, even the last weak excuse for staying in that union would be gone.

Does article 50 mention continuing obligations to fund the budget?

Does article 50 mention that obligations on EU members remain on those that exit?

300 G$?

budgets are resubmitted every year, hans

and they're always in flux

you actually thinking you can extort 60bn off of us is as ludicrous as trump expecting you to settle your outstanding $300bn bill.

The freedom of Brits is an insult to me. I'd have them all in zoos.

And how's that a bad thing?

We should build a wall around that pathetic island famalam :^)

We are not stupid enough to give you dosh before we have anything in return. We may give you an IOU note but if we get a shit deal then we pay you shit.

I'm just wondering why you'd want to kick out Germany (which implies Italy would stay in the EU) rather than just leaving on your own.

This. There is alot of scaremongering that Britain is becoming a "Fascist" kingdom that only allows British White to come and go. This is mentally retarded.

Europeans will still be allowed into the UK, but only those who meet the requirements, and not bottom feeding "Refugees" at are supposedly 10 but are actually 25 year old men.

Anglos will have to pay to 'get back in' without getting back in. All the negatives without the positives and they have to pay more. Thanks Nige.

We're done with EU bullshit. Screw you, Hans. Wendesday = Article 50. HAPPY ARTICLE 50 DAY BRIT-BROS.

VOTE LEAVE, FUCK THE PAKIS.

Or what?

What is Germany going to do if the UK doesn't abide those unilateral demands?

You don't own the UK. Half the point of Brexit is getting away from this kind of overreach by Berlin and Brussels.

>budgets are resubmitted every year, hans
Not in the EU, the EU got a 7yr budget, the last was passed for the period 2014 to 2020. The annual budgets have to comply with the 7yr agreement and have only little wiggle room.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union

>implying you will get less pakis
kek

hah, yeah please make some explicit threats. would be nice to show the rest of your "partners" exactly who you are

go settle italy's bar tab, sucker.

In case of UK immigration = immigration from Baltics, Poland etc. Everything else is just peanuts.

no lol wtf

They're paying hard ball. Trying to get us to give up our bargaining chips before we can use them to secure anything meaningful.

They need the money, rather desperately. They'll break before we do.

>tfw article 50 is less than 48 hours away

Seeing how Brexit is going, it's easier to just dismantle the union than just leave

>What is Germany going to do if the UK doesn't abide those unilateral demands?

Then they leave the EU without a deal.

Which means no trade deal, no access to the single market, massive obstacles to exports and imports from and to the UK.

The day of the tootbrush is coming, bongs.

>We are not stupid enough to give you dosh before we have anything in return.
In that case there will be no deal then, because the EU and the key EU countries have already agreed that 1. comes the divorce negotiation and payment of money and 2. comes the post-EU trade relationship negotiation.

lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.


It follows quite clearly that the consequences of an exit shall be the product of negotiations - hence with no continuing obligations.

It also follows quite clearly that the Treaties shall cease to apply.

When the treaties cease to apply, the most elementary reading is that obligations under the treaty ceases to apply.

Otherwise we are back to the situation with a contract you can withdraw from in a defined way, where the withdrawal clause mentions nothing about continuing obligations, and instead decides that negotiations will produce the terms of the withdrawal.

fair enough I guess

>What is Germany going to do if the UK doesn't abide those unilateral demands?
Nothing. In that case the UK would breach international agreements and there would be no post-Brexit trade or other deal because the UK would walk away from the negotiation table disgruntled.

We can do whatever we want unless everyone but us creates another union in europe but then we'll just ally with russia since we're on very good terms with them.

ah ok. Makes sense.

If France and southern Europe leaves it would finally be a worthwhile union.

They don't call us perfidious Albion for nothing.

>Which means no trade deal

which means no trade deal for Germany, it works both ways Hans

Remember when Brits were all like
>hey let's start negotiating before triggering article 50!

and merkel was all like
>lmao nah

and the rest of the EU was like
>lmao UK BTFO

>They're paying hard ball. Trying to get us to give up our bargaining chips before we can use them to secure anything meaningful.
>They need the money, rather desperately. They'll break before we do.

That is not how the EU works, lad. The funny thing about the EU is that the people who negotiate have absolutely nothing to lose. there are no voters Michel Barnier or Juncker have to answer to. The EU is not a democracy, so they can negotiate in the most disgusting way there is. Michel Barnier gets paid money if he negotiates well or if he is the biggest pushover ever.

>we'll just ally with russia since we're on very good terms with them.
Kek

PAY DEBTS
A
Y

D
E
B
T
S

I have to give the Germ one point - the offer right now is "pay what you agreed to pay a while ago, even if not bound by contract to do so, and then we'll renegotiate deals with the EU"

The UK isn't forced to pay it, they can just say no and walk away. Then they just don't get any new negotiations with the EU

Germany already has access to the EU's single market, we're not dependent on a trade deal with UK.

You are.

ec.europa.eu/budget/explained/management/deciding/deciding_detail/decide_detail_en.cfm

> Budget may be amended after adoption

> In the event of unavoidable, exceptional or unforeseen circumstances, the Commission may propose during the year, that the budget as adopted be amended; it does this by submitting draft amending budgets.

feel free to suggest that Brexit is not an "unavoidable, exceptional or unforeseen circumstances"

Because you'd have to default every year or so?

>We can do whatever we want

yeah, hans, that's why we're leaving. your proto-fascist tendencies are showing.

>which means no trade deal for Germany, it works both ways Hans
Germany successfully exports to countries on WTO terms - the UK does not. The UK is a service export orientated country, Germany is a machinery export orientated country. Very different situations.

Also, the UK government has suggested that in case of no trade deal, they would do a "no tariffs for anyone" under WTO terms (most favored nation situation), i.e. German cars could continue be exported to the UK while cars made in Britain would face a 10% tariff if exported to the EU.

>That is not how the EU works, lad.

The EU runs on rainbows does it?

No, they need money. Our money. We know this, and they are trying their best to hide it while using whatever mean necessary to get us to hand it over before they are forced into an ever more difficult position overt it.

unavoidable => no, uk could stay
exceptional => no, it's possible to leave the union under the current law
unforseen => no, there is plenty of time

Well you dont seem to follow geopolitics my friend.

For starters, look up how Germany reacted in the 'Ukraine crisis' and compare it to how the UK reacted. Or Syria. Or the trade sanctions. or the gas prices o

google gerhard schroeder. he is correct, Germany has a pretty good relationship with Russia.
we are actually working hard on undermining that (or at least did under Obama) because the combination of German know-how and Russian resources/land/manpower would be threatening

you can argue that the EU had projected gainz that we are losing out on. doesn't seem too weird to me. you leave a contract unexpetedly, one where you were going to be making payments to someone, they're gonna think you wrongly took away their money.

it's not crazy and it's a great way to squeeze the fucking bastards

> the offer right now is "pay what you agreed to pay a while ago, even if not bound by contract to do so, and then we'll renegotiate deals with the EU"

The agreement to pay was as participant under the treaty. The exit clause says that the treaty ceases to apply and a withdrawal will be negotiated.

If Germany insists on a payment, that is simply a negotiation demand like any other. The UK might as well say: Pay us $1trn because you have not negotiated as you were obliged to under article 50.

Brexit was avoidable in that there was no need for Cameron to call for a referendum.

It was exceptional, as in "exceptionally stupid". Rural and suburban retards should be banned from voting.

There is nothing "unforeseen" about the circumstances regarding Brexit. You held a referendum, you voted, 9 months later you trigger Article 50, 2 years later you're kicked out. It follows a logical and foreseeable chain of events.

Why should 27 EU members vote to get the UK out of all its obligations? Seriously, why?

>Which means no trade deal, no access to the single market, massive obstacles to exports and imports from and to the UK.

ah yeah because your car industry obviously won't be hit by this.

in fact, as our imports from germany are twice our exports, you'll most certainly be hit just as well.

you live in fucking fantasy land. but then, you vote in those politicians of yours, so frankly, i'm not surprised.

>exceptional => no, it's possible to leave the union under the current law


>It's possible to do X
>therefore X is not exceptional

If that was the case, we wouldn't be the only ones, thus "each man for themselves" apply, and fuck those who can't float

>ah yeah because your car industry obviously won't be hit by this.

Yes, it will take a hit, but seeing how UK is one of many, many export markets, there is not a single industry in Europe that is dependent on access to the UK to survive.

You, on the other hand, NEED a deal. Desperately.

And why would anyone remotely relevant what to come to non eu country from EU? You don't see millions of immigrants kneeling to be allowed to live in North Korea, Russia, etc. (all the closed countries)

remember when your club was all
> uk will be put in the back of the queue wrt US-bound trading

but then the US was all, like, nah UK, mate, you're right at the, front of the queue.

LOL EU remoaner propaganda BTFO