How would a communist economy determine the value of goods or services?

How would a communist economy determine the value of goods or services?

Divide by 7 billion?

everyone is paid equally and given what they own by the state. There is no value in anything.

They wing it

What if one person does a better job than another, or they have a harder job?

Tough titties

Doesn't matter. Everyone is equal in a communist system. A coal miner is equal to a CEO in relation to how much they're worth to the government.

Socialists realized that there would be no way for the resource allocation to automatically adjust like it would in a free market so they came up with central planning. That's why leftism is impossible without a state.

so a piece of wood is the same value as a piece of steel?

No, but the steelworker has the same value as the carpenter

what incentive is there for someone to spend 10 years in higher education to become a highly specialized doctor if they receive the same pay as a factory worker that has 0 education?

why would someone work harder than they have to in such a situation?

They are executed for not believing in the system hard enough.

pretty much

funny that he didn't respond after that

Bullshit. Communism does not circumvent the basics of power at all. The CEO will have more influentual decisions during his job, thus more power, thus more beaurocrats currying his favor, thus worth more and rewarded more.

>mfw marxists say after peak communism the state will dissolve

kek, this giant all powerful all controlling state that is absolutely necessary to keep this whole disaster going with its forced labor camps and torture prisons is suddenly going to relinquish its power. Party members are suddenly going to give up their limos and hotels and join the proles in the fields and somehow the whole system is going to keep going along without a hitch.

The issue with commies is that their misunderstanding of economics comes from their inability to understand human nature. Greed. Property. Competition. These are all inherent in the nature of man and beat it out of us over 3 generations, the day the state disappears man will want to keep the goods he has worked for and not hand it to the other who hasnt. This is why capitalism works, you accept that its in the nature of man and use it your advantage.

>It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.

And all of a sudden when we accept this we go from mass famine to mass obesity

A bunch of bureaucrats in offices look over economic statistics and then determine prices based on factors like production and consumption. It's a lot more work and prices are stickier than the private market, so it's a shitty system that either causes shortages or surpluses.

Look into Arepera Socialista in Venezuela. Chavez started commie fast food chain that sells (sold?) food for about 1/4 of the price of eating at a McDonald's. The food is supposed to be good and, but the prices are too low so the restaurants were always swamped with people.

But equilibrium theory is wrong.

They can't. Google the economic calculation problem. Von Mises debunked communism in the 1920s

The only functional form of communism other than small communities that share everything would be to automate EVERYTHING. Even machines to repair and maintain other machines.
Once we create a powerful enough learning AI we could have it orchestrate equal distribution of goods and constantly have it strive to improve tge efficiency of the system while also looking after the needs of its humans.
Basically it would become a utopia or a dystopia

How about you take an econ class? Price of good A can be measured in relation to the price of good B.

You measure the marginal cost of producing good A based on how much of good B you give up to make it.
You could assign one good like hamburgers as the standard and compare everything to hamburgers.

So your new car would be worth the amount of hamburgers your commune gave up to produce it.

By recognizing that your new car cost 1000 hamburgers that could have gone to 1.5 hamburgers per unit medicine you start to understand why communism has the same self fixing properties as capitalism.

In practice - they look at capitalist economies and copy their prices. This largely happens through market forces anyway because they TRADE with market economies (lol) and in doing so they tie their resources to the global market price. It then makes little sense for them to give a local price that is enormously different from this, except they usually try anyway with a few of the GLORIOUS PROLETARIAT GOODS like bread, which they decide should be suuuuuper cheap to feed the masses, which of course blows up in their face and leads to crazy lines and rationing.

It's pushed by social science students that offer no substantial contribution of their trade to a value based economy. Go figure.

its amazing how long ago this shit was proven to not work. Von mises proved that shit long ago and sicne then we've had a ridiculous amount of failed attempts and millions dead. What the fuck is it about this ideology that keeps em coming back

Marx says that the value of a good is determined by the amount of labour put into it. This is the mistake socialists made. The value of a good is actually determined by how much value a consumer places in it. Fucking stupid theory led to millions of deaths.

So if I make something completely useless that takes an incredible amount of labour like a tiny upside-down house made out of razorblades and tic-tacs glued together piece by piece over a 40 year period... It's worth a lot?

>creating currency
>but also communism

What did he mean by this?

if you decided to dig the garden of that house with a spoon it would take several weeks of labor making it worth more than the eye surgery i could perform in a few hours

flip coins or number magic

But that's wrong baka. You are thinking of fiat currency. And because you buy everything in fiat currency your brain is getting them confused. Only time value of a good is different from value of labour used to create it is the short run where you can't tell the seller to fuck off and go make it yourself.

Your not actually using burgers as currency. Just as a unit of account.

so how do you quantify the amount of labor?

Labour hours.

But the amount of Labour times the value of said Labour already factored into the sale price of a good...

...

do you know how quick an opthamoligist can do a cataract surgery? are you saying thats worth less than a guy digging a hole for an hour?

The guy collecting trolleys for 2hrs at the local supermarket (if such at thing exists) is worth more than the guy doing the 40min root canal on you?

How can you not see such a system creating ridiculous inefficiency as people inflate their hours to get more pay? or is it gulag time for those who dont perform under a certain time thus causing inefficiency along with poor quality work?

i think is on the money mate

>LAUGHING WESTERN ANIME IMAGE

u got me.

So if I'm really good at a task and can do it twice as quickly as others, what rewards or incentives do I get?

I don't think you understand. No one is getting paid. You are deciding what to produce based on these values. And every hour of skilled labour is discounted by the hours you has to pay in the past to gain those skills.

Let's say it takes 400 hours to become a doctor. You factor that into your model when you decide to spend resources on training more doctors or using doctors to dig holes.

>jack comes to mow your lawn
>says he can do it in 1hr
>thatll be $20

>john comes to mow your lawn
>says he can do it in 2hrs
>thatll be $40

Can anyone please explain this to me?

Literally nothing because just like real life your efficiency only matters if you are efficient at something that matters.

If your just dropping the average time to build a car in the factory by 1/100000th of an hour why should I give a fuck.

Best case scenario you get a new job training people to do your job. Which is how it works in capitalism right now.

communism produces no incentive; with no incentive, there is no growth in society because everyone would like to take the easy way out; why open a business when you can work in one and have equal everything?

>world burns

>How would a communist economy determine the value of goods or services?


The main barometer is scarcity. Scarcity always outstrips demand.

>You factor that into your model when you decide to spend resources on training more doctors or using doctors to dig holes.
so you're saying that there's an authoritarian government telling each individual what they must do, and this system is supposed to be spread out across millions of people?
Hmm, I feel like I've seen this somewhere before and it didn't turn out so great...

no need to
commies produce exactly jack shit

>A coal miner is equal to a CEO in relation to how much they're worth

In fantasyland. This has never happened under any communist regime and never will.

Gibs

You mean the millions of people who work for the federal government? Yeah it's pretty much just as bad as large corporations. It's almost like people are always gonna be lazy and the more distance between them and the person holding the whip is gonna override every other factor.

>so you're saying that there's an authoritarian government telling each individual what they must do


That's real freedom and democracy, bro. Deal with it.

Because you are not a business you can dictate the amount given. Instead of that you could say 40$ for the whole yard. That way each gets the pay for finishing. And the faster guy can relax or go mow another lawn for money.

>Literally nothing
so why would anyone look to be efficient? Why would anyone do anything but be slow? Why dig a hole with a truck when you do can do it with a spoon? Why carry two metal rods from the factory when you can just carry one?

Do you not see how this ends?

see

>government as bad as corporations
I don't recall the last time I saw McDonalds sending out death squads to buy their new McChicken.

>So if I'm really good at a task and can do it twice as quickly as others, what rewards or incentives do I get?

You get the job and the other guy digs ditches.

but my amount of pay is tied to my labor though, there is no reward for efficiency apparently

Sadly, our nowadays economic system isn't too far removed from communism, and we manage to adept wages to cost of living - it's really the same the other way around.

For easy jobs like that people use payment=work. This means 40$ for the yard regardless of time. You knowingly applied this to a situation that the system isn't used trying to criticize it. Well tough luck, we have a system for that as well.

Here you go OP

>You get the job and the other guy digs ditches.
No you get the job and the other guy dies in a gulag.

>Do you not see how this ends?

You don't understand the superior ethics and intelligence bequeathed by birth to the proletariat supermen. They are immune from human nature.

Arbitrarily

well can you explain how the system differentiates between the labor of digging holes and brain surgery?

>but my amount of pay is tied to my labor though, there is no reward for efficiency apparently

I just said you have more time do you could use it for relaxation or to find more work. So let's say it takes a man 20min to mow a lawn and it takes you 10min. If you could find another job, that paid the same and also took 10min you would earn double compared to the man who took 20min for the lawn.

>This means 40$ for the yard regardless of time.

Exactly. Let the market decide. Dat's good comminism at work.

goods and services don't have a monetary value in communism
everything that is produced in communism is destined to satisfy a need, not to be weighted against other things. the idea of "value" is simply meaningless

the other guy was digging the ditch to which he would be buried. Efficiency thy name is communism

Waiting in line to get the goods, duh

>If you could find another job, that paid the same and also took 10min you would earn double compared to the man who took 20min for the lawn.

Capitalism works!

The price is set by the hospital or surgeon in some cases. As hourly would not reflect the risks that could extend the surgery, so using hourly wage is impractical.

They set the hourly work for holes. If you do next to nothing or don't work hard. You're fired and someone who will is hired.

so essentially i can work and get paid based on my productivity? And what happens when people want their lawns mowed quickly and i get more business than the slow man? What happens when he becomes so inefficient compared to me and my team that he cant find work elsewhere?

Why does this sound like a free market system where we compete on price and service?

>the idea of "value" is simply meaningless


And you believe that would actually happen? Magic.

it feels like hes gone from communist price controls to a free market system. Im bloody confused

>If you do next to nothing or don't work hard. You're fired and someone who will is hired
kek, i wonder where they end up when they dont work hard to the level decreed by the ruling party

Thus communism doesn't work.

I can't tell if your being sarcastic. Communism doesn't have a market. It has a government that controls everything independent of the people.

>Party members are suddenly going to give up their limos and hotels and join the proles in the fields and somehow the whole system is going to keep going along without a hitch.


Yeah, just like every time communism has been implemented :^)

By having their capitalist neighbor tell them how much everything is worth and then having the same neighbor tell them their currency is worthless.

>The price is set by the hospital or surgeon in some cases. As hourly would not reflect the risks that could extend the surgery, so using hourly wage is impractical.


So exactly the way medical prices are set right now under capitalism.

First off because if you don't do your job you get fired. If you do it really slow your manager gets fired.

If you get fired you get put into extra labour. Extra labour means we send you to do ditch digging. Everyone who is more useful is moved somewhere else. And you are at the back of the line for new training because you don't follow orders so it's risky to waste resources training you.

It's like if you show up late everyday except when you get fired you can't fuck off to a new job where the boss doesn't know you are scum.

If you can't work as good as someone else your obsolete. In communism it kills you. In Capitalist governments you get welfare.

>if only we had a medium exchange to expedite all this trade

Really made me think about thoughts.

>I can't tell if your being sarcastic. Communism doesn't have a market.

Bullshit, you retarded simpleton. If everyone is paid a flat rate for services that's the market rate.

Sadly instead of letting those people better themselves and work harder we let them leach through welfare.

COMRADE NO!

>Communism
>a state
It's another user hasn't ever looked up the definition of Communism episode

I was just answering somebody's question man.

>If you can't work as good as someone else your obsolete. In communism it kills you.


Wow. Communism is even more capitalistic than capitalism.

I don't know why you guys are lambasting it. It's how auto mechanics are paid, it's called flag rate.

it's another user hasn't opened up a history textbook episode

The flat rate should only apply to the same job. Not all jobs.

>The flat rate should only apply to the same job. Not all jobs.

Just like free markets.

No it doesn't. Jesus Christ just take the 10 seconds to look up the definition of Communism. What you're referring to is central planning and that only exist in State Socialism and State Capitalism, and even then it's not required for either or those to be statist.

you survey the utility maximizing consumption, then proceed to produce amount that maximizes social welfare. easy.
this way you fulfill actual preferences, not certainly equivalent that money presents

No wonder they always do a shitty job then

;)

Gulags, my favourite. Here we have the communist who at least embraces the system he loves. He doesnt dodge the questions about forced labor camps and prison torture. He accepts that it is part of the system. He knows to keep it running he will have to send millions to icy prison camps to shovel shit all day. He accepts it and because of this i can at least respect him somewhat as a mean who sees the truth of the ideology he supports rather than the other commies who remain adamant that it will not come to such a thing.

Your honesty is nice to see. Even if it is on an absolutely disgusting topic.

I never understood why would communists ever want their labor value theory to be implemented, since value of the labor of a communist is always zero.

Well it happened that way. What else am I supposed to say.

>communism has never been tried

That's my flag your posting with, faggot.

>How would a communist economy determine the value of goods or services?

The value or the price?

Value is energy spent + material cost, duh

>What else am I supposed to say.

Start and finish all your sentences with the word derp.

i think the thing we would like to know is how do you reach the state of communism without the evil transition period of the all controlling state? How else do you propose one reaches the nirvana of a communist state from our current capitalist enslavement?

Could it be that the only way to reach this unattainable heaven is through an all controlling state acting as an intermediary towards it and thats why practically every attempt towards it has resulted in the shit we saw last century?

Im genuinely curious, please do explain how people are to attain this state of communism.

Yeah free markets are only able to be achieved by capitalism. Free Market: an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.

Communism: a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.

Publicly owned goes against the free market.

Supply and demand curves aren't straight lines

Now if only capitalists would admit that their system requires people to starve in the street.